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Author Topic: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?  (Read 5152 times)

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LZH

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #150 on: March 08, 2017, 02:52:57 pm »

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GuvHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #151 on: March 08, 2017, 03:07:06 pm »

My point was that they didn't finish in the top 10 like Tim from LR said. 

Agreed but the truth is the Hogs were merely a young freshmen mistake on a blocked Ohio State punt late in the Sugar Bowl game away from finishing in the top 10.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #152 on: March 08, 2017, 11:17:38 pm »

Wouldn't necessarily bet my life on that particular scenario. Let's assume we lose each of the next three games. Even with a 20+ wins this season that MIGHT not be good enough to secure an automatic bid. Depends to some degree on how some other teams "on the edge" do during/after tournaments. The SEC ISN'T exactly a power house conference in round ball.

LOL

The Hogs were a lock when you wrote this!

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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #153 on: March 09, 2017, 07:05:07 am »

LOL

The Hogs were a lock when you wrote this!
I think that speaks to the title of the thread. Deep down people realize a big run by the basketball team will in fact shine a negative light on the mediocrity that Beliema has the football program mired in. They don't want to acknowledge the uptick in the fortunes of the BB program and coach MA and look for any way to diminish it. You are right , they were a lock when this post was made. Poster just didn't want to see it.
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southeasthog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #154 on: March 09, 2017, 07:14:20 am »

I think that speaks to the title of the thread. Deep down people realize a big run by the basketball team will in fact shine a negative light on the mediocrity that Beliema has the football program mired in. They don't want to acknowledge the uptick in the fortunes of the BB program and coach MA and look for any way to diminish it. You are right , they were a lock when this post was made. Poster just didn't want to see it.
No, the people that don't like Beliema and think he can't get us to where they think the football team should be want to point to this season as proof of something. They gloss over the fact that Anderson went 16-16 in his 5th season. What did Beliema do in his 5th season? Oh yeah, hasn't happened yet.
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #155 on: March 09, 2017, 08:06:54 am »

No, the people that don't like Beliema and think he can't get us to where they think the football team should be want to point to this season as proof of something. They gloss over the fact that Anderson went 16-16 in his 5th season. What did Beliema do in his 5th season? Oh yeah, hasn't happened yet.
to be fair, the big run hasn't happened yet. I think it would be fun to watch a tournament run. The BB program has had a better year. After year over year improvement the  first three years FB program took a step back last year, including an alarming collapse in last few games. Many people have become prisoners of the moment (just look at any game thread) vacillating from euphoria to depression over the course of just a few plays much less a few games. Success by the BB program juxtaposed against the mediocrity of the FB program is bound to further the uncertainty many may have about the ability of CBB to make the football program relevant again in this "what have you done for me lately"'view many have today.
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colbs

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #156 on: March 09, 2017, 08:49:47 am »

Agreed but the truth is the Hogs were merely a young freshmen mistake on a blocked Ohio State punt late in the Sugar Bowl game away from finishing in the top 10.
No doubt but if you point out close losses by one coach you kind of have to for the current coach. IMO the 2010 team was better than the 2011 team.  The conference seemed to be more competitive that year.  They really were probably a top 10 team.  I think the 2011 season the league was top heavy.  There was a big gap between the top 2 teams and the hogs. 
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PonderinHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #157 on: March 09, 2017, 09:27:15 am »

Agreed but the truth is the Hogs were merely a young freshmen mistake on a blocked Ohio State punt late in the Sugar Bowl game away from finishing in the top 10.
Or Joe Adams could have caught the first pass of the game and taken it to the house.
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hogsanity

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #158 on: March 09, 2017, 09:41:31 am »

Or Joe Adams could have caught the first pass of the game and taken it to the house.

Or the db's could have knocked down every duck that the osu qb threw in the 1st half that seemed to go through 3 defenders hands right to a osu receiver.
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #159 on: March 09, 2017, 10:18:45 am »

Here's some history for you:

Frank Broyles inherited a Hog team that was almost devoid of talent, rebuilt it, and in 5 years led the Hogs to the National Title. Since then, the only Hog coach who has come remotely close to that is Bobby Petrino. He inherited a roster where the cupboard was almost bare, rebuilt it, and in 4 years he led the Hogs to a #5 final national ranking. Holtz, Hatfield, and Nutt all inherited loaded teams from previous coaches so they didn't have to rebuild.
No matter how many times you say this, it still will not be true.  There was a lot of talent left on the Hill when HDN was shown the door, combined with one of the strongest in-state crops of offensive talent many of us have ever seen, much of it already committed before the hire.  What CBB was asked to do when he arrived here was much more of an uphill battle due to a 180 on offensive scheme and far too many recruiting misses in the previous 3-4 classes.  Look no further than how many Freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in CBB's first two years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 10:30:41 am by Pork Twain »
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Pork Twain

