Mandel thinks the SEC has the worst coaches

[RazorWest]

I actually agree with this.  If the SEC could get some good coaches again they might put themselves back as the best conference.  Talent isn't enough.  It's talent and coaching

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/ranking-power-5-conferences-harbaugh-meyer-acc-sec-big-12-saban-alabama-sumlin-hot-seat-zaire-florida-mailbag-mandel-060717

[Deep Shoat]

You're both wrong.

[KlubhouseKonnected]

Except a lot of his praise for other conference coaching involves new hires whose previous success has enough immediacy for the writer to bank on. Kevin Sunlin was winning at a great clip before he came to the sec and so on and so forth.

[RazorWest]

I just mainly agree with the narrative that Saban has cost excellent coaches their jobs in the SEC and now it's a bunch of unproven talent. 

[Tiredofhogssucking]

Scroll down to see his response to the question...

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/ranking-power-5-conferences-harbaugh-meyer-acc-sec-big-12-saban-alabama-sumlin-hot-seat-zaire-florida-mailbag-mandel-060717

[Boss Hog in the Arkansas]

I just mainly agree with the narrative that Saban has cost excellent coaches their jobs in the SEC and now it's a bunch of unproven talent.

We may have several excellent coaches right now, but when you put 2 buzz saws together they both come out of the encounter nicked up. The only person coming out of everything unscathed is saban. The SEC is a dog race, Saban has an army full bred greyhounds, everyone else is using mutts

[gchamblee]

So fox sports, who has hitched their lorry to the Big !2, thinks that the SEC is subpar in something? I'm shocked! Despite the obvious bias, the SEC has chewed up and spit out some excellent coaches and the coaching talent level is less than what it once was. I think everyone can agree on that.

[NuttinItUp]

About halfway down the page he answers a question about Bielema.

[nwahogfan1]

I actually agree with this.  If the SEC could get some good coaches again they might put themselves back as the best conference.  Talent isn't enough.  It's talent and coaching

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/ranking-power-5-conferences-harbaugh-meyer-acc-sec-big-12-saban-alabama-sumlin-hot-seat-zaire-florida-mailbag-mandel-060717

Good article. I think it was very honest with facts supporting his claims.  On CBB and what he said on Arkansas, can he get it done here?  We hope of course. We want his 3-4 defense to work. We want his new coaching hires to pay huge dividends in recruiting and on field coaching this year.  I love the Rhoads promotion as our new DC but jury is still out on the others including Anderson. The Head Coach is only as good as his assistants and Their isn't much of a track record on any if them.

I think we have to see improvement on both sides of the ball this year and particularly the defense and OL or the doubters will appear and  maybe even some boo birds depending on how it goes.   We cannot lose to Auburn by 50 at home or there will lots of boo birds.

For me we need to upset a couple teams this year and win 9 games plus our bowl game before I think we are on the rise and where I thought we would be in year 5. I like CBB but I need some improvements. Less than that in CBB 5th year would be less than I expected from him in year 5.

[RME]

About halfway down the page he answers a question about Bielema.

His answer to that question was, in my opinion, incredibly spot on. I finished reading it was thought, "Wow. Yeah."

As for the SEC being 5th in coaching strength, he does present a good argument as to why he believes that's the case. With Stoops gone, I would lower the Big 12 to 5th and push the SEC to 4th, maybe 3rd ahead of the Pac 12, but I really don't think he's that far off.

[Hogwild]

His answer to that question was, in my opinion, incredibly spot on. I finished reading it was thought, "Wow. Yeah."

It was honest answer, still it hurt to read that they only way we can win the conference is for Saban to retire, the next Cam Newton fall in our lap, and half the conference gets put on probation.

[NuttinItUp]

It was honest answer, still it hurt to read that they only way we can win the conference is for Saban to retire, the next Cam Newton fall in our lap, and half the conference gets put on probation.

Maybe we just need 2 out of 3.

[KlubhouseKonnected]

Maybe we just need 2 out of 3.

I took it as the writer saying we need two or of three. It will be curious to see how the power vacuum works IF Nick ever does retire or die.

