Are you satisfied with Stan Heath?

[r-neezy]

They still had winning teams. The only season that he missed a post season tourney was the year that he got fired. Also, he did win the SEC touney with a team that was not as talented as the ones with MayDay or Scotty and Corliss. From 96-to 02, he only had one losing season.

They may have had a winning record those years, but I think that was at the expense of the Texas Southern's of college basketball, what I remember is getting hammered year in and year out by Ole Miss with a roster full of Arkansas boys.

Very true, I remember that little 5-5 guy out of Little Rock (i cant remember his name). He always seem to have good games against the Hogs. But when I watched him play against other teams, he kinda struggled.

[HawgAdvocate]

So you are pleased with the last few years?  I'm not praising Nolan but Eddie did leave the cupboard bare for him and Heath has had longer than Nolan to get it going and has produced not even close to the same results.  If nothing changes, nuthin changes!  Get used to just being happy making it to the dance and watching BWA half filled.

I'm pleased with the improvement from year to year...you cant count the first two years cause we were terrible. We had little to nothing. The thrid year we finally recruited some size. Of course they aren't world-beaters, but we've gotten better every year. And everyone was loving us until last night.

One game.

And now people are throwing their arms in the air and saying "I've had it."

It's like you weren't even fans in the first place.

[HogNuttz]

Does Stan know how to google?  I googled how to break a press and found decent diagrams.

[HawgAdvocate]

In year 5 at a program with this much tradition that shouldn't be EXPECTED!!  Heath is the coach, he's responsible for this.  We lost to a 1st year coach with average talent by 22!!   Are you really happy with Heath?  Last year we underachieved losing to less talented teams like Bucknell, Ole Miss, and MSU.

What's our record again? Did we not win the Old Spice Classic? have we not been the talk of the college basketball world so early in the season? One game guys...one friggin game against a team that obviously wanted it more than we did.

Look at the posts leading up to last nights game. A lot of folks expected us to lose. Does 4 games in a week, all away from home, mean nothing to some of you?

[H-O-double g]

We didn't match up well with Missouri's frantic pace. You all knew before last night that Missouri would want this more than we would. It also doesn't hurt to point out that this was our 4th game in a week.

We don't have quality experience at guard. Ervin let us down by not slowing the pace and running a half-court offense. We only have so many time outs we can call and reset the plan. Heath can't go on the floor and take control of the game himself, posession by posession.

One game doesn't make or break a season. No matter what the sport. It's simply amazing how so many can jump on and off the bandwagon in a matter of hours.

Shame on you. I honestly dont think many of you played sports growing up. Losing is part of the game. Our guards are young and have less than a year of chemistry working together. We played damn well against three totally different styles in 3 days last week. Give it some time. Everyone has predicted us to look good by SEC season. You can't start calling for Heath's head when he's replaced his top 3 guards this quickly and exceeded expectations so early in the season.

Some of these posts I've read over the past 12 hours have made my jaw drop.

So you are pleased with the last few years?  I'm not praising Nolan but Eddie did leave the cupboard bare for him and Heath has had longer than Nolan to get it going and has produced not even close to the same results.  If nothing changes, nuthin changes!  Get used to just being happy making it to the dance and watching BWA half filled.

When comparing Nolan/Heath's first 4 years, Nolan got one NCAA tournament victory and that took him his 4th season to get that. It's not like Nolan's results in his first seasons blew Heath's out of the water or anything.

[r-neezy]

I am not calling for Heath to go. But I think they should have had more of an effort to get the ball inside to Townes. They did do a better job of getting Townes involved in the early part of the 2nd half.  I think that Heath should have made sure that would try slow down once they crossed half court and run some offense. But I seen quick shot after quick shot. That was helping to play in anderson's hands.

[HogNuttz]

What's our record again? Did we not win the Old Spice Classic?
Who exactly played in that?

have we not been the talk of the college basketball world so early in the season?
Umm......no.

One game guys...one friggin game against a team that obviously wanted it more than we did.
Our guys didn't want it at all.


Look at the posts leading up to last nights game. A lot of folks expected us to lose.
Who expected us to lose by 20+?

Does 4 games in a week, all away from home, mean nothing to some of you?
Sure, we weren't playing at home, but it's not as if we were playing stiff competition on their court either.

[H-O-double g]

I know people think that Nolan stopped recruiting, but he did have some Talent coming in before he got fired. JJ Sullinger transferred after Nolan was let go. I thought he was a decent player. He had Andre Igodoula coming in, but he opted to go to Arizona after the firing. Please remember that Jonathan Modica was Nolan's recruit. But he wanted to be a razorback so bad that he decided to come anyway. And I think Heath messed up his Jr year by giving Olu Famatimi more minutes.  Also, Joe Johnson leaving after his sophmore year didnt help matters. Rumors were that his grades just werent good enough to help influence the decision. I dont know how true it is, but thats what I heard.  Could anyone imagine how incredible Ronnie Brewer would have been if he had been in Nolan's style. Brewer was good anyway, but he would have really been awesome. 

Last but not least, those violations that never came out to be true. He was hurt by those as well. But I give Nolan a lot of credit. At least he didnt ask for a two year pass like Nutt did. Maybe he should have asked for one.

I think Nolan did recieve about a 5-6 year pass from like '96 to '02.  And Igoudala?  He played 1-2 seasons at Arizona and hooked it up to the NBA, he wouldn't have been a force for very long.

