Which one is it?

[CurlyTail]

I am excited we made a change and went in a different direction. I just don't see how we can claim great coaching has had a chance to do anything yet. We have the exact same non conference record this year as last and have been largely unimpressive. I hope that the Baylor game was a turning point to more consistent performance. My fear is it was another abberation and we will once again be dissappointed at the end of the year. But what do I know about basketball. I apparently haven't watched one game in the last few years.

I agree with you. You could very well be right; in all honesty I think we'll be a bubble team this year and I won't be at all surprised if we're not in the tournament. All I was saying was from a pure coaching standpoint, watching and evaluating both Stan and Pel, I don't see how anybody could question who the better coach is when they're on the sidelines. Stan could hold his own in recruiting, I'll give him that.

[CurlyTail]

You do realize that the answer B makes no damn sense at all.

Poor talent and a bad coach add up to being a bad team that wins between 5 and 10 games.

I do believe that Arkansas won more then that the last few seasons under Heath.Hell I like bringing facts to the table. but damn some things just aren't worth mentioning when it is plainly obvious.

It says overrated talent, not poor talent. Little bit of a difference there.

[dclay89]

hey curlytail, let's DUET!... haha loving ur pic

[CurlyTail]

LOL thanks, saw that movie over the Christmas break and it was freakin' hilarious. That was one of my favorite scenes, although it was pretty much funny the entire way through.

[WADHOG]

This would be better to analyze in about four to six weeks.  We will definitely know where we stand as far as the post season and also what the verdict may be on Pel, although I already think we found a gem, if not for anything other than the class he already has recruited.  It's pretty tough to come into a place that doesn't have a point guard on campus. 

[HawgG]

It says overrated talent, not poor talent. Little bit of a difference there.

O.K.

I just look at things as either being good or bad.In between means unsure, but I got you.

[Hogginitall]

B.  Although, I would change bad to average/boring.  He's not a bad coach, just not good enough for Arkansas.

[VoR]

D. Different system

Players are still thinking instead of naturally reacting, a 1/10th of a second can make all the difference in the world between missing a pass, tipping a pass, and stealing a pass.

[pitbull1]

I think the team we have at this team is a fair team, but not the team that they should be.  This is a team that Coach Pelphrey got when he came here and could do nothing about it.  Pelphrey's recruiting, even after the short time he had, was very good, and will only get better.  Once Pelphrey gets his own players established, I think you will see a big change in the future of the Razorbacks.

[hogfankb]

Ok I have to jump here I guess. I have been a bit critical of Pelphrey because he hasn't produced (W/Ls) anymore than Heath would have. Heath may not have beaten Baylor and Missou (which is debatable because he could win at home) but he wouldn't have lost to App St and probably not OU. I see the passion and the fire sure and that is great but what has he done to make this team any better? He has them playing hard which is a HUGE upgrade over Heath. He has them in shape which helps to close out games. But I also feel like the extra full court pressure has hurt our shooting on an already bad shooting team.

I feel like our defense has actually gotten worse under Pelphrey. Heaths teams were fantastic scoring and FG% defenses. Pels may cause more turnovers but since we turn it over right back to them I don't see that as helping much.

The one area that I was so frustrated with Heath and have been harping on Pelphrey because was zone offense. Baylor didn't run much zone but the few times they did in first half we FINALLY got players in the right places to attack it and I think we scored every possession. Hopefully that wasn't a fluke. Up to that point I couldn't see anything X's and O's wise that was better than Heath.

For the record I hate Pels substitution patterns also. One reply in here said that Beverley was on fine until Weems/Ervins ego got in the way. It was actually that pel yanked him in the middle of the streak and he never got back on his game. He did the same thing to Weems in the second half.

I just always thought the point in a coaching change was to upgrade the results. With the exact same team as Heath, Pel is doing basically the same thing Heath would have.

[razorzapp]

Ok I have to jump here I guess. I have been a bit critical of Pelphrey because he hasn't produced (W/Ls) anymore than Heath would have. Heath may not have beaten Baylor and Missou (which is debatable because he could win at home) but he wouldn't have lost to App St and probably not OU. I see the passion and the fire sure and that is great but what has he done to make this team any better? He has them playing hard which is a HUGE upgrade over Heath. He has them in shape which helps to close out games. But I also feel like the extra full court pressure has hurt our shooting on an already bad shooting team.

I feel like our defense has actually gotten worse under Pelphrey. Heaths teams were fantastic scoring and FG% defenses. Pels may cause more turnovers but since we turn it over right back to them I don't see that as helping much.