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #160 on: March 09, 2017, 10:20:46 am »

to be fair, the big run hasn't happened yet. I think it would be fun to watch a tournament run. The BB program has had a better year. After year over year improvement the  first three years FB program took a step back last year, including an alarming collapse in last few games. Many people have become prisoners of the moment (just look at any game thread) vacillating from euphoria to depression over the course of just a few plays much less a few games. Success by the BB program juxtaposed against the mediocrity of the FB program is bound to further the uncertainty many may have about the ability of CBB to make the football program relevant again in this "what have you done for me lately"'view many have today.
So you are saying that the BB team did not take a step back last year and that this year is still not as good as the year before last?
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #161 on: March 09, 2017, 10:30:15 am »

Or Joe Adams could have caught the first pass of the game and taken it to the house.

+1000

Right in his hands.  I still have that game DVRd and watch it occasionally.
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Sportster365

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #162 on: March 09, 2017, 10:39:16 am »

No, the people that don't like Beliema and think he can't get us to where they think the football team should be want to point to this season as proof of something. They gloss over the fact that Anderson went 16-16 in his 5th season. What did Beliema do in his 5th season? Oh yeah, hasn't happened yet.

Incorrect, as acknowledged in the OP, the Razorback FB program and its fans can use this years BB season as a testimonial to show what can happen if we're patient long enough. 
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Sportster365

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #163 on: March 09, 2017, 11:03:20 am »

No matter how many times you say this, it still will not be true.  There was a lot of talent left on the Hill when HDN was shown the door, combined with one of the strongest in-state crops of offensive talent many of us have ever seen, much of it already committed before the hire.  What CBB was asked to do when he arrived here was much more of an uphill battle due to a 180 on offensive scheme and far too many recruiting misses in the previous 3-4 classes.  Look no further than how many Freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in CBB's first two years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

Could you agree that some systems accentuates a players abilities more than others? 
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #164 on: March 09, 2017, 11:22:26 am »

So you are saying that the BB team did not take a step back last year and that this year is still not as good as the year before last?
hmm. Where did I say that? The thread is about the success of the BB team and its effect on the football coach. I stated my opinion on that. I guess I took it to mean the success of this years team.
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870hogfan

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #165 on: March 09, 2017, 11:46:54 am »

to be fair, the big run hasn't happened yet. I think it would be fun to watch a tournament run. The BB program has had a better year. After year over year improvement the  first three years FB program took a step back last year, including an alarming collapse in last few games. Many people have become prisoners of the moment (just look at any game thread) vacillating from euphoria to depression over the course of just a few plays much less a few games. Success by the BB program juxtaposed against the mediocrity of the FB program is bound to further the uncertainty many may have about the ability of CBB to make the football program relevant again in this "what have you done for me lately"'view many have today.



How's the Ohio State basketball program going?
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #166 on: March 09, 2017, 11:51:24 am »

Incorrect, as acknowledged in the OP, the Razorback FB program and its fans can use this years BB season as a testimonial to show what can happen if we're patient long enough.

The 2016 season or a future year?
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LRRandy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #167 on: March 09, 2017, 12:09:37 pm »



How's the Ohio State basketball program going?
terrible. Do you think it will have a negative impact on the football team?
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hamARchy in the USA

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #168 on: March 09, 2017, 12:54:10 pm »

That the MA model could set the template for football expectations is a thought that's straight out of Razorback hell.
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HogimusMaximus

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #169 on: March 09, 2017, 10:59:11 pm »

As I've said previously: your avatar indicates "I Am Fat"!!!. Yep, impacting your reasoning and clear-headed thinking with all the "pork" on your body. A new coach is not necessarily our best option; let's begin more with the one(s) we have.

Why keep Bret around?  We are going to have a losing season.
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Hawgar The Horrible

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #170 on: March 10, 2017, 05:03:20 am »

Why keep Bret around?  We are going to have a losing season.

