O-line improvement

[snoop hawgy hawg]

 Do you think Our offensive line gives up over/under 15 sacs next year? Give your answer and explain why if you would like...

[factchecker]

It really is hard to tell until you see live rounds.

Losing Skipper at left could hurt but Skipper's height worked against him some times.

Colton Jackson is athletic enough to play left.  He is quick physically but he needs to be quick mentally as well.

Froholdt is good once he gets his hands on you but he struggled with any type of stunt or basic swim/rip move last season.

It's nice having a future NFL player at center.  Ragnow is awesome.

Raulerson/Gibson - I fully expect Gibson to earn his way back.  He is legit.

Brian Wallace is similar to Froholdt in the fact that once he gets his hands on you = you are dead.  If he works on his kick slide then we will be fine.

A factor that nobody talks about is the improvement of our running backs pass blocking.  RWIII was coming off a neck injury and Whaley was a true freshman.  Both backs should be better at picking up pass pro.

Our tight ends have to do a better job of chipping before releasing.  We really missed a Derby type physical presence at tight end last season.  Derby would shoulder the defender in the gut before releasing.  I hope Lunney gets our young tight ends to be physical this season.

[tophawg19]

i think it's easily over 20 but that isn't bad in the SEC . also some are QB sacks, caused by QB error  and some are coverage sacks. Not all are on the O-line

[Bacons Rebellion]

Over.

As far as I can tell, we're still going to be a passing team, and if you pass, you're going to take some sacks.

[theFlyingHog]

CBB seems to think Froholdt will be a monster this season. That helps. While I liked Skipper, I felt like he may have been a bit slow in the feet for LT.

Plus, our coaches(OC and OL) have had a lot more time together to mesh things out and get on the same page. That has to be worth something.

[bennyl08]

Over.

2008: 1 team in the SEC gave up <15 sacks, and that was Kentucky. We gave up 42 that year.
2009: Again, only 1 team gave up <15 sacks, this time UGA. For the record, so far, both teams gave up 12. We gave up 25.
2010: This time OM was the only team to give up <15 sacks (14 total) and we gave up 28.
2011: Nobody gave up <15 sacks. Lowest was Bama with 17, we gave up 28.
2012: 1 Team (tenner) gave up <15 sacks (a whopping 8, this was Pittman's year with them), we actually gave up the 2nd least that year surprisingly with 18.
2013: We are the only team with <15 sacks (Pittman is our OL coach) with 8 sacks, Tenner gives up exactly 15.
2014: We give up 14 sacks, Auburn is in 2nd this time giving up exactly 15.
2015: Again, we give up 14 sacks, UGA at exactly 15.
2016: Only Mizzou gives up <15 (14) sacks. We give up 35.

I do this to point to the absurdity of using 15 sacks as a benchmark for an OL for pass blocking. To be clear, not calling the OP absurd as I do not know the motivation for the post. <15 sacks is almost guaranteed to get you 1st place in sacks allowed. If OP wants to know the over under on us giving up the fewest sacks total in the conference, odds are good to take the over. If OP is trying to come up with some threshold value for what makes a good OL or not, it is a very poor benchmark.

For example, Bama's OL. Typically regarded as the benchmark OL in the conference. 5 years in the record with 20-29 sacks, 3 years with 16-19 sacks, and their worst year in 2010 with 30+ sacks. They have never had 15 sacks or fewer since 2008.

Which goes to really illustrate how sacks allowed is not a very good measure of an OL. For example, BA greatly helped deflate the number of sacks the line gave up by quickly getting rid of the ball and throwing it into the stands if it wasn't quickly there. You put any other qb we've had over the past 30 years under center during that time and we give up over 20 sacks easily.

Which brings us to Austin. In 2013 when we only gave up 8 sacks, we put in senior Austin Allen on that team, we probably give up 20+ sacks. Why? The OL is giving the same protection, but Austin is going want to give the receivers more of a chance. Also, having him at qb we'd have passed the ball more than when we had a RsSo Brandon Allen at the time. Notice that in 14 and 15 we gave up 14 sacks instead of the 8 in 2013 despite our OL play being much better in those years.

