Hogville Info
• 9,234,444 Posts
• 381,290 Topics
• 21,261 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:Football      Basketball      Baseball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON 103.3 
  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?  (Read 3800 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

XavierZane

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 683
College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« on: February 28, 2017, 11:02:49 pm »

This is a thread I've been considering for awhile.  Every basketball game I watch, not exclusively but mostly in the SEC, I am flabbergasted at the terrible officiating on display.  It is heinous both in the application of the rules and in consistently holding teams to the same standards.  So with that in mind, this thread is to discuss the title question:  is the terrible officiating we see a sign of incompetent officials who are allowed to bungle along without oversight, or is there a genuine directive from SEC, NCAA, ESPN, or whoever to bias the game towards the ranked team, the team that's in next week's Blockbuster, the team that is part of a historic program, etc. 

We can discuss this question broadly, but I would also like this to act as an ongoing repository of specific examples from individual games.  Primarily Hog games, of course, but not only them.  The bias on display in the KY game I just watched is what pushed me to finally make this thread, after all.  Since refs cannot be held accountable for their bad calls and constant mistakes, I'd like this thread to be a place where fans can hold them accountable.  Even if it is only among ourselves.  Over time, it could become an archive of terrible calls, unfair rulings, phantom turnovers, and epic screwjobs that can be returned to whenever someone needs an example of what those miserable, stinking refs pulled.

To begin the discussion and answer my own question, I think it's corruption (or at least close to corruption).  Especially nowadays.  In the past teams had to deal with home court bias, but now tv schedules and pre-planned production narratives rule the day, blockbuster games have to be generated and protected, and media-darling players are given free reign.  Too much money and media coverage has made the games too important to certain (literally) invested persons and organizations.
Logged

NuttinItUp

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,183
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2017, 11:06:16 pm »

Feel better?
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...

WBOBO

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,762
  • Lefty- RIP #1 Hog Fan
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 11:10:32 pm »

Feel better?
I know I do.  OP is right.  Another typical Ky hose job on their home court.
It was pathetic.  Feel sorry for Vandy right now.
Logged

ShadowHawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,525
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 11:26:14 pm »

I feel you but I would add that it isn't limited to college basketball.

Refs are just people like the rest of us. They are biased and these carry over into their games, albeit I don't believe on purpose for nearly all of them.

Hogsanity is a ref. I believe he probably does his very best to be fair. I mean that.

But I have read on here where he refers to the Hogs style of play as rat ball. So if I employed a similar style I wouldn't be thrilled to see him calling my game.

I used to coach and I saw all sorts of refs. Some who were in love with tall kids, some who didn't like aggressive defense, and sadly some who didn't like kids of color while others favored these same kids.

The worst though, was a particular guy that would mess with the end of games. He would always tighten the games up regardless of how far ahead you were heading into the 4th quarter.

At the end of the day though, you just have to accept that bad calls are part of the game and move on.

Logged

XavierZane

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 683
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2017, 12:19:59 am »

Feel better?

I'd feel great if I could personally dismiss an official or two
Logged

onebadrubi

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13,183
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2017, 12:34:32 am »

Officials are possibly the only career where you are not held accountable. 
Logged

NuttinItUp

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,183
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2017, 01:02:02 am »

Officials are possibly the only career where you are not held accountable. 

Actually they are held very accountable. Leagues determine who they recommend for more prestigious assignments like the NCAA tournament based on performance.

Schools can blacklist refs that they do not want to use based on past performance. If you are a poor enough ref, you will find it very hard to find new employers after awhile.

For pro refs (NBA/NFL), there have been several instances of fines for mistakes made, and they can be fired as well.
Logged

Hollywood_HOGan45

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,797
  • Hollywood could coach better than nutt.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2017, 05:21:47 am »

I feel you but I would add that it isn't limited to college basketball.

Refs are just people like the rest of us. They are biased and these carry over into their games, albeit I don't believe on purpose for nearly all of them.

Hogsanity is a ref. I believe he probably does his very best to be fair. I mean that.

But I have read on here where he refers to the Hogs style of play as rat ball. So if I employed a similar style I wouldn't be thrilled to see him calling my game.

I used to coach and I saw all sorts of refs. Some who were in love with tall kids, some who didn't like aggressive defense, and sadly some who didn't like kids of color while others favored these same kids.

The worst though, was a particular guy that would mess with the end of games. He would always tighten the games up regardless of how far ahead you were heading into the 4th quarter.

At the end of the day though, you just have to accept that bad calls are part of the game and move on.