[Vantage 8 dude]

I took it as the writer saying we need two or of three. It will be curious to see how the power vacuum works IF Nick ever does retire or die.

Well I will absolutely GUARANTEE one thing: eventually Saban will die. That is unless he truly is God as many 'Bama boosters believe.

[Letsroll1200]

Honest assessment of Razorback football under Bret.

[go hogues]

The SEC is a dog race, Saban has an army full bred greyhounds, everyone else is using mutts

Wouldn't go that far. Everyone else has varying quantities of greyhounds.

On a 1-10 scale, we have 2 Greyhounds, Alabama has 10 and an LSU or Georgia has 8.

[Piggfoot]

So Clemson with a fairy tale coach wins a NC off of two pick plays which I think were illegal and now the SEC is second rate. Trying to stir up controversy. BS.

[NuttinItUp]

Well I will absolutely GUARANTEE one thing: eventually Saban will die. That is unless he truly is God as many 'Bama boosters believe.

That or they hurry up with that all powerful AI that they've been promising out of Silicon Valley which will cure aging. (of course, it will then go on to kill us as Skynet, so the gain might only be temporary)

[hogcard1964]

Can someone post the article and questions?  I can't read them on this computer.

[Bacons Rebellion]

Well I will absolutely GUARANTEE one thing: eventually Saban will die. That is unless he truly is God as many 'Bama boosters believe.

"On the third day he ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of Bear, the father almighty."

[31to6]

I actually agree with this.  If the SEC could get some good coaches again they might put themselves back as the best conference.  Talent isn't enough.  It's talent and coaching

http://www.foxsports.com/college-football/story/ranking-power-5-conferences-harbaugh-meyer-acc-sec-big-12-saban-alabama-sumlin-hot-seat-zaire-florida-mailbag-mandel-060717

He lists coaches in his analysis of other conferences that were no more successful than some of the SEC coaches have been before coming to the SEC.

Whether or not they will excel is in question, but coaches like Bielema, Butch Jones, McElwain, Sumlin all had as strong of pedigrees coming into the SEC as some of the unproven and "underappreciated" coaches he is highlighting out as reasons why the other conferences are better.

David Cutcliffe is suddenly a genius, but he *failed* in the SEC. (And in the SEC with a less powerful Western division than today.) Apples to apples, Beaver Cleaver has a better record than he did at the same exact school--in a division *with* Sabanbama.

[RME]

He lists coaches in his analysis of other conferences that were no more successful than some of the SEC coaches have been before coming to the SEC.

Whether or not they will excel is in question, but coaches like Bielema, Butch Jones, McElwain, Sumlin all had as strong of pedigrees coming into the SEC as some of the unproven and "underappreciated" coaches he is highlighting out as reasons why the other conferences are better.

David Cutcliffe is suddenly a genius, but he *failed* in the SEC. (And in the SEC with a less powerful Western division than today.) Apples to apples, Beaver Cleaver has a better record than he did at the same exact school--in a division *with* Sabanbama.

Cutcliffe has won 52 games total at Duke in 9 seasons. Before his arrival, Duke won 52 games total in about 18 seasons. I'd say that's not bad.

[redleg]

Mandel's assessment of Bielema is very close to correct. I firmly believe that if CBB can put together a team that can win 10+ games and beat Alabama in the same season (2018?), then he and his staff might be able to put together a couple of Top 15 recruiting classes that might be able to win an SEC Championship Game and get to the playoffs...or at the very least, win 12 games. It might be just that one year, but it would at least draw Arkansas some interest from some near-future high ranked recruits, that might enable Bielema to build another great one year team. It would also give him some 8 and 9-win teams in between that could win some decent bowl games, and enable him to stick around Fayetteville for awhile, which would provide stability to the program.
Just a theory.
:razorback:

[revolution]

Maybe the reason so many SEC coaches have not so sterling records is because the quality in the SEC is so deep that no one outside of super elite Saban can build up his record.  Take a mediocre coach in the SEC, put them in the Big 12, Big 10 or Pac 12, and they suddenly become a much bigger winner. 