[snoop hawgy hawg]

Over.

2008: 1 team in the SEC gave up <15 sacks, and that was Kentucky. We gave up 42 that year.
2009: Again, only 1 team gave up <15 sacks, this time UGA. For the record, so far, both teams gave up 12. We gave up 25.
2010: This time OM was the only team to give up <15 sacks (14 total) and we gave up 28.
2011: Nobody gave up <15 sacks. Lowest was Bama with 17, we gave up 28.
2012: 1 Team (tenner) gave up <15 sacks (a whopping 8, this was Pittman's year with them), we actually gave up the 2nd least that year surprisingly with 18.
2013: We are the only team with <15 sacks (Pittman is our OL coach) with 8 sacks, Tenner gives up exactly 15.
2014: We give up 14 sacks, Auburn is in 2nd this time giving up exactly 15.
2015: Again, we give up 14 sacks, UGA at exactly 15.
2016: Only Mizzou gives up <15 (14) sacks. We give up 35.

I do this to point to the absurdity of using 15 sacks as a benchmark for an OL for pass blocking. To be clear, not calling the OP absurd as I do not know the motivation for the post. <15 sacks is almost guaranteed to get you 1st place in sacks allowed. If OP wants to know the over under on us giving up the fewest sacks total in the conference, odds are good to take the over. If OP is trying to come up with some threshold value for what makes a good OL or not, it is a very poor benchmark.

For example, Bama's OL. Typically regarded as the benchmark OL in the conference. 5 years in the record with 20-29 sacks, 3 years with 16-19 sacks, and their worst year in 2010 with 30+ sacks. They have never had 15 sacks or fewer since 2008.

Which goes to really illustrate how sacks allowed is not a very good measure of an OL. For example, BA greatly helped deflate the number of sacks the line gave up by quickly getting rid of the ball and throwing it into the stands if it wasn't quickly there. You put any other qb we've had over the past 30 years under center during that time and we give up over 20 sacks easily.

Which brings us to Austin. In 2013 when we only gave up 8 sacks, we put in senior Austin Allen on that team, we probably give up 20+ sacks. Why? The OL is giving the same protection, but Austin is going want to give the receivers more of a chance. Also, having him at qb we'd have passed the ball more than when we had a RsSo Brandon Allen at the time. Notice that in 14 and 15 we gave up 14 sacks instead of the 8 in 2013 despite our OL play being much better in those years.

I used 15 because I feel like it is the benchmark for an elite PASS Blocking o-line...so im basically asking with the talent and experience we currently have. Do you think our OL will go back to being the class of the sec ( top 3 o-line in conference)?

[MuskogeeHogFan]

It really is hard to tell until you see live rounds.

Losing Skipper at left could hurt but Skipper's height worked against him some times.

Colton Jackson is athletic enough to play left.  He is quick physically but he needs to be quick mentally as well.

Froholdt is good once he gets his hands on you but he struggled with any type of stunt or basic swim/rip move last season.

It's nice having a future NFL player at center.  Ragnow is awesome.

Raulerson/Gibson - I fully expect Gibson to earn his way back.  He is legit.

Brian Wallace is similar to Froholdt in the fact that once he gets his hands on you = you are dead.  If he works on his kick slide then we will be fine.

A factor that nobody talks about is the improvement of our running backs pass blocking.  RWIII was coming off a neck injury and Whaley was a true freshman.  Both backs should be better at picking up pass pro.

Our tight ends have to do a better job of chipping before releasing.  We really missed a Derby type physical presence at tight end last season.  Derby would shoulder the defender in the gut before releasing.  I hope Lunney gets our young tight ends to be physical this season.

And need it be mentioned, the QB has some control over the number of Sacks/Pressures that he gets by either listening or failing to listen to that clock ticking in his head. You can't just stand back there and hold the ball for longer periods of time. He has 3-4 seconds to release the ball whether attempting a completion or throwing it away, or even tucking the ball and taking off.