With the type of dislike hogsanity has for mike Anderson, I'd take the team to the locker room if he were to officiate one of our games.
Logged

bigpigpimpin

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,755
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2017, 05:44:34 am »

I don't see how leaving monk wide open repeatedly during the las 5 minutes of the game is the refs fault.
Logged

onebadrubi

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13,183
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2017, 05:46:50 am »

Actually they are held very accountable. Leagues determine who they recommend for more prestigious assignments like the NCAA tournament based on performance.

Schools can blacklist refs that they do not want to use based on past performance. If you are a poor enough ref, you will find it very hard to find new employers after awhile.

For pro refs (NBA/NFL), there have been several instances of fines for mistakes made, and they can be fired as well.

Yeah, sec basketball refs are q good example of awful officiating and not getting to work for a prestigious conference.  Refs are protected by many leagues, NFL and college.  NBA has had its scandals and many others think it's still some
What rigged. 
Logged

MountieDawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,482
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2017, 06:21:56 am »

Officiating is far from perfect.  When I watch the game I can see calls they missed against the team I am cheering for and missed calls that benefitted my team.  If you cannot admit the team you are cheering for had some calls go there way then you shouldn't complain. Because you are looking at only the calls that help your team and not unbiased.

Every new w and then your buddy gets the extra slice of pizza and sometimes you get it, the world is not equal or perfect.  I would hare the game if the reviewed every foul call!!!
Logged

gmarv

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,481
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2017, 08:02:43 am »

Officiating is far from perfect.  When I watch the game I can see calls they missed against the team I am cheering for and missed calls that benefitted my team.  If you cannot admit the team you are cheering for had some calls go there way then you shouldn't complain. Because you are looking at only the calls that help your team and not unbiased.

Every new w and then your buddy gets the extra slice of pizza and sometimes you get it, the world is not equal or perfect.  I would hare the game if the reviewed every foul call!!!
Take this to Kentucky thread i,m sure you will find a lot of people agreeing with you this morning.Odds are probable not so much any where else in the sec.
Logged

King Kong

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,957
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2017, 08:08:23 am »

Incompetent
Logged

MountieDawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,482
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2017, 08:23:31 am »

Take this to Kentucky thread i,m sure you will find a lot of people agreeing with you this morning.Odds are probable not so much any where else in the sec.

Its not about Kentucky or Arkansas... If you never see calls that work in your teams favor then you are the one being biased not the ref...  I have never blamed a loss on the refs...  They make a bad call or two but usually they dont cost you the game... Last nite Kentucky scored 6 points in the first 12 minutes of the game... If they got 20 bad calls they would not have costs them the game... Sucking for 12 minutes would have... But go ahead and gripe about the refs fixing every game, Rose colored glasses look good on you!
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41,753
  • Is there a problem here?
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 08:36:50 am »

Basketball officiating is very different from the other major sports in one main way - officals rotation. Think about it, in football, if I am the line judge, I am in that spot for every snap, by either team. In baseball, if I am the plate ump, I am there for every pitch, by both teams. In basketball, however, if I am on the end line for a possession, then I am on top on the other end, then a foul or out of bounds happens, and I move to the middle on the sideline. So now we have 3 people, all with different ways of calling, moving all over the court. that leads to inconsistency. I may call body contact a foul on a blocked shot, while one of my partners may not call anything on a shot block as long as their is no arm contact.

As for my comments about " rat ball " if my partner and I show up to do a game, and we know one team is known for doing a lot of slapping and grabbing, yea we might call a couple of early touch fouls just to keep that from getting out of hand. But you have to remember, I am doing 9th grade, or lower classification varsity of jv games, not SEC games.  If you let a 9th grade girls game get out of hand, it can degenerate quickly.

I am not going to claim that no refs are corrupt. The odds are pretty good a couple would be. I take offense to the incompetent, especially at the high collegiate level, because I know what these guys go through to get there. Just because some dude watching on tv thinks a ref is bad does not make it so. Usually, the only time people talk about the refs is when the team they want to win does not. Last night, when down by 19 KY fans were whining, then when Vandy decided to forget Monk was on the floor, suddenly Vandy puking up a 19 pt lead is the refs fault.
Logged

gmarv

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,481
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 08:39:14 am »

Its not about Kentucky or Arkansas... If you never see calls that work in your teams favor then you are the one being biased not the ref...  I have never blamed a loss on the refs...  They make a bad call or two but usually they dont cost you the game... Last nite Kentucky scored 6 points in the first 12 minutes of the game... If they got 20 bad calls they would not have costs them the game... Sucking for 12 minutes would have... But go ahead and gripe about the refs fixing every game, Rose colored glasses look good on you!

not every game just the Kentucky games.
Logged

gmarv

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,481
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2017, 08:41:35 am »

Basketball officiating is very different from the other major sports in one main way - officals rotation. Think about it, in football, if I am the line judge, I am in that spot for every snap, by either team. In baseball, if I am the plate ump, I am there for every pitch, by both teams. In basketball, however, if I am on the end line for a possession, then I am on top on the other end, then a foul or out of bounds happens, and I move to the middle on the sideline. So now we have 3 people, all with different ways of calling, moving all over the court. that leads to inconsistency. I may call body contact a foul on a blocked shot, while one of my partners may not call anything on a shot block as long as their is no arm contact.

