Roadgraders and their Depth-Will they Plow & Protect?

[ricepig]

Hope?  If your a Razorback fan that's your life! 😉

Ask Musk why he choose to include Steele's ranking in the OP.   Sparked some good discussion but anyone else that comments on it is a negative Nellie. 

Not really, how has Steele's rankings played out through the years? I bet he's had us higher in the past, how'd that work out, lol? I guess there hasn't been a team to have a "good" season ranked 5th in the SEC OL in his past rankings? Anyway, enjoy the 4th!

[Cinco de Hogo]

Every team has guys that they plug into and shift around into different positions. As an O-Line Coach, you are a real D.A. if you don't cross-train your guys.

Look at Miss State as an example, who Phil Steele says has the second best O-Line in the West this year. They have guys who played OG that also play OT. They have guys who have played OT move to OG to Center. They have guys who have played Center that also back up OT. Now to some folks that might look like a disorganized Chinese fire drill, but with the unpredictable nature of the game and with injuries being a frequent occurrence, if you aren't moving guys around to make sure you have your arse covered, you aren't doing your job.

I agree yo a point Musk, but I think it's also a function of recruiting and numbers.  You would want to identify a players position true position as early as possible and make him the best he can be at that position by repetition and experience.  Arkansas problems has been numbers forcing cross training in cause of injuries.  It's not the best scenario, but we haven't recruited and retained at that position for awhile.  It is looking better though, don't know if it will show this year but it should soon.

Oh and also some moving around is simply trying to find a place for a upperclassman, I don't think we've had that particular problem for awhile.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Hope?  If your a Razorback fan that's your life! 😉

Ask Musk why he choose to include Steele's ranking in the OP.   Sparked some good discussion but anyone else that comments on it is a negative Nellie. 

I included it because it is a published fact with regard to Steele's opinion. And you know, the lesser performance by our O-Line last year wasn't because we aren't (or weren't) as physically competitive as our opponents or unprepared for games by the offensive coaching staff.

In my opinion at least part of it was because they were transitioning through a learning process to become a more detail oriented team from the standpoint of technique. Different coaching philosophies from Pittman to Anderson. Also, there were some things going on inside the team last season and I think that at times (on both sides of the ball), those very critical 6 inches between the ears weren't as prepared and confident as they should have been.

They have now had a year to matriculate in Anderson's more technical system and if what I have been told is true, the mental aspect has been overcome as well. But it is true that all of this has to be proven on the field, so we will see.

And just for the record, I like Phil Steele and enjoy his magazine and predictions, but he misses on things as well.

[bennyl08]

Every team has guys that they plug into and shift around into different positions. As an O-Line Coach, you are a real D.A. if you don't cross-train your guys.

Look at Miss State as an example, who Phil Steele says has the second best O-Line in the West this year. They have guys who played OG that also play OT. They have guys who have played OT move to OG to Center. They have guys who have played Center that also back up OT. Now to some folks that might look like a disorganized Chinese fire drill, but with the unpredictable nature of the game and with injuries being a frequent occurrence, if you aren't moving guys around to make sure you have your arse covered, you aren't doing your job.

There's a big difference b/w cross training guys and not knowing who your starting 5 or much less where they will play by the first game of the season.

It's like the old saying with starting qb's. If you have 2 it means you have none. It's fine and actually ideal to have some cross training. However, the starting 5 need time to gel and develop chemistry as a unit. You want to be able to basically have your players see the defense pre-snap, then blindfold the OL, and have each one know where the other OL players will be and who each one will pick up. You get that by having lots of reps among the starters to develop that chemistry. When you don't even know who will be to your left or right after the first game even, it is hard to build that.

That is what we had last year and what I think jstock is referring to. I don't think we'll too much of that this year save for some competition at LT and RG. Where I think that will become big is at WR. Sure, we want Austin to have good chemistry with all the receivers but there is only so much time. It will benefit us to have a set group of WR's set themselves apart in fall camp and become the go to guys. If we are rotating in 6-7 guys with the first team, it'll be harder to develop that chemistry with qb and receiver.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I don't think we'll too much of that this year 

I don't either.

[nchogg]

I just wish fall camp would start, I'm getting wired waiting. It does give players more time to get ready for fall.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I agree yo a point Musk, but I think it's also a function of recruiting and numbers.  You would want to identify a players position true position as early as possible and make him the best he can be at that position by repetition and experience.  Arkansas problems has been numbers forcing cross training in cause of injuries.  It's not the best scenario, but we haven't recruited and retained at that position for awhile.  It is looking better though, don't know if it will show this year but it should soon.

