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Author Topic: Basketball replay flaw  (Read 2185 times)

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ShadowHawg

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Basketball replay flaw
« on: March 20, 2017, 08:59:23 am »

You can't let the people who make the call on the floor review their own calls. They take ownership over their call and are less likely to be truly objective when reviewing it.
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hoglady

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 09:03:06 am »

Good point.
I still for the life of me can't figure out what they were looking at on Macon's shot.
It was really pretty clear the NC player touched the ball - it wasn't even questionable.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 09:07:18 am »

Good point.
I still for the life of me can't figure out what they were looking at on Macon's shot.
It was really pretty clear the NC player touched the ball - it wasn't even questionable.
How many times all season has he missed one that short?  Defender got a finger on it and that's all it took.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 09:10:23 am »

Good point.
I still for the life of me can't figure out what they were looking at on Macon's shot.
It was really pretty clear the NC player touched the ball - it wasn't even questionable.

The referee closest to the shot was telling the guy who called it out of bounds it had been tipped. The guy that called it North Carolina's ball was arguing and shaking his head before they went to the monitor. He was on the baseline so it wasn't even his call to begin with. He certainly shouldn't have been part of the review process.
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3kgthog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 09:13:10 am »

I'm more upset about the Beard shot clock violation that wasn't. We got that rebound with 2-3 guys that had a clear path to the basket.
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Jackrabbit Hog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 09:14:30 am »

Are the refs seeing the same replay shots that we the TV viewers are seeing?  I know that in the NFL that is not the case.  But yesterday, as I recall, the first two or three replays showed seemed to indicate the defender grazed the ball as it left Macon's hands, but I will accept that they weren't conclusive.  HOWEVER, coming back from the break, there was a super slow-mo shot with a tight picture of the ball, and you could clearly see the deflection.  Unfortunately, I think by that time the refs had already made up their minds, so I don't even know if they saw that replay.
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djgaffer

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 09:20:24 am »

I don't agree that they can't be objective about reviewing their own calls.  If asked, virtually every one of them would prefer that the call be right and that they don't want to be the deciding factor in the game.  That said, I would like to see calls being reviewed from an off site location because of the following:

1)  While the technology is pretty good, the referees are essentially looking at the replay on a 19" computer monitor.  Having a much larger HD screen would provide more clarity, but you obviously can't put that at the scorer's table. 
2)  The referees don't always have access to the same views on replay that the public sees on TV.  There have been multiple times the view on TV shows something clearly, but the referee doesn't see that angle on his review.  The result is a lot of "how can they not see that"s when in fact they were looking at something totally different.  I'm not saying that was the case on the Macon 3, but it happens more than you'd imagine.

Having a dedicated replay official away from the table or even in a command center would help some of that. 
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HawgWild

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 09:20:50 am »

Good point.
I still for the life of me can't figure out what they were looking at on Macon's shot.
It was really pretty clear the NC player touched the ball - it wasn't even questionable.

The tip by the NC player was oh so slight. I told my wife it was much easier to see on our 55" set than what they were using courtside.
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djgaffer

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 09:21:59 am »

Are the refs seeing the same replay shots that we the TV viewers are seeing?  I know that in the NFL that is not the case.  But yesterday, as I recall, the first two or three replays showed seemed to indicate the defender grazed the ball as it left Macon's hands, but I will accept that they weren't conclusive.  HOWEVER, coming back from the break, there was a super slow-mo shot with a tight picture of the ball, and you could clearly see the deflection.  Unfortunately, I think by that time the refs had already made up their minds, so I don't even know if they saw that replay.

Just posted about this.  They don't.  And it's a problem.  But there is no way to know if that was the case here. 
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 09:32:27 am »

I don't agree that they can't be objective about reviewing their own calls.  If asked, virtually every one of them would prefer that the call be right and that they don't want to be the deciding factor in the game. 

I don't think you understand how hard it is for people to admit they are wrong about anything much less a pivotal call made in front of millions of people.