Li'iBoy!
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jkstock04

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #171 on: March 10, 2017, 08:06:14 am »

No matter how many times you say this, it still will not be true.  There was a lot of talent left on the Hill when HDN was shown the door, combined with one of the strongest in-state crops of offensive talent many of us have ever seen, much of it already committed before the hire.  What CBB was asked to do when he arrived here was much more of an uphill battle due to a 180 on offensive scheme and far too many recruiting misses in the previous 3-4 classes.  Look no further than how many Freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in CBB's first two years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
Just out of curiousity...what players did Petrino inherit from Nutt that makes you consider "a lot of talent?"

I can think of a handful of decent to good players off the top of my head but not a lot. Bequette and DJ Williams are the 1st I think of. I couldn't find any good info on a quick search of the 2007 roster. Fox sports has Ryan Mallett & Anthony Leon on our roster for 2007 when Nutt was coach, so their database is wrong.

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GuvHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #172 on: March 10, 2017, 08:08:01 am »

No matter how many times you say this, it still will not be true.  There was a lot of talent left on the Hill when HDN was shown the door, combined with one of the strongest in-state crops of offensive talent many of us have ever seen, much of it already committed before the hire.  What CBB was asked to do when he arrived here was much more of an uphill battle due to a 180 on offensive scheme and far too many recruiting misses in the previous 3-4 classes.  Look no further than how many Freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in CBB's first two years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

No, there was not a lot of talent on the roster that Bobby Petrino inherited. The entire offensive backfield (except the QB) from the previous season opted for the NFL Draft as did the Hogs only decent experienced WR and they lost a lot off of the defense too. Petrino had to rebuild almost from the ground up. He did have a very good incoming freshman class that he basically had to re-recruit and a couple that he had to flip from other universities.
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Piggfoot

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #173 on: March 10, 2017, 08:21:58 am »

No, there was not a lot of talent on the roster that Bobby Petrino inherited. The entire offensive backfield (except the QB) from the previous season opted for the NFL Draft as did the Hogs only decent experienced WR and they lost a lot off of the defense too. Petrino had to rebuild almost from the ground up. He did have a very good incoming freshman class that he basically had to re-recruit and a couple that he had to flip from other universities.
He did none of the recruiting, that was Horton's work. However, even Horton could not recruit to Arkansas if Nutt was staying. Honestly I believe a Pee Wee coach who had a decent balanced offense could have convinced the players to flip. Seriously though, I was excited about Petrino coming but I didn't know him then. He was not an honorable man and after a while the players didn't like him. His recruiting was declining. He had to go.
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GuvHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #174 on: March 10, 2017, 02:32:10 pm »

He did none of the recruiting, that was Horton's work. However, even Horton could not recruit to Arkansas if Nutt was staying. Honestly I believe a Pee Wee coach who had a decent balanced offense could have convinced the players to flip. Seriously though, I was excited about Petrino coming but I didn't know him then. He was not an honorable man and after a while the players didn't like him. His recruiting was declining. He had to go.

His recruiting was not declining. The 2014 defense that was so good is proof of that. It was lead primarily by Petrino's recruits. The departure of many of his recruits is why the defense has been so bad in 2015 and 2016 (that and poor coaching).
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #175 on: March 10, 2017, 02:42:59 pm »

No matter how many times you say this, it still will not be true.  There was a lot of talent left on the Hill when HDN was shown the door, combined with one of the strongest in-state crops of offensive talent many of us have ever seen, much of it already committed before the hire.  What CBB was asked to do when he arrived here was much more of an uphill battle due to a 180 on offensive scheme and far too many recruiting misses in the previous 3-4 classes.  Look no further than how many Freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in CBB's first two years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Arkansas_Razorbacks_football_team

There was a lot more in the cupboard for Bielema to work with than Petrino. Look no further than how many freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in Petrino's first two years. Also, look at the NFL draft output. And there was more of a 180 offensive flip from Nutt to Petrino than Petrino to Bielema IMO.

A big difference, IMO, is that the SEC has been deeper during Bielema's tenure than it was during Petrino's. The aggies didn't have Sumlin and the Miss schools were not as talented. Hence, we've had more NFL talent under Bielema than ever before but with less total wins.
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hogsanity

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #176 on: March 10, 2017, 02:44:59 pm »

His recruiting was not declining. The 2014 defense that was so good is proof of that. It was lead primarily by Petrino's recruits. The departure of many of his recruits is why the defense has been so bad in 2015 and 2016 (that and poor coaching).