Why did Urban leave the SEC?  Why do coaches with great success in other conferences struggle to duplicate that in the SEC?  Why didn't Oklahoma and Texas want to join the SEC? 

Because the competition is too stiff! And now you've got a situation where very good coaches (Stoops, Meyer, Swinney, Gundy) don't want to run the SEC gauntlet and lessen their chances at standing out from the crowd.

The SEC doesn't have the worst coaches, it just has the toughest environment for a coach to stand out from the crowd (outside of Saban, who would dominate anywhere and is in the perfect situation for himself at Bama).

[revolution]

Mandel's assessment of Bielema is very close to correct. I firmly believe that if CBB can put together a team that can win 10+ games and beat Alabama in the same season (2018?), then he and his staff might be able to put together a couple of Top 15 recruiting classes that might be able to win an SEC Championship Game and get to the playoffs...or at the very least, win 12 games. It might be just that one year, but it would at least draw Arkansas some interest from some near-future high ranked recruits, that might enable Bielema to build another great one year team. It would also give him some 8 and 9-win teams in between that could win some decent bowl games, and enable him to stick around Fayetteville for awhile, which would provide stability to the program.
Just a theory.
:razorback:

Bielema in the Big 10 - What a Great Coach!
Bielema in the SEC - Just a Mediocre Coach!

Yeah, the coaching talent in the SEC is really down!

[LRHawg]

It hasn't finished higher than ninth in the SEC in 247Sports' recruiting class rankings since 2008.

This doesn't guarantee we won't win, it just puts the odds squarely against us. We'd have to have a repeat of the conditions that got us to the SEC championship last time, only instead of blowing it at the end of the game we actually pull it off.

[RME]

Maybe the reason so many SEC coaches have not so sterling records is because the quality in the SEC is so deep that no one outside of super elite Saban can build up his record.  Take a mediocre coach in the SEC, put them in the Big 12, Big 10 or Pac 12, and they suddenly become a much bigger winner. 

Why did Urban leave the SEC?  Why do coaches with great success in other conferences struggle to duplicate that in the SEC?  Why didn't Oklahoma and Texas want to join the SEC? 

Because the competition is too stiff! And now you've got a situation where very good coaches (Stoops, Meyer, Swinney, Gundy) don't want to run the SEC gauntlet and lessen their chances at standing out from the crowd.

The SEC doesn't have the worst coaches, it just has the toughest environment for a coach to stand out from the crowd (outside of Saban, who would dominate anywhere and is in the perfect situation for himself at Bama).

So, college football head coaches - some of the most competitive, arrogant people on the planet - shy away from competition and a shot at beating the best?

Nah. I don't buy that.

[jcbville]

Ive said it before and I'll say it in relation to this. Nick Saban and his machine at Alabama is, at this point hurting the SEC.

[LRRandy]

Ive said it before and I'll say it in relation to this. Nick Saban and his machine at Alabama is, at this point hurting the SEC.

well he has lost in two of the three playoffs, so he isn't perfect.

[PonderinHog]

well he has lost in two of the three playoffs, so he isn't perfect.

Trouble is it just makes the SOB more determined.   

[HiggiePiggy]

I just mainly agree with the narrative that Saban has cost excellent coaches their jobs in the SEC and now it's a bunch of unproven talent. 

Which coach other than maybe Less Miles was fired because of Nick Saban in the SEC?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

So, college football head coaches - some of the most competitive, arrogant people on the planet - shy away from competition and a shot at beating the best?

Nah. I don't buy that.

I don't think that it is that they "shy away from it" but I think that they consider what might be the 1, 2, 3 top places on their career list that they can go and have the best opportunity to experience higher levels of success.

The SEC remains the toughest road. Saban is just a great technician with a great plan and someone who not only demands the best from his teams, but who is willing to adjust his program as he sees times changing. His name and the reputation of Alabama draw the better players like a magnet and that offers Alabama the opportunity to be very picky about who they eventually sign.

Urban Meyer made a decision to find a way out of the meat grinder and still wind up in a respected conference and because his reputation preceded him, recruiting came easier for Ohio State where generally speaking, there are only about 2-3 actual other consistent threats throughout the conference and it still isn't the meat grinder that the SEC tends to be.

