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Author Topic: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?  (Read 5251 times)

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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #200 on: March 13, 2017, 11:37:32 am »

Well I imagine so considering that all they have to do is beat Florida State to win the ACC most years. Over 70% of the ACC hasn't beaten more than 3 ranked teams in the last 4 years, and there is only 1 team among that 70%+ that has done that. And don't bring Louisville into this discussion, their record against ranked teams the last 4 years? 1-9

What was the ACC's overall bowl record vs. the SEC over the past two seasons?  I'm not being snarky, I really don't know and can't find the stats.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #201 on: March 13, 2017, 12:03:23 pm »

What was the ACC's overall bowl record vs. the SEC over the past two seasons?  I'm not being snarky, I really don't know and can't find the stats.

Ha, ok. I don't care about the last 2 years let alone just the bowl record and you are cherry-picking which means you already know the answer. So here is another question for you and I don't know the answer and I don't know how to look it up, but what is the SOS for the ACC for the last 4 years compared to the SEC?
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #202 on: March 13, 2017, 12:05:44 pm »

Ha, ok. I don't care about the last 2 years let alone just the bowl record and you are cherry-picking which means you already know the answer. So here is another question for you and I don't know the answer and I don't know how to look it up, but what is the SOS for the ACC for the last 4 years compared to the SEC?

I honestly do not know the SOS, nor the bowl records.  It's not important.  I looked on ESPN and FBS for the totals.
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hogsanity

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #203 on: March 13, 2017, 12:25:36 pm »

What was the ACC's overall bowl record vs. the SEC over the past two seasons?  I'm not being snarky, I really don't know and can't find the stats.

Here is what is hard about trying to make bowl comparisons. Take the Belk Bowl as a example, A team that played in the ACC title game, played a SEC team that, at best, finished 5th in their division and 8th in the league. HAd they lined up the teams, 1st against 1st all the way down, what would the record have been?
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #204 on: March 13, 2017, 12:54:44 pm »

Here is what is hard about trying to make bowl comparisons. Take the Belk Bowl as a example, A team that played in the ACC title game, played a SEC team that, at best, finished 5th in their division and 8th in the league. HAd they lined up the teams, 1st against 1st all the way down, what would the record have been?

No way of knowing.  I still can't find conference bowl stats or ACC vs SEC numbers.

Again, not important.  Both conferences are killer.
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Sportster365

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #205 on: March 13, 2017, 12:56:53 pm »

Let's compare the worse power 5 conference in basketball with the best power 5 in football and hold both coaches to the same standard.... yeah that's intelligent

Its not about comparing one sport against another. Its about comparing productivity. It doesn't matter if you're a food preparer at Wendy's or the CEO of a fortune 500 company. Both have to produce or at the least show signs of progression. Both of these coaches signed up for the job, so apparently they feel they they've got what it takes to get the job done in their respective professions. No need for excuses or stating whose job is most difficult.  All fans what to see right now is progression. The confidence to believe to program is moving in the right direction and to feel our future is brighter than our present situation.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #206 on: March 13, 2017, 02:20:23 pm »

What a pain in the butt
Conference Rank/Team/Score   Conference Rank/Team/Score
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 08:00:13 am by Pork Twain »
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factchecker

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #207 on: March 13, 2017, 02:58:36 pm »

What a pain in the butt

CR = Conference Rank

Good stuff.
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #208 on: March 13, 2017, 06:09:01 pm »

Ha, ok. I don't care about the last 2 years let alone just the bowl record and you are cherry-picking which means you already know the answer. So here is another question for you and I don't know the answer and I don't know how to look it up, but what is the SOS for the ACC for the last 4 years compared to the SEC?
you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.
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Hawgar The Horrible

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #209 on: March 13, 2017, 08:52:27 pm »

you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.

Someone forgot to tell the NFL the SEC is waning.


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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #210 on: March 13, 2017, 10:05:00 pm »

Someone forgot to tell the NFL the SEC is waning.
one team out of 14 won more than 8 regular season games. You tell me.
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #211 on: March 14, 2017, 12:41:47 pm »

you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.

You can't accurately define a trend with just two data points, i.e. 2 seasons. That's why nobody but fools or people with an agenda care about using only the last two years. Otherwise, I could find a day in november that was warmer than the previous day and proclaim it is going to keep on getting warmer this winter rather than getting colder.

one team out of 14 won more than 8 regular season games. You tell me.