Oh and also some moving around is simply trying to find a place for a upperclassman, I don't think we've had that particular problem for awhile.

Of course recruiting and development plays a role and not every player you sign is going to work out the way you anticipated when you signed them. On the other hand, most of the time you find other players that perhaps you didn't anticipate would be as good as you thought they would be, who end up being your best and your leaders who have enough athletic ability that they can play more than one position. That, is what you are really looking for in a player.

And it isn't just Arkansas who cross-trains offensive linemen. Every school does this. And when you identify those kids within your system that are good enough to do this with, it is also a benefit to them when and if they go to the NFL. Those teams also value a guy who can play Center and OG. Point being, everyone cross-trains because though you always have a goal of having "ideal depth", it rarely happens and the cross-training just makes you a stronger team that attempts to get their best 5 on the field at any given time.

[nwahogfan1]

Every team has guys that they plug into and shift around into different positions. As an O-Line Coach, you are a real D.A. if you don't cross-train your guys.

Look at Miss State as an example, who Phil Steele says has the second best O-Line in the West this year. They have guys who played OG that also play OT. They have guys who have played OT move to OG to Center. They have guys who have played Center that also back up OT. Now to some folks that might look like a disorganized Chinese fire drill, but with the unpredictable nature of the game and with injuries being a frequent occurrence, if you aren't moving guys around to make sure you have your arse covered, you aren't doing your job.

I think cross training is great in the spring but can lead to miss assignments if done in the fall unless it is done with your older more experienced players.   But instead of playing guys at two spots why not develop and recruit depth at each spot?

IMO we have to develop depth and play that depth to get more competition in our practices and to keep the OL more rested. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I think cross training is great in the spring but can lead to miss assignments if done in the fall unless it is done with your older more experienced players.   But instead of playing guys at two spots why not develop and recruit depth at each spot?

IMO we have to develop depth and play that depth to get more competition in our practices and to keep the OL more rested. 

I answered that here.

Of course recruiting and development plays a role and not every player you sign is going to work out the way you anticipated when you signed them. On the other hand, most of the time you find other players that perhaps you didn't anticipate would be as good as you thought they would be, who end up being your best and your leaders who have enough athletic ability that they can play more than one position. That, is what you are really looking for in a player.

And it isn't just Arkansas who cross-trains offensive linemen. Every school does this. And when you identify those kids within your system that are good enough to do this with, it is also a benefit to them when and if they go to the NFL. Those teams also value a guy who can play Center and OG. Point being, everyone cross-trains because though you always have a goal of having "ideal depth", it rarely happens and the cross-training just makes you a stronger team that attempts to get their best 5 on the field at any given time.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Of course recruiting and development plays a role and not every player you sign is going to work out the way you anticipated when you signed them. On the other hand, most of the time you find other players that perhaps you didn't anticipate would be as good as you thought they would be, who end up being your best and your leaders who have enough athletic ability that they can play more than one position. That, is what you are really looking for in a player.

And it isn't just Arkansas who cross-trains offensive linemen. Every school does this. And when you identify those kids within your system that are good enough to do this with, it is also a benefit to them when and if they go to the NFL. Those teams also value a guy who can play Center and OG. Point being, everyone cross-trains because though you always have a goal of having "ideal depth", it rarely happens and the cross-training just makes you a stronger team that attempts to get their best 5 on the field at any given time.

Again I agree to a point, however our desire is to compete with schools that recruit better than we do, schools that don't have to cross train as much as we do at the point of starting a season perhaps.  If these schools are consistently entering the season with players who have gotten more practice time and more experience at a position than our players plus the fact they were probably rated higher coming out of high school wouldn't we alway be "behind"?  Isn't that what we have been seeing?  Again I'm not arguing against cross training I'm merely saying that when we have the numbers the quality will show because we are starting more players who have spent more time at their starting position.  How can you argue that wouldn't have a impact?   As someone said earlier, I would love to see the time we don't go into the first game right off playing musical chairs. 

[Pudgepork]

As others have said, barring injury, this line will be much improved.  Ragnow and Gibson
are very very good.  Jackson and Wallace have added a year of experience and should be solid.
I won't say The Great Dane wasn't a disappointment last season because we all hyped him
in the preseason. As it turned out, he looked lost and bewildered much of the time.  That should
be the past and he should be ready to go. 

Depth is much improved. 
The chance to redshirt some very talented newcomers bodes well. 