It's not fair to the teams and it's not fair to the referee either.
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riccoar

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 09:37:59 am »

Should not be reviewed by people making the call.  There are others there, officials, watching these games.  But on Mason's shot, had they ruled he touched it on the shot, we would have had maybe 2 seconds to inbound and shoot.
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LRHawg

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 09:40:34 am »

I was angrier about the no-call on the foul than I was them missing that it was tipped. The UNC player got his arm too... three points there would again, have probably iced the game. We were literally on the edge of ending the game and that sequence of losing the ball, them getting it and then the no call on the charge/walk, is what turned it in their favor. Then Moses missing his free throws iced it.
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jm

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 09:43:00 am »

I don't agree that they can't be objective about reviewing their own calls.  If asked, virtually every one of them would prefer that the call be right and that they don't want to be the deciding factor in the game.  That said, I would like to see calls being reviewed from an off site location because of the following:

1)  While the technology is pretty good, the referees are essentially looking at the replay on a 19" computer monitor.  Having a much larger HD screen would provide more clarity, but you obviously can't put that at the scorer's table. 
2)  The referees don't always have access to the same views on replay that the public sees on TV.  There have been multiple times the view on TV shows something clearly, but the referee doesn't see that angle on his review.  The result is a lot of "how can they not see that"s when in fact they were looking at something totally different.  I'm not saying that was the case on the Macon 3, but it happens more than you'd imagine.

Having a dedicated replay official away from the table or even in a command center would help some of that.

Referees are not always objective and sure do not like to admit that they are wrong. You cannot have a 'I'm not sure" personality and hold the job. They go to the monitor knowing with a pre conceived idea which is the opposite of objective.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 11:01:20 am »

Just posted about this.  They don't.  And it's a problem.  But there is no way to know if that was the case here. 

All the replay monitors at bball games say something like dvr sports or something like that.
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East TN HAWG

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 11:03:10 am »

You can't let the people who make the call on the floor review their own calls. They take ownership over their call and are less likely to be truly objective when reviewing it.

I never thought about it, but you are absolutely right. 
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Danny J

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 11:06:20 am »

They need to review using a 120 or 240hz refresh rate HD tv...on mine at home I can see things those monitors can't show.
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Been10Hog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2017, 11:08:12 am »

Good point.
I still for the life of me can't figure out what they were looking at on Macon's shot.
It was really pretty clear the NC player touched the ball - it wasn't even questionable.
This call blows my mind! The refs in essence are saying that one of our best shooters, Macon, who shoots almost 90% from the free throw line not only shot an air ball, but shot a knuckleball with no spin! You can see the ball rolling off his finger tips and then all spin stops! How the hell can that happen! I hope the people in charge of assigning officials were so embarrassed by the way Chris Webber abused the refs on TV that they are not given such a marquee game in the future
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SemperFi

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2017, 11:09:05 am »

The replay clearly showed that the ball was tipped and should have been the Hogs ball. Even the Announcers were calling it. I agree about that whole sequence of events starting with the no call foul on the shot and then the missed charge/walk that resulted in a made UNC goal. How could they take so long to review that the ball was not touched, but it was clearly touched and blow an obvious charge/walk on the other end of the court? Those Ref's made up their mind who was going to win that game and thus removed all objectivity from the game.
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The Hogfather

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2017, 11:17:21 am »

The referee closest to the shot was telling the guy who called it out of bounds it had been tipped. The guy that called it North Carolina's ball was arguing and shaking his head before they went to the monitor. He was on the baseline so it wasn't even his call to begin with. He certainly shouldn't have been part of the review process.

This is so true.  I was screaming at my TV.  Guy closest to the play called it tipped.  Video clearly shows it was tipped.  The ball starts spinning sideways.  Complete bull.  Now, we only would've had 1-2 seconds, but I would much rather have that than nothing.  They should be able to replay that shiz charge/walk call, too.  Sons of itches.
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lynbug

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2017, 11:27:32 am »

The difference in fouls was enough for me to know that we better build a 10-12 point lead or the refs would equalize things down the stretch.  And they did that and gave the advantage to NC.  But we're going to have to scrape and claw our way back to "elite" status before we get any calls in a close tournament game.  JMO
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2017, 11:39:01 am »

You can't let the people who make the call on the floor review their own calls. They take ownership over their call and are less likely to be truly objective when reviewing it.