Again, you are now decreasing your data down to just one data point. One single season. Further, want to know why wins are a bad indicator of how good a team might be? What is the maximum number of wins that the conference can average? That would require every team to win every OOC game, but after that, 2/3 of the schedule requires one SEC team to win and one to lose. If you have a lot of 8 win teams, that says nothing to the quality of the teams other than they are close to equal in talent. If you have several 10+ win teams, that just means you are top heavy in talent.

If you want a measure of the physical talent that a conference has, check out the NFL draft. They don't care at all about who the media hypes up. You know the players that they tend to draft come from? SEC. Know the big difference between the SEC and other conferences? We are not as top heavy in talent. Go to most any other conference and you will find that the bottom of the conference either barely or flat out doesn't produce NFL talent. Remove the top team from the conference numbers and they drop by a third. You go to the SEC and it is rare for even the bottom teams to not have at least one draft pick and they will often have multiple picks. Remove the top and bottom schools to get down to 10 teams to thus normalize and SEC remains on top. Heck, some years, you can remove the top 2 teams and we still have more draft picks than every other top heavy conference.
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hogsanity

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2017, 01:50:16 pm »

one team out of 14 won more than 8 regular season games. You tell me.

The NFL could not care less what the record was of the college team you played for. All they care about is if they think you can play in the league or not. And the SEC has more of those players than any other conf just about every year, and usually it is not even close.
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Pork Twain

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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #214 on: March 15, 2017, 09:28:32 am »

If you want a measure of the physical talent that a conference has, check out the NFL draft. They don't care at all about who the media hypes up. You know the players that they tend to draft come from? SEC. Know the big difference between the SEC and other conferences? We are not as top heavy in talent. Go to most any other conference and you will find that the bottom of the conference either barely or flat out doesn't produce NFL talent. Remove the top team from the conference numbers and they drop by a third. You go to the SEC and it is rare for even the bottom teams to not have at least one draft pick and they will often have multiple picks. Remove the top and bottom schools to get down to 10 teams to thus normalize and SEC remains on top. Heck, some years, you can remove the top 2 teams and we still have more draft picks than every other top heavy conference.

In support of that, here is the number of NFL Draft Picks by P-5/6 Conference affiliation over the last 10 years (2007-2016).

          SEC   ACC   B-Ten   Pac 12   B-12   Big East
2016     51     26      47        32       26         0
2015     54     47      35        39       25         0
2014     49     42      30        34       17         0
2013     63     30      20        28       22        21
2012     42     31      41        28       26        12
2011     38     35      29        31       30        21
2010     49     31      33        28       30        18
2009     37     32      28        32       28        27
2008     35     34      28        34       30        19
2007     41     31      31        28       28        15
          459    339     322      314     262       133
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gchamblee

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #215 on: March 15, 2017, 10:50:26 am »

In support of that, here is the number of NFL Draft Picks by P-5/6 Conference affiliation over the last 10 years (2007-2016).

          SEC   ACC   B-Ten   Pac 12   B-12   Big East
2016     51     26      47        32       26         0
2015     54     47      35        39       25         0
2014     49     42      30        34       17         0
2013     63     30      20        28       22        21
2012     42     31      41        28       26        12
2011     38     35      29        31       30        21
2010     49     31      33        28       30        18
2009     37     32      28        32       28        27
2008     35     34      28        34       30        19
2007     41     31      31        28       28        15
          459    339     322      314     262       133

that's good stuff
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #216 on: March 15, 2017, 11:01:05 am »

This is a picture of what dominance looks like and why this conference is so hard to win in.  Other conferences rise and fall, but there has been one constant most of my life.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 01:04:43 pm by Pork Twain »
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #217 on: March 15, 2017, 02:52:21 pm »

ACC is either hit or miss it seems.

Big 12 is consistently near the bottom.

SEC has been trending upwards since 2008.

Now, one of the things that has to be factored into that is the # of teams in a given conference. Since 2012, SEC has had 14. The big 10's recent rise is correlated to the influx of new teams, the big 12's recent downturn associated with the loss of teams.