The Oline is in good hands and I can't wait to yell 1 and 0 Baby!!!!!

[presidenthog]

Bielema markets Arkansas as 'Offensive Line U' - http://www.wholehogsports.com/news/2017/jun/08/bielema-markets-arkansas-as-offensive-l/

If Bielema is selling Arkansas as 'Offensive Line U', then who's buying?
I mentioned the above because there's been multiple instances where we've seen Steele be one of the few analysts to give Arkansas fans reason for optimism in recent years... so this stands out a bit.


We'd like nothing more than to see something like this actually happen, but last year's epic fail was there for everyone to witness firsthand.

What you don't realize is Steele is bullish on our o line and has us as the 12th best in the country, but everyone else we play is basically ahead of us.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

What you don't realize is Steele is bullish on our o line and has us as the 12th best in the country, but everyone else we play is basically ahead of us.

So you are 12th out of all the teams in college football, but 5 other SEC teams that you play are ranked ahead of you. That's life in the SEC. How many Big 12 OL's come in better than Arkansas? Two. Oklahoma at #1, Texas at #7. Seven SEC teams were ranked within the top 12 in the country.

[HamSammich]

This years offensive line will be the second best in the SEC.


As far as it being better than last years .... surely you people jest. Or maybe don't watch the games a few times each. Maybe everyone in hogville has a comfortable self inflicted memory block on the past... I dunno.

So you are 12th out of all the teams in college football, but 5 other SEC teams that you play are ranked ahead of you. That's life in the SEC. How many Big 12 OL's come in better than Arkansas? Two. Oklahoma at #1, Texas at #7. Seven SEC teams were ranked within the top 12 in the country.

[PorkRinds]

I think cross training is great in the spring but can lead to miss assignments if done in the fall unless it is done with your older more experienced players.   But instead of playing guys at two spots why not develop and recruit depth at each spot?

IMO we have to develop depth and play that depth to get more competition in our practices and to keep the OL more rested.

It's amazing how many people are willing to just throw darn at the wall about things they obviously have no clue about.

[Cinco de Hogo]

It's amazing how many people are willing to just throw darn at the wall about things they obviously have no clue about.

Really!  A lot of you sunshine pumpers throw darn at the wall every year.   There is never just one problem but there is no way you can claim moving players around late in fall camp is a desired scenario.  I for one hope the o-line stabilizes and we have at least two groups that get lots of repetition at A position.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Really!  A lot of you sunshine pumpers throw darn at the wall every year.   There is never just one problem but there is no way you can claim moving players around late in fall camp is a desired scenario.  I for one hope the o-line stabilizes and we have at least two groups that get lots of repetition at A position.

You do it in the spring, you have them practice those assignments on their own, you have them do it in the summer, you have them do it in fall camp, you keep the assignments fresh in their minds by running through those in the meeting rooms and on the field during the fall. It never stops. It isn't sunshine pumping, it is just fact.

[Cinco de Hogo]

You do it in the spring, you have them practice those assignments on their own, you have them do it in the summer, you have them do it in fall camp, you keep the assignments fresh in their minds by running through those in the meeting rooms and on the field during the fall. It never stops. It isn't sunshine pumping, it is just fact.

Let me put it this way,  if you tell me we are moving players around the week of the first game AND that we have a great o-line, you are pumping sunshine.  Now I'm not talking about keeping things fresh, I'm talking about trying to figure out who the starter is. 

What I want to hear is that we have two or more players competing hard for the same position.  What I don't want to hear is we are moving players from position to position trying to find a starter. 

[presidenthog]

Let me put it this way,  if you tell me we are moving players around the week of the first game AND that we have a great o-line, you are pumping sunshine.  Now I'm not talking about keeping things fresh, I'm talking about trying to figure out who the starter is. 

What I want to hear is that we have two or more players competing hard for the same position.  What I don't want to hear is we are moving players from position to position trying to find a starter.

I can name all 5 starters right now, and I can 100% guarantee that this will not change come the first day. So idk what you are bi****, about.

Ya it happened last year, but that was last year. Move on dude. Our starting 5 is locked for this year, and I can even tell you who the starting 5 next year will be. Replace ragnow with Zack Rodgers and Presto you have the 2018 starting offensive line.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Let me put it this way,  if you tell me we are moving players around the week of the first game AND that we have a great o-line, you are pumping sunshine.  Now I'm not talking about keeping things fresh, I'm talking about trying to figure out who the starter is. 