The one area that I was so frustrated with Heath and have been harping on Pelphrey because was zone offense. Baylor didn't run much zone but the few times they did in first half we FINALLY got players in the right places to attack it and I think we scored every possession. Hopefully that wasn't a fluke. Up to that point I couldn't see anything X's and O's wise that was better than Heath.

For the record I hate Pels substitution patterns also. One reply in here said that Beverley was on fine until Weems/Ervins ego got in the way. It was actually that pel yanked him in the middle of the streak and he never got back on his game. He did the same thing to Weems in the second half.

I just always thought the point in a coaching change was to upgrade the results. With the exact same team as Heath, Pel is doing basically the same thing Heath would have.

you can't see anything different with the x's and o's?  heath didn't have x's and o's.  after 3-4 years he finally had to hire someone to teach one of them.

[hogfankb]

you can't see anything different with the x's and o's?  heath didn't have x's and o's.  after 3-4 years he finally had to hire someone to teach one of them.

Give me an example of how Pelphrey does have X's and O's.

[VoR]

Ok I have to jump here I guess. I have been a bit critical of Pelphrey because he hasn't produced (W/Ls) anymore than Heath would have. Heath may not have beaten Baylor and Missou (which is debatable because he could win at home) but he wouldn't have lost to App St and probably not OU. I see the passion and the fire sure and that is great but what has he done to make this team any better? He has them playing hard which is a HUGE upgrade over Heath. He has them in shape which helps to close out games. But I also feel like the extra full court pressure has hurt our shooting on an already bad shooting team.

I feel like our defense has actually gotten worse under Pelphrey. Heaths teams were fantastic scoring and FG% defenses. Pels may cause more turnovers but since we turn it over right back to them I don't see that as helping much.

The one area that I was so frustrated with Heath and have been harping on Pelphrey because was zone offense. Baylor didn't run much zone but the few times they did in first half we FINALLY got players in the right places to attack it and I think we scored every possession. Hopefully that wasn't a fluke. Up to that point I couldn't see anything X's and O's wise that was better than Heath.

For the record I hate Pels substitution patterns also. One reply in here said that Beverley was on fine until Weems/Ervins ego got in the way. It was actually that pel yanked him in the middle of the streak and he never got back on his game. He did the same thing to Weems in the second half.

I just always thought the point in a coaching change was to upgrade the results. With the exact same team as Heath, Pel is doing basically the same thing Heath would have.

You have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. This isn't ESPN where all you have to do is wait a minute or 2 and you see something great happen, this is a work in progress. It takes time. Not every coach can walk into the situation Heath inhearited when he took over at Kent, and not even Heath was that lucky twice in a row.

For the most part all everyone asked of Pel when he took over was for the team to play with more disipline, heart, and emotion then how they played under Heath.

[silverhawg]

Decent Players..Heath didn't have them in shape..Pel is working hard to get em in shape...plus these boys are not used to be yelled at and held accountable...I think once he gets to recruiting we will see a return to national prominence on the court.

[hogfankb]

You have to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. This isn't ESPN where all you have to do is wait a minute or 2 and you see something great happen, this is a work in progress. It takes time. Not every coach can walk into the situation Heath inhearited when he took over at Kent, and not even Heath was that lucky twice in a row.

For the most part all everyone asked of Pel when he took over was for the team to play with more disipline, heart, and emotion then how they played under Heath.

I agree with everything you have said here. I just haven't seen much improvement from this years team from last even with the added effort. That is frustrating to me.

I think nexts years team will be very solid and hopefully will show the improvement I was expecting this year.

[VoR]

I agree with everything you have said here. I just haven't seen much improvement from this years team from last even with the added effort. That is frustrating to me.

I think nexts years team will be very solid and hopefully will show the improvement I was expecting this year.

There still 16+ left, I keep telling myself time will tell. The last 6-8 in conference should tell a lot.

[elksnort]

LOL thanks, saw that movie over the Christmas break and it was freakin' hilarious. That was one of my favorite scenes, although it was pretty much funny the entire way through.

Thank you for comprehending what I wrote.

