We will continue to be a very average team until we can beat a zone.

[hogfankb]

Pelphrey's offense against the zone is terrible. Why we constantly screen the top of the key I have no idea. Screening a zone is great but the place we set 75% of our screens is the one place where it does no good. I know everyone is going to get on me about how it is early in the season, we won, wait till he gets his players here but I have seen no improvement from the first game to the one today.

  X|X
X  X  X

We constantly screen where the pipe is. There is absolutely no reason to screen there. All it does is allow the other defensive guard to pick up the ball. We don't use the high post hardly at all.

Don't get me wrong this isn't a "Fire Pelphrey" thread or anything. And I hate being negative this early in his career but everyone has faults and need to learn from them. I have no doubt he will get better as a coach but I would have thought he would have figured something new out by now. I just don't see the drastic improvement everyone has been clamoring about.

[Hollywood_HOGan45]

we beat a team that beat us by 22 last year.

[hogfankb]

we beat a team that beat us by 22 last year.

At home. With a years more experience. We hadn't seen an defense like 40 minutes of hell until that game last year. We only turned the ball over 1 more time last year than we did this year. Missouri is not much of a zone defensive team which is what this thread is about. We also lost to a Providence team that we were much more talented than but we couldn't figure out their zone.

Pelphrey does have this team in MUCH better shape than last years team which lead to the snowball affect of the Missouri game last year. He has also greatly improved our transition defense.

Again I'm not saying Pelphrey is a bad coach. I'm extremely happy about our win today. I think he is an upgrade over Heath at this point. But the whole point of preseason basketball is to improve on your weaknesses and I'm not really seeing it with our zone offense.

[hogfankb]

It doesn't help that our guards dribble the air out of the ball at the top of the key against a zone. If it wasn't a reoccuring them then I would say it is something that pelphrey is trying to break them of. But it really does seem like it is our set offense against a zone.

[slopinhogs]

he will watch the film and make corrections along the way sit back and enjoy the ride. :razorback:

WPS

[hogfankb]

he will watch the film and make corrections along the way sit back and enjoy the ride. :razorback:

WPS

I hope so. It just makes me nervous that this has been happening since the beginning of the year. I'm beginning to think that is what Pelphrey is coaching them to do.

[slopinhogs]

what's the mater with Hunter? didn't hear his name calkled today. :razorback:

[hogfankb]

what's the mater with Hunter? didn't hear his name calkled today. :razorback:

He actually started. Missed a jumper. Made a pretty decent defensive play. Then took a nap on the pine. He just doesn't have the ball skills to get much PT. He plays hard. Can get you garbage buckets and some defensive rebounds. But he just can't hold on to the  ball. Atleast a guy like Britt who isn't a scoring option right now takes care of the ball. Hunter will get an offensive rebound and then kick it out of bounds.

[ballinhog]

We will not be great against the zone until we get a true point guard

[hogfankb]

We will not be great against the zone until we get a true point guard

That never hurts but that is what has me worried. I'm not sure that a very good point guard will help that much. It will help against the man and in transition but I can't think of a way a PG will help that much. Normally a good PG can penetrate a zone to help collapse it but I'm not sure that will be available in the current system. I do think having a guy like Clarke to stretch the zone and open up driving lanes but it isn't like Bev and Welsh are bad shooters that you can help off of.

[TorsinAHog]

They havent been able to do it for the past 3 years. No reason to think these players can accomplish it now.  We need new players to run his offense.

[chiefsfan]

That never hurts but that is what has me worried. I'm not sure that a very good point guard will help that much. It will help against the man and in transition but I can't think of a way a PG will help that much. Normally a good PG can penetrate a zone to help collapse it but I'm not sure that will be available in the current system. I do think having a guy like Clarke to stretch the zone and open up driving lanes but it isn't like Bev and Welsh are bad shooters that you can help off of.

In order to beat a zone, you need a true point guard and a good 3 point shooter...  we have neither

next year, we will have both.   We have discovered quickly that this team just isnt that talented...   

[SPAL]

i dont think we have the PG or a shooter...and in order to beat a zone, u MUST have both.

[Smithian]

I was thinking about that problem, myself.

I was thinking/hoping we had some zone offense plays we're saving until conference, which is a possibility.

[hogfankb]

I was thinking about that problem, myself.

I was thinking/hoping we had some zone offense plays we're saving until conference, which is a possibility.

That is a possibility but I would think he would have broken those out against Providence when we were getting absolutely shut down by there zone.

I would feel a lot better if Pelphrey was noticing the problem. Has anyone seen him comment about our zone offense? I hear a lot of complaints about the turnovers, which is obviously a problem, but I still think most of our turnovers come from trying to figure out opposing zones.

