Which one is it?

[elksnort]

A. The talent is way over rated. Stan was not that bad of a coach.

B. The talent is way over rated. Stan was a bad coach.

C. The talent is way over rated. Coach Pel is not much better.

Folks, things are not any different than last year. Why not? Let's not anoint Pel just yet. This team is freakin' mediocre.

Like some input.

[Ouachihog]

This is the same team that lost 9 in the SEC, and 14 overall, last year.  I'm not sure why some expected 13-3 in the SEC with the same players. 

I guess my answer would be D - Talent is way over rated, don't know which coach is better yet. 

[CurlyTail]

B. I'm not ready to anoint Pel yet either but I'm definitely a believer in him. These are Stan's players, and he couldn't even coach them well. It's just not a very good basketball TEAM. Got some good players, but this group as a whole has never been more than mediocre. I think it is unreasonable to expect Pel to have this team any better than about average, like we are right now.

[hogfan98]

i don't think the talent is that bad.  i think they are good players, they've just been taught bad habits for so long they're beyond repair.  had pelphrey had these guys for 4 years, i think you'd see a much better team.

[elksnort]

thanks guys.

I am darn tired of the Razorback having a mediocre basketball team, and I am here in Jonesboro without digital cable, thus not getting the game even though the damn tv guide deal shows it on Channel 7 and Channel 34.

[razorzapp]

if someone can't tell that coach pel is in a whole different league than heath, then they don't know a thing about basketball.

[Pigonometry]

if someone can't tell that coach pel is in a whole different league than heath, then they don't know a thing about basketball.

Very well said, sir!

[razorzapp]

Very well said, sir!

appreciate that.  can you imagine what this game would have been like with the old staff?  i can.

[Rooka]

I have a feeling with Heath we would be like Kentucky is right now.

[Fletch]

if someone can't tell that coach pel is in a whole different league than heath, then they don't know a thing about basketball.

We're 10-3 with losses to some very mediocre teams and unimpressive victories over others, this is exactly like Heath's teams so far. I am not saying Pelfrey is not a better coach, but your statement does not make one lick of sense at this point.

[Razorod]

Rob Evans will be a big part of any success we have over the next few years. I think he is a great coach. Maybe doesn't have the charisma you want in your head coach, but he's got everything else you would want. I'm very happy to have him sitting on the Hogs bench. Hopefully, Pel + Evans will be a big time winning combination.

[razorzapp]

We're 10-3 with losses to some very mediocre teams and unimpressive victories over others, this is exactly like Heath's teams so far. I am not saying Pelfrey is not a better coach, but your statement does not make one lick of sense at this point.

and you probably think HDN was a good football coach too.

[Pigonometry]

We're 10-3 with losses to some very mediocre teams and unimpressive victories over others, this is exactly like Heath's teams so far. I am not saying Pelfrey is not a better coach, but your statement does not make one lick of sense at this point.

How many times did Heath's teams come back form nine down in the second half to win?  I can't think of even one.  or when did he make half-time adjustments like Pel has done?

He was a great guy but his team's found ways to lose that I didn't know existed.  We'll lose some games this year where we shoot bad but it won't be because we were not prepared or didn't hustle --- that happened a lot in the Heath years.

[razorzapp]

We're 10-3 with losses to some very mediocre teams and unimpressive victories over others, this is exactly like Heath's teams so far. I am not saying Pelfrey is not a better coach, but your statement does not make one lick of sense at this point.

have you watched pel on the sidelines during a game?  have you watched him get in welsh's face after a bone headed play?  have you watched him actually coach during the game?  no comparison to heath.  none.  are we going to win the sec and go deep into the ncaa tournament?  maybe not, but our coach this year gives us a much better shot at it.

[elksnort]

My original point was not to start to bash Pel, but to determine what is wrong.

Tonight's victory was sweet, but they are going to have to build upon this.

We have quite a few good college basketball players, but no real star. A really good team needs at least one star. Who is our star?        Could it be Beverly?