If Nolan stayed, we never would have gotten Ronnie Brewer......I'd rather had had Brewer for 3 years than Igoudala for two seasons.

[Choctaw Hog]

YES! 

[spudhog]

We didn't match up well with Missouri's frantic pace. You all knew before last night that Missouri would want this more than we would. It also doesn't hurt to point out that this was our 4th game in a week.

We don't have quality experience at guard. Ervin let us down by not slowing the pace and running a half-court offense. We only have so many time outs we can call and reset the plan. Heath can't go on the floor and take control of the game himself, posession by posession.

One game doesn't make or break a season. No matter what the sport. It's simply amazing how so many can jump on and off the bandwagon in a matter of hours.

Shame on you. I honestly dont think many of you played sports growing up. Losing is part of the game. Our guards are young and have less than a year of chemistry working together. We played damn well against three totally different styles in 3 days last week. Give it some time. Everyone has predicted us to look good by SEC season. You can't start calling for Heath's head when he's replaced his top 3 guards this quickly and exceeded expectations so early in the season.

Some of these posts I've read over the past 12 hours have made my jaw drop.

why? 86-64 loss to a coach we should've taken. that's why.

[Hong Kong Sooey]

For me it is simple.  Year five is make or break.  Stan was not the best man for the job, but he is what we have.  He has had ample time to put his system in, and has a full complement of his players.  If he doesn't make a good run in the tourney (Sweet 16 or a hack of a reason why not), then he needs to be fired.  They Hogs looked pretty good against three probable tourney teams last weekend.  SIU will be by far the best half court D we see this season.  Missouri was crazy fired up, and kudos go to Mike for that (I wish we could have hired him, but I believe we needed a clean break).  Stan couldn't match the intensity.  Add inexperienced guard play to that, mix in a unhealthy dose of Vincent Hunter, and we have a recipe for an arse whoopin'. 

Remember this, Stan doesn't have the political pull Houston does.  If he doesn't produce this year he will be gone.

[hoghiker]

I'm new here so I'll go easy.Heath is a nice guy. Probably a great dad.We are five years into his gig. His Kent State experience was something nice to put on the resume' and not much else. He should never, and I mean never, have been hired in the first place. He didn't have the experience. Nothing that has happened in the last five years looks like victory. You want to know what a guy can do: look at his past. It will be a reflection into his future. He wasn't the best guy available when he came in. He doesn't appear to command the respect of his players. This is a grievous fault. It can not be overcome. I like the guy. He says the right thing, but in the end he just doesn't deliver the goods. Last year should have been the end. A contract extension was crazy. I think daddy frank has lost his touch. That's another story. Heath's story is short and brief. Kent State did well in one NCAA year. Period. Waiting on the next guy. Nolan  and Eddie did it betterand faster . That's the standard. It ain't being meet.

[r-neezy]

I know people think that Nolan stopped recruiting, but he did have some Talent coming in before he got fired. JJ Sullinger transferred after Nolan was let go. I thought he was a decent player. He had Andre Igodoula coming in, but he opted to go to Arizona after the firing. Please remember that Jonathan Modica was Nolan's recruit. But he wanted to be a razorback so bad that he decided to come anyway. And I think Heath messed up his Jr year by giving Olu Famatimi more minutes.  Also, Joe Johnson leaving after his sophmore year didnt help matters. Rumors were that his grades just werent good enough to help influence the decision. I dont know how true it is, but thats what I heard.  Could anyone imagine how incredible Ronnie Brewer would have been if he had been in Nolan's style. Brewer was good anyway, but he would have really been awesome. 

Last but not least, those violations that never came out to be true. He was hurt by those as well. But I give Nolan a lot of credit. At least he didnt ask for a two year pass like Nutt did. Maybe he should have asked for one.

I think Nolan did recieve about a 5-6 year pass from like '96 to '02.  And Igoudala?  He played 1-2 seasons at Arizona and hooked it up to the NBA, he wouldn't have been a force for very long.

If Nolan stayed, we never would have gotten Ronnie Brewer......I'd rather had had Brewer for 3 years than Igoudala for two seasons.

You may have a point. I think Nolan always had a thing against recruiting the hometown guy. He didnt want to feel any pressure from the local media and local fans to play that person, the regardless if he was any good or not. (I.E. Nutt decision to play Mustain- I am not saying that Mustain should not be playing, but I think you get the overall picture of what I am saying)

[Jimbo]

Our problem with Heath, let me see, his record since he has been here comes to mind.

[WILL CLINTON]

I know people think that Nolan stopped recruiting, but he did have some Talent coming in before he got fired. JJ Sullinger transferred after Nolan was let go. I thought he was a decent player. He had Andre Igodoula coming in, but he opted to go to Arizona after the firing. Please remember that Jonathan Modica was Nolan's recruit. But he wanted to be a razorback so bad that he decided to come anyway. And I think Heath messed up his Jr year by giving Olu Famatimi more minutes.  Also, Joe Johnson leaving after his sophmore year didnt help matters. Rumors were that his grades just werent good enough to help influence the decision. I dont know how true it is, but thats what I heard.  Could anyone imagine how incredible Ronnie Brewer would have been if he had been in Nolan's style. Brewer was good anyway, but he would have really been awesome. 

Last but not least, those violations that never came out to be true. He was hurt by those as well. But I give Nolan a lot of credit. At least he didnt ask for a two year pass like Nutt did. Maybe he should have asked for one.

