College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?

[hogsanity]

The problem with the status qou is that officials have way too much say in the outcome of the game. If they call it really close then it gives an advantage to finesse teams. If they call it loose they give an advantage to more physical teams.

You just described much of the problem right there. Calling close, ie by the book, favors finesse teams. In other words teams that do not slap hack push all the time are not called for as many fouls as "physical" team that does push hack slap and shove all the time. That has nothing to do with incompetence or corruption, that has to do with players/teams pushing the envelop with the rules. It is like offensive linemen in football, always trying to see how much holding they can get away with instead of blocking by the rules in the book.

Do you really want basketball refs calling "by the book " if not then you are saying you want them to have their own interpretation of the rules, and no 2 people will interpret them the same way.

[Timfromlittlerockhog]

Maybe they could give coaches two challenges per game. But then again you see what happens when officials go to the monitor. Too much pride to over turn an obvious mistake. If they started giving them a fine every time they blew a call that could help. I don't know how much money they make. But they are obviously overpaid. Most of them live in their mom's basement anyway.

[hogsanity]

Maybe they could give coaches two challenges per game. But then again you see what happens when officials go to the monitor. Too much pride to over turn an obvious mistake. If they started giving them a fine every time they blew a call that could help. I don't know how much money they make. But they are obviously overpaid. Most of them live in their mom's basement anyway.

You are obviously a troll, but I am bored so i will play.

They do get fined, because if they are not good they do not get as many games, and do not get post season assignments. Since refs make around $3k per game in the SEC, only getting 20 games instead of 25 is about a $15k fine.

And who decides if they "blew" a call. While I think pretty much everyone thinks the call on Moses was bad, I am sure if they were infront of their bosses, they would ague that from their view Moses did not go straight up, and his elbow was sticking out slightly. That is what they would say, so who would decide that was right or wrong?

[Youngsta71701]

College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?

Like I said earlier, both. But I'm starting to lean to the side of corrupt more and more after each road game. Especially in Kentucky and Florida. We dealt with it a little bit in South Carolina but we had enough firepower to overcome it.

[XavierZane]

Changing the rules to make a more playable/enforceable game, getting rid of refs entirely, or making current refs call games by the book each in my opinion is a better situation than the one that currently exists. 

[Timfromlittlerockhog]

Changing the rules to make a more playable/enforceable game, getting rid of refs entirely, or making current refs call games by the book each in my opinion is a better situation than the one that currently exists.

I say they start giving out fines to entire crews. Each time a bad call is discovered you fine them.

[ShadowHawg]

One way to address this problem is for the NCAA to hire, train and fire its own referees.  With the amounts of money flowing around college athletics, there is NO reason not to have full time officials.  Among the advantages to this approach would be the ability to deliver a more consistent interpretation of the rules as continued (year round) training would be possible. 

There is more than enough money for this effort.

These officials could referee other levels of play in the off season.  For example, basketball officials could work the D league (or other similar leagues).  It might even be possible for the NBA and NCAA to work together to develop referees.

It needs to happen.

Not a bad idea at all.

[Sanctified Swine]

I believe one of the problems with college officiating in both football and basketball is the obvious conflict of interest with officials working for the conferences. There is way too much money at stake for conferences needing to protect teams, when these same conferences are also who signs the paychecks of the officials...well doo doo happens. Even it its not direct, officials know that the conferences know, which officials have their back. You cant help but know that.

Solution would be for officials to come from outside the conferences.

[hogsanity]

I believe one of the problems with college officiating in both football and basketball is the obvious conflict of interest with officials working for the conferences. There is way too much money at stake for conferences needing to protect teams, when these same conferences are also who signs the paychecks of the officials...well doo doo happens. Even it its not direct, officials know that the conferences know, which officials have their back. You cant help but know that.

Solution would be for officials to come from outside the conferences.

You do know, in basketball, the conferences have no officials. Yes, they pay the crew, but the guys work for multiple leagues. I know a guy who has worked games for 4 different leagues this year, SEC, Big12, Big South and Sunbelt.

[XavierZane]

The charge/contact after a pass rulings are nearly as bad as regular charges/blocks.  Just now in KYvsA&M the Kentucky ball-handler bowled over an A&M player right after passing to the perimeter.  No call, three points for Kentucky to help them back into another game where they're down huge.  I'm pretty sure we got an offensive foul called against us for the same thing against Florida last game, and I know I've seen it called several times this season on teams playing Kentucky. 