[HogMavFan]

Pelphrey is a lot better coach. Our conditioning is 100% better. We would have run out of juice and lost that game tonight with Heath as our coach. Our problem is the intelligence level of the senior class is very low. Decisions are horrible by Weems and Ervin. Weems was player of the game but still had 5 stupid turnovers plus with a 4 pt lead with 4 minutes and needing to run the clock, he lowers his shoulders and charges over a guy then follows on the next defensive stand while we have them trapped and ready to turn the ball over, he runs in, fouls, and bails him out. Beverley was on fire in the first half until Ervin's and others' egos kicked in and they went 8 minutes without getting Beverley another shot. Pelphrey is trying to teach them but there is a limitation of (brain) matter to deal with.

[Fletch]

have you watched pel on the sidelines during a game?  have you watched him get in welsh's face after a bone headed play?  have you watched him actually coach during the game?  no comparison to heath.  none.  are we going to win the sec and go deep into the ncaa tournament?  maybe not, but our coach this year gives us a much better shot at it.

What about getting in a guys face makes him a better coach? A different style of coach, obviously, better? maybe. We won't know until we see results. Again, we are 10-3 with a low RPI and losses to average teams, just like Heath's years, and this despite all of his yelling and getting in guys faces. Some of our guys have barely even shown up to some of the games. I like Pel. I think he is a good hire. At least I hope he is. All I am saying is that it is just a little naive to annoint him a great coach before he has accomplished anything.

[Fletch]

Pelphrey is a lot better coach. Our conditioning is 100% better. We would have run out of juice and lost that game tonight with Heath as our coach. Our problem is the intelligence level of the senior class is very low. Decisions are horrible by Weems and Ervin. Weems was player of the game but still had 5 stupid turnovers plus with a 4 pt lead with 4 minutes and needing to run the clock, he lowers his shoulders and charges over a guy then follows on the next defensive stand while we have them trapped and ready to turn the ball over, he runs in, fouls, and bails him out. Beverley was on fire in the first half until Ervin's and others' egos kicked in and they went 8 minutes without getting Beverley another shot. Pelphrey is trying to teach them but there is a limitation of (brain) matter to deal with.

So you are saying we would have a worse record at this point under Heath? We won because we played better, not because Pelphrey coached better. We finally hit a few threes. I don't think Heath was a very good coach although I liked him a lot. I just think it is a little too early to tell on Pelphrey.

[Fletch]

My original point was not to start to bash Pel, but to determine what is wrong.

Tonight's victory was sweet, but they are going to have to build upon this.

We have quite a few good college basketball players, but no real star. A really good team needs at least one star. Who is our star?        Could it be Beverly?

I think you are right and your thread was a fair assessment. We don't have a clutch shooter or a true leader. We have decent athletes but not great basketball players.

[Kevin]

over-rated talent, pel much better coach

[othermac]

i still believe we have a very talented team, they just have not had a leader to this point, weems and beverly have both been dissapointing for the most part, when we get them going we are going to be hard to handle.

[razorzapp]

What about getting in a guys face makes him a better coach? A different style of coach, obviously, better? maybe. We won't know until we see results. Again, we are 10-3 with a low RPI and losses to average teams, just like Heath's years, and this despite all of his yelling and getting in guys faces. Some of our guys have barely even shown up to some of the games. I like Pel. I think he is a good hire. At least I hope he is. All I am saying is that it is just a little naive to annoint him a great coach before he has accomplished anything.

i'm not ready to annoint him a as a great coach.  i simply stated he is a much better coach than heath.  and if for some reason you can't see that now, you will in time.

[Fletch]

i'm not ready to annoint him a as a great coach.  i simply stated he is a much better coach than heath.  and if for some reason you can't see that now, you will in time.

My opinion is that he is going to be better as well and I like his style much more, I am just saying that he has not proven to be any more successful than Heath was when he came here. I like him and think he is a good coach, but most thought the same about Stan when he came here. Most thought the same about Nutt. Neither of those coaches were able to prove that they were good coaches and so far Pel hasn't had the opportunity to prove it yet either. Everyone likes his style better and hopefully time will prove him to be a great coach, but there is still a tremendous amount of apathy toward the BB team that only winning big will cure, and that has not been proven yet. I am sorry but that is a fact. So when you make a statement that says "anyone who can't see that Pel is in a whole different league than Heath knows nothing about basketball" with no hard facts to back it up other than your opinion of his sideline demeaner, then your statement is premature. It may prove to be correct in time and I hope it is but as of now, the jury is still out.

I am not trying to start an argument, I am just waiting for evidence before getting all excited.

[Cracker Jack]

I would think that the #6 recruiting class IN THE NATION is indicative of what kind of coach we now have.

[florence_nitecap]

I love Pel.  I don't expect to be without losses this year, but there is no way we would've beat Baylor had we had Heath.  Winning the game IS the difference.

[Fletch]

I would think that the #6 recruiting class IN THE NATION is indicative of what kind of coach we now have.

REALLY? That's how you judge a new coach? By one recruiting class that hasn't made it to campus yet? Sorry, but I will stick with judging him by wins and losses, which still leads me to believe it is too early to tell. Again, I think he WILL BE a good coach, just not going to annoint him one yet.

[Fletch]

I love Pel.  I don't expect to be without losses this year, but there is no way we would've beat Baylor had we had Heath.  Winning the game IS the difference.

What did he do that beat Baylor? Did he suddenly show up and hit 9 of 15 three pointers? Is this how far our program has sunk where we are talking about what a monumental win against Baylor is?

[Cracker Jack]

Not the only criteria, Fletch, but you gotta admit it is a great start!  I agree with the others that Pel has won more games this year with this group than Stan would have (no way we win last night with Stan).  In his FIRST year the recruting class is higher than Heath ever achieved.  What more do you want out of the guy?  Be patient, enjoy the season, and give the guy a chance. 

[Fletch]

Not the only criteria, Fletch, but you gotta admit it is a great start!  I agree with the others that Pel has won more games this year with this group than Stan would have (no way we win last night with Stan).  In his FIRST year the recruting class is higher than Heath ever achieved.  What more do you want out of the guy?  Be patient, enjoy the season, and give the guy a chance. 

I am giving him a great chance just like I did Heath, and again I like him, but we have not yet accomplished anything. To say this team is better than it would be with Heath is speculation, we rank near the bottom of the SEC in many statistical categories. The recruiting class is a great start, BTW they are ranked 14th by rivals which is the same as Heaths '06 class was ranked by Scout. I am excited that we made a change but am not impressed at all by the way this team has played this year. I don't blame that on Pelphrey, I blame it on the players, but it is still not anything to get too excited about yet. Look at the crowds at BWA, I am not alone in my skepticism. I look forward to the next couple of years seeing what Pel can do though.

[Tigerhog14s]

Give the guy a chance to get his own players here. I guess since Nolan didnt do well in his first couple of years we should have fired him. Wrong!!!!  Had to have the players he wanted.

[CurlyTail]

What did he do that beat Baylor?

It's called coaching. If you couldn't see that major adjustments were made at halftime of that game, particularly on defense, then you don't know anything about basketball. Not a chance in hell we win that game with Stan Heath.

[Fletch]

It's called coaching. If you couldn't see that major adjustments were made at halftime of that game, particularly on defense, then you don't know anything about basketball. Not a chance in hell we win that game with Stan Heath.

So because we (an unranked team) beat another unranked team (Baylor), anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't know anything about basketball? Seriously, you need to stop before you embarrass yourself. We began the year unranked, halfway through the year we are still unranked, we have three losses against three unranked teams, and the only reason we beat Baylor was because Pelphrey is the coach and not Heath? Seriously? My, how our standards for basketball have fallen. Once again for the learning impaired, I think Pel is a good coach and will do fine, hopefully great, but there is no EVIDENCE as of yet because he has not had time to recruit his players to his system. What part of that doesn't make sense?

[CurlyTail]

So because we (an unranked team) beat another unranked team (Baylor), anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion doesn't know anything about basketball? Seriously, you need to stop before you embarrass yourself. We began the year unranked, halfway through the year we are still unranked, we have three losses against three unranked teams, and the only reason we beat Baylor was because Pelphrey is the coach and not Heath? Seriously? My, how our standards for basketball have fallen. Once again for the learning impaired, I think Pel is a good coach and will do fine, hopefully great, but there is no EVIDENCE as of yet because he has not had time to recruit his players to his system. What part of that doesn't make sense?

I know it flew right over your head, but you just made my point for me. You're right, Pel has not had the time to recruit his own players. Yet he comes in here, not knowing these players at all, and has the team looking and playing at about the same level as they did under Stan. You've already admitted that in a previous post of yours. There is your EVIDENCE.