The Receiver group (WR, TE & RB) also have a responsibility to find an open spot to present themselves as a potential target and all within those 3 seconds or so.

The O-Line "should" be improved but there isn't any doubt that they will also need the help of the QB and Receivers to lower the number of Sacks and Pressures we take in 2017.

[jgphillips3]

I'm taking the over, but I think 18-22 will be the number if the line gels.

[hawgfan4life]

That list makes me realize just how good Pittman was at pass protection coaching.  GA will probably be that team this year.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I'm taking the over, but I think 18-22 will be the number if the line gels.

This should be a year that the O-Line comes together earlier than in the past. Here is how we start out in terms of returning career Starts and career games.

Player                Career Starts    Career Experience
Ragnow                     26                    35
Raulerson                   13                    34
Froholdt                     13                    23
Wallace                      10                    15
Gibson                        5                     16
Jackson                      3                     12
Merrick                       0                      9
Rogers                        0                      6
Ramirez                       0                      4
                                70                    154

[jm]

Over- simply due to the number of passes in the modern game.

[justmakeit2thebcs]

That list makes me realize just how good Pittman was at pass protection coaching.  GA will probably be that team this year.

Nothing but three step drops an you probably won't give up any sacks.  5 step drop, keep the full back and TE as blockers, not very many sacks.   How about rolling the QB all the time....very few sacks.  Run the ball 80% of the time?   I can limit sacks without any "improvement" to the OL.   

[elksnort]

How many yards did our running backs run for last season? RWIII got a 1,000 yards did he not?

Even if this is the case, I still think that our run block can improve, especially in the red zone or short yardage. If the run blocking will improve then this will certainly allow for more play action, thus aiding the pass blocking.

Our team went as our offensive line went last season.

[Styflin]

I am still not confident in the offensive line. Easily over 15 sacks.

[daBoar]

Why don't we sacrifice a TE and insert a 3rd OT, that should reduce sacks substantially.

[OLjunkie]

I am still not confident in the offensive line. Easily over 15 sacks.

OLine takes a lot of heat for sacks.  You really have to know what was supposed to happen before you can assign that blame. I would estimate that half of the sacks last year were attributed to 2 factors. 1) the backs not picking up the right guy. 2) Austin holding the ball too long.  As far as run blocking, you have to audible out of bad plays.  Take a look that this formation...



We ran inside left and were stopped.  Austin would have walked in had he taken one step right and kept the ball himself.  Alternatively, a sweep left would have worked as they had 10 in the box.

[justmakeit2thebcs]

Last year some top teams sacks given up

Clemson - 20
Oklahoma - 21
Michigan - 22
Penn St 24
Bama - 24
Fla St  - 35
Wisc - 24
Washington - 26
Louisville - 47
Houston -37
Ohio St - 28
Stanford - 34

And the GA bulldogs  -24

[bennyl08]

I used 15 because I feel like it is the benchmark for an elite PASS Blocking o-line...so im basically asking with the talent and experience we currently have. Do you think our OL will go back to being the class of the sec ( top 3 o-line in conference)?

We could be top 3 and still give up 20 sacks, though.

Granted, I also can't remember a time when we were the class of the SEC for the OL. QB pressure is a much better indicator than sacks for how the OL did as far as pass blocking, but is not a readily available statistic to look at. For example, compare and contrast our pass blocking in 2013 vs 2016. As fas as sacks go, it is 8 vs 35. However, BA was under pressure from the defense on most of his dropbacks, and honestly, given the choice b/w which OL I'd prefer to have, I'd take the 2016 OL. They difference b/w the 8 and 35 sacks had really nothing to do with the quality of the OL play, but the faith that the coaches had in the qb, and the willingness to hold on to the ball a bit longer from the qb.