As for my comments about " rat ball " if my partner and I show up to do a game, and we know one team is known for doing a lot of slapping and grabbing, yea we might call a couple of early touch fouls just to keep that from getting out of hand. But you have to remember, I am doing 9th grade, or lower classification varsity of jv games, not SEC games.  If you let a 9th grade girls game get out of hand, it can degenerate quickly.

I am not going to claim that no refs are corrupt. The odds are pretty good a couple would be. I take offense to the incompetent, especially at the high collegiate level, because I know what these guys go through to get there. Just because some dude watching on tv thinks a ref is bad does not make it so. Usually, the only time people talk about the refs is when the team they want to win does not. Last night, when down by 19 KY fans were whining, then when Vandy decided to forget Monk was on the floor, suddenly Vandy puking up a 19 pt lead is the refs fault.
Yeah i,m sure you are right about refs,the better they are the less you notice them.
Logged

Dwight_K_Shrute

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 13,763
  • Follow @fakewallyhall.
    • Missing your favorite thread?  It's probably in Vents and Rumors
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2017, 08:44:23 am »

I didn't watch the KY game last night but I do think that SEC officiating has improved a bit in the back half of the season.  During the first half of the season it seemed like they were in a competition to see which crew could call the most fouls.  You would have ungodly foul totals at half time.  I don't hear or see people talking about it as much right now.
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41,753
  • Is there a problem here?
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2017, 08:51:53 am »

I didn't watch the KY game last night but I do think that SEC officiating has improved a bit in the back half of the season.  During the first half of the season it seemed like they were in a competition to see which crew could call the most fouls.  You would have ungodly foul totals at half time.  I don't hear or see people talking about it as much right now.

What was weird about that the same crew could be seen calling other games in other leagues, and there would be about half as many fouls. I contend the fouls in the SEC were/are caused by all the lousy defense played by teams trying to do things they really are not capable of.

Just look at how fouls called on the Hogs went down when they went to the zone. I mean the had 4 fouls total in the 2nd half against A&M. When was the last time the Hogs only had 4 fouls in a entire half of basketball?

I called a game this year where it was 2 AA teams trying to press and run and gun, yet neither had the team quickness to do that. The foul count was atrocious because if a kid got beat he just grabbed the ball handler, stuff so obvious it had to be called. 7 player fouled out, and I think there were over 60 fouls total. The next time I had varisty it was a AAAA game, one teams played primarily zone, and the other a very good man to man. No hacking and grabbing. Neither team got to the bonus in the 1st half, and only one did in the 2nd half. A really well played game.
Logged

The_Iceman

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27,986
  • The Plaque for Alternates is in the Ladies room.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 08:55:49 am »

What was weird about that the same crew could be seen calling other games in other leagues, and there would be about half as many fouls. I contend the fouls in the SEC were/are caused by all the lousy defense played by teams trying to do things they really are not capable of.

Just look at how fouls called on the Hogs went down when they went to the zone. I mean the had 4 fouls total in the 2nd half against A&M. When was the last time the Hogs only had 4 fouls in a entire half of basketball?

I called a game this year where it was 2 AA teams trying to press and run and gun, yet neither had the team quickness to do that. The foul count was atrocious because if a kid got beat he just grabbed the ball handler, stuff so obvious it had to be called. 7 player fouled out, and I think there were over 60 fouls total. The next time I had varisty it was a AAAA game, one teams played primarily zone, and the other a very good man to man. No hacking and grabbing. Neither team got to the bonus in the 1st half, and only one did in the 2nd half. A really well played game.