I agree with this. IF it needs to be reviewed, let someone else review it. Also, make sure whoever is reviewing it has plenty of camera angles.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2017, 11:45:07 am »

Should not be reviewed by people making the call.  There are others there, officials, watching these games.  But on Mason's shot, had they ruled he touched it on the shot, we would have had maybe 2 seconds to inbound and shoot.

What a lot of people don't realize either is in college, these situations are often bailed out by defense as well.  So for anyone that says either way we would of only had 2 seconds, I can remember 2 possibly 3 situations just last weekend throughout all the games where this was done and schools got shots off with fouls.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2017, 11:48:15 am »

What a lot of people don't realize either is in college, these situations are often bailed out by defense as well.  So for anyone that says either way we would of only had 2 seconds, I can remember 2 possibly 3 situations just last weekend throughout all the games where this was done and schools got shots off with fouls.
I just know you have a much better chance of scoring with the ball than without, no matter how much time is left on the shot clock.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2017, 11:55:31 am »

I just know you have a much better chance of scoring with the ball than without, no matter how much time is left on the shot clock.

Give it the rest of the day and someone like zeke will come along and try to argue this point.
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Rbill

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2017, 12:02:00 pm »

How many times all season has he missed one that short?  Defender got a finger on it and that's all it took.
more like 4 fingers. I can't believe how clear it was.
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Hawg414

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2017, 01:38:26 pm »

someone answer this for me... bc i havent even seen this so much as mentioned.  and maybe i missed something.

on the play in question.  try to disregard whether whether the UNC player tipped the ball or not.  either he did, and it is headed out of bounds on them.. or he didnt, and it is headed out of bounds on us.  regardless, the ball landed IN BOUNDS, under the goal, and Barford jumped from what appeared to be IN BOUNDS, grabbed the ball and threw it off the leg of a UNC player.  basketball 101 that we are all taught at age 6.

so for arguments sake.  lets say macons shot was not tipped.  doesnt the ensuing play by barford still make it our ball anyway??  i mean unless i am missing that barford was out of bounds before he jumped (which i thought he pretty clearly was not), then this call should have been our ball two different ways.  the tip by the UNC player... AND barford saving it and throwing it off another UNC players leg.  what am i missing??
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gchamblee

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2017, 01:43:43 pm »

The replays I have seen of this play dont have any evidence of the ball being tipped. Do you guys have a link to a replay that does? I really want to see it if you do.
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Hawg414

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 02:09:28 pm »

The replays I have seen of this play dont have any evidence of the ball being tipped. Do you guys have a link to a replay that does? I really want to see it if you do.

the replays were shown during the game.  and they were pretty clear.. especially the zoomed in version when coming back from a commercial.
me thinks you are just wanting to argue the definition of "evidence."
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PonderinHog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2017, 02:14:52 pm »

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gchamblee

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2017, 02:16:50 pm »

the replays were shown during the game.  and they were pretty clear.. especially the zoomed in version when coming back from a commercial.
me thinks you are just wanting to argue the definition of "evidence."

The replays shown during the game had no evidence of a tip in my opinion. I wanted there to be. I felt that it had been tipped due to how badly the ball missed the basket, but the replays did not show any obvious trajectory changes or movement of the ball. I was looking closely. Me thinks you decided it had been tipped before the replays and saw what you wanted to see in them.
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PonderinHog

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2017, 02:17:18 pm »

The replays I have seen of this play dont have any evidence of the ball being tipped. Do you guys have a link to a replay that does? I really want to see it if you do.
I messed up on the quote, but see above.
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gchamblee

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2017, 02:18:24 pm »



