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Author Topic: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?  (Read 3852 times)

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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #50 on: March 01, 2017, 12:18:20 pm »


We can discuss this question broadly, but I would also like this to act as an ongoing repository of specific examples from individual games.  Primarily Hog games, of course, but not only them. 
 

Do you think it merely coincidence that the Hogs foul count went down when they went to the zone defense? I mean they had a half where they only got called for 4 fouls.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #51 on: March 01, 2017, 12:21:15 pm »

more imagined statements. No one ever said refs do not make bad calls.
Hogsanity, I was just picking with you man. Although you do seem to protect the referees a lot and act like Hog fans are the only ones that think this way or are the only ones that's supposed to look the other way like this type of thing doesn't happen. I don't. I believe if a referee just calls what he sees without being bias one way or the other they are doing a good job as long as they are consistent. Plain & Simple. Unless of course you have one that just doesn't know the rules then that would be bad. And do not, I repeat, do not anticipate calls. Wait for something to happen then make the call. Don't look for something to happen.
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #52 on: March 01, 2017, 12:24:29 pm »

Hogsanity, I was just picking with you man. Although you do seem to protect the referees a lot and act like Hog fans are the only ones that think this way or are the only ones that's supposed to look the other way like this type of thing doesn't happen. I don't. I believe if a referee just calls what he sees without being bias one way or the other they are doing a good job as long as they are consistent. Plain & Simple. Unless of course you have one that just doesn't know the rules then that would be bad. And on not, I repeat, do not anticipate calls. Wait for something to happen then make the call. Don't look for something to happen.

Calls what he sees is what a vast majority of them do, it is just most fans do not see the same things. And of course me talking about where I ref is crazy trying to compare that to a p5 college ref. I've called more lousy 9th grade games in hole in the roads than I can count. I can not imagine trying to call a college game with the speed & size of those guys.
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hawgwash

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2017, 12:53:19 pm »

This is a thread I've been considering for awhile.  Every basketball game I watch, not exclusively but mostly in the SEC, I am flabbergasted at the terrible officiating on display.  It is heinous both in the application of the rules and in consistently holding teams to the same standards.  So with that in mind, this thread is to discuss the title question:  is the terrible officiating we see a sign of incompetent officials who are allowed to bungle along without oversight, or is there a genuine directive from SEC, NCAA, ESPN, or whoever to bias the game towards the ranked team, the team that's in next week's Blockbuster, the team that is part of a historic program, etc. 

We can discuss this question broadly, but I would also like this to act as an ongoing repository of specific examples from individual games.  Primarily Hog games, of course, but not only them.  The bias on display in the KY game I just watched is what pushed me to finally make this thread, after all.  Since refs cannot be held accountable for their bad calls and constant mistakes, I'd like this thread to be a place where fans can hold them accountable.  Even if it is only among ourselves.  Over time, it could become an archive of terrible calls, unfair rulings, phantom turnovers, and epic screwjobs that can be returned to whenever someone needs an example of what those miserable, stinking refs pulled.

To begin the discussion and answer my own question, I think it's corruption (or at least close to corruption).  Especially nowadays.  In the past teams had to deal with home court bias, but now tv schedules and pre-planned production narratives rule the day, blockbuster games have to be generated and protected, and media-darling players are given free reign.  Too much money and media coverage has made the games too important to certain (literally) invested persons and organizations.
First let me say I didn't watch last night's game so I can't comment on that specifically.  Having said that, have you ever officiated a meaningful number of games in any sport?  When I was in high school and college I made extra money by umpiring baseball.  Not real high levels, but Babe Ruth league, American Legion, and one summer women's softball (where I had my worst experience as an ump). 

This experience changed my perspective on all officials.  I think 99.9% of all officials are just trying to do the best job they can.  Realize they are human just like you.  And it's not an easy job.  I think baseball is probably the easiest game to call.  You have time to get in position and set before every pitch.  Things are pretty much black or white (the runner beat the throw or he didn't, the ball hit on or inside the foul line, or it hit outside).  Still you make mistakes.  Basketball is probably much harder with the constant movement and some judgment (do you call EVERY possible foul you see, or do you let them play a bit).  If you've ever officiated, you know that no official is perfect.  But in almost all cases they couldn't care less which team wins.  Knowledge of the rules, integrity, and consistency is about the best you can hope for.  And even then there will be errors.