I think our 2-2-1 press that falls back into the matchup zone is our most effective defense. It forces the opponent to work to bring the ball up, it provides a trapping opportunity if they dribble to the dead spot (half court and baseline), and prevents needless fouls 90 feet from the basket.
Logged

PORKULATOR

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,252
  • knows how to 'dunk the crumpets'
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 09:15:41 am »

Both.
However, the OP referred to last night's game like it was one sided. I saw a tale of 2 halves. Vandy got away with some stuff in the first... 2nd went Uckys way. The Elbow to the face by Cornet that got Cal t'd up would've got me arrested. I'd have shown the ref how it happened... And then showed him again, and again, and....
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,681
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2017, 09:20:00 am »

Both.
However, the OP referred to last night's game like it was one sided. I saw a tale of 2 halves. Vandy got away with some stuff in the first... 2nd went Uckys way. The Elbow to the face by Cornet that got Cal t'd up would've got me arrested. I'd have shown the ref how it happened... And then showed him again, and again, and....
What he said...I didn't see the first half though and I fell asleep during the second. I did however see the elbow and it was an obvious missed call. I woke up and Kentucky had won by 6. I was like how?!

You have to admit that Kentucky does get the majority of the close calls though rather they are at home or on the road.
Logged

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,540
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2017, 09:24:13 am »

Its not about Kentucky or Arkansas... If you never see calls that work in your teams favor then you are the one being biased not the ref...  I have never blamed a loss on the refs...  They make a bad call or two but usually they dont cost you the game... Last nite Kentucky scored 6 points in the first 12 minutes of the game... If they got 20 bad calls they would not have costs them the game... Sucking for 12 minutes would have... But go ahead and gripe about the refs fixing every game, Rose colored glasses look good on you!
Remember THE Florida game where we got screwed by the refs? Was that just fans being biased? and if you don't know the game im talking about, you cant possibly be a real hog fan
Logged

Timfromlittlerockhog

  • Guest
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2017, 09:33:14 am »

Remember THE Florida game where we got screwed by the refs? Was that just fans being biased? and if you don't know the game im talking about, you cant possibly be a real hog fan

I do. And the ref's are corrupt and paid off. I don't care who is offended by it. I can't be the only one who has noticed that the ref's are suddenly allowing us to play ? That guy we brought in from the big east or ACC or wherever who is supposed to be fixing our league is already paying dividends. Arkansas' style of ball is physical but its no more physical on the perimeter than its been on the inside for years. Difference now is they are calling the game much better. It still has a long way to go but its getting better. If the ref's had been officiating this year the same way that they have in the past we'd be lucky to be a bubble team at this point.

Lucky for us the SEC is finally starting to figure out that all this buying off of the ref's by the home team has to be stopped. Of course that applies to everyone except KY. Arkansas doesn't slap and grab and people like some posters on here claim. They slap at the ball and that is NOT against the rules. Take away all of the anticipation foul type calls and more of these type plays are now turnovers in our favor.

Yes officiating is corrupt. But kudos to the SEC for finally figuring out that Arkansas needs to be allowed to play basketball because in the tourney things will be called the same way. Physical inside and out.
Logged

riccoar

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14,607
  • Serving Hogville since 11-08-03
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2017, 09:47:13 am »

Another thing that can kill teams is if a team of refs' are not synced.  The guy calling down low on one end has to be on the same page as the guy on the opposite end.  You get one calling tight and the other calling nothing that doesn't draw blood, and you have chaos.  Happens A LOT at the lowest class of HS basketball.
Logged

navyhog24

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,448
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2017, 09:50:27 am »

I didn't watch the KY game last night but I do think that SEC officiating has improved a bit in the back half of the season.  During the first half of the season it seemed like they were in a competition to see which crew could call the most fouls.  You would have ungodly foul totals at half time.  I don't hear or see people talking about it as much right now.

You must not have watched the Auburn game and not have been in the Game Thread for it as well. The officiating for the Auburn game was so horrid.
Logged

revolution

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,879
  • Change is inevitable; growth is optional.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2017, 10:14:16 am »

I've coached summer youth basketball and high level classic soccer.  I'm just a dad with training and coaching licenses, not a pro.  I also have officiated youth and teenage games in both sports through the years, although not as much time spent doing that. 

My own experience and perspective is that many, many officials have agendas.  It may be favoring the home team, preferring a style of play, getting caught up with the fans, wanting to prove themselves to be the authority over a demonstrative coach, wanting to please everyone, show themselves in charge, favor the players they know or are more familiar with, prop up the favored team, start favoring the team that is behind if they need help, etc.  I've seen officials whose #1 agenda is to make sure that everyone knows that they are in charge, even when it wasn't necessary and impacted the game negatively. 

I kind of think it's ridiculous that the home team generally gets called for less fouls in basketball, or at least less fouls resulting in free throws.  So many times the make up calls once the game it out of hand and decided may make the box score look more equitable, but we can all see what the reality is.  This is an accepted part of the home court advantage, but it requires all involved to believe that teams foul so much less at home than they do on the road.  And why would that be the case?