I think Nolan did recieve about a 5-6 year pass from like '96 to '02.  And Igoudala?  He played 1-2 seasons at Arizona and hooked it up to the NBA, he wouldn't have been a force for very long.

If Nolan stayed, we never would have gotten Ronnie Brewer......I'd rather had had Brewer for 3 years than Igoudala for two seasons.

Are you crazy??  You have got to be kidding.  Brewer for 4 years wouldn't have been better than Iguodala for 2. 

I'll never understand the man crush on Brewer.  He was a good player, but geez...

[hogfan064]

In year 1 Mike Anderson made year 5 coach Stan Heath look like a fool.  We weren't even competetive in this game.  This isn't the first time we've seen Heath lose to a less talented team on the road.

Would we have lost like this last year? No, we wouldn't. We had experienced guards last year. Before last night we'd beaten Mizzou for 7 years strait. Streaks dont go on forever.

So you're saying last year's team is better than this years?  If that's the case we're NIT bound.  I'm sorry I'm not happy with being in the NIT with a program that is #9 alltime in NCAA tourney appearances!!

[Pork Twain]

For me it is simple.  Year five is make or break.  Stan was not the best man for the job, but he is what we have.  He has had ample time to put his system in, and has a full complement of his players.  If he doesn't make a good run in the tourney (Sweet 16 or a hack of a reason why not), then he needs to be fired.  They Hogs looked pretty good against three probable tourney teams last weekend.  SIU will be by far the best half court D we see this season.  Missouri was crazy fired up, and kudos go to Mike for that (I wish we could have hired him, but I believe we needed a clean break).  Stan couldn't match the intensity.  Add inexperienced guard play to that, mix in a unhealthy dose of Vincent Hunter, and we have a recipe for an arse whoopin'. 

Remember this, Stan doesn't have the political pull Houston does.  If he doesn't produce this year he will be gone.

I agree with your assessment.  His system is in place, whatever that may be, and he has his players.  So there is no longer an excuse to lose.

[Pork Twain]

I know people think that Nolan stopped recruiting, but he did have some Talent coming in before he got fired. JJ Sullinger transferred after Nolan was let go. I thought he was a decent player. He had Andre Igodoula coming in, but he opted to go to Arizona after the firing. Please remember that Jonathan Modica was Nolan's recruit. But he wanted to be a razorback so bad that he decided to come anyway. And I think Heath messed up his Jr year by giving Olu Famatimi more minutes.  Also, Joe Johnson leaving after his sophmore year didnt help matters. Rumors were that his grades just werent good enough to help influence the decision. I dont know how true it is, but thats what I heard.  Could anyone imagine how incredible Ronnie Brewer would have been if he had been in Nolan's style. Brewer was good anyway, but he would have really been awesome. 

Last but not least, those violations that never came out to be true. He was hurt by those as well. But I give Nolan a lot of credit. At least he didnt ask for a two year pass like Nutt did. Maybe he should have asked for one.

I think Nolan did recieve about a 5-6 year pass from like '96 to '02.  And Igoudala?  He played 1-2 seasons at Arizona and hooked it up to the NBA, he wouldn't have been a force for very long.

If Nolan stayed, we never would have gotten Ronnie Brewer......I'd rather had had Brewer for 3 years than Igoudala for two seasons.

You may have a point. I think Nolan always had a thing against recruiting the hometown guy. He didnt want to feel any pressure from the local media and local fans to play that person, the regardless if he was any good or not. (I.E. Nutt decision to play Mustain- I am not saying that Mustain should not be playing, but I think you get the overall picture of what I am saying)

Big Nasty???

[hogfan064]

In year 5 at a program with this much tradition that shouldn't be EXPECTED!!  Heath is the coach, he's responsible for this.  We lost to a 1st year coach with average talent by 22!!   Are you really happy with Heath?  Last year we underachieved losing to less talented teams like Bucknell, Ole Miss, and MSU.

What's our record again? Did we not win the Old Spice Classic? have we not been the talk of the college basketball world so early in the season? One game guys...one friggin game against a team that obviously wanted it more than we did.

Look at the posts leading up to last nights game. A lot of folks expected us to lose. Does 4 games in a week, all away from home, mean nothing to some of you?

We beat Southern Illinois, a good midmajor team, but a team most every top program should beat.  We beat a WVU team that probably won't finish in the top 10 of the Big East and we beat Marist.  All of that is good, but you got to follow it up nicely with a road win over an average team.  Instead we're blown out.

[Hong Kong Sooey]

For me it is simple.  Year five is make or break.  Stan was not the best man for the job, but he is what we have.  He has had ample time to put his system in, and has a full complement of his players.  If he doesn't make a good run in the tourney (Sweet 16 or a hack of a reason why not), then he needs to be fired.  They Hogs looked pretty good against three probable tourney teams last weekend.  SIU will be by far the best half court D we see this season.  Missouri was crazy fired up, and kudos go to Mike for that (I wish we could have hired him, but I believe we needed a clean break).  Stan couldn't match the intensity.  Add inexperienced guard play to that, mix in a unhealthy dose of Vincent Hunter, and we have a recipe for an arse whoopin'. 

Remember this, Stan doesn't have the political pull Houston does.  If he doesn't produce this year he will be gone.

I agree with your assessment.  His system is in place, whatever that may be, and he has his players.  So there is no longer an excuse to lose.