[razorzapp]

Give me an example of how Pelphrey does have X's and O's.

during each tv time out the team managers get out 6 stools.  5 in a semi-circle around 1 for coach pel.  coach spends the entire timeout with a bball white board showing the team something.  now i have not been in that huddle but i think it's safe to assume he is diagramming how to beat a particular trap, where the players need to be to beat a certain defense, offense adjustments to make to handle particular defenses instead of drawing pictures of airplanes and trucks.  i've even seen him personally ask an official where the ball is going to be inbounded after a timeout, presumably so he could draw up an inbounds play.  these are things i see him do, not an assistant.

i've heard him yell things like 'baseline', 'high-post' to alert players to where they should be looking to defend.  i've seen him talk for an extended time to a player he just took out of the game for screwing up.  again i don't know exactly what he is saying, but i can assume he is explaining how to correct his mistake, not asking him how he feels about the lame 20 year-old signs the students hold up while the opposing team is being introduced.

these are all examples of how i've seen pelphrey use x's and o's.  i can't say i saw much of any of that with the previous coach, you know the one who hired hipsher to install an offense?

[40MINSOFHELL]

2009 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS=ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS WITH COACH PEL

[HogMavFan]

Ok I have to jump here I guess. I have been a bit critical of Pelphrey because he hasn't produced (W/Ls) anymore than Heath would have. Heath may not have beaten Baylor and Missou (which is debatable because he could win at home) but he wouldn't have lost to App St and probably not OU. I see the passion and the fire sure and that is great but what has he done to make this team any better? He has them playing hard which is a HUGE upgrade over Heath. He has them in shape which helps to close out games. But I also feel like the extra full court pressure has hurt our shooting on an already bad shooting team.

I feel like our defense has actually gotten worse under Pelphrey. Heaths teams were fantastic scoring and FG% defenses. Pels may cause more turnovers but since we turn it over right back to them I don't see that as helping much.

The one area that I was so frustrated with Heath and have been harping on Pelphrey because was zone offense. Baylor didn't run much zone but the few times they did in first half we FINALLY got players in the right places to attack it and I think we scored every possession. Hopefully that wasn't a fluke. Up to that point I couldn't see anything X's and O's wise that was better than Heath.

For the record I hate Pels substitution patterns also. One reply in here said that Beverley was on fine until Weems/Ervins ego got in the way. It was actually that pel yanked him in the middle of the streak and he never got back on his game. He did the same thing to Weems in the second half.

I just always thought the point in a coaching change was to upgrade the results. With the exact same team as Heath, Pel is doing basically the same thing Heath would have.

The only thing you said that I agree with is about the substitution pattern which Heath was also notorious for doing. I believe it was Don Nelson that said to never take a player out when he was on a hot streak even if he begs to come out. Rarely do they go back in and shoot as well. Ride 'em when they are hot....and pass them the ball when they are hot which Gary Ervin does not understand(especially when it comes to passing to Beverley). I stand by my previous comments about the intelligence of our seniors. There is only so much that coaching will do for mentally challenged individuals.

[harmonyhog]

I expect this team to choke against a pitiful Auburn squad. They will be over confident. Beverly is in a sophomore slump. Hill is a joke.

[CurlyTail]

Thank you for comprehending what I wrote.

[CurlyTail]

Thank you for comprehending what I wrote.

OK I think I see what happened; I think you probably meant to quote my other post right above that one where I was clarifying the wording of your original post. At least I hope so, if not I'm not comprehending.

[sloppyhog]

Coach Pel is a much better coach than Heath was. Pel brings excitement and the desire to win! I don't know how much Heath expected from his team, but he seemed ok with losing ball games. Pel does not lose ball games. Keep in mind he is making these players play a different type of game than what they are used to and they came to Arkansas to play Heath's style of ball, not Coach Pel's.  We've got a good coach, give him a little bit and we'll be fine.

[hogfankb]

during each tv time out the team managers get out 6 stools.  5 in a semi-circle around 1 for coach pel.  coach spends the entire timeout with a bball white board showing the team something.  now i have not been in that huddle but i think it's safe to assume he is diagramming how to beat a particular trap, where the players need to be to beat a certain defense, offense adjustments to make to handle particular defenses instead of drawing pictures of airplanes and trucks.  i've even seen him personally ask an official where the ball is going to be inbounded after a timeout, presumably so he could draw up an inbounds play.  these are things i see him do, not an assistant.

i've heard him yell things like 'baseline', 'high-post' to alert players to where they should be looking to defend.  i've seen him talk for an extended time to a player he just took out of the game for screwing up.  again i don't know exactly what he is saying, but i can assume he is explaining how to correct his mistake, not asking him how he feels about the lame 20 year-old signs the students hold up while the opposing team is being introduced.

these are all examples of how i've seen pelphrey use x's and o's.  i can't say i saw much of any of that with the previous coach, you know the one who hired hipsher to install an offense?