I've often thought it would be a good idea for someone to do a study by interviewing fans of both teams following a game and asking what they thought of the officials.  My guess is in general the fans of the winning team will always have a higher opinion.  And fans of BOTH teams will think the refs were biased in favor of the other team.  And if fans of both teams think the other team got all or most of the close calls, then the officials are probably doing a good job.
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Dr. Starcs

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2017, 12:56:32 pm »

Sports illustrated did a big article several years ago about home field advantage in all the major sports.

They found that the primary reason for such advantage is none other than referees. They're human yes, but humans are biased even if it's subconscious.
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2017, 01:02:38 pm »

Do you think it merely coincidence that the Hogs foul count went down when they went to the zone defense? I mean they had a half where they only got called for 4 fouls.
They also had a half against Auburn where they were called for 9 fouls before the 10 minute mark.......
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2017, 01:03:58 pm »

Hogsanity, I was just picking with you man. Although you do seem to protect the referees a lot and act like Hog fans are the only ones that think this way or are the only ones that's supposed to look the other way like this type of thing doesn't happen. I don't. I believe if a referee just calls what he sees without being bias one way or the other they are doing a good job as long as they are consistent. Plain & Simple. Unless of course you have one that just doesn't know the rules then that would be bad. And do not, I repeat, do not anticipate calls. Wait for something to happen then make the call. Don't look for something to happen.
What about if the ref waits to see if the shooter made the layup? I watched the Duke vs. FSU game the other night. Swear I saw that a couple times where the ref waited to see if the Duke player made the layup and then called the foul after he missed.
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ErieHog

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2017, 01:06:12 pm »

Its a measure of the limits of human competence in a sport where the players are on a big upswing in size and athleticism, and the officials are not.

Throw in that rules are constantly adjusting, and that officials are no different than players-- they have to adjust how they call, too--  and it will always seem like officiating is inconsistent.

Oh-- and good teams tend to always get calls, no matter the level or the officials-- they are more likely to be in position and create plays that generate fouls-- in a game where moving your feet 3 inches is the difference between an And 1, and a momentum shifting offensive foul,  ability matters..   That's not a product of bias, that's a product of differentiation in ability.

Anyway.    We're nearing a point in ability among players where the college game may need to look at adding another ref to games, or at least examining how they teach officials to position themselves.
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #58 on: March 01, 2017, 01:10:12 pm »

Its a measure of the limits of human competence in a sport where the players are on a big upswing in size and athleticism, and the officials are not.

Throw in that rules are constantly adjusting, and that officials are no different than players-- they have to adjust how they call, too--  and it will always seem like officiating is inconsistent.

Oh-- and good teams tend to always get calls, no matter the level or the officials-- they are more likely to be in position and create plays that generate fouls-- in a game where moving your feet 3 inches is the difference between an And 1, and a momentum shifting offensive foul,  ability matters..   That's not a product of bias, that's a product of differentiation in ability.

Anyway.    We're nearing a point in ability among players where the college game may need to look at adding another ref to games, or at least examining how they teach officials to position themselves.
Adding a ref isn't needed. What's needed is loosening up on some of the calls or adding 6 fouls before you foul out or changing the bonus situation. I would be open to going more of a situation like the NBA where you wipe the bonus each quarter, or for college at the 10 minute mark. I would like to see each player get 6 fouls as you can almost always bet, there's going to be one foul on a key player that should have never been called.
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ErieHog

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2017, 01:18:08 pm »

Adding a ref isn't needed. What's needed is loosening up on some of the calls or adding 6 fouls before you foul out or changing the bonus situation. I would be open to going more of a situation like the NBA where you wipe the bonus each quarter, or for college at the 10 minute mark. I would like to see each player get 6 fouls as you can almost always bet, there's going to be one foul on a key player that should have never been called.

I think that differentiating the college game from the pro game is pretty important, to sustaining interest in it among casual fans as a separate brand.

Its not so much about having another official do what current officials do,  but changing the spacing of officiating.   The rotations and responsibilities of a 3 man crew and a 2 man crew are different-- and really, both should be heartily re-examined, for better ways to do it, and experimented upon in exhibition basketball.

I do think that refereeing is a prisoner of  'we do it this way, because we have always done it this way' thinking---  and I don't know who will be radical enough to propose a systemic change.  Most likely, that will have to come from the NBA and trickle down.
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2017, 01:42:18 pm »

I think that differentiating the college game from the pro game is pretty important, to sustaining interest in it among casual fans as a separate brand.