Stan needs to "git r dun" or just "git".  I think the PTB agrees.

[Die Hard Hog]

Some people just like to bitch and gripe.  Its one freakin game.  It is funny to me how unrealistic some people's expectations are.  The last team to go undefeated in a season was Indiana in the mid 70's, but some people on here expect it every year.  Any yes, the head coach does bare some responsibility when his team plays poorly, but I am pretty sure that his players have to execute and make good decisions while on the floor.  Like it or not, they do have a young back court, they do have a point guard that sat out last year, that was their first game on the road against a pressing team.  They will get better and this game will help them.  Coaching is not as easy as some of you think.  You can preach and preach and preach certain things, but the players have to execute it.  That is where experience is priceless.  

[Ahenso]

What's our record again? Did we not win the Old Spice Classic? have we not been the talk of the college basketball world so early in the season? One game guys...one friggin game against a team that obviously wanted it more than we did.

Look at the posts leading up to last nights game. A lot of folks expected us to lose. Does 4 games in a week, all away from home, mean nothing to some of you?
[/quote]

No, the talk of the college basketball world has been Butler....
11/10 at Tulane W 77-37
11/13 at N Dame W 71-69
11/14 Indiana W 60-55
11/18 University of Illino W 62-56
11/22 at #21 Tennessee W 56-44
11/24 #23 Gonzaga W 79-71
11/25 Kent St W 83-80
11/29 at Valparaiso W 60-47

I dont  care if we lose but to lose by that much to Mizzou is unacceptable, i can handle getting beat but not that. We haven't ran a true motion offense in 5 years, just stand around and turnovers is what stan heaths teams have looked like.

[HawgAdvocate]

And it didn't look like Stan bothered to pratice breaking a press last week. Dykes' diagram of the gut cut to break a press is the one of first things taught.  Our college team didn't run even try or run this effectivly until Mizzouri already had our lunch.

You really think these kids have never played against a press in their life? Do you realize how much basketball they've played since they were 10 years old? AAU, high school junior high, camps, etc. Do you think Stan has to teach them all over again as if they've never seen one? It's one thing to practice, it's another to execute on the road.

Maybe they didn't have 4 games in a week, but this is the first time they have played a "decent" team.  They should have been the ones making stupid mistakes, not us.

Bull crap. Southern Illinois and Marist are both picked to win their conferences. It's called home court advantage for a reason.

And whose fault is that, not Heaths?
Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we had to had the most perfectly balanced team from year one. Recruiting isn't an exact science. Did we plan for Hunter to break a collarbone and redshirt? Did we plan for Kendrick Davis to transfer? Did we plan for Brewer to take advantage of the new NBA draft rule? Did we plan for Olu to leave early so foolishly?

Maybe the coach should have told him this.  I bet he didn't
You can bet all day long, but that won't prove otherwise.

True it is only one gamelent? , but we lost by 20 to a team we have beaten 2 years in a row.  Not to mention, the Dykes' doesn't even think Missouri has UAB type talent right now.
Talent doesn't always win out. Have we not ever upset teams with more talent? We destroyed a much more talented Kentucky team, using the press, on the way to winning the SEC tourney in 2001. Was that one game reason to fire Tubby?

Chemistry doesn't equal 20 points.
Actually it usually means more than 20. If you don't know your team, and can't communicate with them, how can you ever be on the same page for 40 minutes?

They were wrong.
And you're basing this on one game? The 4th game in a week away from home? Great insight. When you take over on ESPN giving analysis, let me know.

We won last year on talent.  Heath has shown a lack of coaching ability the last few years.  Our zone offense is a perfect illustration.
So why won't let this backcourt gel? We've seen that they make more free throws, rebound more, hit more treys, and play better defense 95% of the time. Why jump ship after 6 games, when only one didnt end like you wanted it to?

[r-neezy]

I know people think that Nolan stopped recruiting, but he did have some Talent coming in before he got fired. JJ Sullinger transferred after Nolan was let go. I thought he was a decent player. He had Andre Igodoula coming in, but he opted to go to Arizona after the firing. Please remember that Jonathan Modica was Nolan's recruit. But he wanted to be a razorback so bad that he decided to come anyway. And I think Heath messed up his Jr year by giving Olu Famatimi more minutes.  Also, Joe Johnson leaving after his sophmore year didnt help matters. Rumors were that his grades just werent good enough to help influence the decision. I dont know how true it is, but thats what I heard.  Could anyone imagine how incredible Ronnie Brewer would have been if he had been in Nolan's style. Brewer was good anyway, but he would have really been awesome. 

Last but not least, those violations that never came out to be true. He was hurt by those as well. But I give Nolan a lot of credit. At least he didnt ask for a two year pass like Nutt did. Maybe he should have asked for one.

I think Nolan did recieve about a 5-6 year pass from like '96 to '02.  And Igoudala?  He played 1-2 seasons at Arizona and hooked it up to the NBA, he wouldn't have been a force for very long.

If Nolan stayed, we never would have gotten Ronnie Brewer......I'd rather had had Brewer for 3 years than Igoudala for two seasons.

You may have a point. I think Nolan always had a thing against recruiting the hometown guy. He didnt want to feel any pressure from the local media and local fans to play that person, the regardless if he was any good or not. (I.E. Nutt decision to play Mustain- I am not saying that Mustain should not be playing, but I think you get the overall picture of what I am saying)

Big Nasty???