Stan had how long with this group of players? And Pel has had how long? And you admit that the team is playing at about the same level as they did last year. So one man comes in, and in half a season, has the team (comprised of the other man's players, don't forget) playing at the same level that it took the other man five years to get to. And you're seriously debating who is the better coach?

And it wasn't my opinion, it's a fact. Anybody who watched the game (which you obviously didn't) could see that there was a night and day difference in our defense in the 2nd half. That's called coaching. Observing the trends of the game and making adjustments that give you the best shot to win. If you couldn't notice that, and realize that Pel is light years ahead of Stan in that regard, then I once again reiterate, you don't know anything about basketball.

[J-Ro]

I can't see how any Hog fan can honestly b!tch about coach Pel...especially when he hasn't recruited players to fit into his system yet. 2, maybe 3 years from now smite me for this...but not yet. I even liked coach Heath...as a person, but don't think his coaching style is competitive in the SEC. Would you rather have B. Gillespie???

[olivebranchhog]

wow the fact that anyone has an idea in their head that pel is not better than heath is crazy to me. i think the whole layoff from the 90's hurt some peoples knowledge of b-ball. look at tape on youtube or whatever you have to do of mizzou this year and last year. same team-same style- but pel made adjustments where heath just tried to keep doing what he always did(sit on his ass and let bone head plays go by without saying anything about it) in the case of yelling makes a better coach, your just reaching to try and make your point understood. pel treats every player different based on their style- heath was just passive to everyone- this makes the guy that yells better than the guy that just sits around.i hope you understand this

[razorzapp]

I know it flew right over your head, but you just made my point for me. You're right, Pel has not had the time to recruit his own players. Yet he comes in here, not knowing these players at all, and has the team looking and playing at about the same level as they did under Stan. You've already admitted that in a previous post of yours. There is your EVIDENCE.

Stan had how long with this group of players? And Pel has had how long? And you admit that the team is playing at about the same level as they did last year. So one man comes in, and in half a season, has the team (comprised of the other man's players, don't forget) playing at the same level that it took the other man five years to get to. And you're seriously debating who is the better coach?

And it wasn't my opinion, it's a fact. Anybody who watched the game (which you obviously didn't) could see that there was a night and day difference in our defense in the 2nd half. That's called coaching. Observing the trends of the game and making adjustments that give you the best shot to win. If you couldn't notice that, and realize that Pel is light years ahead of Stan in that regard, then I once again reiterate, you don't know anything about basketball.

definately night and day differences between the 1st and 2nd halves.  baylor was killing us with guard penetration (which i was livid about in the first half) and we obviously made changes at halftime to stop that.  rob evans even made mention of the halftime adjustments during the post-game.  we HAVE NOT seen that in the past 5 years.

[razorzapp]

wow the fact that anyone has an idea in their head that pel is not better than heath is crazy to me. i think the whole layoff from the 90's hurt some peoples knowledge of b-ball. look at tape on youtube or whatever you have to do of mizzou this year and last year. same team-same style- but pel made adjustments where heath just tried to keep doing what he always did(sit on his ass and let bone head plays go by without saying anything about it) in the case of yelling makes a better coach, your just reaching to try and make your point understood. pel treats every player different based on their style- heath was just passive to everyone- this makes the guy that yells better than the guy that just sits around.i hope you understand this

great point about heath being passive to everyone.  passive to the players, the referees, the fans, everyone.

[Fletch]

I know it flew right over your head, but you just made my point for me. You're right, Pel has not had the time to recruit his own players. Yet he comes in here, not knowing these players at all, and has the team looking and playing at about the same level as they did under Stan. You've already admitted that in a previous post of yours. There is your EVIDENCE.

Stan had how long with this group of players? And Pel has had how long? And you admit that the team is playing at about the same level as they did last year. So one man comes in, and in half a season, has the team (comprised of the other man's players, don't forget) playing at the same level that it took the other man five years to get to. And you're seriously debating who is the better coach?

And it wasn't my opinion, it's a fact. Anybody who watched the game (which you obviously didn't) could see that there was a night and day difference in our defense in the 2nd half. That's called coaching. Observing the trends of the game and making adjustments that give you the best shot to win. If you couldn't notice that, and realize that Pel is light years ahead of Stan in that regard, then I once again reiterate, you don't know anything about basketball.