Go look at the 2010 and 2011 classes, out side of a very few players, mainly d-linemen, those classes were huge busts.
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colbs

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #177 on: March 10, 2017, 03:04:03 pm »

There was a lot more in the cupboard for Bielema to work with than Petrino. Look no further than how many freshmen saw significant, even starting, playing time in Petrino's first two years. Also, look at the NFL draft output. And there was more of a 180 offensive flip from Nutt to Petrino than Petrino to Bielema IMO.

A big difference, IMO, is that the SEC has been deeper during Bielema's tenure than it was during Petrino's. The aggies didn't have Sumlin and the Miss schools were not as talented. Hence, we've had more NFL talent under Bielema than ever before but with less total wins.
BP seemed to inherit a lot of upperclassman at the OL position.  While a lot of the skill positions came in and played early.  I wouldn't say BB had much to work with either.  Skipper, Kirkland, Henry, Collins, Ragnow, and Ellis all started as true freshmen.  Your probably not dong great if you have to bring in true freshmen to start on the OL.  Liddell, Tolliver, Ramirez, And Jred all played early.
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colbs

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #178 on: March 10, 2017, 03:11:07 pm »

Go look at the 2010 and 2011 classes, out side of a very few players, mainly d-linemen, those classes were huge busts.
Exactly.  There were some really good players in those classes but there were some busts, kids kicked off, and players that left the program. 
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #179 on: March 10, 2017, 05:24:25 pm »

BP seemed to inherit a lot of upperclassman at the OL position.  While a lot of the skill positions came in and played early.  I wouldn't say BB had much to work with either.  Skipper, Kirkland, Henry, Collins, Ragnow, and Ellis all started as true freshmen.  Your probably not dong great if you have to bring in true freshmen to start on the OL.  Liddell, Tolliver, Ramirez, And Jred all played early.

QB: Casey Dick/Nathan Dick, (brought in Wilson and Mallett)
      Branden Allen/Brandon Mitchel, adv Bielema (brought in Derby, kept Austin as a recruit)

RB: Michael Smith/Brandon Barnett (brought in Curtis and Johnson)
      Jonathan Williams/Nate Holmes (brought in Collins) adv Bielema

FB: Lance Thompson/John Durmon/Stumon
      Kiero Small/Patrick Arinze adv Bielema

WR: Crawford, Miller, Fish (brought in Childs, Wright, Adams)
       Horton, Herndon, Hatcher (brought in Morgan) Adv Bielema. Herndon went on to the NFL and had 4.4 speed, and Hatcher is going to the NFL this season.

TE: DJ Williams/Andrew Davie (Gragg came in as a WR and progressed to TE)
      Loewen/Sprinkle (Henry was a lock to come here regardless, but he brought him in) adv Petrino there, though having Sprinkle and Loewen who played a lot doesn't make the gap as far as you might think

LT: Dominguez/Cook
      Hurd Adv Petrino.

LG: Petrus/Crowell
      Smothers/Beck Adv Petrino

C: Luigs/Oxner
    Swanson/Charpentier Push, though with a slight edge as Oxner left and Charpentier gave depth at least

RG: Love/Grayson
       Cook/Boyd Adv Petrino

RT: Valdez/Aguirre
      Ollison Adv Petrino

Summary for offense: Petrino had a better OL coming into things but minimal other players. Further, the NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball that Petrino inherited included DJ Williams, Demarcus Love, Petrus, and Luigs. Bielema inherited Sprinkle, Small, BA, JWill, Herndon, Swanson, Hatcher, and for all intents and purposes inherited Austin Allen. Definitely a lot more to work with there overall. While Petrino inherited 3 eventual NFL OL players, they highest any were drafted was 106th while Swanson went 76th.

Defense in next post.
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #180 on: March 10, 2017, 05:40:50 pm »

DE: Bequette/Ambrose
      Smith/Lewis/Winston Adv Bielema. Bequette was better than Smith, but both went to the NFL and CBB had a lot more depth.