Mike Gundy might succeed at a similar level to his current success in the Big Ten, maybe even in the Pac 12, but not in the SEC and not if he went to the ACC and had to compete in the Atlantic Division with Clemson, Florida State and Louisville. He runs one of those fast paced offenses that tends to level the playing field but generally doesn't have enough defense to compete with the bigger teams all of the time.

Oklahoma (if under Stoops) might be a 9-10 win team in the SEC West with the occasional dip into the 7-8-9 win range and that is only because of the recruiting advantage that they have developed over decades of work. But are they going to be a team that beats Alabama and LSU on a regular basis? Doubtful.

So my point is, if I have been working my arse off and paying my dues and found success elsewhere and I got a chance to become the HC at S. California (the real USC) I would jump at the chance to have their tradition, heritage, money and feast on west coast recruiting while not having to face an SEC schedule year in and year out.

If Notre Dame came calling, I would hope that I could win 10-11 games each year in South Bend.

If Michigan came calling...same thing.

If Texas called (as much as I want to take a pee on burnt orange) I'd be there in a heartbeat and the same with Oklahoma.

If Alabama called, I might pay them. I'm kidding, but you understand. It is just such a tremendous advantage.

You have to pick your places and just because you are a competitive guy and good at what you do, you still have to use your head and there isn't any sense in putting yourself in a position where you have a steeper mountain to climb.

Timing plays a vital role. You want go somewhere that has had big time accomplishments and potential, but who has fallen on less successful times. Never take over a program that has been operating at or near it's zenith. Who wants to follow Nick Saban at Alabama when he leaves? Who also wants to follow Charlie Strong at Texas when he leaves? See what I mean?

[31to6]

Cutcliffe has won 52 games total at Duke in 9 seasons. Before his arrival, Duke won 52 games total in about 18 seasons. I'd say that's not bad.

I'm not saying he isn't a good coach. I am saying that we know exactly how well he would do in the SEC: he would have one good season and otherwise struggle to compete.

[KlubhouseKonnected]

Well I will absolutely GUARANTEE one thing: eventually Saban will die. That is unless he truly is God as many 'Bama boosters believe.

Or the dark lord as many others believe.

[KlubhouseKonnected]

Cutcliffe has won 52 games total at Duke in 9 seasons. Before his arrival, Duke won 52 games total in about 18 seasons. I'd say that's not bad.

Exactly, so did Cutcloffe just miraculously become a good coach when he arrived at Duke or was he always a good coach and now he is in a position where the University was more patient and the competition less fierce?

[GoHogs1091]

There is an absence of good football coaches in the SEC.

Freeze didn't really do much even with Chad Kelly, who was an All-SEC QB.

Malzahn hasn't done anything since he had Cam Newton, and even when he was the Coordinator coaching Newton,, that team was able to win games because of Nick Fairley, a Tight End, and an Offensive Lineman.

Jones is mediocre.

Sumlin is still having trouble post Manziel.

Muschamp couldn't win at Florida.  That is really all that is needed to be known about Muschamp's coaching.

McElwain can't seem to develop a competent QB.  The difference in the level of coaching was striking when McElwain got out-coached by Jim Harbaugh in the bowl game at the end of season-before-last.

Smart and Odom are inexperienced Head Coaches. 

Bielema's record here is all that is needed to be known about his coaching.  His record at Wisconsin is now basically irrelevant.

Orgeron hasn't shown that he can put together consistent winning seasons.

[Hawghiggs]

There is an absence of good football coaches in the SEC.

Freeze didn't really do much even with Chad Kelly, who was an All-SEC QB.

Malzahn hasn't done anything since he had Cam Newton, and even when he was the Coordinator coaching Newton,, that team was able to win games because of Nick Fairley, a Tight End, and an Offensive Lineman.

Jones is mediocre.

Sumlin is still having trouble post Manziel.

Muschamp couldn't win at Florida.  That is really all that is needed to be known about Muschamp's coaching.

McElwain can't seem to develop a competent QB.  The difference in the level of coaching was striking when McElwain got out-coached by Jim Harbaugh in the bowl game at the end of season-before-last.