The loss of the Big East seems to have provided an increase to the number of players in a given conference as well. ACC had a big boost in 04/05 and again in 13/14 collecting some of the better big east teams.
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MuskogeeHogFan

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #218 on: March 15, 2017, 04:48:09 pm »

ACC is either hit or miss it seems.

Big 12 is consistently near the bottom.

SEC has been trending upwards since 2008.

Now, one of the things that has to be factored into that is the # of teams in a given conference. Since 2012, SEC has had 14. The big 10's recent rise is correlated to the influx of new teams, the big 12's recent downturn associated with the loss of teams.

The loss of the Big East seems to have provided an increase to the number of players in a given conference as well. ACC had a big boost in 04/05 and again in 13/14 collecting some of the better big east teams.

The thing that I noticed, particularly with regard to the number of draft picks from each school, is that Oklahoma should absolutely dominate the Big 12 every year and if Tom Herman is the coach that everyone thinks that he is, Texas football should be back to winning big time. No one but Oklahoma and Texas, by a long shot, has had the talent in the Big 12 that they have. On the other hand, hat's off to Mike Gundy at Okla State who has truly done more, with less. Same goes for Baylor (hate to admit that), TCU and K-State. But then it isn't as if their conference schedule is overwhelming either.
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Hawgar The Horrible

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #219 on: March 15, 2017, 05:22:22 pm »

you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.

Consider this as well...CBB didn't run roughshod over the Big 10, but held his own and enjoyed much more success in that league. From top to bottom, minor league compared to the SEC.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #220 on: March 16, 2017, 05:56:22 am »

While it is true that the SEC has been trending upward since 2008, it was already consistently on top, long before that.

Sorry for the eye chart but just illustrates that most of the top teams are all very similar in the picks they pump out over the long haul, but as the bottom chart illustrates, 1st Rd picks tell the real story.  The top 15 teams in 1st Rd picks, have dominated college football all of my life.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2017, 07:38:20 am by Pork Twain »
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #221 on: March 16, 2017, 08:06:39 am »

you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.

I think the past two or three years the SEC has been a bit down and you're right to an extent that Bama has propped the rest of the division up during this time, but you can't argue against the fact that it's been the best conference over the past 25 years overall.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #222 on: March 16, 2017, 08:36:54 am »

I thought it would be interesting to look at how the classes teams signed, compared to the amount of NFL talent they pumped out as well, since we are already sidetracked.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #223 on: March 16, 2017, 09:00:55 am »

you don't care about the last two years because you have to go farther back to pull in better days of the sec. The strength of the conference is waning. One team holds up the rest of the league. It's like those that want to talk about Beliemas record but you can't count the first year. Well, yeah you can. It's part of his record. Average wins. 6.25 not 7.33 as someone tried to argue in another thread.
While Bama does dominate college football in recruiting and end of year rankings, your statement is incorrect.  Bama has remained a constant while the rest of the teams in the SEC have gone the way of the rest of the teams within all of the Power 5 conferences.  Good and bad years mixed together.  Saban's constant success might make it appear that the SEC has faded but in reality it is just the natural ebb and flow of college football.  Nothing is more cyclical than college sports and Saban is the exception.  The rest of the SEC just beats each other up and fights over the scraps.  The reality of the situation is that it is hard to have numerous dominant teams from one conference because they all have to play each other.  Before Saban, I guess it could be said that Florida and Tenn propped up the SEC. 

Here are the number of SEC teams in the final rankings each year
2016 - 5
2015 - 5
2014 - 7
2013 - 7
2012 - 6
2011 - 5
2010 - 6
2009 - 4
2008 - 4
2007 - 5
2006 - 6

As far as CBB's record...yes the first year counts as it is part of his coaching record, but we all know that it did not matter who the coach was that year.  After a year of JLS and all of the recruiting failures, it was doomed.
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #224 on: March 16, 2017, 11:11:12 am »

