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People forget that...

Started by Busta_Nutt, November 07, 2017, 02:39:46 pm

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RME

Quote from: 31to6 on November 07, 2017, 08:05:45 pm
He also took over a program that had, basically, no tradition of winning at any high level. They had been to a grand total of 6 bowls in program history, with only 1 bowl win.

Which makes what Beamer did even more impressive, so if that's what you're saying then I agree. He single-handedly built them into a nationally relevant team year in and year out.

Porkchop#1

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 07, 2017, 02:39:46 pm
Frank Beamer never won more than 6 games in his first six seasons at VT, including 4 losing seasons, before turning that program into a national power. I know we're quick to blame CBB, but should we simply chalk this season up as an inexperienced team riddled with injuries, that has been horrendously coached?
Fify

 

EastexHawg

People forget that a guy once plunged to Earth with a parachute that didn't open and survived.

Now who's up for swan diving off the upper deck of DWRRS onto Razorback Road?

Busta_Nutt

Quote from: Hoggie17 on November 07, 2017, 08:26:06 pm
Beamer made progress each of his first 6 years.

Y1: 2-9
Y2: 3-8
Y3: 6-4-1
Y4: 6-5
Y5: 5-6
Y6: 2-8-1

In what world is this progress?

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: KennyForAD on November 07, 2017, 08:12:52 pm
Are you saying that you think that there is a chance that BB can actually coach football and we should see what happens next year?   I've been drinking Absynthe since Monday.  Surely I'm hallucinating.   I'm not sure whether I want you to tell me that you are serious, or joking.  If you aren't a fantasy, look up offensive line stats, then get back to me.  I'm not certain of much in this world, but I'm as sure as it gets that BB has no idea how to coach football, and I'm almost as sure that there isn't anyone who follows football who doesn't see that.
So its pretty clear you would just prefer to argue, and if I dont agree then I dont know football, ok thats fine...  So heres what I'll say.  CBB got this job because he was a good football coach.  He hasnt had that level of success here which is disappointing.  My point, again back to the topic of the Op was that other coaches have shown improvement after year 5, and that next year our schedule lends to that possibility particularly due to coaching changes.  I'm not sure why thats controversial.  As for next year, we can both pretend we know who will be here but the truth is we don't.

31to6

Quote from: From Tusk Till Dawn on November 07, 2017, 08:39:29 pm
So its pretty clear you would just prefer to argue, and if I dont agree then I dont know football, ok thats fine...  So heres what I'll say.  CBB got this job because he was a good football coach.  He hasnt had that level of success here which is disappointing.  My point, again back to the topic of the Op was that other coaches have shown improvement after year 5, and that next year our schedule lends to that possibility particularly due to coaching changes.  I'm not sure why thats controversial.  As for next year, we can both pretend we know who will be here but the truth is we don't.
Sure, coaches improve. But Beamer was building something from nothing.

CBB, on the other hand, stands on the shoulders of giants at Arkansas.

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: jabberjawls on November 07, 2017, 08:15:45 pm
Are you serious?  CBB had 5 YEARS!! The product on the field is AWFUL and has been awful.  Nothing will change by giving another year.   The only way the RAZORBACKS are going to get better is with a NEW coach.
You do realize this whole discussion is about the possibility of success after failure right? 

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: 31to6 on November 07, 2017, 08:48:10 pm
Sure, coaches improve. But Beamer was building something from nothing.

CBB, on the other hand, stands on the shoulders of giants at Arkansas.

I wouldnt go that far atleast from an SEC perspective but I get what you mean.  We do have rich tradition and people want to see us return there.  If a coaching change is made Im concerned about the candidate pool with the number of potential openings.

jabberjawls

Quote from: From Tusk Till Dawn on November 07, 2017, 08:48:28 pm
You do realize this whole discussion is about the possibility of success after failure right? 
You might want to look at the your post to which i responded.  Your agenda is clear.