Perfect replay. You can see there that the ball had been tipped. I did not see that replay during the game. That one must have been viewed while I was in the kitchen.
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Hawg414

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2017, 02:26:58 pm »

The replays shown during the game had no evidence of a tip in my opinion. I wanted there to be. I felt that it had been tipped due to how badly the ball missed the basket, but the replays did not show any obvious trajectory changes or movement of the ball. I was looking closely. Me thinks you decided it had been tipped before the replays and saw what you wanted to see in them.

it wasnt blocked.  rejected.  it wasnt thrown 6 rows deep into the stands.  it was tipped.  and it was pretty clearly tipped.  there doesnt have to be trajectory changes.  i realize sometimes there are... but there are varying degrees to which a ball can be tipped... all the way down to "just barely."  sometimes balls are only barely tipped.  in which this case it was.  and it is pretty evident. 

as for my predeterminations:  my initial thought was that it was a poor, desperation shot with a shot clock running down... and i was excited that barford grabbed the airball and threw it off a UNC players leg in order to maintain possession for us.  it wasnt until the replays that i was even aware the shot had been tipped. 
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Sow Lancelot

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2017, 02:34:46 pm »

The tip by the NC player was oh so slight. I told my wife it was much easier to see on our 55" set than what they were using courtside.
Except that the side official, signaling a tipped ball, saw it live.
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The Hogfather

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2017, 03:18:24 pm »

The replays shown during the game had no evidence of a tip in my opinion. I wanted there to be. I felt that it had been tipped due to how badly the ball missed the basket, but the replays did not show any obvious trajectory changes or movement of the ball. I was looking closely. Me thinks you decided it had been tipped before the replays and saw what you wanted to see in them.

Watch the spin of the ball.  It starts to go sideways right out of his hand.  He doesn't shoot like that.  Every angle, every pic, every video, the ref closest to the call, all show it was tipped.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2017, 03:22:24 pm »

the replays were shown during the game.  and they were pretty clear.. especially the zoomed in version when coming back from a commercial.
me thinks you are just wanting to argue the definition of "evidence."

the question no one seems to know the answer to is what camera shots do the officials get to see?
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The Hogfather

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2017, 03:39:45 pm »

the question no one seems to know the answer to is what camera shots do the officials get to see?

The ref by the play clearly did the international signal for tipped ball.  He would've had to be overruled.  NO angle would've shown conclusive evidence that it wasn't tipped (because it was).
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rljjr

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2017, 03:44:08 pm »

I was angrier about the no-call on the foul than I was them missing that it was tipped. The UNC player got his arm too... three points there would again, have probably iced the game. We were literally on the edge of ending the game and that sequence of losing the ball, them getting it and then the no call on the charge/walk, is what turned it in their favor. Then Moses missing his free throws iced it.

Agreed. He certainly fouled him by not allowing the follow through on the shot, which is why he didn't draw iron. Blatant bull spit.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2017, 03:46:54 pm »

the question no one seems to know the answer to is what camera shots do the officials get to see?

That's not the point. They shouldn't be the people looking at the replays.

In the case yesterday it was clear that the guy on the baseline was vehement he got the call right. There was no angle in which the rotation of the ball couldn't be seen being changed. It's clear that the guy who made the call couldn't admit he got it wrong and fought to keep his call. He was clearly fighting for it before going to the monitor because you could see the referee closest to the call telling him it had been tipped. Camera angles had nothing to do with his arguing with the other ref.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2017, 04:04:59 pm »

That's not the point. They shouldn't be the people looking at the replays.

In the case yesterday it was clear that the guy on the baseline was vehement he got the call right. There was no angle in which the rotation of the ball couldn't be seen being changed. It's clear that the guy who made the call couldn't admit he got it wrong and fought to keep his call. He was clearly fighting for it before going to the monitor because you could see the referee closest to the call telling him it had been tipped. Camera angles had nothing to do with his arguing with the other ref.

