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Author Topic: Wonder how Tenner is making the numbers work?...  (Read 17517 times)

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Tiredofhogssucking

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2015, 11:14:43 am »

Does anyone have an idea on how Tenn is able to sign the following:

2013    22 recruits
2014    31 recruits
2015    29 recruits

And still claim they are not over-signing. 
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onebadrubi

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2015, 11:15:32 am »

Does anyone have an idea on how Tenn is able to sign the following:

2013    22 recruits
2014    31 recruits
2015    29 recruits

And still claim they are not over-signing.

Because they are orange! 
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BearsBisonsBoars

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2015, 11:16:59 am »

I would have rather taken an invited walk on spot at Arkansas than take a schollie at UCA.  Just sayin...

I get what you're saying, but you have to think long term. For a lot of these kids, this is their shot at an education and a better life. Besides, you can hope to transfer after you've proven yourself.

(edit to address your edit :p )
Their education is not at risk.  They should not have made this decision without planning for the worst, paying for their education.
I hope so. I really feel bad for the kids who get cast-off in this process.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2015, 11:21:36 am »

I get what you're saying, but you have to think long term. For a lot of these kids, this is their shot at an education and a better life. Besides, you can hope to transfer after you've proven yourself.

(edit to address your edit :p )I hope so. I really feel bad for the kids who get cast-off in this process.

They made a decision and a choice.  I understand what you are saying and can see that side of things.  But you make a decision with ample enough time and free resources to research it. 
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STLhawg

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2015, 11:27:02 am »

First post?  Welcome aboard.
Thanks!  I am a long-time poster on 'The Hill' forum over at Rivals (and even before that back when a guy named Booth was running the board), but that place seems to be drying up so I finally bit the bullet and registered here.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #105 on: February 05, 2015, 11:31:33 am »

It is a way for them to take a marginal prospect that they don't want to risk a scholarship spot on from this class on, and if the kid doesn't work out then I am sure he will be phased out by this time next year and they can try again without impacting current class numbers.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. It's a way for them to take guys they reallly want but would otherwise not be able to get due to te 25 limit.  They just don't do any in home visits or take an official visit.  Then the show up for school day 1, get put on scholarship, never have to pay a penny and count toward the next year
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #106 on: February 05, 2015, 11:36:34 am »

Are we doing the same thing with Phillips and Reid?
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #107 on: February 05, 2015, 11:41:07 am »

Are we doing the same thing with Phillips and Reid?

No. Preferred walk on means you pay own way and when a schollie comes available at some unknown point then you'll likey get it.

Gray shirt means you pay your own way for a semester then get put on schollie second semester. Counts toward following year.

Blue shirt means you get a scholarship day 1, never paying anything out of pocket but you can't take official visits or have in homes with coaches.  Counts toward following year.
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WriterWrong

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2015, 11:43:16 am »

They aren't promised a scholarship, where as now yes reed owns that scholarship against the 25 for 2 years, no matter what, even if he can't enrol.  From my understanding.

Also, does ANYONE really believe these kids and their parents weren't visited and this planned laid out?

I could be wrong, but the way I see it as when the kids do show up, they are given a scholarship and that scholarship is gone from the next years class no matter what. Once the scholarship is given, there's no getting it back.

It's just awarding the scholarship at a later time, allowing them to count towards the next year's class, even though they're with the team the entire time.
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bigdaddyhawg

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Re: signing more than 25
« Reply #109 on: February 05, 2015, 11:43:53 am »

APR and yes it could down the road.

THANK YOU!!  That's been bugging me, and I tried my best to find it. 

Honestly, I really hope it bites that bunch of loopholes in the rear.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #110 on: February 05, 2015, 11:47:27 am »

I could be wrong, but the way I see it as when the kids do show up, they are given a scholarship and that scholarship is gone from the next years class no matter what. Once the scholarship is given, there's no getting it back.

It's just awarding the scholarship at a later time, allowing them to count towards the next year's class, even though they're with the team the entire time.

You're correct except schollies have been on a year to year basis so it could be taken away the next year. However, now they are going to have to be 4 year schollies so once it's given, it's good for all 4 years. 