DT: Mitchell/Gray (brought in Stadther to start)
     Thomas/Hodge, major adv to Bielema

DT: Sheppard/Jones
      Jones/Philon Adv CBB

DE: Davis/Robinson
      Flowers/Wise Jr major adv CBB

SLB: Forte/Burton
       Mitchell (brought in Spaight), Push, Petrino had more depth, but Braylon was a much better LB and also had SEC size relative to the others

MLB: Franklin/Love
        Austin Jones (brought in Ellis) Adv Petrino, Franklin was a beast

WLB: Powers/Forte (brought in Nelson)
         Lake/Carr Adv CBB

CB: Love/Broadway
       Mitchel (brought in Washington), Push. Petrino had better depth, Tevin was drafted to the NFL though

CB: Madison/Gatson
      Hines/Collins Push, Gatson had some time the NFL and Madison was decent. Hines gave us a good couple years before transferring, Collins has a good chance to be a late round draft pick though.

SS: Washington/Harris (Petrino brought in somebody else)
    Gaines Adv Petrino

FS: Harris/Johnson
      Bennett/Turner Adv CBB

K: Tejada
    Hocker, Adv CBB

P: Davis
    Baker (brought in Irwin Hill) Adv CBB

Neither side was given much talent here except for CBB on the DL with an embarrassment of riches. Comparing NFL talent inherited, Petrino inherited Bequette and that's the only guy who was drafted. Franklin, Gatson, Sheppard, and I think Broadway had short regular season stints in the NFL as UDFA's with Gatston having the best run. CBB inherited Smith, Philon, Flowers, Mitchel and Hocker. Wise Jr will also likely get drafted, Winston, Collins and Baker and strong candidates to make a regular season roster at some point even if they go undrafted, and Robert Thomas spend many seasons in the NFL as an UDFA.

So, the deck was definitely stacked in Bielema's favor on this side of the ball as well.
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LZH

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #181 on: March 10, 2017, 07:00:02 pm »

Your probably not dong great

Well said.....
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colbs

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #182 on: March 11, 2017, 12:06:56 am »

Well said.....
Well I'm not trying to be the best at grammar.
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colbs

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #183 on: March 11, 2017, 12:34:29 am »

QB: Casey Dick/Nathan Dick, (brought in Wilson and Mallett)
      Branden Allen/Brandon Mitchel, adv Bielema (brought in Derby, kept Austin as a recruit)

RB: Michael Smith/Brandon Barnett (brought in Curtis and Johnson)
      Jonathan Williams/Nate Holmes (brought in Collins) adv Bielema

FB: Lance Thompson/John Durmon/Stumon
      Kiero Small/Patrick Arinze adv Bielema

WR: Crawford, Miller, Fish (brought in Childs, Wright, Adams)
       Horton, Herndon, Hatcher (brought in Morgan) Adv Bielema. Herndon went on to the NFL and had 4.4 speed, and Hatcher is going to the NFL this season.

TE: DJ Williams/Andrew Davie (Gragg came in as a WR and progressed to TE)
      Loewen/Sprinkle (Henry was a lock to come here regardless, but he brought him in) adv Petrino there, though having Sprinkle and Loewen who played a lot doesn't make the gap as far as you might think

LT: Dominguez/Cook
      Hurd Adv Petrino.

LG: Petrus/Crowell
      Smothers/Beck Adv Petrino

C: Luigs/Oxner
    Swanson/Charpentier Push, though with a slight edge as Oxner left and Charpentier gave depth at least

RG: Love/Grayson
       Cook/Boyd Adv Petrino

RT: Valdez/Aguirre
      Ollison Adv Petrino

Summary for offense: Petrino had a better OL coming into things but minimal other players. Further, the NFL talent on the offensive side of the ball that Petrino inherited included DJ Williams, Demarcus Love, Petrus, and Luigs. Bielema inherited Sprinkle, Small, BA, JWill, Herndon, Swanson, Hatcher, and for all intents and purposes inherited Austin Allen. Definitely a lot more to work with there overall. While Petrino inherited 3 eventual NFL OL players, they highest any were drafted was 106th while Swanson went 76th.

Defense in next post.
It's kind hard to compare situations because a certain player may have not developed as well under a different staff.  For example DJ Williams probably wouldn't have had as good of a career if he played under Nutt for 4 years.  So how do you decide who gets credit?  Hatcher, Jwill, and Philon never played for BP.  Herndon, Hocker, Small, Swanson, and Horton  all only played 1 year under BB.  So pretty much the WR, TE, and OL depth were not great.  Also, the RB position was thin.  On defense I would say DL advantage for sure BP, but BB deserves a little credit.