31to6

Quote from: From Tusk Till Dawn on November 07, 2017, 09:00:24 pm
I wouldnt go that far atleast from an SEC perspective but I get what you mean.  We do have rich tradition and people want to see us return there.  If a coaching change is made Im concerned about the candidate pool with the number of potential openings.
So giants might be hyperbole. But the point is that Arkansas has both historical success and recent success that shows that you can win here. We have facilities, budget, etc.

Beamer had, essentially, not a whole lot to work with.

So there is really no way that what he did (in a different football era) really has much bearing on whether or not CBB should be given more than 5 years to succeed.

And, EVEN THEN, if CBB were looking at 8 regular season wins this season with 4-4 in the SEC, he would be completely, 100%, Auburn-lock, s a f e. Because it would be an improvement over last year with a chance to get to 9 wins with a bowl.

The reason we are even talking about this is that he peaked in 2015 (at what is "just barely" acceptable performance) and has been going downhill the last two years.

Bebop

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 07, 2017, 02:39:46 pm
Frank Beamer never won more than 6 games in his first six seasons at VT, including 4 losing seasons, before turning that program into a national power. I know we're quick to blame CBB, but should we simply chalk this season up as an inexperienced team riddled with injuries?

He is an exception, not the rule.

It can be argued that by year 3 one can tell whether or not a coach has a program going in the right direction. In year 3, we underachieved with Bielema.

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: jabberjawls on November 07, 2017, 09:09:42 pm
You might want to look at the your post to which i responded.  Your agenda is clear.
Sorry man, I have no idea what the heck you are talking about, im not on some campaign to change hearts and minds.  I pointed out Mullen had a breakout year, others mentioned Beamer did, which was the point of the discussion, so what exactly is yours?

BadHog

"Rumors are started by haters, spread by the fools and accepted by idiots."

 

From Tusk Till Dawn

Quote from: 31to6 on November 07, 2017, 09:10:39 pm
So giants might be hyperbole. But the point is that Arkansas has both historical success and recent success that shows that you can win here. We have facilities, budget, etc.

Beamer had, essentially, not a whole lot to work with.

So there is really no way that what he did (in a different football era) really has much bearing on whether or not CBB should be given more than 5 years to succeed.

And, EVEN THEN, if CBB were looking at 8 regular season wins this season with 4-4 in the SEC, he would be completely, 100%, Auburn-lock, s a f e. Because it would be an improvement over last year with a chance to get to 9 wins with a bowl.

The reason we are even talking about this is that he peaked in 2015 (at what is "just barely" acceptable performance) and has been going downhill the last two years.
I agree with alot of your points.  Im not suggesting you keep CBB and hope for the best. I support him but its not blind support and if he stayed some dpring cleaning would be required.   All Im suggesting is that if he is retained, there could be alot of transition in the West which could provide some opportunities for a breakout year.  I have as much faith that he can have success next year as some potential first year SEC head coach.   

rusvegashog

Quote from: KennyForAD on November 07, 2017, 07:31:16 pm
Really?
Not on the scale of the others, but there were plenty of folk that wanted him gone after the sideline cursing and even more after the accident. Maybe I'm naive I just feel unless we're able to catch lightening in a bottle and get that one coach that really will make the difference that we're better off righting the ship with CBB. I think it would show stability.  Truth be known I personally think that "one coach" is in Auburn, but we won't have the balls to make that move. These are just my opinions. Don't chastise me too bad.

KennyForAD

Quote from: jabberjawls on November 07, 2017, 08:15:45 pm
Are you serious?  CBB had 5 YEARS!! The product on the field is AWFUL and has been awful.  Nothing will change by giving another year.   The only way the RAZORBACKS are going to get better is with a NEW coach.

Highly doubtful.   Have you not noticed the troll explosion today?  Its like there's four or five actual fans and a thousand trolls today.   Hard to miss.

rusvegashog

Quote from: Bebop on November 07, 2017, 09:12:49 pm
He is an exception, not the rule.

It can be argued that by year 3 one can tell whether or not a coach has a program going in the right direction. In year 3, we underachieved with Bielema.
Snyder at Kstate and Patterson at TCU. I haven't looked it up, but I was thinkin both those coaches took a minute as well. My recollection could be wrong.