However, a coach could tell a kid "you'll never play here" and the kid would likely leave reopening that scholarship.  The kid could say "that's fine, I'll stay on the team all four years anyway to keep my scholarship". The coach could then easily make the kids life miserable to the point he changed his kind and left later on.
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nationwish

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Re: signing more than 25
« Reply #111 on: February 05, 2015, 11:49:38 am »

http://www.tennessean.com/story/sports/columnist/david-climer/2015/01/25/college-football-recruiting-national-signing-day/22328301/


Point of order: By rule, the 25-player maximum does not take effect until the start of preseason practice. If you can figure out a way to get your list of newcomers down to 25 by then, you're in compliance.

There are many ways to massage the numbers. Take UT's 2014 recruiting class, for example. On signing day last year, Vols coach Butch Jones explained that he was counting some of the signees, who already were enrolled in school, against the previous year's class, which had totaled 21.  By the time UT started preseason practice, the Vols were under the wire.

See, this is why there is so much confusion. We were all told that the limit was on signing players, which this article says it isn't. So in the case of Reed this year, if he were to not qualify academically, he wouldn't count against Arkansas's 25 signature limit since he wouldn't be with the team during the preseason. This type of case was explicitly used as an example of what WOULD count against the 25 by dozens of people on here. So clearly the distinction of what counts when is something that there is still a lot of confusion.
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Choctaw Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #112 on: February 05, 2015, 11:52:36 am »

http://www.knoxnews.com/govolsxtra/football/southdoyles-joc-bruce-says-he-will-blueshirt-at-tennessee_99441053
I didn't see this talked about here.
"Blueshirting means that the player must arrive at school as a walk-on having not taken an official visit to campus, having not received an in-home visit from the coaching staff and having not signed a letter of intent or any promise of academic aid. The player could be granted a scholarship once preseason practice begins and not count against that class."

Seems Tennessee is using a loophole to sign so many kids.

That will come back to bite them in the ass one of these days.
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WriterWrong

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #113 on: February 05, 2015, 11:52:56 am »

You're correct except schollies have been on a year to year basis so it could be taken away the next year. However, now they are going to have to be 4 year schollies so once it's given, it's good for all 4 years. 

However, a coach could tell a kid "you'll never play here" and the kid would likely leave reopening that scholarship.  The kid could say "that's fine, I'll stay on the team all four years anyway to keep my scholarship". The coach could then easily make the kids life miserable to the point he changed his kind and left later on.

Even if a kid chooses to transfer, doesn't that scholarship just open up against the total 85? I don't think it reopens a spot in the recruiting class it was originally counting against.
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DoctorSusscrofa

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #114 on: February 05, 2015, 11:53:13 am »

They aren't promised a scholarship, where as now yes reed owns that scholarship against the 25 for 2 years, no matter what, even if he can't enrol.  From my understanding.

Also, does ANYONE really believe these kids and their parents weren't visited and this planned laid out?

I suppose the kid and parents would be allowed an "unofficial" visit and still be eligible for blue shirt. They just can't get an in home and official visit.
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onebadrubi

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #115 on: February 05, 2015, 11:54:31 am »

Even if a kid chooses to transfer, doesn't that scholarship just open up against the total 85? I don't think it reopens a spot in the recruiting class it was originally counting against.

I'm pretty sure that if a freshman transfers out you can't recruit a kid to fill it the next year and count it against that previous class (for instances a Early Enrollee). 
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #116 on: February 05, 2015, 11:54:42 am »

Even if a kid chooses to transfer, doesn't that scholarship just open up against the total 85? I don't think it reopens a spot in the recruiting class it was originally counting against.

That's  also correct. 
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #117 on: February 05, 2015, 11:55:12 am »

I suppose the kid and parents would be allowed an "unofficial" visit and still be eligible for blue shirt. They just can't get an in home and official visit.