I didnt include that becuase I really dont consider Russellville as Nw Arkansas. Everyone else calls it the river valley. But you make an excellent point though

[3kgthog]

What makes Mizzou less talented? They had that white boy that could flat out stroke the 3. Their little guard lit us up for something like 20 pts. I'd take either one of those over Ervin. But, it's still disheartening to know that this is the same Mizzou team we've handled easily for the last few meetings and last night we get blown out in an arena with a crowd of about 5,000.

[HawgAdvocate]

Who exactly played in that?
Three teams that are one year removed from the NCAA tourney. Two of which are picked to win their conference this year. The other two are a Big East school and a Big 10 school.

Umm......no.
You need to go check out ESPN.com and CBSsportsline.com. We've been profiled all week long as a team exceeding expectations.

Our guys didn't want it at all.
If you honestly think that, then why do they even play the game in the first place? Why have they played the game their whole lives? Why have they playe so hard all year long? You make no sense with that comment.

Who expected us to lose by 20+?
Quite a few thought we'd get rolled on. Biggus Piggus comes to mind right off the bat.

Sure, we weren't playing at home, but it's not as if we were playing stiff competition on their court either.
See the answer to the first question. Why you're trying to say that 2 teams predicted to win their conference aren't stiff competition tells me you don't know much about basketball and how vital chemistry is.

[Pork Twain]

Who exactly played in that?
Three teams that are one year removed from the NCAA tourney. Two of which are picked to win their conference this year. The other two are a Big East school and a Big 10 school.

Umm......no.
You need to go check out ESPN.com and CBSsportsline.com. We've been profiled all week long as a team exceeding expectations.

Our guys didn't want it at all.
If you honestly think that, then why do they even play the game in the first place? Why have they played the game their whole lives? Why have they playe so hard all year long? You make no sense with that comment.

Who expected us to lose by 20+?
Quite a few thought we'd get rolled on. Biggus Piggus comes to mind right off the bat.

Sure, we weren't playing at home, but it's not as if we were playing stiff competition on their court either.
See the answer to the first question. Why you're trying to say that 2 teams predicted to win their conference aren't stiff competition tells me you don't know much about basketball and how vital chemistry is.

I can only hope that all of your defense of the Hogs and Stan are spot on.  I want him to succeed but I haven't felt good about his coaching style since he arrived.

[HawgAdvocate]

I just think it's way to early to jump ship or pass negative judgement. If we had lost both games in the Old Spice Classic like Minnesota did, then I might think differently.

We've played well in the heavy majority of our games. Basketball is all about matchups. We didnt matchup well against them. But like I said, we've played 4 road games in one week. That rarely happens. These guys have been flying all over the Southern map, trying to balance upcoming finals, and keeping focused on what they knew to be Coach Heaths biggest game.

They dropped the ball. But it isn't enough to crucify Heath. He's done a great job against better teams this year. Hell, LSU has lost to a team worse than Mizzou. Does that mean they'll have a sorry season? Of course not.

[Die Hard Hog]

I couldn't agree more Hawgadvocate.  Too many people think they know everything.  Ok to be upset when the Hogs lose, but why attack the coach every freakin time?  I guess Stan wasn't holding his mouth just right last night, if so we no doubt would have won.  

[Kevin]

i am not going to get bent out of shape over one game, it is a marathon BUT

can stan not recruit a point guard? we have not had a true one since he has been here.  that is what i will blame him for right now.

[btaylor2404]

LORD NO!  Still pissed we did not hire Mike Anderson.  The bottom line for me, wins and losses aside is that we are no fun to watch, at all!

[Hong Kong Sooey]

I couldn't agree more Hawgadvocate.  Too many people think they know everything.  Ok to be upset when the Hogs lose, but why attack the coach every freakin time?  I guess Stan wasn't holding his mouth just right last night, if so we no doubt would have won.  

While I also think it is too soon to start wailing and gnashing of teeth, Stan IS to blame for the way his team played last night.  He didn't have them prepared to beat the pressure.  It is very likely that he didn't understand exactly what he was walking into last night, but that is no excuse.  He needs to use this and build a better team from it.  After he runs those boys until they drop.  It's amazing how much more receptive basketball players become when they are stepping on their tongues.

[HawgAdvocate]

A lot of folks thought we'd never get any big men in here after Nolan's preferred style of play. But we did. We've got more big men then we need in my opinion, but oh well. Ervin is a good PG. he has a high amount of TOs, but that's expected when you handle the rock 90% of the time. Go check out the NBA site. Look at the box scores.

Kidd usually has 4 to 6 TOs a game. Nash the same. Jamal Tinsely averages 6 dimes a game and half as many TOs. PGs are going to turn the ball over.

We'll get a PG. We might not get a top 10 PG, but we'll get one soon enough. The scholarship numbers are out of whack. Honestly, I think we need another Juco point, after Ervin, to just try and even the numbers while still expecting to be a decent team.

[HogNuttz]

You really think these kids have never played against a press in their life? Do you realize how much basketball they've played since they were 10 years old? AAU, high school junior high, camps, etc. Do you think Stan has to teach them all over again as if they've never seen one? It's one thing to practice, it's another to execute on the road.