KennyForAD

Quote from: rusvegashog on November 07, 2017, 10:49:44 pm
Not on the scale of the others, but there were plenty of folk that wanted him gone after the sideline cursing and even more after the accident. Maybe I'm naive I just feel unless we're able to catch lightening in a bottle and get that one coach that really will make the difference that we're better off righting the ship with CBB. I think it would show stability.  Truth be known I personally think that "one coach" is in Auburn, but we won't have the balls to make that move. These are just my opinions. Don't chastise me too bad.

LOL.  A minion with a sense of humor.  +1 to you.   Now get your ass back to Pittsburgh.

GoHogs1091

Beamer showed progress.

Also, doubtful Beamer lost to a mediocre team at home in which the mediocre team did not have to punt during the game (i.e. Texas Tech in Fayetteville).

MushroomCloudHog

November 08, 2017, 06:40:01 am #69 Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 10:12:28 pm by MushroomCloudHog
Frank Beamer played in the Big East. He also kept his assistants for a while most of the time.

Kevin

coach tell your family to quit posting on here. your time is done here. move along.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Busta_Nutt

Quote from: Kevin on November 08, 2017, 06:48:58 am
coach tell your family to quit posting on here. your time is done here. move along.

Stay in your lane, Kevin.

EastexHawg

Quote from: rusvegashog on November 07, 2017, 10:49:44 pm
Truth be known I personally think that "one coach" is in Auburn, but we won't have the balls to make that move. These are just my opinions. Don't chastise me too bad.

I have never wanted Gus, but if I'm being honest I'll admit you may be right.  For some reason I dislike him less than I used to.

Dwight_K_Shrute

Ok time to bring some facts to the conversation about Beamer's greatness and it taking him so long to get going and patience is a virtue blah blah blah.

The first argument I saw was VaTech was a historically bad program, done nothing and had only been to X bowl games in so many years before Beamer got there.

Beamer arrived in 1987 before the Bowl Explosion.  Also VaTech was an independent before Beamer arrived and for the first several years of his tenure which made getting to a bowl more difficult.

How bad was VaTech before Beamer arrived?  Here is Bill Dooley's record.

4-7
5-6
8-4
7-4
7-4
9-2
8-4
6-5
10-2-1

7 consecutive winning seasons before Beamer arrived, capped by a 10 win season the year before Beamer was hired.  They got left out of a bowl game going 9-2 because they were an independent and their weren't as many bowls.  They would have been to 7 straight in today's environment.

The narrative that VaTech was not good before Beamer arrived is basically shaped by Beamer's first 6 years.  He was rebuilding on his own failures not those of his predecessor. 

This is not to say that Beamer was not a great coach.  He obviously was, but a coach having the run he had after starting 24-40 is the exception not the rule.  Think Va Tech or any other school that gives a damn about football would put up with a 24-40 6 year record in this day and age when you can basically schedule your way to 6-6?

Little known fact, but prior to settling on Guantanamo, the Pentagon wanted to house terror suspects at War Memorial Stadium.  It was deemed to be cruel and unusual punishment and in violation of the Geneva Convention.

 

hvsupastar

Beamer also spent those first 6 seasons in the 1930's.  This is 2017 in the SEC where defensive linemen were
"Do not believe everything you read on the internet just because it has quotations next to the image of someone prominent" - Abraham Lincoln

BigK_HogHeaven

......Nah.

This team has already peaked under Bielema.  2015 was the peak.  It's gotten worse since then. 

Hogman_33


KennyForAD

Quote from: Seebs on November 07, 2017, 08:23:41 pm
I went to college with Frank Beamer. We were in congress together. I knew Frank Beamer. Bret Bielemia is no Frank Beamer.

Nominated:  Post of the Year.

ipigsooie

People forget because it was in a different lifetime. People also forget about leather helmets and field goals in the end zone. People forget that Florida State was a women's college.