If you are not giving BB much credit for bringing in AA or HH then you have to do the same for the 2008 class.  The majority of that instate class would have still come.  Big credit though for flipping Adams & Wilson.   Also,  he was able to get Mallett & Green after they decided to transfer.  The core of the '10 & '11 seasons were due to that instate class. 
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bennyl08

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #184 on: March 11, 2017, 02:28:47 am »

It's kind hard to compare situations because a certain player may have not developed as well under a different staff.  For example DJ Williams probably wouldn't have had as good of a career if he played under Nutt for 4 years.  So how do you decide who gets credit? Hatcher, Jwill, and Philon never played for BP.  Herndon, Hocker, Small, Swanson, and Horton  all only played 1 year under BB.  So pretty much the WR, TE, and OL depth were not great.  Also, the RB position was thin.  On defense I would say DL advantage for sure BP, but BB deserves a little credit.

While a very good question for a different argument, I don't see the relevance to this one. This is a great debate on who deserves the credit for the development of a player to the NFL, but has very little to do with what a coach is given to work with from the previous regime. To answer your question, I typically will give credit for the development of a player to the coach who spent the most time with said player as a rule of thumb. Obviously if more details are provided then that rule of thumb may be violated. For example, say Dmac was a freshmen in 2007. Then, he would have spent most of his years with Petrino over Nutt, but was already a 1000 yard rusher as a true freshmen, so it's not like any coach needs credit developing him, he was going to be a stud regardless. So, typically I give the first two years to the previous coach and what comes later to the next save for JUCOs and the like. Two years can be a bit of a stretch though as it becomes debatable where the influence happened. How much of Spaight's final year was due to Robb Smith coming in vs how much was just due to things clicking for him that would have happened regardless?

Nonetheless, what the coaches have to work with as players has little to nothing to do with how much they develop them or not, IMO. DJ Williams was a talented player and hard worker regardless. He put up more numbers under Petrino than he would have with Nutt, but good players tend to be good players regardless. What you do with that talent is then on the coaching staff. So, for example, Rex Ryan inherited an all pro caliber defense with the Buffalo Bills and failed to do much with it. Because he wasn't able to develop them into his system doesn't mean he had a harder job. Those players have the same potential of talent whether Smiley is coaching them or Saban. It is then the coach's job to turn that potential talent into kinetic talent.

Quote
If you are not giving BB much credit for bringing in AA or HH then you have to do the same for the 2008 class.  The majority of that instate class would have still come.  Big credit though for flipping Adams & Wilson.   Also,  he was able to get Mallett & Green after they decided to transfer.  The core of the '10 & '11 seasons were due to that instate class.

Is that not what I do? Childs and Wright were probably coming here regardless. Adams, Knile, Mallett, Hamilton, Nelson not. Henry and Austin were likely coming here regardless, Skipper, Kirkland, and Collins not. I guess I wasn't super explicit and consistent with that.

Point still stands, that talent on the roster that Petrino received included Luigs, Petrus, DJ Williams, Love, Bequette, Franklin, and Gatson as players who had multiple NFL games.

Bielema received Sprinkle, Kiero Small, JWill, Swanson, Hatcher, Chris Smith, Philon, Flowers, Mitchel, Hocker, Robert Thomas, and Toby Baker.

In short, ask yourself this question. If you remove the players that were already there, which coach would be in a better place. Petrino still has Mallett, Adams, Knile, Childs, Wright, Nelson, Wilson, Wingo, Hamilton, Gragg, Smith, Thomas and Hocker. The OL would be worse for wear and losing Bequette and Franklin would hurt. However, much of the core players would still be there.

For Bielema, there'd be Hunter, Austin, Collins, Kirkland, Skipper, Ragnow, Derby, Tretola, Collins, Pulley, Ellis, Morgan, Cornelius. However, no BA, no Small, no JWill, no Flowers, no Philon, no Tevin, no Hocker, no Hatcher. That 2014 season probably doesn't go to a bowl game. Doesn't bring in the excitement that helped with that class full of players that are now leaders for this coming season. Petrino likely struggles with worse line play than he had, but quantifiably, Bielema has had more overall talent to work with in the team he inherited than Petrino. People remember all the freshmen starters we had in 2013 and some as well in 2014, but 2008 was mostly new players as well as with 2009.

However, I think the SEC has been tougher overall in Bielema's tenure than Petrino's.
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GuvHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #185 on: March 11, 2017, 10:19:38 am »

While a very good question for a different argument, I don't see the relevance to this one. This is a great debate on who deserves the credit for the development of a player to the NFL, but has very little to do with what a coach is given to work with from the previous regime. To answer your question, I typically will give credit for the development of a player to the coach who spent the most time with said player as a rule of thumb. Obviously if more details are provided then that rule of thumb may be violated. For example, say Dmac was a freshmen in 2007. Then, he would have spent most of his years with Petrino over Nutt, but was already a 1000 yard rusher as a true freshmen, so it's not like any coach needs credit developing him, he was going to be a stud regardless. So, typically I give the first two years to the previous coach and what comes later to the next save for JUCOs and the like. Two years can be a bit of a stretch though as it becomes debatable where the influence happened. How much of Spaight's final year was due to Robb Smith coming in vs how much was just due to things clicking for him that would have happened regardless?

Nonetheless, what the coaches have to work with as players has little to nothing to do with how much they develop them or not, IMO. DJ Williams was a talented player and hard worker regardless. He put up more numbers under Petrino than he would have with Nutt, but good players tend to be good players regardless. What you do with that talent is then on the coaching staff. So, for example, Rex Ryan inherited an all pro caliber defense with the Buffalo Bills and failed to do much with it. Because he wasn't able to develop them into his system doesn't mean he had a harder job. Those players have the same potential of talent whether Smiley is coaching them or Saban. It is then the coach's job to turn that potential talent into kinetic talent.

Is that not what I do? Childs and Wright were probably coming here regardless. Adams, Knile, Mallett, Hamilton, Nelson not. Henry and Austin were likely coming here regardless, Skipper, Kirkland, and Collins not. I guess I wasn't super explicit and consistent with that.

Point still stands, that talent on the roster that Petrino received included Luigs, Petrus, DJ Williams, Love, Bequette, Franklin, and Gatson as players who had multiple NFL games.

Bielema received Sprinkle, Kiero Small, JWill, Swanson, Hatcher, Chris Smith, Philon, Flowers, Mitchel, Hocker, Robert Thomas, and Toby Baker.

In short, ask yourself this question. If you remove the players that were already there, which coach would be in a better place. Petrino still has Mallett, Adams, Knile, Childs, Wright, Nelson, Wilson, Wingo, Hamilton, Gragg, Smith, Thomas and Hocker. The OL would be worse for wear and losing Bequette and Franklin would hurt. However, much of the core players would still be there.

For Bielema, there'd be Hunter, Austin, Collins, Kirkland, Skipper, Ragnow, Derby, Tretola, Collins, Pulley, Ellis, Morgan, Cornelius. However, no BA, no Small, no JWill, no Flowers, no Philon, no Tevin, no Hocker, no Hatcher. That 2014 season probably doesn't go to a bowl game. Doesn't bring in the excitement that helped with that class full of players that are now leaders for this coming season. Petrino likely struggles with worse line play than he had, but quantifiably, Bielema has had more overall talent to work with in the team he inherited than Petrino. People remember all the freshmen starters we had in 2013 and some as well in 2014, but 2008 was mostly new players as well as with 2009.

However, I think the SEC has been tougher overall in Bielema's tenure than Petrino's.

Well done Benny, very well done.
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Possible Oatmeal

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #186 on: March 11, 2017, 10:30:09 pm »

Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?

No.
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Hog Solo

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #187 on: March 12, 2017, 12:03:25 am »

No.  I'd be shocked if we won more than 8 regular season games in 2017.  You don't completely redo your defense and lose most of your wr firepower without taking a step back.
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nwahogfan1

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #188 on: March 12, 2017, 07:54:45 am »

Does this add any pressure on the football program to improve in what some has labeled a "do or die" season for BB?

Or

Does this give BB some leverage in pushing the idea that good things happen to those who wait and for Razorback fans to give him more time?

Also considering waiting, how long is too long or is there really a such thing as too long? I mean who really knows when a coach will hit his stride, if ever.

Our bb record is good but zero wins against a current top 35 team.  We only play a few top 35 teams because the SEC in BB is so average but when we did we were beat by double digits. CBB faces a ranked team almost ever week. So we can not compare records but even so CBB has to get us to winning 8+ games a year consistently or he will be in trouble.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #189 on: March 12, 2017, 09:31:12 am »

No.  I'd be shocked if we won more than 8 regular season games in 2017.  You don't completely redo your defense and lose most of your wr firepower without taking a step back.