[40MINSOFHELL]

Pelphrey's offense against the zone is terrible. Why we constantly screen the top of the key I have no idea. Screening a zone is great but the place we set 75% of our screens is the one place where it does no good. I know everyone is going to get on me about how it is early in the season, we won, wait till he gets his players here but I have seen no improvement from the first game to the one today.

  X|X
X  X  X

We constantly screen where the pipe is. There is absolutely no reason to screen there. All it does is allow the other defensive guard to pick up the ball. We don't use the high post hardly at all.

Don't get me wrong this isn't a "Fire Pelphrey" thread or anything. And I hate being negative this early in his career but everyone has faults and need to learn from them. I have no doubt he will get better as a coach but I would have thought he would have figured something new out by now. I just don't see the drastic improvement everyone has been clamoring about.

you must be a nutt hugger because thats something that kind of person would say or ur depressed he is gone lol

[40MINSOFHELL]

and have u played real basketball in ur life or r u just going off at the head?

[blacksuit]

That is a possibility but I would think he would have broken those out against Providence when we were getting absolutely shut down by there zone.

I would feel a lot better if Pelphrey was noticing the problem. Has anyone seen him comment about our zone offense? I hear a lot of complaints about the turnovers, which is obviously a problem, but I still think most of our turnovers come from trying to figure out opposing zones.

I haven't noticed him talking about it. He talks more about conditioning, attitude, those kinds of things. I think he's a good coach though, and it stands to reason that he's aware of the problem. I've only watched one game this year (out of state), so I can't really comment on how I've seen the team play against a zone.

It can't be any worse than it was in years past. Remember when teams would be down 25-15 10 mins into the first half, and they'd switch to a zone, and we'd go scoreless for 7-8 mins? Just like flipping a switch. You're quite right that this is one area where we MUST get better or our SEC record won't be any better than it was with Heath.

[hogfankb]

you must be a nutt hugger because thats something that kind of person would say or ur depressed he is gone lol

Nope. I wanted nutt gone several years ago. I really don't care to much about football and what does he have to do with basketball?

and have u played real basketball in ur life or r u just going off at the head?

Yeah. All the way through high school. I also come from 2 generations of coaches.

If I am wrong or you disagree then tell me why. All of your responses to any of these threads are how great coach Pelphrey, how good we "will" be or how great the half time adjustments were. Give some examples. Lets get some discussion going with actual strategy or stats to back them up.

[hogfankb]

I haven't noticed him talking about it. He talks more about conditioning, attitude, those kinds of things. I think he's a good coach though, and it stands to reason that he's aware of the problem. I've only watched one game this year (out of state), so I can't really comment on how I've seen the team play against a zone.

It can't be any worse than it was in years past. Remember when teams would be down 25-15 10 mins into the first half, and they'd switch to a zone, and we'd go scoreless for 7-8 mins? Just like flipping a switch. You're quite right that this is one area where we MUST get better or our SEC record won't be any better than it was with Heath.

I've noticed the conditioning and "heart" comments too and I think they were probably the biggest problem we had under Heath. I just think getting a really solid zone offense is crucial to going ot the next level. With our size inside we are going to see A LOT of zone with year especially if we can't prove we can beat it. What I hope he is doing is focusing on the heart and conditioning early in the season because they are where everything begins. And once he knows he is going to get 100% from every player he can begin focusing on the sets and his system.

[dmac4sainthood]

There is nothing wrong with ball screening the zone, if you aggressivly penetrate and kick...

[hogfankb]

There is nothing wrong with ball screening the zone, if you aggressivly penetrate and kick...

My problem isn't screening a zone. I know screening a zone is a great idea. But where we are screening isn't giving our guards an option. As soon as we screen the ball handler is run into the other defender at the top of the zone.

It could be as easy as screening the other side of guy they are currently screening but for some reason we NEVER do that.

[blacksuit]

My problem isn't screening a zone. I know screening a zone is a great idea. But where we are screening isn't giving our guards an option. As soon as we screen the ball handler is run into the other defender at the top of the zone.

It could be as easy as screening the other side of guy they are currently screening but for some reason we NEVER do that.

So:

  |X X
X X X

instead of your diagram above? I'm not much for hoops X's and O's, but I think I see your point.

[Rayzback]

He's probably seen a few game films of the past 5+ years and is aware of our inability to execute well against the zone.  I think the team has the work ethic and talent, but is lacking on that final four chemistry side of things.  I'm sure Pelphrey's on top of that as well.