I said earlier in this thread I agreed that thy should not review their own calls. That is, however, the system now, so thy should be given every available camera angle, and I just have not seen a good answer to if that is done for them or not.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2017, 04:07:38 pm »

I said earlier in this thread I agreed that thy should not review their own calls. That is, however, the system now, so thy should be given every available camera angle, and I just have not seen a good answer to if that is done for them or not.

I apologize. I haven't read the whole thread.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2017, 04:11:01 pm »

I apologize. I haven't read the whole thread.

No problem.
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hoglady

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2017, 05:24:03 pm »

This call blows my mind! The refs in essence are saying that one of our best shooters, Macon, who shoots almost 90% from the free throw line not only shot an air ball, but shot a knuckleball with no spin! You can see the ball rolling off his finger tips and then all spin stops! How the hell can that happen! I hope the people in charge of assigning officials were so embarrassed by the way Chris Webber abused the refs on TV that they are not given such a marquee game in the future

Speaking of Webber - I was impressed.
I thought he did a fine job.
Didn't appear to have an agenda for either team - he was great.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2017, 08:54:49 am »

I'm more upset about the Beard shot clock violation that wasn't. We got that rebound with 2-3 guys that had a clear path to the basket.
That buzzer sure did go off quick...Hmmm
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djgaffer

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2017, 11:58:01 am »

the question no one seems to know the answer to is what camera shots do the officials get to see?

It depends on the location.  For TV games in Bud Walton, there are 7.  Usually there are 4 cameras from the network.  Then the arena usually have additional angles.  There is a coordinator at the monitor who has visibility to all the angles and can help direct the officials to which angle to look at.  The officials actually run the review via remote. 

All angles are available to the officials through the DV Sports monitor at Bud Walton, but that isn't always the case.  It is a constant concern for the officials that they have visibility to the angles that fans are seeing at home.  They don't always and can obviously sometimes look foolish because of it. 
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hawgsalot

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2017, 12:28:16 pm »

That's not the point. They shouldn't be the people looking at the replays.

In the case yesterday it was clear that the guy on the baseline was vehement he got the call right. There was no angle in which the rotation of the ball couldn't be seen being changed. It's clear that the guy who made the call couldn't admit he got it wrong and fought to keep his call. He was clearly fighting for it before going to the monitor because you could see the referee closest to the call telling him it had been tipped. Camera angles had nothing to do with his arguing with the other ref.

You are exactly right the black ref came in shaking his head the white ref kept signaling tip ball but the sideline guy was adamant it wasn't even going to the monitor.  Number 1 he was the farthest away why the heck was he so adamant going to the monitor?  I knew it wouldn't be overturned based on his actions before going to the monitor.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2017, 12:28:38 pm »

It depends on the location.  For TV games in Bud Walton, there are 7.  Usually there are 4 cameras from the network.  Then the arena usually have additional angles.  There is a coordinator at the monitor who has visibility to all the angles and can help direct the officials to which angle to look at.  The officials actually run the review via remote. 

All angles are available to the officials through the DV Sports monitor at Bud Walton, but that isn't always the case.  It is a constant concern for the officials that they have visibility to the angles that fans are seeing at home.  They don't always and can obviously sometimes look foolish because of it. 

As an official, that would scare the crap out of me, probably literally, if I knew that people at home were getting a view of a play that I was not getting.
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Rbill

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2017, 12:41:43 pm »

As an official, that would scare the crap out of me, probably literally, if I knew that people at home were getting a view of a play that I was not getting.

How hard can it be to get a cable subscription and TiVo on that thing. Maybe a walkie talkie to a box where someone's watching the game on cbs upstairs. Smh
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hawgfan4life

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2017, 12:48:36 pm »

There aren't that many arenas.  Surely for the NCAA tournament there can be equipment available that can zoom in on the small print on the basketball.
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hogsanity

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Re: Basketball replay flaw
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2017, 12:55:28 pm »

There aren't that many arenas.  Surely for the NCAA tournament there can be equipment available that can zoom in on the small print on the basketball.

Or just run a cable from the production truck to the monitor and let them see what everyone else sees.
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