You are saying that with the same team Heath had we are in the same place (unranked, 3 losses against unranked teams, bottom of SEC in many statistical categories but due to a halftime adjustment that beats one of those unranked teams we have a great coach. Why, because we would be 9-4 instead of 10-3 without a halftime adjustment. You are right, I did admit I thought he was a good coach, which is why in all your premature excitement to annoint yourself King of basketball knowledge, you completely missed my point. Which is again, to say that it is too early to judge him as a great coach. That is my point. Sorry if you missed it. I have said from the beginning it is too early to tell so I fail to see how that makes your point.

Please, you are actually going to use your statement that a new coach comes in and has this team playing at the same level as Heath as an argument that makes him a better coach. It's the exact same team playing at about the same level. Were they supposed to get worse under the new coach?
Please stop. Now you are just being silly.

Do I really need to state once again for you that I like coach Pel and think he will do well but it is too early to annoint him savior to the program IMO? Surely your self acclaimed vast expertise in basketball would permit you to comprehend that.

I thought Heath did a lousy job and deserved to get fired, but I am reserving judgement on our future success until I see it consistently on the court.

[Fletch]

wow the fact that anyone has an idea in their head that pel is not better than heath is crazy to me. i think the whole layoff from the 90's hurt some peoples knowledge of b-ball. look at tape on youtube or whatever you have to do of mizzou this year and last year. same team-same style- but pel made adjustments where heath just tried to keep doing what he always did(sit on his ass and let bone head plays go by without saying anything about it) in the case of yelling makes a better coach, your just reaching to try and make your point understood. pel treats every player different based on their style- heath was just passive to everyone- this makes the guy that yells better than the guy that just sits around.i hope you understand this

I see your point and agree with much of what you say. All I am saying is I am waiting for it to translate into consistent wins and losses. You can point to Mizz, and Baylor and make a point and that's great, I agree about the halftime adjustments. Where were they against Oklahoma, Appalachian State, and Providence? I am ready for a consistently winning program again and will be as excited as anyone when we get there.

[LIVNLUVHAWGS]

Anyone that's complaining about this team and this coach obviously did not spend the last few years sittin' at Bud Walton watching a team that couldn't play together, a coach that had no idea what to do and fans that would show up but be bored and/or embarrassed!!!  These players are playing together, getting along with each other and the coach is really really into every game.  OU has a very good team and we have quality wins against MO & Baylor.  I can't believe any Razorback fan is not THRILLED with the changes!

[CurlyTail]

You are saying that with the same team Heath had we are in the same place (unranked, 3 losses against unranked teams, bottom of SEC in many statistical categories but due to a halftime adjustment that beats one of those unranked teams we have a great coach. Why, because we would be 9-4 instead of 10-3 without a halftime adjustment. You are right, I did admit I thought he was a good coach, which is why in all your premature excitement to annoint yourself King of basketball knowledge, you completely missed my point. Which is again, to say that it is too early to judge him as a great coach. That is my point. Sorry if you missed it. I have said from the beginning it is too early to tell so I fail to see how that makes your point.

Please, you are actually going to use your statement that a new coach comes in and has this team playing at the same level as Heath as an argument that makes him a better coach. It's the exact same team playing at about the same level. Were they supposed to get worse under the new coach?Please stop. Now you are just being silly.

Do I really need to state once again for you that I like coach Pel and think he will do well but it is too early to annoint him savior to the program IMO? Surely your self acclaimed vast expertise in basketball would permit you to comprehend that.

I thought Heath did a lousy job and deserved to get fired, but I am reserving judgement on our future success until I see it consistently on the court.

OK, I think this is going to have to be my last attempt at explaining this for you. If you read my first post in this thread, you will see that for the most part I agree with your views. I am not "anointing" Pel by any stretch of the imagination. This has nothing to do with me thinking he is savior of the basketball program or how much success I think he will have here. You are obviously not understanding my posts. If you would take the time to read them again, you would see that my points are about comparison between Stan and Pel.