I have seen a few officials personally who were excellent.  They would make calls, and sometimes they wouldn't go your way, but you knew because of experience they were not trying to hurt either team.  They were just doing their job with professionalism, integrity and courtesy.  I always was glad to see those officials. 

On the other hand, I have seen officials get their dander up when asked a simple question and from that point on completely favor the opposing team, taking over the game and denying one team a level playing field.  I've seen officials make inaccurate calls that impact games in a huge way, and refuse to back down even when other officials on the field or court give them a differing perspective.  In those cases, it just becomes a struggle on who wants to ultimately be the king.

The officiating system is rife with confirmation bias.  Officials don't want to be questioned when they call a game, and they extend that courtesy to others in their field.  So they will not admit errors or bias, and they are highly unlikely to call out others.  The powers that be have a vested financial and relational interest in us all believing the illusion and fallacy that officiating is generally fair and unbiased.

I watch plenty of games where I don't have a rooting interest, and it is amazing how many times the home or favored team gets just the call that is needed at the right time.  It happens with such amazing frequency, you know we all expect it.  Why is that the case?

I think really good officiating is rare.  But that's just me.  Maybe I don't have a clue.  I no longer coach or officiate, and although I actually enjoyed that time, I am so glad to be done with officiating shenanigans.
Logged

East TN HAWG

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,824
  • Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2017, 10:26:05 am »

Officiating a pee wee game is hard.  I can't imagine what it would be like to officiate a high level.   

Logged

revolution

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,879
  • Change is inevitable; growth is optional.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2017, 10:37:06 am »

If you think agenda-driven or biased officiating doesn't hugely impact even the most important games, go back and watch or read the immediate reports of Duke's 2015 NCAA tournament championship win over Wisconsin. 

Bo Ryan, one of college basketball's most experienced and respected coaches at the time, felt the impact of the Duke Advantage cost his team a title that his players had performed well enough to win.  Somehow, Duke got more physical in the second half, playing with reckless physical abandon, and that led to the officials calling more fouls on Wisconsin players, sending Duke to the free throw line time and again to help them come back.  When Wisconsin had the ball, whistle happy refs from the other end of the court were strangely silent when Wisconsin guards drove the ball or Duke players rebounded over and through Wisconsin bigs who were properly positioned for rebounds.

So the more physical, aggressive, handsy, knock you down team, that happened to be the historically better and that year's favored team, was able to create a situation in which they could rally in game by fouling and somehow doing it so well that the other team was actually called for the fouls.

And all the mentions / reporting of this little gem ended almost immediately after the game.  Where was the in-depth analysis of the officiating of a championship game where one of the coaches claimed after the game that his team had been denied a normal opportunity to win a game when they were outplaying their opponent?

ESPN, all the networks, Vegas, the NCAA itself (and really all the powers in all sports) - none of them want anyone to seriously consider that there is rampant bias (and maybe some corruption) in how games are officiated. 

"Move along, nothing to see here, we're making so much money!  And we don't want to spend real money professionalizing this aspect of the game." 

Cause as it stands, all the fans will come around, and lay their money down.
Logged

azhog10

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,636
  • Razorback Basketball on the rise!
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2017, 10:40:16 am »


As for my comments about " rat ball " if my partner and I show up to do a game, and we know one team is known for doing a lot of slapping and grabbing, yea we might call a couple of early touch fouls just to keep that from getting out of hand.
There in lies the problem and point he was making. You go into a game with a bias, and are paying more attention to one team and admitting you will call a couple touch fouls early.....touch fouls that happen on every possession both ways. So you are going to have one or two of their starters, their better players, start with one or two fouls before the game even starts.

Basketball isn't easy to officiate but the "rotation" bit is a cop out. There are only five guys on the floor vs. 22 on the field. The court is much smaller and tighter. The game is fast, and it's not easy to officiate at times. But the rules have always been written about gaining an unfair advantage. I see too many calls, called both ways (yes sometimes it works out in our favor) that stop the game, and nothing happened that created an advantage for one team over the other. Even when calls are made in our favor, most of the times, its not in our favor because the game is being stopped and any and all flow to the game is stopped.