Smart and Odom are inexperienced Head Coaches. 

Bielema's record here is all that is needed to be known about his coaching.  His record at Wisconsin is now basically irrelevant.

Orgeron hasn't shown that he can put together consistent winning seasons.

Good post.

[RazorWest]

Which coach other than maybe Less Miles was fired because of Nick Saban in the SEC?

This used to be the coaches in the SEC
Les Miles - Natty
Phil Fulmer- Natty
Tommy Tubberville - Undefeated season
Urban Meyer - Natty
Mark Richt - No Natty, but excellent winning percentage
Steve Spurrier - Natty
Nick Saban - Natty


Not saying that Saban cost all these coaches their jobs, but the coaching talent now is nowhere on the above level

[RME]

I don't think that it is that they "shy away from it" but I think that they consider what might be the 1, 2, 3 top places on their career list that they can go and have the best opportunity to experience higher levels of success.

Timing plays a vital role. You want go somewhere that has had big time accomplishments and potential, but who has fallen on less successful times. Never take over a program that has been operating at or near it's zenith. Who wants to follow Nick Saban at Alabama when he leaves? Who also wants to follow Charlie Strong at Texas when he leaves? See what I mean?

I don't disagree with you at all. I just interpreted the previous post that I had responded to in a way that I didn't fully buy. I understand that in college football, whatever a coach might be feeling is all about the situation he's in. Definitely agree with that.

But, you mentioned coaches going where they could have higher levels of success. For a case study, look no further than our head guy: Bielema had it pretty cushy at Wisconsin. Going to BCS bowls seemingly every year, winning double-digit games year in and year out in what, at that time, wasn't THAT strong of a conference. He knew that he couldn't just step in at Arkansas and have that success. So why did he leave? (Administration aspects aside.)

He said wanted to give us an SEC championship. Because he's an arrogant (in a good way; not an Urban Meyer arrogant), competitive guy. He, like most big name coaches, want to take on the best and beat the darn out of them. Not devolving into a Petrino post, but no one can deny that guy wanted to beat the living hell out of everyone he played. That's just how big name college coaches are wired. Bret left a place where he was doing extremely well to come to the SEC, the conference with the best competition.

And sure, timing definitely plays a vital role, no doubt about that. Maybe it was superficial, but Herman seemed pretty stoked about landing the Texas job and following Strong. As far as Saban, honest question: (I'm not being condescending) But you don't think a guy like Dabo, who has shown he can get it done at Clemson, would take the Bama job if offered? He's reached the pinnacle at Clemson, why would a fiery guy like that not want to do it at the most recognizable college football school in the country?

[revolution]

I don't disagree with you at all. I just interpreted the previous post that I had responded to in a way that I didn't fully buy. I understand that in college football, whatever a coach might be feeling is all about the situation he's in. Definitely agree with that.

But, you mentioned coaches going where they could have higher levels of success. For a case study, look no further than our head guy: Bielema had it pretty cushy at Wisconsin. Going to BCS bowls seemingly every year, winning double-digit games year in and year out in what, at that time, wasn't THAT strong of a conference. He knew that he couldn't just step in at Arkansas and have that success. So why did he leave? (Administration aspects aside.)

He said wanted to give us an SEC championship. Because he's an arrogant (in a good way; not an Urban Meyer arrogant), competitive guy. He, like most big name coaches, want to take on the best and beat the darn out of them. Not devolving into a Petrino post, but no one can deny that guy wanted to beat the living hell out of everyone he played. That's just how big name college coaches are wired. Bret left a place where he was doing extremely well to come to the SEC, the conference with the best competition.

And sure, timing definitely plays a vital role, no doubt about that. Maybe it was superficial, but Herman seemed pretty stoked about landing the Texas job and following Strong. As far as Saban, honest question: (I'm not being condescending) But you don't think a guy like Dabo, who has shown he can get it done at Clemson, would take the Bama job if offered? He's reached the pinnacle at Clemson, why would a fiery guy like that not want to do it at the most recognizable college football school in the country?