Correct
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #118 on: February 05, 2015, 12:08:29 pm »

Correct

Don't both Reid and Phillips meet this requirement?
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redeye

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #119 on: February 05, 2015, 12:11:49 pm »

What I also wonder is why recruiting services count theses kids for schools like UT (and USCe) but they don't count Arkansas' 3* walk-ons.  It seems like they favoring the other schools to help their recruiting score out.  Just more proof these recruiting rankings are far from exact and should be taken with a grain of salt!

If they're counting them toward UT's 2015 class, that is strange, but it probably doesn't help their class score much.  Most services won't count back to include Josh Allen, who's an actual 2015 signee, but they'll count forward to include UT's expected 2016 signees?

Does anyone have an idea on how Tenn is able to sign the following:

2013    22 recruits
2014    31 recruits
2015    29 recruits

And still claim they are not over-signing.

In addition to things like blueshirting being discussed here, Tennessee has had an awful attrition rate over the past few years.  Think they barely had enough players to field a team one year.

I agree that blueshirting seems like a way for them to scout players a little further, before deciding whether to offer.  If they actually offer all those players, then I think they're making a mistake, because with the way they're recruiting now, it's like trading 4-stars for 3-stars for their 2016 class.  I bet they don't get offered, unless they're truly special players.

P.S. to Tiredofhogssucking:  Pathetic nickname for a fan, but great for a troll.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2015, 12:37:09 pm by redeye »
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Oklahawg

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Re: signing more than 25
« Reply #120 on: February 05, 2015, 12:16:57 pm »

USC-W did this also.

It is a roll of the dice - that getting an under-recruited (and by you, basically non-recruited) athlete whose value is they gain a season in the program vs waiting for a talent the next year.

This is for programs that need bodies now and will worry about the consequences later.

I bet this practice gets shut down soon.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #121 on: February 05, 2015, 12:19:02 pm »

Don't both Reid and Phillips meet this requirement?

They would meet the requirement but that's not what they're doing.  They are just preferred walkons.
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #122 on: February 05, 2015, 12:21:38 pm »

They would meet the requirement but that's not what they're doing.  They are just preferred walkons.

Ok, but it is possible that they impress CBB hand he gives them a Schollie this year and it doesn't take a future spot correct in the 25. Is this correct?
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nationwish

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #123 on: February 05, 2015, 12:26:45 pm »

Ok, but it is possible that they impress CBB hand he gives them a Schollie this year and it doesn't take a future spot correct in the 25. Is this correct?

If he wanted he could give one a scholarship right now and count it against this year's 25. If he were to give them one after the semester, it would count against next year's class. If they were to be on campus for two years before getting a scholarship, then it would only count against the 85 limit, and would not affect the 25 initial players for any year.
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #124 on: February 05, 2015, 12:33:17 pm »

If he wanted he could give one a scholarship right now and count it against this year's 25. If he were to give them one after the semester, it would count against next year's class. If they were to be on campus for two years before getting a scholarship, then it would only count against the 85 limit, and would not affect the 25 initial players for any year.

UT is giving the Schollies first year and it isn't taking away from any class by blueshirting. And these 2 kids meet the Blueshirt requirements.
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nationwish

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Re: signing more than 25
« Reply #125 on: February 05, 2015, 12:34:50 pm »

One of the reasons everyone thought this rule applied to actual signings and not scholarships at the beginning of preseason practice is that coaches oversigned, then cut players who had signed and thought they had scholarships. Only limiting the signings after the fact does nothing to change that. You will still have players cut after the winter or summer semesters.

Maybe four year scholarships will help with that somewhat, but I still think the rule was meant to apply to actual signings, not strictly 25 new entrants at the beginning of practice. In fact, everything I have seen until reading this article seemed to say this was the case, so I am inclined to believe the writer's understanding is flawed.
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STLhawg

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #126 on: February 05, 2015, 12:35:46 pm »

If they're counting them toward UT's 2015 class, that is strange, but it probably doesn't help their class score much.  Most services won't count back to include Josh Allen, who's an actual 2015 signee, but they'll count forward to include UT's expected 2016 signees?
Well those two blueshirts are being included in the 2015 class for UT -- at least on 247sports.  And yet the same website isn't counting Josh Allen or any of our 3* walk-ons as part of our 2015 class. Shenanigans I tell ya...
 