Its not so much about having another official do what current officials do,  but changing the spacing of officiating.   The rotations and responsibilities of a 3 man crew and a 2 man crew are different-- and really, both should be heartily re-examined, for better ways to do it, and experimented upon in exhibition basketball.

I do think that refereeing is a prisoner of  'we do it this way, because we have always done it this way' thinking---  and I don't know who will be radical enough to propose a systemic change.  Most likely, that will have to come from the NBA and trickle down.
I understand being different. But when you tighten how the game is called, to a point that is almost impossible for most. Then give the players a little more cushion. Give them that extra foul if you aren't going to change the way you call the game. The crazy thing, when the NCAAT starts you will see the foul count go down, most will say because you are watching better basketball teams, but I've seen top 25 teams playing early in the second half in the bonus. So it's not the players or the coaches. It's how the game is officiated.
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Grizzlyfan

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #61 on: March 01, 2017, 01:45:27 pm »

Look at the 3 people officiating a basketball game and then look at the 10 players on the court playing the game.  In general, the referees in college and even high level high school basketball can't keep pace with the game.  The games I see in person most often are Northside High School.  You put the Grizzlies out there against North Little Rock or Central and the officials just can't keep up with the speed of those games.
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ErieHog

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #62 on: March 01, 2017, 01:48:56 pm »

I understand being different. But when you tighten how the game is called, to a point that is almost impossible for most. Then give the players a little more cushion. Give them that extra foul if you aren't going to change the way you call the game. The crazy thing, when the NCAAT starts you will see the foul count go down, most will say because you are watching better basketball teams, but I've seen top 25 teams playing early in the second half in the bonus. So it's not the players or the coaches. It's how the game is officiated.

The game isn't officiated that differently-- what does happen is that while the quality of play is improving, so is the timing and rhythm of the officiating-- instead of travelling two or three days a week, working two or three games in two different time zones, officials get to stay in a single spot to call their games, and don't get as much 'down' time.  Likewise, the worst of the bunch tend to not be officiating as the number of games winnows down, creating a process whereby thee worst offenses of officiating are less likely to happen.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #63 on: March 01, 2017, 02:01:32 pm »

Calls what he sees is what a vast majority of them do, it is just most fans do not see the same things. And of course me talking about where I ref is crazy trying to compare that to a p5 college ref. I've called more lousy 9th grade games in hole in the roads than I can count. I can not imagine trying to call a college game with the speed & size of those guys.
I'm with you on this one. No doubt they have a hard job. I just don't like seeing the obvious calls go the wrong way. When it gets blatant then it's bad. Even when some of them realize they have made a bad call or the wrong call after consulting with the other two officials they have too much pride to admit it or change it. Those are the ones that get under my skin. I'll change my call in a second when one of the others tell me they had a better view and seen something different. Just get the call right. That's all you can ask for. It's not hard just don't have too much pride and think your always right and never wrong.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #64 on: March 01, 2017, 02:02:23 pm »

What about if the ref waits to see if the shooter made the layup? I watched the Duke vs. FSU game the other night. Swear I saw that a couple times where the ref waited to see if the Duke player made the layup and then called the foul after he missed.
Can't stand it. See it in the NBA all the time. A foul is a foul rather they miss the layup/dunk or not. Make the call.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #65 on: March 01, 2017, 02:04:41 pm »

Its a measure of the limits of human competence in a sport where the players are on a big upswing in size and athleticism, and the officials are not.

Throw in that rules are constantly adjusting, and that officials are no different than players-- they have to adjust how they call, too--  and it will always seem like officiating is inconsistent.

Oh-- and good teams tend to always get calls, no matter the level or the officials-- they are more likely to be in position and create plays that generate fouls-- in a game where moving your feet 3 inches is the difference between an And 1, and a momentum shifting offensive foul,  ability matters..   That's not a product of bias, that's a product of differentiation in ability.

Anyway.    We're nearing a point in ability among players where the college game may need to look at adding another ref to games, or at least examining how they teach officials to position themselves.
I was thinking the same thing. They may need to add a 4th official to the crew so someone can see all angles and sides.
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #66 on: March 01, 2017, 02:07:47 pm »

The game isn't officiated that differently--
We can agree to disagree. I have played teams, got beat by 30, played the next week at their place and won by 10. We didn't play that much differently, the only thing that changed was the officials.