When you make statements like this

So you are saying we would have a worse record at this point under Heath? We won because we played better, not because Pelphrey coached better.

and this

What did he do that beat Baylor? Did he suddenly show up and hit 9 of 15 three pointers?

it implies that you think Pel is not as good of a coach as Stan, or at best, equal with him. I'm sorry, but this is laughable. I really didn't even want to dignify the second quote with a response, since it is one of the most absurd things I've read on here in a while to suggest that we won that game in spite of our coach and that he had no part in the victory whatsoever. Anybody with the slightest bit of basketball knowledge can look at both last year's team and this year's and tell which is better coached. If you want to reserve your overall judgment of Pel, that's fine, I'm doing the same thing. My only point was there should be no doubt in your head who is the better coach of the two, and if there is, then you either haven't been watching our team the last few years or you don't know a whole lot about basketball.

[ImapigUrapig]

wow the fact that anyone has an idea in their head that pel is not better than heath is crazy to me. i think the whole layoff from the 90's hurt some peoples knowledge of b-ball. look at tape on youtube or whatever you have to do of mizzou this year and last year. same team-same style- but pel made adjustments where heath just tried to keep doing what he always did(sit on his ass and let bone head plays go by without saying anything about it) in the case of yelling makes a better coach, your just reaching to try and make your point understood. pel treats every player different based on their style- heath was just passive to everyone- this makes the guy that yells better than the guy that just sits around.i hope you understand this

[ImapigUrapig]

oops. Did anyone notice Pel's eyes when he got the T.How often did you see that in SH eyes? Besides x's and O's Pel's got passion and a deep desire to win.These kids have been in the same system their whole time at the Uof A.You can tell the tide is turning.Success breeds success.

[HawgG]

A. The talent is way over rated. Stan was not that bad of a coach.

B. The talent is way over rated. Stan was a bad coach.

C. The talent is way over rated. Coach Pel is not much better.

Folks, things are not any different than last year. Why not? Let's not anoint Pel just yet. This team is freakin' mediocre.

Like some input.

b

You do realize that the answer B makes no damn sense at all.

Poor talent and a bad coach add up to being a bad team that wins between 5 and 10 games.

I do believe that Arkansas won more then that the last few seasons under Heath.Hell I like bringing facts to the table. but damn some things just aren't worth mentioning when it is plainly obvious.

[Bigfoot]

We won a road game! a+ for that alone!  IMO

[Milton]

I think we have talent, but I think Stan Heath was underated as a coach. He wasn't the best coach but I've seen much worse. I think Pel is a better coach thought but it will be a year or 2 before we get a good team. He has to recruit his type of players before that will happen.

[Fletch]

I am excited we made a change and went in a different direction. I just don't see how we can claim great coaching has had a chance to do anything yet. We have the exact same non conference record this year as last and have been largely unimpressive. I hope that the Baylor game was a turning point to more consistent performance. My fear is it was another abberation and we will once again be dissappointed at the end of the year. But what do I know about basketball. I apparently haven't watched one game in the last few years.

[Razorod]

I guess where I stand of this debate is that I think Pel is an upgrade over Heath. How much of an upgrade remains to be seen. Conference play hasn't even begun yet. If we lose to Auburn we'll all be back on here wondering about ourselves again. Maybe we blame the players instead of Pel, but we're no looking no better than last year.

Pel has an opportunity to do something Heath never did in five years: get off to a 3-0 start in conference play. He has a very winnable road game followed by two home games they should win as well. If he can do that, maybe we're in the processing of turning the corner.

By the way, the best coaching move Pel has made so far in my opinion, is hiring Rob Evans. That was a very smart move on Pel's part and I hope Pel and Evans stay together for a long while at the UA. I think that combo could be very successful.

[razorzapp]

again all i'm trying to say on this issue is that pel is a better coach than heath and that in my opinion a person should be able to see that by now.  whether or not he is known as a great coach will only be answered by how much he wins.  if you don't win sec championships and get to final fours, you won't be known as a great coach. 

[GoodLuckGus]

It seems some of you are trying to hold Pel completely accountable for a poorly coached group of upper classmen.  It wouldn't be easy for any coach to fix many of the issues that have been allowed to become ingrained in group like this in a mere half season.  But just watching Pel work it should be obvious that we have good things ahead of us.   This sort of talk is basically just plain stupid at this point.  Wait until Pel gets some of his players in and see what happens.  Then you can make a fair judgement.