The "he hired Hipsher to put in an offense" remark just doesn't make much sense to me. He hired an assistant coach to install a system and coach the team. I thought that is why every assistant coach was hired. You also failed to mention that before everyone of those timeouts that you mention that Pel goes over and gets advice from an assistant like Evan's just like Heath did.

I have no doubt Pel is attempting to coach and it may very well be that these players just cannot comprehend fundamental basketball. But if he is diagramming how to beat traps then why are we turning the ball 17 times a game. And I don't doubt that with his own players Pelphrey will look like a much better coach. But what I am disappointed that the only improvement I have seen in any aspect of the game is that the guys are playing harder.

Here are some stats that make me believe Pel hasn't provided any improvement to this ball club. Maybe my assumptions are off and someone who is better with these statistics can prove me wrong. These are the 2006-2007 stats when Heath coaching these same guys.

Points Scored Per Game
Heath - 71.1
Pel  -  74.6
This will probably drop during SEC play when you don't have cupcakes you can score 100 against. PUSH

Points Allowed
Heath - 66
Pel - 62.6
This will also go up during conference play.
PUSH

Turnovers
Heath - 15.2
Pel - 17.2
I would say this would go up in conference play as well but when you have 2 30+ turnover games against the cupcakes it might not.
Adv. Heath

TO Forced
Heath - 12.4
Pel - 18
This will go down in the SEC but still an obvious
Adv Pel

Def FG Percentage
Heath - 41.1
Pel - 40.9
This will go up in conference play but probably not much
PUSH possibly adv Heath

Rebound Margin
Heath +3
Pel +7.5
This will balance out as well in the SEC but probably not 4 rebounds
adv Pel

Assists
Heath - 15 a game
Pel  - 15 a game
May go down in conference but we weren't a very good passing under either coach
Push

And then the all important stats. The record. Obviously Heath's and Pels non conference records were the same.

                  Overall              Home                     Road                     Neutral
Heath          21-14(60%)       13-3(81%) 8-0 NC    2-8(20%) 0-2NC     6-3(67%)
Pel              11-3(79%)         8-0(100%)              0-1                      3-2(60%)

[hogfankb]

I just wish I could see somewhere in the above post where Pel was head and shoulders above heath.

[Razorod]

I just wish I could see somewhere in the above post where Pel was head and shoulders above heath.

Well, if they stood side-by-side, Pel would be head and shoulders above Heath =).

[KAgent]

I agree with Rod. Pel is way above Heath. the talent has not panned out with heaths recruits. When Pel starts getting some of his recruits that fit in to "HIS" system, I think we are in for a good haul with Pel.

[HogJonesboro]

Hey KAgent are you a member of KA

[spudhog]

we have "talent" but not pieces that fit together in a puzzle. pel has already made this team better and when he get's his boy's in. we'll start to take off.

[razorzapp]

The "he hired Hipsher to put in an offense" remark just doesn't make much sense to me. He hired an assistant coach to install a system and coach the team. I thought that is why every assistant coach was hired. You also failed to mention that before everyone of those timeouts that you mention that Pel goes over and gets advice from an assistant like Evan's just like Heath did.

I have no doubt Pel is attempting to coach and it may very well be that these players just cannot comprehend fundamental basketball. But if he is diagramming how to beat traps then why are we turning the ball 17 times a game. And I don't doubt that with his own players Pelphrey will look like a much better coach. But what I am disappointed that the only improvement I have seen in any aspect of the game is that the guys are playing harder.

Here are some stats that make me believe Pel hasn't provided any improvement to this ball club. Maybe my assumptions are off and someone who is better with these statistics can prove me wrong. These are the 2006-2007 stats when Heath coaching these same guys.

Points Scored Per Game
Heath - 71.1
Pel  -  74.6
This will probably drop during SEC play when you don't have cupcakes you can score 100 against. PUSH

Points Allowed
Heath - 66
Pel - 62.6
This will also go up during conference play.
PUSH

Turnovers
Heath - 15.2
Pel - 17.2
I would say this would go up in conference play as well but when you have 2 30+ turnover games against the cupcakes it might not.
Adv. Heath

TO Forced
Heath - 12.4
Pel - 18
This will go down in the SEC but still an obvious
Adv Pel

Def FG Percentage
Heath - 41.1
Pel - 40.9
This will go up in conference play but probably not much
PUSH possibly adv Heath

Rebound Margin
Heath +3
Pel +7.5
This will balance out as well in the SEC but probably not 4 rebounds
adv Pel

Assists
Heath - 15 a game
Pel  - 15 a game
May go down in conference but we weren't a very good passing under either coach
Push

And then the all important stats. The record. Obviously Heath's and Pels non conference records were the same.