[hogsanity]

The charge/contact after a pass rulings are nearly as bad as regular charges/blocks.  Just now in KYvsA&M the Kentucky ball-handler bowled over an A&M player right after passing to the perimeter.  No call, three points for Kentucky to help them back into another game where they're down huge.  I'm pretty sure we got an offensive foul called against us for the same thing against Florida last game, and I know I've seen it called several times this season on teams playing Kentucky. 

right or wrong alot of refs wont call that because no advantage is gained if both players end up on the floor.

[XavierZane]

Refs did a good job giving the first half of the Mizzou vs. Ole Miss game to Ole Miss.  Three times as many fouls called on Missouri for most of the half, leading to 10+ more free throws.  Charges getting called on Mizzou for Ole Miss defenders jumping into them while they drive.  Mizzou finally got into the bonus... with a few seconds left.  Ole Miss up at the half by the extra ten points the refs handed them.   

ETA: ...and they get even worse in the second half!

[jfred59]

Refs did a good job giving the first half of the Mizzou vs. Ole Miss game to Ole Miss.  Three times as many fouls called on Missouri for most of the half, leading to 10+ more free throws.  Charges getting called on Mizzou for Ole Miss defenders jumping into them while they drive.  Mizzou finally got into the bonus... with a few seconds left.  Ole Miss up at the half by the extra ten points the refs handed them.   

ETA: ...and they get even worse in the second half!

That double foul call ought to let everyone know that they are going to protect OM tonight

[XavierZane]

Final tally for free throws: 13 attempts for Missouri.  47 attempts for Ole Miss. 

One thing I've learned from the refs this game is that it's a foul on you when someone pushes you over and steps on your head. 

[Hogimus Prime]

I watched the Duke/Louisville game today and it seemed like everytime Grayson Allen drove he was pushing off.

[ronmahony]

Final tally for free throws: 13 attempts for Missouri.  47 attempts for Ole Miss. 

One thing I've learned from the refs this game is that it's a foul on you when someone pushes you over and steps on your head. 

That was ridiculous. Especially as they had called two technicals against Missouri just a few minutes before that. I think if that wouldn't have been the coaches last game he should have just walked the team off the court in protest.That was an obvious flagrant foul.

[hogsanity]

Final tally for free throws: 13 attempts for Missouri.  47 attempts for Ole Miss. 

One thing I've learned from the refs this game is that it's a foul on you when someone pushes you over and steps on your head. 

You do know that old misses is either 1st or 2nd in the nation in free throws made, top 10 in ft attempts as well. It's not like they usually never go to the line. They do this every game.

[Biggus Piggus]

Main problem I see is crews being mixed and matched all the time. The power among refs is never balanced when they are unused to each other.

[hogfan10]

You do know, in basketball, the conferences have no officials. Yes, they pay the crew, but the guys work for multiple leagues. I know a guy who has worked games for 4 different leagues this year, SEC, Big12, Big South and Sunbelt.

But each league has a "Head of Officials". That head of officials is in charge of hiring officials for each game, and he (or the league) has a standard/philosophy of how they want XYZ league games to be officiated (whether stated or not). If officials don't follow those standards/philosophies, they will not continue to be hired for the XYZ league games.

[DeltaBoy]

They are a bit of both Incompetent and Corrupt .

[hogsanity]

But each league has a "Head of Officials". That head of officials is in charge of hiring officials for each game, and he (or the league) has a standard/philosophy of how they want XYZ league games to be officiated (whether stated or not). If officials don't follow those standards/philosophies, they will not continue to be hired for the XYZ league games.

Ok, lets assume that is 100% true, how does that make an official either incompetent or corrupt?

That double foul call ought to let everyone know that they are going to protect OM tonight

What on earth would the SEC gain from "protecting" old misses? They are only making the ncaat if the win the sect. I guess, MAYBE, they are on the NIT bubble, so there is that I guess.

[XavierZane]

You do know that old misses is either 1st or 2nd in the nation in free throws made, top 10 in ft attempts as well. It's not like they usually never go to the line. They do this every game.

Yeah, I've watched enough of their games to know that the SEC generally lets media-darling Saiz do whatever he wants defensively while calling a foul every time a defender breaths too hard near him.  But even still Ole Miss only averages ~27 attempts a game.  Missouri averages about ~23.  So Ole Miss got twenty more than their average and Missouri ten fewer, but I'm supposed to pretend this was just an average game?

Two techs and a flagrant one got called on Missouri, none of which were particularly warranted.  The flagrant one especially was bogus, managing to both miss an obvious foul on Ole Miss during the steal and over-punish a legit play on the ball.  Then there's the double-foul that should have been at least possession back to Missouri, if not free throws too.

It's pretty amazing that Missouri only lost by 12 given the -34 free-throw handicap and the refs in general.

[ErieHog]

Not a bad idea at all.

Hard to do, with an official $400M operational loss.  That said, a big part of that is a one time expense, and creative book-keeping, but paying for a major new program for officiating just isn't in the cards.

[hogsanity]

One way to address this problem is for the NCAA to hire, train and fire its own referees.  With the amounts of money flowing around college athletics, there is NO reason not to have full time officials.  Among the advantages to this approach would be the ability to deliver a more consistent interpretation of the rules as continued (year round) training would be possible. 

There is more than enough money for this effort.

These officials could referee other levels of play in the off season.  For example, basketball officials could work the D league (or other similar leagues).  It might even be possible for the NBA and NCAA to work together to develop referees.

It needs to happen. 

Ok, 1st you have to pay guys enough for them to give up their day jobs. Then, assuming they could work D league or other levels, you have to assume they want to travel year round. As for the D league, the NBA uses that to train their own guys, and the game is officiated differently in the nba than is college. The NBA is much more a show league, at least until the playoffs anyway.

Lets go with it though, the NCAA now trains and assigns all the refs. Are they going to just send crews willy nilly all over the map? Are they going to fly a crew to LA for a UCLA game on Monday, then to Ann Arbor for a Mich game on Tues, then maybe to Auburn for a game there on Thursday? No, they are going to regionalize the refs to save on travel expense and travel wear on the officials, so you will be right back with the same guys calling the same basic area all season which is what we have now.

[ShadowHawg]

Ok, 1st you have to pay guys enough for them to give up their day jobs. Then, assuming they could work D league or other levels, you have to assume they want to travel year round. As for the D league, the NBA uses that to train their own guys, and the game is officiated differently in the nba than is college. The NBA is much more a show league, at least until the playoffs anyway.

Lets go with it though, the NCAA now trains and assigns all the refs. Are they going to just send crews willy nilly all over the map? Are they going to fly a crew to LA for a UCLA game on Monday, then to Ann Arbor for a Mich game on Tues, then maybe to Auburn for a game there on Thursday? No, they are going to regionalize the refs to save on travel expense and travel wear on the officials, so you will be right back with the same guys calling the same basic area all season which is what we have now.

But with more uniform application of the rules and more accountability.

[jesterzzn]

But each league has a "Head of Officials". That head of officials is in charge of hiring officials for each game, and he (or the league) has a standard/philosophy of how they want XYZ league games to be officiated (whether stated or not). If officials don't follow those standards/philosophies, they will not continue to be hired for the XYZ league games.

This is true, to a point.  Each conference makes requests from a pool of available officials.  If the same official is requested by more than one school/conference on the same night, as I understand it, the choice is entirely his as to which gig he officiates.  Most Conferences assign the officials for the teams, but teams are free to make requests and they are often met.

The bottom line is that if officials didn't influence outcome, Vegas books wouldn't change +/- lines when ref assignments are updated...they do.  Getting ref assignments before they are made public is like being handed insider stock info. 

Don't believe me?  Watch the +/- line drop 10-15 points the next time Jamie Luckie is a fill in.  He filled in something like 20 times last year, and if you had the under before his announcement, you won every. single. time.

And if you don't think refs know this about themselves, you are crazy.

So are they corrupt?  I can't say for sure.  But would it be easy to make money (a lot of money) by filling in on a low profile game and influencing the score line?  You better believe it.

[lumphog]

Half the people in this thread be like...

BECAUSE IT IS!!!!!!!

[XavierZane]

refs even more in love with Saiz than usual this game, but we over came

[hogsanity]

refs even more in love with Saiz than usual this game, but we over came

old misses only shot 14 ft's, they average making like 27 a game, and they shot something like 41 against Mizzu. Hogs had almost as many makes as ole misses had attempts.

[azhog10]

right or wrong alot of refs wont call that because no advantage is gained if both players end up on the floor.

Ive seen refs make a lot of calls when no advantage was gained. Again the objectivity and confusion between official to official is too high for people meant to enforce the rules of the game.

[azhog10]

old misses only shot 14 ft's, they average making like 27 a game, and they shot something like 41 against Mizzu. Hogs had almost as many makes as ole misses had attempts.

So what you are saying is we did a great job of playing defense and not "rat ball"? Or would that be too positive for you?

[hogfanny]

College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?

Like I said earlier, both. But I'm starting to lean to the side of corrupt more and more after each road game. Especially in Kentucky and Florida. We dealt with it a little bit in South Carolina but we had enough firepower to overcome it.

Corrupt by a longshot. They know exactly what they are doing.