It's easier said than done, but each official should go into the game with no "bias" no matter the "style" involved. When an advantage is gained, call the foul. Touch fouls or fouls away from the ball that has little to no impact on the play should not be called. The only reason i would call something off the ball is if you see things starting to get out of hand or if you have warned someone multiple times to cut it out. Officiating needs to be more tightly regulated in a sense that conferences should have their own crews and hold them accountable for poor performance. In college, you really can't do that when officials are doing an SEC game one night and then in East Lansing the next night for a Big 10 game.
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41,753
  • Is there a problem here?
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2017, 10:41:08 am »

Another thing that can kill teams is if a team of refs' are not synced.  The guy calling down low on one end has to be on the same page as the guy on the opposite end.  You get one calling tight and the other calling nothing that doesn't draw blood, and you have chaos.  Happens A LOT at the lowest class of HS basketball.

I would agree with that 100%. In jrhs and HS, at least in AR basketball, you rarely work with the same partner or partners if it is a 3 man job, from game to game.
Logged

East Clintwood

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,850
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2017, 10:43:53 am »

Officials are possibly the only career where you are not held accountable. 



No - that would be weathermen.
Logged

azhog10

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,636
  • Razorback Basketball on the rise!
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2017, 10:48:53 am »

What he said...I didn't see the first half though and I fell asleep during the second. I did however see the elbow and it was an obvious missed call. I woke up and Kentucky had won by 6. I was like how?!

You have to admit that Kentucky does get the majority of the close calls though rather they are at home or on the road.
The refs made up for that call.....three times in the next possession. Technically four if you count the missed push in the back on the offensive rebound KY got. Right after that "T" Vandy got called for 6 straight fouls before Kentucky's next foul and Kentucky was pressing full court and trapping. So it wasn't like KY got less aggressive.
Logged

Timfromlittlerockhog

  • Guest
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2017, 10:49:31 am »



No - that would be weathermen.

You mean weatherperson... Be PC East.
Logged

Timfromlittlerockhog

  • Guest
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2017, 10:50:52 am »

If being an official was as prestigious as being a head coach maybe we could field some competent ones. As it is they are pretty much a joke.
Logged

East TN HAWG

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,824
  • Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2017, 10:51:27 am »



No - that would be weathermen.

People settle their differences with referees in the back parking lot. 
Logged

The_Iceman

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27,986
  • The Plaque for Alternates is in the Ladies room.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2017, 10:51:39 am »

If you think agenda-driven or biased officiating doesn't hugely impact even the most important games, go back and watch or read the immediate reports of Duke's 2015 NCAA tournament championship win over Wisconsin. 

Bo Ryan, one of college basketball's most experienced and respected coaches at the time, felt the impact of the Duke Advantage cost his team a title that his players had performed well enough to win.  Somehow, Duke got more physical in the second half, playing with reckless physical abandon, and that led to the officials calling more fouls on Wisconsin players, sending Duke to the free throw line time and again to help them come back.  When Wisconsin had the ball, whistle happy refs from the other end of the court were strangely silent when Wisconsin guards drove the ball or Duke players rebounded over and through Wisconsin bigs who were properly positioned for rebounds.

So the more physical, aggressive, handsy, knock you down team, that happened to be the historically better and that year's favored team, was able to create a situation in which they could rally in game by fouling and somehow doing it so well that the other team was actually called for the fouls.

And all the mentions / reporting of this little gem ended almost immediately after the game.  Where was the in-depth analysis of the officiating of a championship game where one of the coaches claimed after the game that his team had been denied a normal opportunity to win a game when they were outplaying their opponent?

ESPN, all the networks, Vegas, the NCAA itself (and really all the powers in all sports) - none of them want anyone to seriously consider that there is rampant bias (and maybe some corruption) in how games are officiated. 

"Move along, nothing to see here, we're making so much money!  And we don't want to spend real money professionalizing this aspect of the game." 

Cause as it stands, all the fans will come around, and lay their money down.


Regarding the Duke Wisconsin game:

Foul count
Duke - 13
WISC - 15

Free Throws
Duke - 20
WISC-  10

3pt Attempts
Duke - 11
WISC - 21

Looks to me as if Wisconsin settled for a lot of threes, while guys like Tyrus Jones, Grayson Allen, and Justice Winslow were attacking the rim.
Logged

azhog10

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,636
  • Razorback Basketball on the rise!
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2017, 10:54:27 am »

Regarding the Duke Wisconsin game:

Foul count
Duke - 13
WISC - 15

Free Throws
Duke - 20
WISC-  10

3pt Attempts
Duke - 11
WISC - 21

Looks to me as if Wisconsin settled for a lot of threes, while guys like Tyrus Jones, Grayson Allen, and Justice Winslow were attacking the rim.
Would be a more accurate comparison if you compared the two halves.
Logged

Timfromlittlerockhog

  • Guest
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2017, 10:59:05 am »

Ahhh the infamous attacking the rim bailout... Hey coach have your guys drive to the basket. We can call anticipation fouls all night long....... Just because somebody is driving to the basket doesn't mean they are always fouled. Sure you are more likely to be fouled while driving the ball to the basket than when settling for a jump shot. But most of the time those calls are anticipating more than they are actual fouls. USC's coach favorite go to at the end of the game is put your head down drive to the basket toss something up and hope for a call. Its sickening.