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Hog1952

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #127 on: February 05, 2015, 12:46:20 pm »

Sounds like bull shirting to me.
^^I like^^ +1
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colbs

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2015, 01:01:41 pm »

I think I read somewhere that 7 4* from last year's class is transferring from Tennessee.  I wouldn't be surprised if all of this came back to bite them.  Especially if they don't start winning big In the next couple of years.
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jbcarol

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Re: Wonder how Tenner is making the numbers work?...
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2015, 09:38:27 pm »

Jimmy Hyams @JimmyHyams    Feb 4
Vols signed 29 today. 4 will blueshirt, including Joc Bruce and Vincent Perry. Other 2 not yet identified but likely in-state players.

Vols can release signees who plan to blueshirt if they've already been admitted to UT. Can't release names if they haven't been admitted yet
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texas tush hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2015, 10:46:41 pm »

Don't both Reid and Phillips meet this requirement?

No, Reid is on scholarship now, Phillips is a walk-on, now. Totally different animal.
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OnTheHillHogFan

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2015, 10:50:14 pm »

No, Reid is on scholarship now, Phillips is a walk-on, now. Totally different animal.
Reid is a walkon
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HOGINTENNESSEE

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2015, 11:09:26 pm »

No, Reid is on scholarship now, Phillips is a walk-on, now. Totally different animal.

http://www.wholehogsports.com/news/2015/jan/07/wednesday/?f=recruiting

Reid is a walk on and both meet the BlueShirt requirements. If CBB chooses to go that route.
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31to6

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2015, 02:42:08 am »

I don't understand why any kid would do this. I mean, if you're good enough to be looked at by Tenner, then you're probably good enough to start at a non-power five or a D2 school with a scholarship.
- Parents might be loaded boosters and the first year (or perhaps the first semester) is no big deal.

- Kid might be in-state at a place where the in-state tuition is low or free.

- Kid might have the academics to get a scholarship if the football thing doesn't pan out.

- Kid might have dreamed their whole life of being a Vol and willing to risk it to give it a shot--knowing that they can probably transfer and play at a lesser school if they don't make the cut.

We have 3, 3-star walk-ons in this class to whom the same reasoning applies. All 3 had offers from other schools. All 3 clearly want to be Hogs.
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TheRazorbackGuy

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2015, 02:44:26 am »

- Parents might be loaded boosters and the first year (or perhaps the first semester) is no big deal.

- Kid might be in-state at a place where the in-state tuition is low or free.

- Kid might have the academics to get a scholarship if the football thing doesn't pan out.

- Kid might have dreamed their whole life of being a Vol and willing to risk it to give it a shot--knowing that they can probably transfer and play at a lesser school if they don't make the cut.

We have 3, 3-star walk-ons in this class to whom the same reasoning applies. All 3 had offers from other schools. All 3 clearly want to be Hogs.

Rocky Top Tenne$$ee.... Top DT in California goes to Tenne$$ee. Yeah right....
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31to6

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2015, 02:45:19 am »

Rocky Top Tenne$$ee.... Top DT in California goes to Tenne$$ee. Yeah right....
Or that :P
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31to6

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #136 on: February 06, 2015, 02:54:31 am »

Rocky Top Tenne$$ee.... Top DT in California goes to Tenne$$ee. Yeah right....
To be specific, I was not talking about their class, just the two "blue shirts".

Both, btw, are in-state 3-* guys.

I do prefer the up-front invited walk-on status of our guys rather than this shady blueshirt deal.

"Never visited campus", "No in-home visit".

Well, officially, but don't tell me that a kid who lives in Knoxville wasn't on campus a ton unofficially and talking to the coaches a ton.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #137 on: February 06, 2015, 06:02:51 am »

Rocky Top Tenne$$ee.... Top DT in California goes to Tenne$$ee. Yeah right....

His dad played at Tennessee and is the current GM of the Oakland Raiders, which is why they live in California.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #138 on: February 06, 2015, 06:50:08 am »

To be specific, I was not talking about their class, just the two "blue shirts".

Both, btw, are in-state 3-* guys.

I do prefer the up-front invited walk-on status of our guys rather than this shady blueshirt deal.

"Never visited campus", "No in-home visit".

Well, officially, but don't tell me that a kid who lives in Knoxville wasn't on campus a ton unofficially and talking to the coaches a ton.

You're allowed to take unofficial visits.
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TheRazorbackGuy

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #139 on: February 06, 2015, 09:15:21 am »

His dad played at Tennessee and is the current GM of the Oakland Raiders, which is why they live in California.


I still don't buy Tenner being legit on this recruiting class. 4 different coaches in 7 years and all of the sudden have a top 5 recruiting class. What has Butch Jones ever won?
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kaki

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #140 on: February 06, 2015, 10:21:49 am »

If they had blue shirts at UT last year, then it should have reduced the numbers for this year, so either none of the 31 last year were blue shirts, or something else factored in to the 31. 
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rhog1

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #141 on: February 06, 2015, 10:29:54 am »

If they had blue shirts at UT last year, then it should have reduced the numbers for this year, so either none of the 31 last year were blue shirts, or something else factored in to the 31. 
They had a lot of players decide to leave the program. That takes their actual number down from the 85 total allowed. They can take as many blueshirts as they want as long as they stay under 85. If they keep blueshirting for too many years the scholarship numbers will catch up to them though.
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hogman64

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #142 on: February 06, 2015, 10:44:16 am »

If it is such a great idea, why isn't anyone else doing it?...
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kaki

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #143 on: February 06, 2015, 10:46:20 am »

They had a lot of players decide to leave the program. That takes their actual number down from the 85 total allowed. They can take as many blueshirts as they want as long as they stay under 85. If they keep blueshirting for too many years the scholarship numbers will catch up to them though.
If the information presented about blue shirts is accurate, they still impact the 25 limit, unless they have more 4 blue shirts this time, which I think they said they have 2 then the math does not work.  I understand the transfer/defections count against the 85, but they do not count against the 25.  Further if you give a walk-on a scholarship within the first two years, it is my understanding that is also factored in to the 25 limitation to prevent using the walk-on process from being a vehicle to circumvent the 25 limit. 
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rhog1

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #144 on: February 06, 2015, 10:55:46 am »

Blueshirts are counted against the 25 limit for the next class. I think the theory here is to bring in all the guys they want that can help them win now and worry about recruiting smaller classes sometime in the future.
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RedRock

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #145 on: February 06, 2015, 11:00:46 am »

get ready for another rule change
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #146 on: February 06, 2015, 11:02:12 am »

They had a lot of players decide to leave the program. That takes their actual number down from the 85 total allowed. They can take as many blueshirts as they want as long as they stay under 85. If they keep blueshirting for too many years the scholarship numbers will catch up to them though.

Thy counted like 6 back two years ago because their class three years ago was small.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #147 on: February 06, 2015, 11:03:04 am »

If the information presented about blue shirts is accurate, they still impact the 25 limit, unless they have more 4 blue shirts this time, which I think they said they have 2 then the math does not work.  I understand the transfer/defections count against the 85, but they do not count against the 25.  Further if you give a walk-on a scholarship within the first two years, it is my understanding that is also factored in to the 25 limitation to prevent using the walk-on process from being a vehicle to circumvent the 25 limit.

In theory, you can just borrow against the next class forever this way.
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Music City Hog

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #148 on: February 06, 2015, 11:04:25 am »


I still don't buy Tenner being legit on this recruiting class. 4 different coaches in 7 years and all of the sudden have a top 5 recruiting class. What has Butch Jones ever won?

Their coaches are the best marketing and recruiting staff I have ever seen.  They havent shown they can coach yet.  Jury is still out on that one.
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31to6

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Re: Tennessee Blueshirting
« Reply #149 on: February 06, 2015, 11:31:29 am »

You're allowed to take unofficial visits.
I never said you weren't. Just saying that it is pretty disingenuous to put that info out about the 2 "blue shirts" when you know they both were in and around the program MORE than some of the out-of-state kids who got schollies and official visits.

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