THEY DIDN'T EVEN ATTEMT TO EXECUTE!  There was 0 cuts to the middle in the first ten minutes, and no one, I mean not once the whole game, did someone from the back court cut to the circle (see previous post on googling for how to break a press, as well as any introductory coaching book).  This is an awsome way to break a press especially with a guy like Thomas or Weems.  I know these kids have done it for years, I'm not knocking the kids.  It's the coach that can't seem or chooses not to implement this.

]Bull crap. Southern Illinois and Marist are both picked to win their conferences. It's called home court advantage for a reason.
What conferences do they play in?  And exactly how good do those wins look now?

And whose fault is that, not Heaths?
Oh I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we had to had the most perfectly balanced team from year one. Recruiting isn't an exact science.
Most teams have at least one experienced ball handler.  Don't tell me Ervin is a ball handler.

Did we plan for Hunter to break a collarbone and redshirt?
No

Did we plan for Kendrick Davis to transfer?
Ummm......yes.  His scholarship was not renewed.

Did we plan for Brewer to take advantage of the new NBA draft rule?
What rule is that.  Jr's have been leaving early for a long time.

Did we plan for Olu to leave early so foolishly?
This isn't the first year without Olu, and how bad did that hurt us.  It's not like he was the ball handler we are missing.

You can bet all day long, but that won't prove otherwise.
OK.  How about this.  Either Heath didn't tell him, or Ervin completely disregarded his coach and should have had his a$$ on the bench.

Talent doesn't always win out. Have we not ever upset teams with more talent? We destroyed a much more talented Kentucky team, using the press, on the way to winning the SEC tourney in 2001. Was that one game reason to fire Tubby?
Does Tubby had a fat ring and a solid team every year?  Does Heath have either?

Actually it usually means more than 20. If you don't know your team, and can't communicate with them, how can you ever be on the same page for 40 minutes?
I disagree, but there is not much quantitive evidence to argue either side, so I will agree to disagree.

And you're basing this on one game? The 4th game in a week away from home? Great insight. When you take over on ESPN giving analysis, let me know.
Only if you do the same.

So why won't let this backcourt gel? We've seen that they make more free throws, rebound more, hit more treys, and play better defense 95% of the time. Why jump ship after 6 games, when only one didnt end like you wanted it to?
First off, I was off the ship last year.  Even though we were decent and I supported them, any success we had was not through great coaching.  The fact that our backcourt is rebounding better is just a knock on our big men.  Although I think our rebounding, specifically our boxing out the oppostion, has looked much better so far.

[OneLardAlmighty]

I don't think we would be.  What does that say about Stan?  

No.  Because by now he would probably have retired in a state of grace and Mike Anderson would be our coach. 

But even if not, Stan Heath is not half the coach that Nolan Richardson was.   

[Razorzac]

He has his players, he has everything he is asked for and we are just the same old bubble team. We were run out of the gym last night by a team that had less talent on the court than us, but were better coached.

[hogfan064]

A lot of folks thought we'd never get any big men in here after Nolan's preferred style of play. But we did. We've got more big men then we need in my opinion, but oh well. Ervin is a good PG. he has a high amount of TOs, but that's expected when you handle the rock 90% of the time. Go check out the NBA site. Look at the box scores.

Kidd usually has 4 to 6 TOs a game. Nash the same. Jamal Tinsely averages 6 dimes a game and half as many TOs. PGs are going to turn the ball over.

We'll get a PG. We might not get a top 10 PG, but we'll get one soon enough. The scholarship numbers are out of whack. Honestly, I think we need another Juco point, after Ervin, to just try and even the numbers while still expecting to be a decent team.

How many years does it take to get a good PG?  Heath has had 5 years to get one. 

[Hong Kong Sooey]

You know, you guys can keep having your pissing contest or you could realize both of you are right in some areas.  This also means you are both wrong in some areas, of course.  The fact is, Nolan left the cupboard bare as a bone.  The other fact is, in year five Stan has had enough time to install his system and get his players.  So lets see how the season plays out and decide at the end of it.  It's not like this is year 9...

[HogNuttz]

A lot of folks thought we'd never get any big men in here after Nolan's preferred style of play. But we did. We've got more big men then we need in my opinion, but oh well. Ervin is a good PG.
No he is not.

he has a high amount of TOs, but that's expected when you handle the rock 90% of the time. Go check out the NBA site. Look at the box scores.

Kidd usually has 4 to 6 TOs a game. Nash the same. Jamal Tinsely averages 6 dimes a game and half as many TOs. PGs are going to turn the ball over.
Kidd APG 9.2 TOPG 3 A/TO Ratio 3
Nash  APG 10.8 TOPG 3.58  A/TO Ratio 3
Ervin's A/TO Ratio was just above 1 before last night



We'll get a PG. We might not get a top 10 PG, but we'll get one soon enough. The scholarship numbers are out of whack. Honestly, I think we need another Juco point, after Ervin, to just try and even the numbers while still expecting to be a decent team.

[redsnapper]

Mike Anderson can flat coach, but his team last night looked very little like NR's last few teams here. Those last teams of Nolan did not play uptempo and rarely pressed and never ran any decent team to death like happened to us last night. Missouri will do the same thing to many, many teams this year.

[Sleepy]

We don't have quality experience at guard.

How many years do we have to wait for quality experience at guard?

[tbhogfan]

This team has a highly-recruited, junior laden frontcourt.  They have last year's National JUCO Player of the Year.

Stan has access to all sorts of game films on how great coaches (Coach K, Dean Smith, Tom Izzo) handled Mike's (Nolan's) style.