Redoing the defense isn't saying much when your defense was extremely bad to begin with.  The wr will hurt a little, but with a backfield returning like we have should counter that also our qb is in his second full year as a starter so that would counter the wr problem too.

The biggest question mark is our oline. If it is bad again then it's going to be tough to get an 8 win season. 

Our schedule sets up pretty good for 8 wins. We just can't have second half games where we don't show up. 
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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #190 on: March 12, 2017, 11:52:26 am »

Hogville is fun and allows me to waste my time instead of doing something productive.  Reminds me of Obamacare versus The Affordable Care Act.  Around 20 percent of Americans like the Affordable Care Act while hating Obamacare.  Much like Hogville, that 20 percent denies their hatred and racism while presenting it in spades at an undeniable level.

So as the Head Coaches for the 2 big sports for the UofA, folks defend or rebuke based on their personal opinion while denying, undeniable facts.  Neither of these 2 HCs have produced wins at a reasonable level based on the time allowed for them to do so.  Both coaches present teams that are not well coached, that do not present mental toughness, that often appear unaware of their responsibilities on the field or court, that way too often do not give just plain old die hard effort, and neither coach seems to be able to adjust throughout the game in a positive manner.  Both coaches have the full backing of their AD.

One coach is Black and one coach is White and neither is producing at a level that suits me.  I cannot stand a person responsible for providing a service, who is well compensated to provide that service, not giving his all and even more to provide that service.  There is no excuse for failure to provide effort or not being mentally prepared for your job at hand.  Effort and a solid mental approach can be attained by anyone who can come close to passing college level studies.  It takes zero athletic talent to give extreme effort and be mentally tough. 
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #191 on: March 12, 2017, 01:25:58 pm »

No.  I'd be shocked if we won more than 8 regular season games in 2017.  You don't completely redo your defense and lose most of your wr firepower without taking a step back.

There won't be a "step back".  They'll win 6 or 7 games.
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HiggiePiggy

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #192 on: March 12, 2017, 01:45:04 pm »

Yeah. There shouldn't be anymore setbacks as far as missing bowl games from here on out. The question is can we get over the Middle and hit the top half. Being in the 6 to 8 range and moving to the 9 to 11 range is the tough part. That was and is still the question for beliema. Can he get us to the top half. This year is a good chance with the offense that is returning and a defense that can't be any worse than last year.   
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GuvHog

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #193 on: March 13, 2017, 08:29:47 am »

There won't be a "step back".  They'll win 6 or 7 games.

Winning 7 games is a sign of a stagnant football program.

Winning only 6 games is indeed a step back.

Both are unacceptable and inexcusable.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #194 on: March 13, 2017, 08:49:21 am »

Winning 7 games is a sign of a stagnant football program.

Winning only 6 games is indeed a step back.

Both are unacceptable and inexcusable.

I agree with you.

...but he's not going anywhere.
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root_hawg

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #195 on: March 13, 2017, 08:49:40 am »

Let's compare the worse power 5 conference in basketball with the best power 5 in football and hold both coaches to the same standard.... yeah that's intelligent
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #196 on: March 13, 2017, 08:54:53 am »

Let's compare the worse power 5 conference in basketball with the best power 5 in football and hold both coaches to the same standard.... yeah that's intelligent

The ACC and Clemson say hi.   :D
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gchamblee

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #197 on: March 13, 2017, 10:59:18 am »

The ACC and Clemson say hi.   :D

There's more to history than yesterday. Your troll act is tiresome.
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hogcard1964

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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #198 on: March 13, 2017, 11:15:21 am »

There's more to history than yesterday. Your troll act is tiresome.

I'm not trolling you.  I'm simply stating verifiable facts based on statistics.  I'm by no means trying to take anything away from the SEC.  It's been a powerful conference and probably the overall best throughout the past 30 or so odd years.  However, I don't think there's any doubt the ACC has been a bit stronger over the past 2 years.
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Re: Does the recent success of MA bode good or bad for BB?
« Reply #199 on: March 13, 2017, 11:21:10 am »

The ACC and Clemson say hi.   :D

Well I imagine so considering that all they have to do is beat Florida State to win the ACC most years. Over 70% of the ACC hasn't beaten more than 3 ranked teams in the last 4 years, and there is only 1 team among that 70%+ that has done that. And don't bring Louisville into this discussion, their record against ranked teams the last 4 years? 1-9
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