Also, Frank Beamer made 90k a year at VT. In 1986 money that translates to a little over 200k noe. I guess if CBB was making 200 thousand a year we may be a little more patient.

Either you are the troll of the year or you are a relative. 

RME

Quote from: ipigsooie on November 08, 2017, 10:34:31 am
People forget because it was in a different lifetime. People also forget about leather helmets and field goals in the end zone. People forget that Florida State was a women's college.

Also, Frank Beamer made 90k a year at VT. In 1986 money that translates to a little over 200k noe. I guess if CBB was making 200 thousand a year we may be a little more patient.

Either you are the troll of the year or you are a relative.


Ah yes. Someone has an opinion different from yours, so naturally, they're a troll or being paid or a relative.

The death of rational discourse as we know it. Rather than form an opposing argument, it's "TROLL" or "BOT" or any other really intelligent forms of name-calling.

KennyForAD

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 08, 2017, 10:35:52 am
Ah yes. Someone has an opinion different from yours, so naturally, they're a troll or being paid or a relative.

The death of rational discourse as we know it.

No.  His 'opinion' is so absurd that it cannot be sincere.   Kinda like yours.

RME

Quote from: KennyForAD on November 08, 2017, 10:37:11 am
No.  His 'opinion' is so absurd that it cannot be sincere.   Kinda like yours.

What was my opinion?

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 07, 2017, 02:39:46 pm
Frank Beamer never won more than 6 games in his first six seasons at VT, including 4 losing seasons, before turning that program into a national power. I know we're quick to blame CBB, but should we simply chalk this season up as an inexperienced team riddled with injuries?

VT is not a national power. 

We will never have the patience to stick with a coach till they can figure it out no matter how long it takes.  At least not unless it is a really personal hire where we make them essentially coach for life. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

steveaustin69

Quote from: ipigsooie on November 08, 2017, 10:34:31 am
People forget because it was in a different lifetime. People also forget about leather helmets and field goals in the end zone. People forget that Florida State was a women's college.

Also, Frank Beamer made 90k a year at VT. In 1986 money that translates to a little over 200k noe. I guess if CBB was making 200 thousand a year we may be a little more patient.

Either you are the troll of the year or you are a relative.

Pretty good troll job imo. Gotta respect the hustle

ipigsooie

Quote from: RyanMallettsEgo on November 08, 2017, 10:35:52 am
Ah yes. Someone has an opinion different from yours, so naturally, they're a troll or being paid or a relative.

The death of rational discourse as we know it. Rather than form an opposing argument, it's "TROLL" or "BOT" or any other really intelligent forms of name-calling.

He is comparing a guy keeping his job that makes 200 thousand a year to a guy that makes over 4 million. How is that logical? Or a "rational"  comparison?

RME

Quote from: ipigsooie on November 08, 2017, 10:39:47 am
He is comparing a guy keeping his job that makes 200 thousand a year to a guy that makes over 4 million. How is that logical? Or a "rational"  comparison?

No, he wasn't. You brought that into the equation. The OP was discussing records in relation to years-coached. With your logic of discussing salaries, we can't compare any performance by coaches from like 2000 onward to any coaches prior to 2000.

Busta_Nutt

Quote from: ipigsooie on November 08, 2017, 10:34:31 am
People forget because it was in a different lifetime. People also forget about leather helmets and field goals in the end zone. People forget that Florida State was a women's college.

Also, Frank Beamer made 90k a year at VT. In 1986 money that translates to a little over 200k noe. I guess if CBB was making 200 thousand a year we may be a little more patient.

Either you are the troll of the year or you are a relative.

I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

steveaustin69

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:44:02 am
I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

MS. State? Come on, man.

Ex-Trumpet

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:44:02 am
I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

Apparently you've never been to College Station, Auburn, or Starkville.
Do dyslexic, agnostic insomniacs lie awake at night wondering if there really is a dog?


Hog-Corleone

Quote from: hawgfan4life on November 07, 2017, 03:35:12 pm
That is worth repeating:

It is year five and there is not one position or phase of the game that fans can point to and say BB has that position, group, or phase of the game on solid footing.