How did they attack Nolan's style? 

Here's a hint: not by having the PG jack up an off-balance shot with 25 seconds left on the clock without a big even touching the ball. 

Here's another hint: control the tempo with ball movement and execution.

There is no sugarcoating last night.  It was a travesty, and the coaching staff was woefully and unacceptably unprepared for what they should have known was coming.

[HawgAdvocate]

Hognuttz, listen..you can say they didn't even try to execute. You know that isn't true. You can google all the diagrams you want. But practice is practive is practice..it isn't execution. That's been my point. Ervin didn't slow the game down. Weems and Beverley didnt try either. They tried to run when they should have slowed. But it's ONE GAME. ONE. UNO. Have you not watched our other 5?

What does it matter what conference they play in? What conference dos Gonzaga play in? What about Bucknell? The point is they are good teams. They are cohesive units. You can't win every game. Have you never had a bad day? You say you've played ball. Have you never been schooled? Did you say, "That's it. We suck. We should fire the coach," after one bad game? Be reasonable.

Irvin is a ball handler. His PG play led us to wins over 3 good teams. Did you not hear Jimmy Dykes hyping him before the game? I dont know why I'm having to repeat myself over and over. ONE BAD GAME. ONE. Five good games....one bad game. See a difference here?

Kendrick Davis left on his own accord. He was not happy with his PT. He knew he was being bumped in favor of Ronnie and Olu. Why do you think we wasted a schollie on Dontell Jefferson so late? it isn't as if we were trying to fit Al in the mix. We had schollies available.

The rule forcing high school kids like Greg Oden and Kevin Durant be one year removed from high school before they could enter the draft is what gave Ronnie the best possible draft position and the largest amount of guaranteed money. You can claim Ronnie wanted to leave early all you want, but your opinion wont trump sound economic reasoning.

Olu's skill arent being questioned. You said it was Heath's fault we didn't have more experinced guards. When you're recruiting months in advance, scouting players from all over, you can't simply see a guy like Olu leaving early, then make a quick phone call and sign some guy you didn't want just to fill a spot for 4 years. Besides, McCurdy was a good PG from an elite high school team. I'm guessing Heath counted on getting more from him. But him breaking his foot his senior year wasn't in the cards either now was it?

Alright, and what if Ervin was benched? Who's gonna run the PG then? What gives us the best chance of coming back? when you play full cout hysteria like they did..loose balls and steals don't always end up in the PGs hands...how many times did Chuck Thomas, Beverley, and Weems go full throttle without looking back to give it to Ervin?

Nope, he doesn't have a fat ring every year. But he has a solid team every year. You can't possibly question that.

You said the analysts were wrong in praising us for exceeding expectations. Sorry, I'll listen to Bilas and Katz over the average JoeFan coach hater any day.

Our free throw shooting is better. We've actually got some shooters. Ferguson and Modica weren't exactly Heath guys. Ferguson was a last minute addition to a team with no guards, especially a PG. he nearly transferred twice because he didnt want to play PG anymore. Modica was anything but a ball handler. He was a spot up shooter who rarely looked to make the extra pass. We've got a much more well-rounded backcourt now. They're thin at depth, but the overall talent is better to me.

[redsnapper]

Yes, we would have been worse because Nolan QUIT on the fans, the University and the AD. Post '95 Nolan changed and was very average.

[HawgAdvocate]

Kidd APG 9.2 TOPG 3 A/TO Ratio 3
Nash  APG 10.8 TOPG 3.58  A/TO Ratio 3
Ervin's A/TO Ratio was just above 1 before last nigh

You can't look at ratio because Ervin isn't dropping 10 dimes a game. He has no one inside to consistantly get the ball to. Look at TOs per game. How many college PGs are there with 10 dimes a game? How many SEC PGs are? The ratio is skewed.

[Macgyver Hawg]

Check to see Nolan's last couple of seasons just how many recruiting trips he went on compared to what Stan went on during the same amount of time.

Nolan 3
Stan 40

[HawgAdvocate]

How many years do we have to wait for quality experience at guard?

We had quality experience last year. We didn't have a pure PG last year, but we had plenty of experience in the backcourt.

[DeltaBoy]

We didn't match up well with Missouri's frantic pace. You all knew before last night that Missouri would want this more than we would. It also doesn't hurt to point out that this was our 4th game in a week.

We don't have quality experience at guard. Ervin let us down by not slowing the pace and running a half-court offense. We only have so many time outs we can call and reset the plan. Heath can't go on the floor and take control of the game himself, posession by posession.

One game doesn't make or break a season. No matter what the sport. It's simply amazing how so many can jump on and off the bandwagon in a matter of hours.

Shame on you. I honestly dont think many of you played sports growing up. Losing is part of the game. Our guards are young and have less than a year of chemistry working together. We played damn well against three totally different styles in 3 days last week. Give it some time. Everyone has predicted us to look good by SEC season. You can't start calling for Heath's head when he's replaced his top 3 guards this quickly and exceeded expectations so early in the season.

Some of these posts I've read over the past 12 hours have made my jaw drop.

Excuses just Excuses Stan has 5 years to build a team and Mike Anderson beats him with a patchwork team of Juco players. CAN STAN!

[wishyjoshy]

You can't look at ratio because Ervin isn't dropping 10 dimes a game. He has no one inside to consistantly get the ball to.