[XavierZane]

Wow!  Most blatant missed goaltending in the history of the sport just now in the KY game.  Even Vitale had to call it out

[hogsanity]

So what you are saying is we did a great job of playing defense and not "rat ball"? Or would that be too positive for you?

Or, to go with the usual conspiracy theories about refs here, the refs were protecting the Hogs.

What I saw was a game where the refs let both teams play all night, right down to the last old misses possession when there was a lot of banging going on by both teams.

[hogfanny]

Wow!  Most blatant missed goaltending in the history of the sport just now in the KY game.  Even Vitale had to call it out

I was watching that too. Avery had a legit gripe on that one.

[XavierZane]

My version of heaven might be getting to watch an unbiased Kentucky vs. Arkansas game.   

Or maybe just an unofficiated one.  I agree with Bret and Brandon:

Brandon Allen‏ @BrandonAllen_10
Love the physicality #gohogs

Bret Bielema @BretBielema
#WoooPig also love the smiles and hugs the officials give Kentucky players when talking to them about the game and ending

[Hogsolo]

It's corrupt and has been for at least 30 years.

[raz1965]

If the coaches were allowed to speak publicly about officials it might help some. It's like keep quite where we can do as we please.

[jfred59]

If the coaches were allowed to speak publicly about officials it might help some. It's like keep quite where we can do as we please.

I have thought this for years.  Let them say something.  We all know what goes on with officials and extra checks

[XavierZane]

Yeah, I think the most absurd rule in sports are the fines coaches get if they call out officials.  That's imo the most obvious sign that the system is, if not corrupt, rigged.

ETA:  Yesterday a Vandy player pushed over one of ours and stepped on his head, and it's called a double foul.  Today an Arkansas pushed over a Kentucky player, and it's called a flagrant one.  Classic. 

[hogsanity]

  We all know what goes on with officials and extra checks

Link? Proof?

[hogsanity]

My version of heaven might be getting to watch an unbiased Kentucky vs. Arkansas game.   

Or maybe just an unofficiated one.  I agree with Bret and Brandon:

Brandon Allen‏ @BrandonAllen_10
Love the physicality #gohogs

Bret Bielema @BretBielema
#WoooPig also love the smiles and hugs the officials give Kentucky players when talking to them about the game and ending

Too bad the hogs were not that physical the 1st 27 minutes of the game.

[XavierZane]

Too bad the hogs were not that physical the 1st 27 minutes of the game.

I agree.  I said in the game thread that my only problem with their actions late was that they hadn't been playing that way the whole time.  But early on they were probably hoping to get a fair shake. 

[Dropkick]

YES!

[jfred59]

Link? Proof?

Just because you are one why do you keep defending those crooks?  Everyone knows Doug Shows hates Arkansas yet they send him to call our games.  He is about as bad as Cal.  We all know that most SEC officials shouldnt even be calling a church league game.

[KennyForAD]

Is this a joke?  Of COURSE its incompetent... and corrupt.  Look at the Federal Government.  Could anything be more incompetent or corrupt?  Look at our legal system.  Its been devoured by incompetence and corruption.   You think sports would be any different?   This is our society, sadly. 

Incompetence, corruption, and obesity pretty well define us.  #NewRomanEmpire

[PonderinHog]

Nothing to see here!

[Hogimus Prime]

Corrupt.  Even Hogville's head official he'd be biased against teams that play 'rat ball'.

Time to replace human officials with robots. Robots that aren't biased old men that don't want an uptempo game or can be bought off.

[MountieDawg]

Just because you are one why do you keep defending those crooks?  Everyone knows Doug Shows hates Arkansas yet they send him to call our games.  He is about as bad as Cal.  We all know that most SEC officials shouldnt even be calling a church league game.

Since 2012 UK has 20 wins and 10 losses when Doug Shows refs.  In those years UK has a Natl Championship and a 38-1 season.  In those years UK's record is 152 -29 Doug Shows has been the referee in 10 of those 29 losses.  With him being the referee in over a third of UK's losses I would say that does not make him a UK homer. He has been the referee in 1/6th of their games and 35 percent of their losses.

[KennyForAD]

Since 2012 UK has 20 wins and 10 losses when Doug Shows refs.  In those years UK has a Natl Championship and a 38-1 season.  In those years UK's record is 152 -29 Doug Shows has been the referee in 10 of those 29 losses.  With him being the referee in over a third of UK's losses I would say that does not make him a UK homer. He has been the referee in 1/6th of their games and 35 percent of their losses.

That's an interesting stat.  I wonder what the spreads were in those games ...