                  Overall              Home                     Road                     Neutral
Heath          21-14(60%)       13-3(81%) 8-0 NC    2-8(20%) 0-2NC     6-3(67%)
Pel              11-3(79%)         8-0(100%)              0-1                      3-2(60%)

you asked for examples of x's and o's and i gave them to you.  you can't always use stats to prove your point.  i'm sure with a little effort someone could find many teams/coaches with better stats than duke/coach k this year.  does that mean they are all better coaches than coach k?

do you seriously think you can compare the above stats and decide who the better coach is?  that sounds absurd to me.  you have to be able to look at the big picture, including how the little things are done.  i think if someone objectively does that is very easy to see pel is a better coach than heath.

[hogfankb]

you asked for examples of x's and o's and i gave them to you.  you can't always use stats to prove your point.  i'm sure with a little effort someone could find many teams/coaches with better stats than duke/coach k this year.  does that mean they are all better coaches than coach k?

do you seriously think you can compare the above stats and decide who the better coach is?  that sounds absurd to me.  you have to be able to look at the big picture, including how the little things are done.  i think if someone objectively does that is very easy to see pel is a better coach than heath.

You can't do that with other coaches comparing them to Coach K because they don't have the same players. You can compare Heath with Pel because they are using the exact same players. Execpt pel has them with another year of experience (even though I'm not sure that is that much of a help with these guys) and with an extra piece like Britt who can come in and give solid defense at the guard position.

And I'm not sure I agree that you gave me X's and O's. You gave me examples of how he looks like he is coaching. I could get out there and yell jibberish and draw X's and O's on a white board. That doesn't mean it would work against the opponent.

Like I said I like Pel. He says the right things. He shows intensity and he gets his players to play hard which I thought was Heath's biggest downfall. I have little doubts that with his guard heavy lineup next year that we will see the style he likes and hopefully produce some great results.

But right now all we have to judge his coaching on and all that really matters is results. And his results don't look any different than Heaths.

[razorzapp]

You can't do that with other coaches comparing them to Coach K because they don't have the same players. You can compare Heath with Pel because they are using the exact same players. Execpt pel has them with another year of experience (even though I'm not sure that is that much of a help with these guys) and with an extra piece like Britt who can come in and give solid defense at the guard position.

And I'm not sure I agree that you gave me X's and O's. You gave me examples of how he looks like he is coaching. I could get out there and yell jibberish and draw X's and O's on a white board. That doesn't mean it would work against the opponent.

Like I said I like Pel. He says the right things. He shows intensity and he gets his players to play hard which I thought was Heath's biggest downfall. I have little doubts that with his guard heavy lineup next year that we will see the style he likes and hopefully produce some great results.

But right now all we have to judge his coaching on and all that really matters is results. And his results don't look any different than Heaths.

you are impossible.  let's just agree to disagree.  you are worse than my ex-wife and ex-mother-in-law.  ok maybe not quite that bad. BUT 'he gets his players to play hard' sounds like something a good coach would do..........

[hogfankb]

you are impossible.  let's just agree to disagree.  you are worse than my ex-wife and ex-mother-in-law.  ok maybe not quite that bad. BUT 'he gets his players to play hard' sounds like something a good coach would do..........

We can agree that he isn't a bad coach. I don't think he is bad at all and still have confidence in him to do well with his type of players. I think him getting them to play hard is definitely a good coaching job. But that doesn't mean I'm not disappointed with him and the teams performance this year. Lets hope they start to get better and the results start to show that he is a really good coach.

[RedSatinHog]

My answer is B.

Let's face it.  This team would have folded in Dallas versus Baylor, wouldn't have stood a chance in the Missouri game, and would likely be sitting with at least 5 losses instead of 3 had Heath returned.  Add Texas to the list of losses, and you have 6 headed into conference play. (and yes, I think Texas would have kept us on their schedule if Heath was returning).

Many of you are angry over the Appalachian State loss in LR.  I wasn't happy about it either, but it was one of the games I looked at as being trouble for us before the season ever started.  That was a heckuva good mid-major team we were essentially on a neutral floor with.  They played a solid game against us.

[40MINSOFHELL]

2009 NATIONAL CHAMPIONS- ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS