who else thinks the Ref's Get more involved to help NC win ?

[ShadowHawg]

What I am tired of is the reviews on fouls. The call on Karnowski where he gets fouled ( which was called on NC ) , then in the scrap for the ball before the whistle his hand gets around the head of the much shorter NC player was nothing in real speed. But when they go to slow motion it looks much worse and he gets a f1.

It was most definitely a flagrant foul.

Berry is going in the opposite direction from Karnowski until he is grabbed by the face/throat and PULLED in the opposite direction so hard that it changed the direction of Berry to the point he is jerked off his feet.

You could clearly see Karnowski's hand CLAMP down on Berry and not simply graze him as they passed. There was surprisingly little body contact between the two when the replay was shown. So much so that the broadcast team thought Berry stole the ball cleanly.

Karnowski didn't apologize because he thought he hadn't done anything. To me it was clear that he felt like Berry had stolen the ball and was heading for a possible run out and Karnowski was grabbing him to stop it. I don't think he intended to grab his face/throat though.

[hogsanity]

It was most definitely a flagrant foul.

Berry is going in the opposite direction from Karnowski until he is grabbed by the face/throat and PULLED in the opposite direction so hard that it changed the direction of Berry to the point he is jerked off his feet.

You could clearly see Karnowski's hand CLAMP down on Berry and not simply graze him as they passed. There was surprisingly little body contact between the two when the replay was shown. So much so that the broadcast team thought Berry stole the ball cleanly.

Karnowski didn't apologize because he thought he hadn't done anything. To me it was clear that he felt like Berry had stolen the ball and was heading for a possible run out and Karnowski was grabbing him to stop it. I don't think he intended to grab his face/throat though.

Not what I was talking about. I said I do not like the reviews for these calls because they get to look at those is slow motion, from varying angles, yet they do not do this for other violations. What I really do not like is they can go back in time and do it. Like in the women's semi-final with Uconn and MSU. With under a minute to go in OT, on a steal by MSU, there is a no call. over 30 seconds later, after MSU has their possession, they go review, call a FL, and give UCONN 2 shots and the ball.

For me, if a foul is called, and they want to go look at it and see if it was a common foul of a f1 or f2, fine, but if nothing s called at the time, do not go back in time and call it later.

[jbigs77]

same old Song and Dance

Agree totally. Somewhere there is a group that sits down and decides who is going to win. Then they decide how much money to make and who gets it this year. I think its either the free masons or the Russians, but it could also be the NCAA.

[Youngsta71701]

I think this game was called equally bad against both teams. No flow in the game at all with all those weak foul calls that had no affect on the play or the game.

[ShadowHawg]

Not what I was talking about. I said I do not like the reviews for these calls because they get to look at those is slow motion, from varying angles, yet they do not do this for other violations. What I really do not like is they can go back in time and do it. Like in the women's semi-final with Uconn and MSU. With under a minute to go in OT, on a steal by MSU, there is a no call. over 30 seconds later, after MSU has their possession, they go review, call a FL, and give UCONN 2 shots and the ball.

For me, if a foul is called, and they want to go look at it and see if it was a common foul of a f1 or f2, fine, but if nothing s called at the time, do not go back in time and call it later.

It was called in time. It's just that they called the initial foul on Berry. Then they IMMEDIATELY went to the monitor.

Why did they do that? Do you think it was to see if Berry had committed a flagrant?

Slow mo is good in this case. The official on the call was shielded by Karnowski's body from seeing exactly what had happened but he was clearly certain that there had been contact above the shoulders by Karnowski.

If he immediately calls a flagrant as you suggest, then it can't be taken back. Instead he goes to the monitor where they get a better view that showed Karnowski clamping down around Berry's neck.

It's the exact same thing as a double foul, except when it's handled this way there is a possibility that Karnowski may not pick a foul up at all.

If this.rule had been place years ago, Laetner would have been tossed from the Kentucky game he ended up winning with his miraculous shot.

It's a good rule.

[maxhog5]

North Carolina won this game and the close games before them because they made plays down the stretch and their opponents including both Gonzaga and Arkansas did not.  That is what championship teams do.

[Kevin]

there needs to be some ability for post play contact. this non displacing rule is crap. on defense the post should be able to arm bar the offense.

I think there should be close hand, hand checking. be able to put your wrist on a dribbler.

freedom of movement on cuts, is great.

the rules are bending like the nfl, getting to the point you cannot guard without fouling.

[Hogz87]

You know, they just might.

I mean you could definitely convince yourself of that if you ignore everything else.  In their semi-final matchup with Oregon, UNC shot fewer FTs and were whistled for more fouls than the Ducks.  In last night's game, UNC shot the same number of FTs as Gonzaga and were whistled for the same number of fouls.

Also, the focus is on Kennedy Meeks being out of bounds on the held ball, which he was.  But there was a play not long before that was wrongfully called out of bounds on UNC on an airballed Gonzaga three.  UNC should've had possession and a four point lead.  Instead, Gonzaga retained possession and hit a three pointer to pull within one.  There was another play where UNC eventually got called for a foul, but on the replay it was very evident that the Gonzaga player walked (badly) before being fouled. 

There were missed calls on both sides.  Last night the refs intervened way too often for both teams.  It wasn't some conspiracy to give UNC a championship.  UNC was a senior and junior laden team who overcame their best/most important player playing with two sprained ankles most of the tournament.  UNC had a roster chocked full of deep postseason experience and it paid off in their wins over us, Kentucky, Oregon, and Gonzaga.  It sucks that we lost to them.  We had them wobbling and were in a great position to deliver the final knockout blow.  Yes, the two calls at the end were questionable at best, but UNC still went on a 12-0 run to close the game.  It was a tough loss but we also dug ourselves an early 17-point hole to climb out of which is about the least ideal way to try and win a basketball game. 

[Kevin]

the refereeing community is one of the last good ole boy network.

no way these were the best.

[ATLHog]

My God, I feel for the Zags (as well as UNC's other tourney opponents). Seeing them get screwed over like we did kind of eases the pain...kind of. Completely blows that games get decided by crap like that-

[Youngsta71701]

the refereeing community is one of the last good ole boy network.

no way these were the best.

The "Buddy Buddy" system.

[HoopS]

You know, they just might.

I mean you could definitely convince yourself of that if you ignore everything else.  In their semi-final matchup with Oregon, UNC shot fewer FTs and were whistled for more fouls than the Ducks.  In last night's game, UNC shot the same number of FTs as Gonzaga and were whistled for the same number of fouls.

Also, the focus is on Kennedy Meeks being out of bounds on the held ball, which he was.  But there was a play not long before that was wrongfully called out of bounds on UNC on an airballed Gonzaga three.  UNC should've had possession and a four point lead.  Instead, Gonzaga retained possession and hit a three pointer to pull within one.  There was another play where UNC eventually got called for a foul, but on the replay it was very evident that the Gonzaga player walked (badly) before being fouled. 

There were missed calls on both sides.  Last night the refs intervened way too often for both teams.  It wasn't some conspiracy to give UNC a championship.  UNC was a senior and junior laden team who overcame their best/most important player playing with two sprained ankles most of the tournament.  UNC had a roster chocked full of deep postseason experience and it paid off in their wins over us, Kentucky, Oregon, and Gonzaga.  It sucks that we lost to them.  We had them wobbling and were in a great position to deliver the final knockout blow.  Yes, the two calls at the end were questionable at best, but UNC still went on a 12-0 run to close the game.  It was a tough loss but we also dug ourselves an early 17-point hole to climb out of which is about the least ideal way to try and win a basketball game. 

the difference -- the airball out of bounds was a judgment call that was missed but didn't happen within the last couple minutes of the game when they could use replay to correct it. The Meeks play happened at a time in which replay should have been used to get it right and they didn't.