I wonder if Bielema's lack of success in the SEC will discourage successful coaches in other leagues from wanting to jump into this conference.  You also note that Urban chose to get out of the meat grinder, and Saban seems to be dominant, so what's the point? 

It's easier to win and get to the college playoff in another power conference, and if you get to the top of that mountain, then a national championship is within reach. 

The SEC is just too difficult for these premiere coaches to see themselves dealing with the gauntlet just to hopefully achieve their ultimate goal (national championship) which can be more realistically and practically achieved elsewhere.

[jj202020]

I think the talent AND coaching on the defensive side of the ball, just makes the offenses (and thus, coaching) seem less potent for the casual observer.

[hogcard1964]

Can someone post the article?

[LRRandy]

I think the talent AND coaching on the defensive side of the ball, just makes the offenses (and thus, coaching) seem less potent for the casual observer.

I wonder if the casual observer will notice that the defenses in th sec are not as strong as they once were.
Total defense. National Rank
2011
1. Bama
2. LSU
3. S Carolina
5. Georgia
8. Florida
18. Vanderbilt
27. Tenn.
35. Miss St.
47. Arkansas
58. Kentucky
5 of top 10.  9 in top 50

2016
1. Bama
5. Florida
10. LSU
16. Georgia
28. Auburn
64. Vandy
75. Arkansas
85. Kentucky
90. aTm
3 in top 10. 5 in top 50.
In 2011 #10 defense in sec was 58 in country.
2016 # 10 defense was  90th.

[Boss Hog in the Arkansas]

Saban has a monopoly on the SEC and college football. Why would any great coach want to leave their safe haven for a place where they would not only be forced to play saban every year but also be constantly compared to saban. Urban Meyer is the perfect example

[LRRandy]

Saban has a monopoly on the SEC and college football. Why would any great coach want to leave their safe haven for a place where they would not only be forced to play saban every year but also be constantly compared to saban. Urban Meyer is the perfect example

seems to me Urban beat Saban as much as Saban beat him. Maybe not the perfect example.

[Al Boarland]

There is an absence of good football coaches in the SEC.

Freeze didn't really do much even with Chad Kelly, who was an All-SEC QB.

Malzahn hasn't done anything since he had Cam Newton, and even when he was the Coordinator coaching Newton,, that team was able to win games because of Nick Fairley, a Tight End, and an Offensive Lineman.

Jones is mediocre.

Sumlin is still having trouble post Manziel.

Muschamp couldn't win at Florida.  That is really all that is needed to be known about Muschamp's coaching.

McElwain can't seem to develop a competent QB.  The difference in the level of coaching was striking when McElwain got out-coached by Jim Harbaugh in the bowl game at the end of season-before-last.

Smart and Odom are inexperienced Head Coaches. 

Bielema's record here is all that is needed to be known about his coaching.  His record at Wisconsin is now basically irrelevant.

Orgeron hasn't shown that he can put together consistent winning seasons.

Is winning the SEC and playing for a natty with DB playing QB nothing?

I'd say that's a pretty big accomplishment.

[LRRandy]

Is winning the SEC and playing for a natty with DB playing QB nothing?

I'd say that's a pretty big accomplishment.

he had a heck of a year. That offense had everyone they played on their heels. Without the right player running his offense though, his teams are mediocre.

[jm]

seems to me Urban beat Saban as much as Saban beat him. Maybe not the perfect example.

Urban could see that he was falling behind in the race, IMO. I believe he is the perfect example. There is no argueing that he is a very good coach and I believe he looked at his roster/situation and that of others and was smart enough to get out before his reputation was ruined. There is no way to know who or how many coaches have decided to avoid this meat grinder, but it is a real possibility that some have.

[Hoggish1]

Why are you posting anything that Mandel writes?

[Al Boarland]

he had a heck of a year. That offense had everyone they played on their heels. Without the right player running his offense though, his teams are mediocre.

Agreed.  I've said this before, but we give CBB credit for bringing in a new DC when the unit wasn't getting the job done.  Malzahn did the same thing.  His run game combined with a more complex passing scheme is a dangerous combo.  It's not like they don't have players.  They recruit as well as anyone not named Bama.