What I want to hear is that we have two or more players competing hard for the same position.  What I don't want to hear is we are moving players from position to position trying to find a starter. 

I'm not talking about still trying to decide who is the starter the last week of practice before the first game.

We have two or more players at each position who are competing hard to be the starter. Pushing each other.

[Cinco de Hogo]

I'm not talking about still trying to decide who is the starter the last week of practice before the first game.

We have two or more players at each position who are competing hard to be the starter. Pushing each other.

So that's all I've said, never said there shouldn't be any cross training going on.  Numbers and talent along with some decent coaching should get you were you want to be.  I still question the coaching decisions from last year so I need to see THAT improve.  Just a question of which one helps the other the most(numbers and talent vs coaching).

[ricepig]

So that's all I've said, never said there shouldn't be any cross training going on.  Numbers and talent along with some decent coaching should get you were you want to be.  I still question the coaching decisions from last year so I need to see THAT improve.  Just a question of which one helps the other the most(numbers and talent vs coaching).

Wait, you can't have it both ways, you can't bitch about certain players playing, and then bitch about switching guys up. I guess you knew last August that Gipson needed to be at RG, and Wallace at RT? All of those guys were fighting for playing time, all of them new potential starters, it takes time to break in a new OL.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Wait, you can't have it both ways, you can't bitch about certain players playing, and then bitch about switching guys up. I guess you knew last August that Gipson needed to be at RG, and Wallace at RT? All of those guys were fighting for playing time, all of them new potential starters, it takes time to break in a new OL.

If you don't get it you can alway pump sunshine Rice.   Do you want the same thing as last year?  No you don't, that's why you hope there has been progress.  We have seen the numbers increase, you would hope that means more upperclassmen.  Anderson is going into his second year.  I(maybe not you)would hope that they are further along with identifying starters entering fall camp and that by game week they have the two deep set.  Again that doesn't mean you don't cross train especially the younger ones.  But like any other position you hope you have starters getting the majority of the reps AT the position they will play.  If you are talking upperclassmen starters, which you guy tell us all the time is the goal on the O-line,  then you've had 3,4,5 years to cross train.  You also tell us how important teamwork is on the O-line, now you arguing you need to keep cross training.  You can't get timing and teamwork down that way. 

As I said, don't tell me we are still moving starters around during game week and that we have a great o-line.  It may happen,...but which game? 3rd, 4th, 5th? 

And remember, I'm not talking about players or coaches, I'm in a discussion with fans.

[ricepig]

If you don't get it you can alway pump sunshine Rice.   Do you want the same thing as last year?  No you don't, that's why you hope there has been progress.  We have seen the numbers increase, you would hope that means more upperclassmen.  Anderson is going into his second year.  I(maybe not you)would hope that they are further along with identifying starters entering fall camp and that by game week they have the two deep set.  Again that doesn't mean you don't cross train especially the younger ones.  But like any other position you hope you have starters getting the majority of the reps AT the position they will play.  If you are talking upperclassmen starters, which you guy tell us all the time is the goal on the O-line,  then you've had 3,4,5 years to cross train.  You also tell us how important teamwork is on the O-line, now you arguing you need to keep cross training.  You can't get timing and teamwork down that way. 

As I said, don't tell me we are still moving starters around during game week and that we have a great o-line.  It may happen,...but which game? 3rd, 4th, 5th? 

And remember, I'm not talking about players or coaches, I'm in a discussion with fans.

Fall camp hasn't even started and you're bitching about what happened last year. Of course everyone hopes and expects there to be improvement, seems simple enough. You can't have upperclassmen starting when you're having to start freshmen and sophomores, hopefully we get to there in our program. As far as cross training, watch some college football on Saturdays, when LSU, Bama, or Georgia has an OL go down, the vast majority of the time, they'll bring in their best guy, and shuffle the line.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

First off, the starting line isn't set. It can change every year depending upon who gets better, who puts out more effort, who ups their game, just who does a better job. And I realize how important it can be to develop some level of continuity, especially on the O-Line, where each player needs to know what any other member of the O-Line is doing on any given play and that because they know this and have confidence in each other, they have also developed a sense of timing within a certain group of guys so that they develop confidence within that group in each other.

However, if you stop getting better, if you stop giving all that you have and executing at a high level, you can be replaced from one game to the next. It is all up to the individual player, even though an O-Line Coach will try his best to keep a single group together for the purpose of developed continuity and trust.

Injuries are obviously a different thing and you hope that the guy behind him provides little drop off in production and doesn't upset the developed timing of the Line and the entire Offensive Unit.

The good thing for us is that we have a healthy group of talented offensive linemen that can go three deep in every position and from what I understand, the competition for playing time hasn't been this strong within this much depth in a long time. And, like it or not, the vast majority are cross training for other positions, as they should be, so we can keep our best 5 healthy linemen at any given time, on the field.

And don't be surprised if something happens where someone gets replaced at some point or is switched to a different position during the season. Don't panic if you don't know the reason.

I know it is just July 6 and we have 3 weeks until players report, but see if you guys can kiss and make up and try to exercise patience and get along for a few more weeks.

[bphi11ips]

The offensive line is going to be good. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

The offensive line is going to be good. 

I think they will be better without a doubt. They need to post a few numbers in the O-Line meeting room.

17, 60, 6.8, .488 and .900

Sacks Allowed, TFL Allowed, Yards/Play, 3rd Down Conversion % and Off RZ Conversion %

If they can reach those goals this Fall we will have a heckuva offense and score a ton of points.

[HamSammich]

Lol this isn't a sunshine pumper vs reality poster argument.


This is a people that have watched razorback games vs those that just want to bitch.


If I even tried to describe how bad the offensive line was last year I'd get a ban. I could name a couple of names and say I've never seen worse.


So "could" the o-line be better next year??? Save your arguments... this is immaterial .

[ChitownHawg]

On a 24" screen desktop...

Maybe check out an optometrist? 

[ChitownHawg]

I would use someone more credible than local media. The OL is still a huge question mark. AA loves to hang on to the ball longer than his older brother, who had a sense of the pocket that he helped the numbers look a lot better. With AA holding it longer trying to wait for his receivers to get open and the OL's general suckiness, don't give me much hope.

Yep, getting curb stomped by Bama in your first game will do that. It was hard watching that game. I told my wife it was like watching Rocky 3

[RedSkiesAtNightHog]

LG is a bad example. The same LG started every game last year. 
When they go through drills this summer:

Colton Jackson - LT
Hjalte Froholdt -LG
Frank Ragnow - C
Johnny Gibson - RG
Brian Wallace -RT

Barring injury, this is the startling 5 for FAMU.

Here's the biggest difference in 2017:

In the spring of 2016, there were 11 offensive linemen in spring camp.  Three of those, Gibson, Hannah, and Sone were walk ons.  This spring there were 19. 

Frank Ragnow was the only OL starter that returned to the same position.  Skipper had to move form RT to LT.  The LG (Hjalte) had never played a D-1 offensive snap. The RG (Raulerson) was new and had a bad leg all year and then was replaced by a walk on who was later awarded a scholarship (Gibson).  The RT was Skipper who moved to LT because Colton Jackson, a red shirt freshman, wasn't ready, so Brian Wallace moved to RT.  Frank is the best center in the country, no other comment necessary. 

Everyone points to the number of sacks and blames the OL exclusively.  The percentage of sacks per pass attempt went up 4% from 2015 to 2016.  The same people that complain that Brandon tree to many balls away, now fail to understand that holding on to the balm to try and make something happen leads to more sacks.  But the biggest reason there were more sacks year is currently in Seattle.  Alex Collins was a phenomenal pass blocker.  Rawleigh and Devwah gave effort, but simply the pass blockers Alex was.  Why do you think Kidy Walker played so much in the bowl game?  He's the best pass blocker to combat the blitz packages in VT's Bud Foster defense.  Changes are being made.  Schemes are being introduced to take pressure of the running backs pass blocking.  The OL has to improve, no question, but the QB decision making,  RB blocking, TEs chipping on their way into routes, and playing calling are all evolving in an effort to improve.  The players, position coaches, coordinator, and Head Coach are all adjusting.

An informative post!  Thank you for the personal insight!  I am optimistic about the O Line and the season in general!  Beat Notre Dame in 2020! 

[Porked Tongue]

I don't think players should be allowed to "plow" during the season.  It weakens their leg strength.

But for sure they should always wear "protection".

"Depth" often leads to more success.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

An informative post!  Thank you for the personal insight!  I am optimistic about the O Line and the season in general!  Beat Notre Dame in 2020! 

I think that the O-Line will be vastly improved as well.

[Dark Helmet Hog]

I don't think players should be allowed to "plow" during the season.  It weakens their leg strength.

But for sure they should always wear "protection".

"Depth" often leads to more success.

The wider they can get a hole will lead to more success as well. Also, can't over stress the importance of good protection and the ability to feel at ease in the pocket.