This makes two times where they benefitted even when the replay was supposed to be used to get it right, there was evidence, and it was gotten wrong anyway.

[Atlhogfan1]

Gonzaga didn't lose due to officiating.  They lost because NW-G was 4-14 from 2pt range and 4-8 from the line.  If he had average offensive game they may have had enough to have been in control down the stretch.  Karnowski 1-8.  Some shots challenged but he had 2 or 3 point blank horrible misses. 

[HoopS]

Gonzaga didn't lose due to officiating.  They lost because NW-G was 4-14 from 2pt range and 4-8 from the line.  If he had average offensive game they may have had enough to have been in control down the stretch.  Karnowski 1-8.  Some shots challenged but he had 2 or 3 point blank horrible misses. 

bad stats noted, they still got jobbed of the ball in a 1 point game with under a minute to play.

[East TN HAWG]

It was most definitely a flagrant foul.

Berry is going in the opposite direction from Karnowski until he is grabbed by the face/throat and PULLED in the opposite direction so hard that it changed the direction of Berry to the point he is jerked off his feet.

You could clearly see Karnowski's hand CLAMP down on Berry and not simply graze him as they passed. There was surprisingly little body contact between the two when the replay was shown. So much so that the broadcast team thought Berry stole the ball cleanly.

Karnowski didn't apologize because he thought he hadn't done anything. To me it was clear that he felt like Berry had stolen the ball and was heading for a possible run out and Karnowski was grabbing him to stop it. I don't think he intended to grab his face/throat though.

Shadow your correct.  The rules need to be changed where a referee can correct a bad call.  In my opinion, Berry did not foul on the play, but was called for it.  When they reviewed it, the refs probably thought whoops we just screwed up and America saw it.  Karnowski also did not commit a flagrant foul.  It was a common foul, but the refs could not call a common foul; it was call flagrant or nothing. 

A group in Kansas City, New York, somewhere should be reviewing the call not the guys on the court.  And they should have the ability to change to the correct call when it is obvious.  Part of the officials compensation plan should be a bonus measured by the overturned calls.   

[Jim Harris]

Does Few teach his team any set plays?

Seven minutes without a bucket can mean only one thing, he is lazy, needs to recruit a point guard, learn some in game coaching and make adjustments, stop being stubborn and fire some assistants!

Well played!

[Atlhogfan1]

bad stats noted, they still got jobbed of the ball in a 1 point game with under a minute to play.

Agreed it was a bad call at a crucial time to say the least.

[hogsanity]

there needs to be some ability for post play contact. this non displacing rule is crap. on defense the post should be able to arm bar the offense.

I think there should be close hand, hand checking. be able to put your wrist on a dribbler.

freedom of movement on cuts, is great.

the rules are bending like the nfl, getting to the point you cannot guard without fouling.

So in the post the defender should be able to push the offensive player out of established position? Why?

Why should the defense be able to use their hands to push the ballhandler in a certain direction?

[phadedhawg]

The refs, or the players actions resulting in calls by refs, did kill the flow of the 2nd half for huge stretches of the game. 

Though the number of fouls called were roughly equal, Gonzaga had the worse end of it because of who they got in foul trouble. 

A couple of the 4 pt play opportunities seemed a bit iffy if worthy of a call.  There was very light contact after the ball was away.  Often times refs let that go if it comes after the shot and the defender is under control.

[hogsanity]

The refs, or the players actions resulting in calls by refs, did kill the flow of the 2nd half for huge stretches of the game. 

Though the number of fouls called were roughly equal, Gonzaga had the worse end of it because of who they got in foul trouble. 

A couple of the 4 pt play opportunities seemed a bit iffy if worthy of a call.  There was very light contact after the ball was away.  Often times refs let that go if it comes after the shot and the defender is under control.

The flow of the 2nd half was atrocious. Collins, for the Zags, commented on how he had foul trouble all year, but seemed to never learn from it.

Should the refs let that go, it is a foul by the book. Again, to me that goes back to the ever rotating set up with 2 or 3 man crews in basketball. What one ref deems as a play on, the other calls a foul.

[onebadrubi]

Go back and look at the fouls called, every one of them was a foul under the rules in the book. Most had a lot of contact. This is the kind of game you get when they start calling the pushing and shoving and hacking most fans whine about when it is not called. Mark Few said last night he thought the game was well called on both ends. He said both teams were forcing it inside and both teams guards play downhill. Collins, one of the Zags big men said he has had foul trouble all season, he said " you'd think I would learn, but I guess I just don't ".

What I am tired of is the reviews on fouls. The call on Karnowski where he gets fouled ( which was called on NC ) , then in the scrap for the ball before the whistle his hand gets around the head of the much shorter NC player was nothing in real speed. But when they go to slow motion it looks much worse and he gets a f1.

Holy crap batman... You really just tried to take up for that last night?  YOU ARE COMPLETELY FULL OF YOURSELF AND POOOOO!   There were fouls and other calls called both ways that were woefully INCORRECT. 

Collins walked from the 3 point line but called a foul under the basket on a guy that wasn't even involved. 

Berry gets all ball underneath big K (not even going to try his last name). 

You are just trying to play devils advocate, but you went to far here and proved you are incapable of unbiased thinking

[hogsanity]

Holy crap batman... You really just tried to take up for that last night?  YOU ARE COMPLETELY FULL OF YOURSELF AND POOOOO!   There were fouls and other calls called both ways that were woefully INCORRECT. 

Collins walked from the 3 point line but called a foul under the basket on a guy that wasn't even involved. 

Berry gets all ball underneath big K (not even going to try his last name). 

You are just trying to play devils advocate, but you went to far here and proved you are incapable of unbiased thinking

So wait, the refs made bad calls AGAINST NC? I have been told for two weeks the refs were in the tank for the tarheels.

[onebadrubi]

So wait, the refs made bad calls AGAINST NC? I have been told for two weeks the refs were in the tank for the tarheels.

Don't move the field goals here.  As stated, the refs blew calls going BOTH ways.  You are so involved in taking up for your peers, you can't see the Forrest for the trees.

[ShadowHawg]

there needs to be some ability for post play contact. this non displacing rule is crap. on defense the post should be able to arm bar the offense.

I think there should be close hand, hand checking. be able to put your wrist on a dribbler.

freedom of movement on cuts, is great.

the rules are bending like the nfl, getting to the point you cannot guard without fouling.

Especially if they are going to let Karnowski displace the defender for 8 to 10 feet while backing down to get a shot.

[onebadrubi]

Especially if they are going to let Karnowski displace the defender for 8 to 10 feet while backing down to get a shot.

This is what I can't stand. An offensive player can move a guy 10-12 feet, but if a defensive player even stands a guy straight up its a whistle.

[hogsanity]

This is what I can't stand. An offensive player can move a guy 10-12 feet, but if a defensive player even stands a guy straight up its a whistle.

That is the one call above all I can not understand. Actually I do, it is all in the name of offense. Fans love offense. It is why most football rule changes the last 2 decades have been to help the offense. It is why MLB lowered the mound, juiced the ball, made parks smaller, and now are trying to get the strike zone back up above the shins, all to help the offense.  It is why the NHL made some changes the last decade. It is why college bball cracked down on hand checks, hip checking cutters, and lowered the shot clock. 

When I was playing in th HS, our coach told us football is a collision sport, basketball is a contact sport. When you have 10 large humans confined to a space the size of a front court in basketball, there is going to be contact, the problem is no one can decide how much and where they want to allow it. Right now, it is a game played where they want little contact outside the lane, but once the ball goes in the lane, they let a ton of stuff go, because if not it would be a foul fest the likes of which no one would watch.

[niels_boar]

Especially if they are going to let Karnowski displace the defender for 8 to 10 feet while backing down to get a shot.

Yes!  When a defender is stationary and a post player just knocks him back a foot, how is that not a charge?

On the flagrant I agree with an above comment that the refs were correcting their screwup.  Berry didn't foul, and Karnowski most certainly did.  On reviews it's silly that the refs can't correct an obvious mistake, even if the mistake did not trigger the review. Under the circumstances I thought the refs did the right thing.  It was arguably a flagrant, but regardless it was the closest that they could come to getting it right.  Berry still got a foul that he did not deserve, and the Zags got two points that they didn't deserve.  UNC still got the short end of what should have been the correct call.  At least UNC got their FTAs, and Karnowski got a foul.

I don't know if it is an artifact of the telecast, but I swear you can hear the whistle sometimes before a driver even gets to a defender in the lane.

[010HogFan]

Nobody on this board seems to understand the effect refs can have on a game just by one call here or one call there over the course of the game. Death by a thousand cuts. Gonzaga had multiple times when they were up 7-8 points and poised to pull away only to incur an awful foul call or something equally terrible that killed the flow of the game and their momentum. and Carolina took advantage of this every time. The refs kept North Carolina in the game and then called it equally bad on both sides once they were back in the game. It's the same thing they did to us.

[Hogz87]

Nobody on this board seems to understand the effect refs can have on a game just by one call here or one call there over the course of the game. Death by a thousand cuts. Gonzaga had multiple times when they were up 7-8 points and poised to pull away only to incur an awful foul call or something equally terrible that killed the flow of the game and their momentum. and Carolina took advantage of this every time. The refs kept North Carolina in the game and then called it equally bad on both sides once they were back in the game. It's the same thing they did to us.

I'm assuming you're talking about in the first half when Gonzaga got up by seven?  Can you please provide some specific examples of one or two an awful call that killed their flow and momentum? 

Because I always get a kick out these types of posts when people make accusations using generalities for their argument of one team getting blatant favoritism and it's the only reason that team stayed in the game.

[hoglady]

The number of fouls and neither team being able to get into any type of flow or rhythm had a lot to do with the poor shooting stats for both teams.
I absolutely hated the fouls called on the bigs when they were trying to establish position - those were called on both teams and were really unnecessary.
Heck, I felt like I was watching an SEC whistle fest game.

[Breems]

hogsanity refs for something or is buddy buddy with a ref, right?

[010HogFan]

I'm assuming you're talking about in the first half when Gonzaga got up by seven?  Can you please provide some specific examples of one or two an awful call that killed their flow and momentum? 

Because I always get a kick out these types of posts when people make accusations using generalities for their argument of one team getting blatant favoritism and it's the only reason that team stayed in the game.

Like I'm going to go back and do that. All I know is just about every time Gonzaga went on a run to stretch the lead there was some awful call that killed the run. The officials made it about letting everyone know they were on the floor last night instead of letting the players dictate the outcome. Just look at the bad calls on Collins. I remember another one in particular where the Gonzaga defender went vertical, defending the shot beautifully after a big block and was called for a foul for going straight up. To make the position that refs' calls and the timing of the calls have no outcome on momentum is just wrong. There's a reason millions of people think the refs helped North Carolina throughout the tournament and most have no dog in the fight. "Program calls" are very real.

[Little Lady Back]

hogsanity refs for something or is buddy buddy with a ref, right?

Why would you ever ask that Breems? 

[Hogz87]

Like I'm going to go back and do that. All I know is just about every time Gonzaga went on a run to stretch the lead there was some awful call that killed the run. The officials made it about letting everyone know they were on the floor last night instead of letting the players dictate the outcome. Just look at the bad calls on Collins. I remember another one in particular where the Gonzaga defender went vertical, defending the shot beautifully after a big block and was called for a foul for going straight up. To make the position that refs' calls and the timing of the calls have no outcome on momentum is just wrong. There's a reason millions of people think the refs helped North Carolina throughout the tournament and most have no dog in the fight. "Program calls" are very real.

There wasn't.  First, the biggest they ever "stretched" their lead to was seven points.  I can remember only two possessions where they really had a chance to extend their lead past seven points and one of those they just missed a wide-open three pointer from the corner.  If you can't point out at least one or two specific calls from the first half that were so egregiously awful and single-handily kept Gonzaga from extending their lead beyond a whopping seven points, then I'm going to have a hard time taking you seriously. 

"Program Calls" may have some merit, but so does the fact that the general sports fan population is just naturally prejudiced against blue bloods in college sports.  I have issues with some of the blue blood programs, too (namely Duke and Kentucky).  Any given year that any of those teams (Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas) win a national championship you can almost guarantee fans of other schools will look for any missed call that might have aided the blue blood team and point to some ref conspiracy as the reason that blue blood won it all.

I never said refs calls can't and don't change momentum.  I'm just not sure you have any clue what you're talking about in regards to last night, specifically the part where Gonzaga spent, like, two minutes of game time trying to "blow open" a 7-point lead in which I know of multiple possessions they just missed shots with the lead sitting on seven.  I can think of a few times last night, in the midst of the chaos where the refs were calling every little bit of contact in the lane, where Joel Berry drove to the basket, drew enough contact to get knocked to the floor, and the refs swallowed their whistle. 


The refs very much were too involved in last night's game, particularly the second half.  But it benefited both teams.  The focus is on Kennedy Meeks being out of bounds on that held ball but no one seems to want to really talk about the possession where the ball was wrongly called out of bounds on UNC on an airballed three pointer that gave Gonzaga an extra possession in which they ended up hitting a three.  Or the point in the game where a Gonzaga player committed a clear inbound violation late in the game by stepping well over the line (there's a picture of this one out there). 

I'm sometimes all for a good 'ole fashioned "(insert blue blood program name here) only won because the refs cheated!" rabble rousing, especially if it involves Kentucky, but last night's game was pretty poorly officiated on both sides at different points. 

[HoopS]

Again. Perhaps you ignored my post.

The Meeks call was reviewable. The other wasn't.  Missed calls happen. Obviously bad ones that are reviewwble like that one, shouldn't be missed. That was a HUGE missed call inside of a minute that could have and should have been corrected. But wasn't. Just like our game. Favoring the national champion and blue blood.

Intentional or not, key calls when they can use instant replay isn't acceptable. I didn't ask for the use of replay, but if they're going to do it they need to do it right.

[onebadrubi]

hogsanity refs for something or is buddy buddy with a ref, right?

He's blown a whistle a time or two.

[12247]

I thought the refs let both teams play the first half and then tried to shut them down n the second half.  Nothing worse than setting up a game one way and then completely changing midway.  Confusion.  I wanted the Zags to win and the big 7 footer alone, missed 6 or 7---- 3 footers throughout the game or the Zags very well could have won.  I believe the calls in the second half favored UNC.  You get your 3 big Guys in foul trouble early and you must change your game.  The refs got them in trouble just a bit more than the UNC bigs.  Just enough.  I suggest the refs might have beared down a little more for UNC if they were needed.  They weren't.  Slowing the Zags bigs early in the second half was plenty.

[hogsanity]

hogsanity refs for something or is buddy buddy with a ref, right?

I ref, so unlike most here, I actually know what it is like to have to decide when to call a foul and when not to do so.

Like I'm going to go back and do that. All I know is just about every time Gonzaga went on a run to stretch the lead there was some awful call that killed the run.

The it should be really easy to go back and find those calls, since Gonzaga only went on 2, maybe 3 "runs" the entire game.

[onebadrubi]

What age groups up do you ref? 

[Kevin]

So in the post the defender should be able to push the offensive player out of established position? Why?

Why should the defense be able to use their hands to push the ballhandler in a certain direction?

I will answer the post question although it is not what I said.
The post defender should be able to arm bar the offensive post player when I a 3/4 post defensive position, so to be able to hold is ground. The post offensive player should be able to move his feet toward the defender to be able to hold his ground. The offensive post should be able to move his feet to gain position, which there will be body contact.

Hand checking-notice I said be able to use a wrist on the defender, this way the defender cannot direct the offensive player. I don't want open hand on the offensive play

defense needs some body contact to be able to defend.

post offense needs some body contact to be able to gain position.

I don't blame the ref's for Monday night. the are trying to call the game the way they are told. I want the interpretation of the rules changed.

[Kevin]

I ref, so unlike most here, I actually know what it is like to have to decide when to call a foul and when not to do so.

The it should be really easy to go back and find those calls, since Gonzaga only went on 2, maybe 3 "runs" the entire game.

you being a ref, also know how to blow a lot of calls. 

[hogsanity]

What age groups up do you ref? 

Scholastic ages. Our association gets 7th through varsity. Some in our association also do Juco and some d2 games. I have not worked anything above varsity yet, but I have not been calling near as long as some of the guys have.

[azhog10]

Not what I was talking about. I said I do not like the reviews for these calls because they get to look at those is slow motion, from varying angles, yet they do not do this for other violations. What I really do not like is they can go back in time and do it. Like in the women's semi-final with Uconn and MSU. With under a minute to go in OT, on a steal by MSU, there is a no call. over 30 seconds later, after MSU has their possession, they go review, call a FL, and give UCONN 2 shots and the ball.

For me, if a foul is called, and they want to go look at it and see if it was a common foul of a f1 or f2, fine, but if nothing s called at the time, do not go back in time and call it later.

They should also be able to wipe a foul out if they see in replay that there wasn't a foul committed. Berry did not foul him, if they are going to review the foul they didn't call then they should review the foul they did call.

[azhog10]

Again. Perhaps you ignored my post.

The Meeks call was reviewable. The other wasn't.  Missed calls happen. Obviously bad ones that are reviewwble like that one, shouldn't be missed. That was a HUGE missed call inside of a minute that could have and should have been corrected. But wasn't. Just like our game. Favoring the national champion and blue blood.

Intentional or not, key calls when they can use instant replay isn't acceptable. I didn't ask for the use of replay, but if they're going to do it they need to do it right.

Also there is a reason calls in the final two minutes are reviewed. Obviously every possession counts, but over the course of the game there are enough possessions to have a chance to rebound from a bad call. In the final two minutes one missed or blown call can, and will do you in.

[azhog10]

I ref, so unlike most here, I actually know what it is like to have to decide when to call a foul and when not to do so.

You may know what it's like to have to decide when to call a foul. That doesn't mean that decision was correct. I've seen a lot of officials in my time and plenty of them blow their whistle, and some of them regret it after they did.........

[hogsanity]

You may know what it's like to have to decide when to call a foul. That doesn't mean that decision was correct. I've seen a lot of officials in my time and plenty of them blow their whistle, and some of them regret it after they did.........

I do not think there is a ref alive that has not had that feeling. But that is far different than the things thrown around here of intentional bias, or down right corruption.

They should also be able to wipe a foul out if they see in replay that there wasn't a foul committed. Berry did not foul him, if they are going to review the foul they didn't call then they should review the foul they did call.

The only thing with that is that coaches would be screaming for reviews of everything. How would the refs decide which calls to review and which ones not to? I liked the old system where they could look at video for timing issues and to see if anyone left the bench in a fight. None of this going back after the fact and calling f1 or f2 violations when the other team has had a possession in between.

[onebadrubi]

I ref, so unlike most here, I actually know what it is like to have to decide when to call a foul and when not to do so.

The it should be really easy to go back and find those calls, since Gonzaga only went on 2, maybe 3 "runs" the entire game.

There are pee wee football coaches as well, that does not mean they are on the same level as Bielema when it comes to decision making.  I can't believe we even have to go over this.

[hogsanity]

There are pee wee football coaches as well, that does not mean they are on the same level as Bielema when it comes to decision making.  I can't believe we even have to go over this.

I never claimed I was on the same level as a college ref, matter of fact I have made that point clearly in other threads that i am not.  That said. I still have more first hand experience of having to call fouls/walks/double dribbles/ etc than most here, yet they act like they know exactly what every call SHOULD be. They know when refs are intentionally helping one team over another, and when they are just down right cheating.

[010HogFan]

There wasn't.  First, the biggest they ever "stretched" their lead to was seven points.  I can remember only two possessions where they really had a chance to extend their lead past seven points and one of those they just missed a wide-open three pointer from the corner.  If you can't point out at least one or two specific calls from the first half that were so egregiously awful and single-handily kept Gonzaga from extending their lead beyond a whopping seven points, then I'm going to have a hard time taking you seriously. 

"Program Calls" may have some merit, but so does the fact that the general sports fan population is just naturally prejudiced against blue bloods in college sports.  I have issues with some of the blue blood programs, too (namely Duke and Kentucky).  Any given year that any of those teams (Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Kansas) win a national championship you can almost guarantee fans of other schools will look for any missed call that might have aided the blue blood team and point to some ref conspiracy as the reason that blue blood won it all.

I never said refs calls can't and don't change momentum.  I'm just not sure you have any clue what you're talking about in regards to last night, specifically the part where Gonzaga spent, like, two minutes of game time trying to "blow open" a 7-point lead in which I know of multiple possessions they just missed shots with the lead sitting on seven.  I can think of a few times last night, in the midst of the chaos where the refs were calling every little bit of contact in the lane, where Joel Berry drove to the basket, drew enough contact to get knocked to the floor, and the refs swallowed their whistle. 


The refs very much were too involved in last night's game, particularly the second half.  But it benefited both teams.  The focus is on Kennedy Meeks being out of bounds on that held ball but no one seems to want to really talk about the possession where the ball was wrongly called out of bounds on UNC on an airballed three pointer that gave Gonzaga an extra possession in which they ended up hitting a three.  Or the point in the game where a Gonzaga player committed a clear inbound violation late in the game by stepping well over the line (there's a picture of this one out there). 

I'm sometimes all for a good 'ole fashioned "(insert blue blood program name here) only won because the refs cheated!" rabble rousing, especially if it involves Kentucky, but last night's game was pretty poorly officiated on both sides at different points. 

Like I said, I'm not going to go back and review the game play for play to try and make a point on a message board, but the casual observer could see over the course of the tournament that Carolina had a longer leash than their opponent. I'm not saying it was intentionally called that way every time, but it is what it is. Meeks was running over people the whole tournament, going over the back for rebounds. Berry was flailing around on the floor for half the tournament, flopping into people and drawing fouls by throwing his body to the floor. People talk about us playing sloppy, but my goodness North Carolina was able to win the championship playing a terrible brand of basketball down the stretch.

[hogsanity]

Like I said, I'm not going to go back and review the game play for play to try and make a point on a message board,

No, its much easier to make a broad claim and provide not facts to back it up.

People talk about us playing sloppy, but my goodness North Carolina was able to win the championship playing a terrible brand of basketball down the stretch.

Now here we may have some common ground. College basketball is just ugly right now for the most part. Players still can not adjust to the freedom of movement rules, they still try to draw charges under the basket in the restricted area, play in the lane turning back into anything goes. Teams like Virginia are just ugly to watch. SC was ugly most of the year ( please do not confuse ugly with not being effective, both won a lot of games being ugly ) FLA is not the prettiest team to watch either sometimes.