[chiefsfan]

Lets look at it this way.   we dont have the type of players here to attack a zone, and there isnt much we can do about it

We have 4 guys on our team 6 foot 10 or taller...and we have 4 guards on our team, none of which are either a true point guard, or a true outside shooter.    The object of a zone defense is to pack it in down low to neutralize the Bigs, and forcing a team to shoot from the outside

Weems isnt shooting well this year from the outside, so our one outside/inside threat is gone.  Beverly is our best shooter, but he also likes to drive.   Our point guard, Ervin has a nice habbit of driving inside and trying to take shots over 7 footers.   We can set a screen, but what do we get out of it.  Our bigs are the only ones who can really set screens because of our lack of guard numbers, and they cant roll to the basket against a zone becasue that is heading into its strength

In order to attack the zone you need a crisp passing attack, a true point guard that can drive inside and draw everybody in...and then can be able to dish it out succesfully to a good outside shooter who can knock an outside shot consistantly, or if not open can swing it around to another player who is a good inside outside threat and is quick enough to either drive farther in and beat the zone, or pop one from the outside.   That player is supposed to be Weems, but he has a ton of turnovers and cant shoot the 3 this year  which doesnt help.

Pelphrey complains about turnovers, because turnovers ruin any good scheme against a zone.  hard to tell whether or not we actually lost to Providence's Zone, or rather because we couldnt hold on to the basketball

Now in 8 years of coaching, I can tell you that the easiest defense I have ever had the pleasure of attacking is a 1-3-1 Zone.   Ironically, in the last few years, its the only zone defense the hogs had any success against.  (See West Virginia game last year)

I dont prefer to run a zone offense to beat the 2-3 zone.  Id much rather run a crisp passing offense, with a point guard that can drive to the basket, and has good vision to make the critical pass.   Without a point guard though, that type offense is near impossible

[hogfankb]

So:

  |X X
X X X

instead of your diagram above? I'm not much for hoops X's and O's, but I think I see your point.

This is what I would suggest if I was a coach. This causes the baseline player to step up and stop the ball which leaves the the corner open. As always your spacing has got to be good but if it is executed the post has got to step out to guard the corner or it is an open look. From there the zone is constantly having to rotate and play catch up to your ball movement which creates favorable matchups.

Lets look at it this way.   we dont have the type of players here to attack a zone, and there isnt much we can do about it

We have 4 guys on our team 6 foot 10 or taller...and we have 4 guards on our team, none of which are either a true point guard, or a true outside shooter.    The object of a zone defense is to pack it in down low to neutralize the Bigs, and forcing a team to shoot from the outside

Weems isnt shooting well this year from the outside, so our one outside/inside threat is gone.  Beverly is our best shooter, but he also likes to drive.   Our point guard, Ervin has a nice habbit of driving inside and trying to take shots over 7 footers.   We can set a screen, but what do we get out of it.  Our bigs are the only ones who can really set screens because of our lack of guard numbers, and they cant roll to the basket against a zone becasue that is heading into its strength

In order to attack the zone you need a crisp passing attack, a true point guard that can drive inside and draw everybody in...and then can be able to dish it out succesfully to a good outside shooter who can knock an outside shot consistantly, or if not open can swing it around to another player who is a good inside outside threat and is quick enough to either drive farther in and beat the zone, or pop one from the outside.   That player is supposed to be Weems, but he has a ton of turnovers and cant shoot the 3 this year  which doesnt help.

Pelphrey complains about turnovers, because turnovers ruin any good scheme against a zone.  hard to tell whether or not we actually lost to Providence's Zone, or rather because we couldnt hold on to the basketball

Now in 8 years of coaching, I can tell you that the easiest defense I have ever had the pleasure of attacking is a 1-3-1 Zone.   Ironically, in the last few years, its the only zone defense the hogs had any success against.  (See West Virginia game last year)

I dont prefer to run a zone offense to beat the 2-3 zone.  Id much rather run a crisp passing offense, with a point guard that can drive to the basket, and has good vision to make the critical pass.   Without a point guard though, that type offense is near impossible

I completely agree with you. It really is amazing that Ervin is the only person on this team that can attack the gaps in a zone with penetration and it is a toss up if he will make the right decision once he gets there. Like you said. Ball movement is the key but just passing the ball around the perimeter is not good ball movement. You've got to attack and look for skip passes and dump offs.

It is interesting you say the easiest defense you can attack is a 1-3-1. I find that interesting because that(1-3-1 matchup) is what we ran with some pretty good success in high school and if executed I think it is probably the toughest defense to crack. But that conversation is for a different thread on a different day.