The fact that he doesn't drop ten dimes a game is no ones fault but his own.

He took several ill-advised shots last night on fast breaks that could have been dropped off to a big man when he penetrated.  If you take into account the bad shots by Ervin, along with the bad passes that were hard to handle, he had 10 turnovers by himself.  Honestly, I don't think he sees the floor the way a point guard does.  Don't get me wrong, I like Ervin, but he is not better than T.J. Cleveland, Jason Harrison (who we didn't need to recruit), either of the Flannigans, Charles Tatum, Eric Ferguson, etc.

The team is still searching for chemistry.  Stan wants them to run their offense through the post(s).  Doesn't matter if they score or not, he wants the defense to collapse on the post.  He feels that this breaks down the defense.  Against less athletic and talented teams, it does.  But against good defensive teams, our weakness on the block is exposed.  Hill is not an offensive threat, Townes is apathetic, and Hunter is weak.  The best post player we have? - Charles Thomas.

[HogNuttz]

Hognuttz, listen..you can say they didn't even try to execute. You know that isn't true. You can google all the diagrams you want. But practice is practive is practice..it isn't execution. That's been my point.
You're right, poor choice of words on my part.  They did try to execute, but whatever it was they were trying to execute, didn't look like a press breaking offense.

Ervin didn't slow the game down. Weems and Beverley didnt try either. They tried to run when they should have slowed. But it's ONE GAME. ONE. UNO. Have you not watched our other 5?
Did the coach not tell them to slow the half court game down?  If he didn't why not?  If he did, why didn't they?

What does it matter what conference they play in? What conference dos Gonzaga play in? What about Bucknell? The point is they are good teams. They are cohesive units. You can't win every game. Have you never had a bad day? You say you've played ball. Have you never been schooled? Did you say, "That's it. We suck. We should fire the coach," after one bad game? Be reasonable.
I had a great coach for a B class school (at the time).  High Schools don't recruit and I was a pretty good player for my classification.  The few times I remember getting schooled it was because we were playing a far more talented team and simply could not hang.

Irvin is a ball handler. His PG play led us to wins over 3 good teams. Did you not hear Jimmy Dykes hyping him before the game? I dont know why I'm having to repeat myself over and over. ONE BAD GAME. ONE. Five good games....one bad game. See a difference here?
Did you not here Dykes point out the fact he turns the ball over too much for the amount of assists he has.  I did several times.

Kendrick Davis left on his own accord. He was not happy with his PT. He knew he was being bumped in favor of Ronnie and Olu. Why do you think we wasted a schollie on Dontell Jefferson so late? it isn't as if we were trying to fit Al in the mix. We had schollies available.
From what I remember, Davis was told his scholarship would not be renewed.  If he did leave because he was not getting much PT, how does that support your earlier arguement that him leaving was somehow bad for us?

The rule forcing high school kids like Greg Oden and Kevin Durant be one year removed from high school before they could enter the draft is what gave Ronnie the best possible draft position and the largest amount of guaranteed money. You can claim Ronnie wanted to leave early all you want, but your opinion wont trump sound economic reasoning.
If the draft was still open to HS players, my opinion is Ronnie would still be gone.  He was a stud and did not have a lot of room for improvement.  Staying and improving slightly was not worth risking the injury, regardless of whether HS players were still allowed in the draft or not.  But, this is my opinion and it differs from yours. Neither can be proven.


Olu's skill arent being questioned. You said it was Heath's fault we didn't have more experinced guards. When you're recruiting months in advance, scouting players from all over, you can't simply see a guy like Olu leaving early, then make a quick phone call and sign some guy you didn't want just to fill a spot for 4 years. Besides, McCurdy was a good PG from an elite high school team. I'm guessing Heath counted on getting more from him. But him breaking his foot his senior year wasn't in the cards either now was it?
I agree. McCurdy looked timid last year and the injury probably had a lot to do with this.

Alright, and what if Ervin was benched? Who's gonna run the PG then? What gives us the best chance of coming back? when you play full cout hysteria like they did..loose balls and steals don't always end up in the PGs hands...how many times did Chuck Thomas, Beverley, and Weems go full throttle without looking back to give it to Ervin?
I honestly don't think that Welsh or Beverly would have done much worse at running the point last night.  Fact is, no one could pass the ball last night.  There was several times we threw it out of bounds in the half court offense when they were not playing trap defense.

Nope, he doesn't have a fat ring every year. But he has a solid team every year. You can't possibly question that.
Your definition of solid and mine are obviously not the same, and I'm not counting the first couple years under Heath either, for obvious reasons.


You said the analysts were wrong in praising us for exceeding expectations. Sorry, I'll listen to Bilas and Katz over the average JoeFan coach hater any day.
What have we done to exceed expectations?  I think we were favored to win all of our games thus far, including the Old Spice tourney and Mizzou.

Our free throw shooting is better. We've actually got some shooters. Ferguson and Modica weren't exactly Heath guys. Ferguson was a last minute addition to a team with no guards, especially a PG. he nearly transferred twice because he didnt want to play PG anymore. Modica was anything but a ball handler. He was a spot up shooter who rarely looked to make the extra pass. We've got a much more well-rounded backcourt now. They're thin at depth, but the overall talent is better to me.
I think they maybe more talented now, simply because of Beverly.  Everything else is about equal and we still don't have a ball handler on this team with no late additions ala Ferguson.