I agree with all of you that the sec has been the dominant conference for quite some time. Face it though,  Last year wasn't exactly iron sharpening iron. Where were the beating up on each other comments when the league routinely had 4 or 5 teams with  double digit win seasons. What some regard as a small sample size ( you must have heard her say that to you), I see as an acceleration of a slide that started in 2013 when sec teams lost both BCS games that they played in. The number of sec teams finishing in the top 25 poll in the post above hasn't dropped much. Look at what rank they are.  I remember the chest thumping when the sec had 5 or 6 teams in the top 10. Now you can find those teams placed from #16 through #25. No one can discount what the sec accomplished with the 7 national championships in a row. I'm not trying to do that. Even sec pimp Paul Finebaum admitted the sec wasn't the best conference last year. Will that continue with the 2017 season? Or will the slide slow down to where more than 1 team can win more than 8 games in the regular season and somebody can be nationally relevant besides Alabama. Big 1 little 13 is kind of what the sec has looked like at the end of the season the last few years.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #225 on: March 16, 2017, 11:13:35 am »

I agree with all of you that the sec has been the dominant conference for quite some time. Face it though,  Last year wasn't exactly iron sharpening iron. Where were the beating up on each other comments when the league routinely had 4 or 5 teams with  double digit win seasons. What some regard as a small sample size ( you must have heard her say that to you), I see as an acceleration of a slide that started in 2013 when sec teams lost both BCS games that they played in. The number of sec teams finishing in the top 25 poll in the post above hasn't dropped much. Look at what rank they are. I remember the chest thumping when the sec had 5 or 6 teams in the top 10. Now you can find those teams placed from #16 through #25. No one can discount what the sec accomplished with the 7 national championships in a row. I'm trying to do that. Even sec pimp Paul Finebaum admitted the sec wasn't the best conference last year. Will that continue with the 2017 season? Or will the slide slow down to where more than 1 team can win more than 8 games in the regular season and somebody can be nationally relevant besides Alabama. Big 1 little 13 is kind of what the sec has looked like at the end of the season the last few years.

I think the ACC is better right now, or it was last year, but they won't sustain the success the SEC has had.  I believe the Big 10 was better overall about 3 or 4 years ago, but they're also never able to sustain it either.  There'll be a conference that pops up once in awhile every few years that has better years, but they're just not consistently as good.
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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #226 on: March 16, 2017, 11:15:52 am »

I think the ACC is better right now, or it was last year, but they won't sustain the success the SEC has had.  I believe the Big 10 was better overall about 3 or 4 years ago, but they're also never able to sustain it either.
i honestly don't think any conference will ever sustain the level of success that the sec reached in those 7 years.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #227 on: March 16, 2017, 11:16:39 am »

i honestly don't think any conference will ever sustain the level of success that the sec reached in those 7 years.

+1000

Agree

Wasn't it 6 years?
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #228 on: March 16, 2017, 11:18:44 am »

+1000

Agree

Wasn't it 6 years?
it was seven championships in a row.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #229 on: March 16, 2017, 12:35:35 pm »

I honestly do not think the SEC is finished with that level of success either.  While it does not win every NC, it is right there playing for them all and no other conference comes close.  Of the last 14 years, we were in contention for it all 13 times, 10 of the last 11 we were in the playoffs or the NC game.  That is pretty darned impressive. 

As you said LRR, some years it is not a matter of steel sharpening steel and there are only one or two really good teams, but that has been rare in recent years and usually there are 2-3 teams 3/4 through the season that have a legitimate shot at the NC game.  I just think the rest of the country wants to see us fall and is quick to name the next conference that will knock us off.  Now to just get our Hogs there...

As a footnote, none of this makes me puff my chest. It only comes in handy when I am working with someone that loves that ACC or B1G and is talking smack, which you get plenty of in the DoD.  As sick as I am of seeing Bama at the top, I would rather it be them than someone from those two conferences.

2002 - Georgia was 13-1
2003 - LSU (13-1) NC (Saban) gets a share of it
2004 - Auburn (13-0) was undefeated but so were USC and OK, who played for it all
2005 - No show LSU was 11-2
2006 - Florida (13-1) NC
2007 - LSU (12-2) NC
2008 - Florida (13-1) NC
2009 - Alabama (14-0) NC
2010 - Auburn (14-0) NC
2011 - Alabama (12-1) beat LSU (13-1) in the NC
2012 - Alabama (13-1) NC
2013 - Auburn (12-2) lost to Florida St in the NC
2014 - Alabama (12-2) lost to Ohio St in the playoffs
2015 - Alabama (14-1) NC
2016 - Alabama (14-1) lost to Clemson in the NC
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