Now you may be talking from regular season to playoffs and I would again agree to disagree.....
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #67 on: March 01, 2017, 02:11:27 pm »

I'm with you on this one. No doubt they have a hard job. I just don't like seeing the obvious calls go the wrong way. When it gets blatant then it's bad. Even when some of them realize they have made a bad call or the wrong call after consulting with the other two officials they have too much pride to admit it or change it. Those are the ones that get under my skin. I'll change my call in a second when one of the others tell me they had a better view and seen something different. Just get the call right. That's all you can ask for. It's not hard just don't have too much pride and think your always right and never wrong.

I was thinking the same thing. They may need to add a 4th official to the crew so someone can see all angles and sides.

I don't know. Did you happen to see the game earlier this year, I think it was Indiana and Purdue. Guy drives and the baseline ref calls block and the wing official calls charge. Neither would budge so they ended up calling a double foul. 

Sometimes I wonder if two man does not produce a better product. The old too many cooks theory. With 3 guys looking for violations, you can always find one.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #68 on: March 01, 2017, 02:20:50 pm »

Adding a ref isn't needed. What's needed is loosening up on some of the calls or adding 6 fouls before you foul out or changing the bonus situation. I would be open to going more of a situation like the NBA where you wipe the bonus each quarter, or for college at the 10 minute mark. I would like to see each player get 6 fouls as you can almost always bet, there's going to be one foul on a key player that should have never been called.
It's not just the foul calls. Sometimes simple out of bounds calls are missed because an official just didn't see it because he wasn't on the baseline or sideline when it happens. The 4th official will keep someone in the spots at all times so less calls will be missed. Even traveling, carrying, or double dribbles for that matter will be seen more often than not.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 03:20:20 pm by Youngsta71701 »
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #69 on: March 01, 2017, 02:22:56 pm »

I don't know. Did you happen to see the game earlier this year, I think it was Indiana and Purdue. Guy drives and the baseline ref calls block and the wing official calls charge. Neither would budge so they ended up calling a double foul. 

Sometimes I wonder if two man does not produce a better product. The old too many cooks theory. With 3 guys looking for violations, you can always find one.
You might have a point there. Tough call. I guess it depends on the crew. Has to be some give and take involved.
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azhog10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #70 on: March 01, 2017, 02:23:26 pm »

It's not just the foul calls. Sometimes simple out of bounds calls are missed because an official just didn't see it because he was on the baseline or sideline when it happens. The 4th official will keep someone in the spots at all times so less calls will be missed. Even traveling, carrying, or double dribbles for that matter will be seen more often than not.
Would it help? Maybe, but you could give a coach a challenge and the out of bounds calls could be fixed with replay and all the critical ones are already replayed. The double dribbles and carries aren't as important as there is almost always a ref on the ball watching. I also don't know that adding another "mediocre" ref is going to help. Only adding another guy that can decide he sees something that doesn't. More fouls will be called when you add another ref and that's not what is needed. What's needed is less fouls and I don't think adding an official does that.
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jusgtohogs

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #71 on: March 01, 2017, 02:39:35 pm »

I feel you but I would add that it isn't limited to college basketball...

the attention to detail and striving for perfection is sorely missing in almost every job/industry in the country.  For the most, people don't take pride in what they do for a living any more.  Not true of everyone, but it does seem to be more rampant.  Being on TV certainly makes it more visible.
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Bogghawg

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #72 on: March 01, 2017, 03:22:30 pm »

It would help if there were some autonomous organization that supplied officials for the NCAA.  It is asking for it when any given conference, like the SEC, with all it's own vested interests, employees and influences the referees, knowingly or otherwise.
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Youngsta71701

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #73 on: March 01, 2017, 03:22:47 pm »

Would it help? Maybe, but you could give a coach a challenge and the out of bounds calls could be fixed with replay and all the critical ones are already replayed. The double dribbles and carries aren't as important as there is almost always a ref on the ball watching. I also don't know that adding another "mediocre" ref is going to help. Only adding another guy that can decide he sees something that doesn't. More fouls will be called when you add another ref and that's not what is needed. What's needed is less fouls and I don't think adding an official does that.
Ha ha ha...You may have a point there also. Might be too many chiefs. When I was growing up we didn't believe in calling a foul unless it was a FOUL. Know what I mean. No harm no foul.
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #74 on: March 01, 2017, 03:27:55 pm »

Would it help? Maybe, but you could give a coach a challenge and the out of bounds calls could be fixed with replay and all the critical ones are already replayed. The double dribbles and carries aren't as important as there is almost always a ref on the ball watching. I also don't know that adding another "mediocre" ref is going to help. Only adding another guy that can decide he sees something that doesn't. More fouls will be called when you add another ref and that's not what is needed. What's needed is less fouls and I don't think adding an official does that.

One of the problems now is there are not enough guys to go around. There are guys being fast tracked to college, but they are just now calling high level juco, and single bid leagues like the swac.

Same thing happened in football when some leagues went to 8 man crews, they realized there were not enough qualified guys to go around. They literally had a camp in Kansas last July and hired 3 guys straight to college crews for non-p5 leagues.
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upperdeck_hawg

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #75 on: March 01, 2017, 04:16:51 pm »

If anything I feel it is less corrupt than it used to be in the SEC. There was clear direction in the past to protect the home team. I guess the feeling was to give the home paying crowd a desired result so they would keep on coming back and paying. Thus the home court officiating bias was not just a myth. This year, the SEC has clearly changed their tune. They realize that a road win counts more in the NCAA selection committee's eyes. I'm not seeing the same bias against road teams as in the past. And guess what, SEC road teams are doing better this year than ever. Coincidence or directive to get road teams more wins?

The SEC hired a firm to help SEC teams schedule better so SEC teams RPI's are reflected better. Why wouldn't they take it a step further in protecting or at least giving the road teams a fair chance at getting more road wins.
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MountieDawg

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #76 on: March 01, 2017, 04:38:12 pm »

Adding a ref isn't needed. What's needed is loosening up on some of the calls or adding 6 fouls before you foul out or changing the bonus situation. I would be open to going more of a situation like the NBA where you wipe the bonus each quarter, or for college at the 10 minute mark. I would like to see each player get 6 fouls as you can almost always bet, there's going to be one foul on a key player that should have never been called.

IF you allow a player to have more fouls there will be more and more fouls called in a game...  Players wont worry as much about slapping and grabbing... The game would probably open up more if you only got 4 fouls but I prefer sticking with 5.
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JONAS

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #77 on: March 01, 2017, 05:49:46 pm »

I'd feel great if I could personally dismiss an official or two

I would if I could dismiss all SEC officials.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #78 on: March 01, 2017, 05:59:24 pm »

Calls what he sees is what a vast majority of them do, it is just most fans do not see the same things. And of course me talking about where I ref is crazy trying to compare that to a p5 college ref. I've called more lousy 9th grade games in hole in the roads than I can count. I can not imagine trying to call a college game with the speed & size of those guys.

I saw a call that went against Barford in the Aggies game where the ref actually blew the whistle before Barford had leaped to block the shot attempt.

Anticipation calls happen way too often.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 07:02:54 pm by ShadowHawg »
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sevenof400

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #79 on: March 01, 2017, 06:18:25 pm »

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Scott7703

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #80 on: March 01, 2017, 06:25:28 pm »

Stick to this man defense and we will lose by 30 minimum.
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jfred59

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #81 on: March 01, 2017, 06:52:06 pm »

All I want to say that if you want to see a guy that had an agenda, in the Ole Miss game the baldheaded guy an agenda in the second half.  He was wanting to keep Ole Miss in it
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XavierZane

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #82 on: March 01, 2017, 08:14:19 pm »

Lot of fodder for this thread from tonight's game.  Three crucial, completely botched charge calls that directly handed Florida points or took points from us.  And when they finally do call a charge, it's to take a possession away from us as the game winds down.  That's not even getting into the usual lack of calls for pushing off, over-the-back, hacking or grabbing driving players, etc.  #11 was lowering his shoulder and pushing off all night, and I remember one drive where one Florida player looped his arm around our player's trailing arm, tugging him back, then another Florida player hacked his shooting arm.  Neither called. 
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Hoggish1

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #83 on: March 01, 2017, 08:17:40 pm »

The answer has to be corrupt.  You can't be that incompetent.
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ErieHog

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #84 on: March 01, 2017, 08:19:58 pm »

The answer is 'human'.

They'll have bad games, they'll have good games, and most of the games will be in between.

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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #85 on: March 01, 2017, 08:24:33 pm »

Lot of fodder for this thread from tonight's game.  Three crucial, completely botched charge calls that directly handed Florida points or took points from us.  And when they finally do call a charge, it's to take a possession away from us as the game winds down.  That's not even getting into the usual lack of calls for pushing off, over-the-back, hacking or grabbing driving players, etc.  #11 was lowering his shoulder and pushing off all night, and I remember one drive where one Florida player looped his arm around our player's trailing arm, tugging him back, then another Florida player hacked his shooting arm.  Neither called. 

Barford may be the best in the league at using his shoulder to create space, so do you really want them to start calling that?
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ErieHog

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #86 on: March 01, 2017, 08:28:15 pm »

Watch the clip here;  this is what real bad officiating looks like--  not what we saw tonight, that was merely sub-par.

http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/watch-what-were-the-refs-thinking-at-the-end-of-ball-states-2ot-victory/
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XavierZane

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #87 on: March 01, 2017, 08:33:53 pm »

I'd like for it to be called consistently, one way or the other.  One of the big reasons why Vandy lost to Kentucky last night was offensive push-off fouls at key moments of the game, which Kentucky does every play. Tonight it was charges.  If a rule is only applied randomly or in a way to benefit one team over the other, that shouldn't stand.  If the refs are not consistent arbiters of the rules, what's their point? 
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hogfan10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #88 on: March 01, 2017, 08:38:24 pm »

Officiating is far from perfect.  When I watch the game I can see calls they missed against the team I am cheering for and missed calls that benefitted my team.  If you cannot admit the team you are cheering for had some calls go there way then you shouldn't complain. Because you are looking at only the calls that help your team and not unbiased.

Every new w and then your buddy gets the extra slice of pizza and sometimes you get it, the world is not equal or perfect.  I would hare the game if the reviewed every foul call!!!

Agree refs are human and make mistakes. My problem with refs is when it doesn't seem as if the game is called the same on both ends of the floor, and when it appears that one team seems to always benefit on the 50/50 calls. Example, tonight it's an offensive foul on MK, but 7 minutes later he is called for a blocking foul when it was clearly a charge or no call. An example of a 50/50 tonight was a loose ball that rolled under a Florida player, ruled OB on us. Keep in mind neither official had a good angle to make the call, but neither seemed to hesitate signal Fla ball.
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #89 on: March 01, 2017, 08:42:14 pm »

Agree refs are human and make mistakes. My problem with refs is when it doesn't seem as if the game is called the same on both ends of the floor, and when it appears that one team seems to always benefit on the 50/50 calls. Example, tonight it's an offensive foul on MK, but 7 minutes later he is called for a blocking foul when it was clearly a charge or no call. An example of a 50/50 tonight was a loose ball that rolled under a Florida player, ruled OB on us. Keep in mind neither official had a good angle to make the call, but neither seemed to hesitate signal Fla ball.

Goes back to having different refs at different spots. A guy on the baseline on one end is up top on the other. Not every ref is going to call it the same as another.

As for the ball rolling between the fla players legs, it is very possible he didn't touch it.
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hogfan10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #90 on: March 01, 2017, 08:52:08 pm »

Goes back to having different refs at different spots. A guy on the baseline on one end is up top on the other. Not every ref is going to call it the same as another.

As for the ball rolling between the fla players legs, it is very possible he didn't touch it.

I don't disagree with you, but i often see the ref out top call the foul down low; and you're right the ball may not have touched the Fla player, but it's just as likely, if not more likely, that it did. Point is why was it assumed by both officials that it didn't touch him (no get together to discuss what they saw or didn't see).
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #91 on: March 01, 2017, 08:54:49 pm »

I don't disagree with you, but i often see the ref out top call the foul down low; and you're right the ball may not have touched the Fla player, but it's just as likely, if not more likely, that it did. Point is why was it assumed by both officials that it didn't touch him (no get together to discuss what they saw or didn't see).

maybe the both saw it did not touch him, or maybe the ref farther out was just mirroring the call the official looking right at it made.

yea, it does bother me when someone crosses two or 3 lines to make a call.
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hogfan10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #92 on: March 01, 2017, 08:57:42 pm »

Another call or ref decision in tonight's game, was the decision to stop play when KA was on the floor hurt. We are going to the other end of the floor with a 5 on 4 advantage, and the refs decide to stop play. Play should resume until there is a dead ball or Fla regains possession. At the time I was in my car, so if I misunderstood what happened, sorry.
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PORKULATOR

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #93 on: March 01, 2017, 08:59:23 pm »

Calls what he sees is what a vast majority of them do, it is just most fans do not see the same things. And of course me talking about where I ref is crazy trying to compare that to a p5 college ref. I've called more lousy 9th grade games in hole in the roads than I can count. I can not imagine trying to call a college game with the speed & size of those guys.
Yeah, you'd really screw that up. Just looking at your posts I don't trust you with a whistle.
Now, a hello Kitty bicycle bell... I can totally see you owning that. Ching ching
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XavierZane

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #94 on: March 01, 2017, 09:00:15 pm »

There were some botched calls in the first half, too, but none of the specifics stick out to me like the second half incompetence did.  I remember some anger at the end of the first about how without the refs we'd be close, or even ahead.  Then Florida pushed it back to thirteen after the momentum was stolen by bad calls (kind of a pattern, huh?).  Anybody have a better recollection, or access to a replay?
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hogfan10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #95 on: March 01, 2017, 09:02:27 pm »

maybe the both saw it did not touch him, or maybe the ref farther out was just mirroring the call the official looking right at it made.

yea, it does bother me when someone crosses two or 3 lines to make a call.

Maybe; but I'll contend if they both saw it the same, then they each had some bias coming into the game. There is no way either of them saw it correctly, no matter which way they called it. It was a pure guess, and oddly they both guessed the same; not in our favor.
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #96 on: March 01, 2017, 09:07:11 pm »

Yeah, you'd really screw that up. Just looking at your posts I don't trust you with a whistle.
Now, a hello Kitty bicycle bell... I can totally see you owning that. Ching ching

I prefer a clown car horn, thank you very much.
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hogfan10

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #97 on: March 01, 2017, 09:08:03 pm »

There were some botched calls in the first half, too, but none of the specifics stick out to me like the second half incompetence did.  I remember some anger at the end of the first about how without the refs we'd be close, or even ahead.  Then Florida pushed it back to thirteen after the momentum was stolen by bad calls (kind of a pattern, huh?).  Anybody have a better recollection, or access to a replay?

Didn't see the beginning of the game, was watching the Hog/LaTech game; but I thought the first half officiating was fairly good (low # of fouls, let the game get in a rhythm). Tonight's game even finished in under 2 hrs, I just felt as if the key, crucial/odd/unnecessary calls went against us in the 2nd half.  I've thought that the last several games have been officiated fairly well.
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hogginbama

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #98 on: March 01, 2017, 10:16:17 pm »

Goes back to having different refs at different spots. A guy on the baseline on one end is up top on the other. Not every ref is going to call it the same as another.

As for the ball rolling between the fla players legs, it is very possible he didn't touch it.

And therein lies the problem. I don't think the rule book is written to leave discretion to the ref calling the game. They call it the same way or they don't call it at all. Saying one is on top at this end and at the baseline on the other and they call it differently is a cop-out. Just like the Barford leading with the shoulder issue you pointed out earlier.....if it is a foul call it. Don't let him get by with it tonight and tomorrow night and then start calling it on him next week when it benefits some other team. The book says what a foul is and what a foul is not, it doesn't say "this is a charging foul if Hogginbama is the ref on the baseline making the call but it is a blocking foul if Hogsanity is on the baseline making the call". That is what most of the fans on here have an issue with.
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hogsanity

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Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #99 on: March 02, 2017, 08:39:36 am »

And therein lies the problem. I don't think the rule book is written to leave discretion to the ref calling the game. They call it the same way or they don't call it at all. Saying one is on top at this end and at the baseline on the other and they call it differently is a cop-out. Just like the Barford leading with the shoulder issue you pointed out earlier.....if it is a foul call it. Don't let him get by with it tonight and tomorrow night and then start calling it on him next week when it benefits some other team. The book says what a foul is and what a foul is not, it doesn't say "this is a charging foul if Hogginbama is the ref on the baseline making the call but it is a blocking foul if Hogsanity is on the baseline making the call". That is what most of the fans on here have an issue with.

First, no one wants the game called by the book, the game would be a whistle every 2 seconds for carrying, travelling, illegal screens, pushing off, pretty much everything.

As for the other, when you have humans interpreting/enforcing rules, you get inconsistency. Been that way from the start in all sports. The issue I have is when someone does something on purpose. I worked with a guy this year who in our pregame meeting told me he loves to call walks. So I am immediately concerned, and rightfully so. He was calling walks if the pivot foot even appeared to slide an inch. This was 8th grade girls. He probably called 30 walks, yet was letting them hand fight like a ucf match.
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