Oh and saying that MA was a nostalgia hire is the same thing as saying he hadn't earned the job. Funny but Bama and Georgia certainly thought so. If anyone was nostalgic it was Mike for wanting to come back to a place that he knew would call him lazy and say that he couldnt coach even in the midst of one of our best records in over two decades.

The SEC has been woefully bad in terms of officiating for years. Now that they are finally starting to improve expect to see more and more W's. Sorry to all the MA haters but he's here to stay.  :razorback:
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41,753
  • Is there a problem here?
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2017, 11:05:35 am »

There in lies the problem and point he was making. You go into a game with a bias, and are paying more attention to one team and admitting you will call a couple touch fouls early.....touch fouls that happen on every possession both ways. So you are going to have one or two of their starters, their better players, start with one or two fouls before the game even starts.

Basketball isn't easy to officiate but the "rotation" bit is a cop out. There are only five guys on the floor vs. 22 on the field. The court is much smaller and tighter. The game is fast, and it's not easy to officiate at times. But the rules have always been written about gaining an unfair advantage. I see too many calls, called both ways (yes sometimes it works out in our favor) that stop the game, and nothing happened that created an advantage for one team over the other. Even when calls are made in our favor, most of the times, its not in our favor because the game is being stopped and any and all flow to the game is stopped.

It's easier said than done, but each official should go into the game with no "bias" no matter the "style" involved. When an advantage is gained, call the foul. Touch fouls or fouls away from the ball that has little to no impact on the play should not be called. The only reason i would call something off the ball is if you see things starting to get out of hand or if you have warned someone multiple times to cut it out. Officiating needs to be more tightly regulated in a sense that conferences should have their own crews and hold them accountable for poor performance. In college, you really can't do that when officials are doing an SEC game one night and then in East Lansing the next night for a Big 10 game.

I can not comment on how college officials get assignments. I only know 2 guys that call p5 games, one did 7 sec games this year, and the other calls a ton of big12, but I have not talked to them about the ins and outs of how they get games because i do not aspire to call at that level.

In jrhs and hs I can only speak to my association. They try to pair up an experienced guy with a new guy early on just to see who can handle what level. Then as they year goes on you kind of get slotted to certain level of play.
Logged

Timfromlittlerockhog

  • Guest
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2017, 11:09:54 am »

For the record I've always hated officials. I remember playing in high school there was this one ref who was blind as a bat. I'd steal the ball as cleanly as possible from another teams point and when I started to own the other teams point (meaning too many steals) The ref would start blowing the whistle. I was teed up for telling him that he was blind once on such a call. I believe the profession naturally attracts people from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Logged

revolution

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,879
  • Change is inevitable; growth is optional.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2017, 11:10:48 am »

Regarding the Duke Wisconsin game:

Foul count
Duke - 13
WISC - 15

Free Throws
Duke - 20
WISC-  10

3pt Attempts
Duke - 11
WISC - 21

Looks to me as if Wisconsin settled for a lot of threes, while guys like Tyrus Jones, Grayson Allen, and Justice Winslow were attacking the rim.

Yes, that's what a cursory look at stats will make you think.  There was a little reporting on issues after the game, though:

"There are many things that make a great basketball coach. One of them is recruiting talents like Okafor, and point guard Tyus Jones, and surprise star Grayson Allen. One of them is knowing what to do with that talent once it turns up in your gym. And another is working the refs, and what Krzyzewski did with Joe DeRosa, Michael Stephens, and Pat Driscoll was nothing short of a masterpiece. He chewed their ears in that first half like Mike Tyson at an audiologist convention. Still, though, it was 31-31, and Wisconsin had only as many fouls as Okafor. Things seemed to be going according to Hoyle. But the veteran mentor saw what was coming.

“Watch,” he said to me. “Mike’s got them now.”

Sure enough, come the second half, just as the Badgers took a nine-point lead, the world turned upside down.

.......   By the time the championship ended, at 68-63, Krzyzewski’s fifth title was headed back to Durham and the Blue Devils had attempted 16 free throws in the second half to Wisconsin’s three. This was a whopping statistical anomaly. So, before we get to the rest of the game — and it was a terrific one, all the more so because it was so ragged and scrambled — let us salute DeRosa, Stephens, and Driscoll. Nice work, gents. You defied the math, beat the odds, and managed to do your jobs despite having Krzyzewski dancing across your collective cerebrum. The man is a stone mind-bending genius. That cannot be denied.