Worth repeating again... and again, and again...
This is my word, and as such is beyond contestation.

RME


KennyForAD

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:44:02 am
I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

Oh.... so when Jeffie can't hire a decent coach, we can blame it on this, instead of the truth, that Jeffie just can't hire a decent coach.

ipigsooie

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:44:02 am
I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

So what does that have to do with anything? We are supposed to keep a proven failure because other jobs that you consider better than ours are possibly coming open? We lured a big 10 coach with 3 big 10 titles, and an NFL coach as our past 2 hires. In hindsight neither worked out but the fact that we were able to get coaches if this caliber should tell you something. It's not like we are going to have trouble finding a coach because of other places. This is one of the best coaches markets in years. We could throw a dart at a map of every coach in America and not be any worse than we are in year 5 under the current regime.

Busta_Nutt

Quote from: Ex-Trumpet on November 08, 2017, 10:46:21 am
Apparently you've never been to College Station, Auburn, or Starkville.

You can't be serious to think that Arkansas is a better job than TAMU and Auburn, right? Must I remind you what the great Lou Holtz said? "Fayetteville is not the end of the earth, but you can see it from there."

steveaustin69

Quote from: KennyForAD on November 08, 2017, 10:49:03 am
Oh.... so when Jeffie can't hire a decent coach, we can blame it on this, instead of the truth, that Jeffie just can't hire a decent coach.

He hired Petrino and Anderson.  At the time Bielema was a great hire.  I don't understand people that blame Long.

ipigsooie

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:50:28 am
You can't be serious to think that Arkansas is a better job than TAMU and Auburn, right? Must I remind you what the great Lou Holtz said? "Fayetteville is not the end of the earth, but you can see it from there."

He also said, "how do you know what it's like to be stupid if you've never been smart? " which makes me think of some of the posts on here.

Hog-Corleone

Quote from: Busta_Nutt on November 08, 2017, 10:44:02 am
I am neither, I am a realist who believes that our beloved Arkansas Razorbacks are currently not as good of a job as the others who potentially could have coaching vacancies. (Florida, Tennessee, Texas A&M, Auburn, MS. State)

Woe is me, we are poor wittle arkeesaw.  We not as good as other pwaces.  We coodnt possibee get a gude coach.  Other pwaces are better den us....

I fricken hate this sentiment.  It's the last remaining false argument for anyone wanting to keep the current coach, no matter who it is.  It has been used and debunked at every coaching change we've had.  End this, please.
This is my word, and as such is beyond contestation.

KennyForAD

Quote from: Hog-Corleone on November 08, 2017, 10:54:10 am
Woe is me, we are poor wittle arkeesaw.  We not as good as other pwaces.  We coodnt possibee get a gude coach.  Other pwaces are better den us....

I fricken hate this sentiment.  It's the last remaining false argument for anyone wanting to keep the current coach, no matter who it is.  It has been used and debunked at every coaching change we've had.  End this, please.

They aren't saying that to excuse BB.   They are saying that crap in a pathetic attempt to protect Jeff Long, for this hire, and his next failed hire.

The trolls saying all this nonsense are not Hog fans, they are Jeff Long minions.  We CANNOT get better until the snake, Jeff Long. is gone.

Busta_Nutt

Quote from: Hog-Corleone on November 08, 2017, 10:54:10 am
Woe is me, we are poor wittle arkeesaw.  We not as good as other pwaces.  We coodnt possibee get a gude coach.  Other pwaces are better den us....

I fricken hate this sentiment.  It's the last remaining false argument for anyone wanting to keep the current coach, no matter who it is.  It has been used and debunked at every coaching change we've had.  End this, please.

You can hate the statement all you'd like, but it still doesn't change the fact that Arkansas will more than likely be competing against 5 SEC schools that are arguably better jobs, either because of location and the talent that comes with the territory, or current state of the program. Why wouldn't you ride this out and, heaven forbid, if we are in the same state next year, Arkansas becomes a top available SEC job.