There were times Austin held on too long for sure. However, a fair amount of the sacks he took weren't coverage sacks, but somebody missing an assignment snaps which means that he was on the ground within 2 seconds of the snap.

As for style of play, that comes down to preference. In BA's early years, IMO they were too cautious. I thought Austin did a mostly good job with the internal clock, other than making some rookie mistakes to be expected from a first year starter. However, I'm a fan of the gunslinger qb mentality. Leads to more sacks and more interceptions, but also more big plays and more third down conversions too. So long as they don't make stupid mistakes on when to hold on a bit longer or make bad decisions on where to throw, I'm okay with some risky throws where you trust your arm and some gutsy staying in the pocket a bit long to try and make a play.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Do you think Our offensive line gives up over/under 15 sacs next year? Give your answer and explain why if you would like...

Hard to say.

In 2013 we attempted just 301 passes and allowed just 8 sacks. 1 in every 37.6 pass attempts.

2014-359 passes, 14 Sacks Allowed, 1 in every 25.6 passes

2015-374 passes, 14 Sacks Allowed, 1 in every 26.7 passes

2016-406 passes, 35 Sacks Allowed, 1 in every 11.6 passes

The conference average over the last 4 years has been 1 sack allowed in every 16 passes, so up until last season, we have been well above that average.

JMO, but I think that we need to get back in the range of only allowing 1 sack in every 20 to 25 passing attempts and if we can do that, we will be in good shape.

[OneTuskOverTheLine™]

It really is hard to tell until you see live rounds.

Losing Skipper at left could hurt but Skipper's height worked against him some times.

Colton Jackson is athletic enough to play left.  He is quick physically but he needs to be quick mentally as well.

Froholdt is good once he gets his hands on you but he struggled with any type of stunt or basic swim/rip move last season.

It's nice having a future NFL player at center.  Ragnow is awesome.

Raulerson/Gibson - I fully expect Gibson to earn his way back.  He is legit.

Brian Wallace is similar to Froholdt in the fact that once he gets his hands on you = you are dead.  If he works on his kick slide then we will be fine.

A factor that nobody talks about is the improvement of our running backs pass blocking.  RWIII was coming off a neck injury and Whaley was a true freshman.  Both backs should be better at picking up pass pro.

Our tight ends have to do a better job of chipping before releasing.  We really missed a Derby type physical presence at tight end last season.  Derby would shoulder the defender in the gut before releasing.  I hope Lunney gets our young tight ends to be physical this season.

I agree with everything you said, especially AJ Derby; but I believe Froholdt's problems were due to thinking too much and reacting slowly. I have noticed the coaches are praising him highly this year so far...

[Hog Fan...DOH!]

That list makes me realize just how good Pittman was at pass protection coaching.  GA will probably be that team this year.

He also had some nice players with experience.  But yes, he's a great coach.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Seems to me that the biggest improvement that the O-Line can make is in reducing the number of negative yardage plays (sacks and TFLA). I think that we can all agree that the QB, RB's and WR's all play a role in this as well but it is the O-Line that receives the vast majority of the criticism when it comes to negative yardage plays, whether fairly or not. The offensive plays below represent a total of all rushing and passing plays.

             Off Plays       Neg Yd Plays        Neg Yds      1 Neg Play Every       Neg Yds/Play
2013          775                 53                  243                  14.6                      4.6
2014          916                 76                  313                  12.1                      4.1
2015          886                 74                  287                  12.0                      3.9
2016          923                122                  668                   7.6                      5.5

It is difficult enough to string together successful offensive scoring drives in the SEC without helping the defense by having a lot more negative yardage plays than you usually have. Add to that a defense that had it's worst year in decades and we were probably lucky to have won 7 games last year. On the other hand, look at just how close we were to winning 9-10 games last year, even with horribly bad numbers like you see above.

This team may be a lot better than we think it might be. Eliminate an uncharacteristic number of negative yardage plays and we probably end up being better in the RZ and score more points. And, if the defense improves at all (which I think that it will) we may find this team winning more games than we expect in 2017.