.....Truth be told, Ryan got outcoached by Krzyzewski — not by much, but by just enough. In the end, every coach uses what he has to get what he wants, as James Brown once put it in a radically different context. he got outcoached because Mike Krzyzewski is the most powerful man in American basketball. Five national championships. More wins than any other Division I men’s coach. Two Olympic gold medals. NBA stars on speed dial. So, when he talks, even in the seething furnace of a national championship game, all the right people always listen." -------Charles P Pierce, grantland.com

And this about a critical call once Duke had free throw after free throw to take the lead . . .

"NCAA vice president of men's basketball championships Dan Gavitt told ESPN's "Outside the Lines" on Wednesday that officials did actually see all available replay angles of the controversial call late in Monday's title game between Duke and Wisconsin, including the angle TV viewers saw on the broadcast that showed a loose ball last touching Duke's Justise Winslow before going out of bounds.

Gavitt's remarks contradict those of John Adams, the NCAA supervisor of officials, who said on Tuesday that the referees never saw on the replay monitor the angle that "everybody saw at home" of an out-of-bounds play that gave possession to Duke with less than two minutes remaining. The loose ball appeared to last touch Winslow, but after officials Joe DeRosa, Michael Stephens and Pat Driscoll met for about two minutes to discuss the play, they ruled that Wisconsin's Bronson Koenig last touched the ball and awarded possession to the Blue Devils, who were leading 63-58 with 1:53 remaining.
"Unfortunately, John misspoke yesterday," Gavitt told ESPN.com after his OTL appearance. "The officials did indeed have the camera angle that was shown on the CBS broadcast. It was the last angle they did see. They likely did not stay long enough with a review to see that angle magnified. But they made their determination based on the two-minute review and the camera angle that was shown on CBS.

Adams said on Tuesday he saw the better angle after the referees had left the monitor and considered calling them back to look at the play once more, but decided not to.

Gavitt said he has since spoken with Adams, who is leaving his position after coordinating with officials for his last NCAA tournament. "  -----non-attributed story (no author?  hmmm) on si.com

Hmmmmm, never any follow up to why Adams chose not to insure in the moment that a crucial call was being made that his officials actually saw and considered the footage and images that were critical and determinative in that situation.  He saw the video, and he knew it was available, but said it wasn't available and was never seen, and he DECIDED NOT TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT.  THIS IS THE HEAD OF THE OFFICIALS FOR AN NCAA CHAMPIONSHIP GAME!

No, there's nothing ever going on, whether personal, relational or business!
Logged

Karma

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,057
  • Woo Pig Sooie, brotha!
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2017, 11:14:52 am »

You ain't paranoid if they are really out to get you.
Logged

revolution

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,879
  • Change is inevitable; growth is optional.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2017, 11:16:43 am »

You ain't paranoid if they are really out to get you.

Did you really say that or am I just hearing that in my head?
Logged

Kevin

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 20,156
  • Trust in the Lord with all your heart
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2017, 11:29:42 am »

college refs work way too many games
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,681
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2017, 12:04:01 pm »

Remember THE Florida game where we got screwed by the refs? Was that just fans being biased? and if you don't know the game im talking about, you cant possibly be a real hog fan
You mean this one? But remember referees never make a bad call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CP_gye34Ug
Logged

hogsanity

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41,753
  • Is there a problem here?
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2017, 12:09:47 pm »

You mean this one? But remember referees never make a bad call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CP_gye34Ug

more imagined statements. No one ever said refs do not make bad calls.
Logged

NuttinItUp

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13,183
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2017, 12:14:58 pm »

more imagined statements. No one ever said refs do not make bad calls.

Half the people in this thread be like...


Logged

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

  • Hogvillian
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1,540
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2017, 12:15:44 pm »

You mean this one? But remember referees never make a bad call.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CP_gye34Ug
I was actually talking football (bad officiating isn't limited to one sport) but this is a good example too
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,681
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: College Officiating - Incompetent or Corrupt?
« Reply #49 on: March 01, 2017, 12:15:49 pm »

The refs made up for that call.....three times in the next possession. Technically four if you count the missed push in the back on the offensive rebound KY got. Right after that "T" Vandy got called for 6 straight fouls before Kentucky's next foul and Kentucky was pressing full court and trapping. So it wasn't like KY got less aggressive.
Oh, so the Calipari affect took place...
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
 

KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas