I'm thinking it so I might as well post it. (Townes needs to start)

[TRUHOG718]

This is my rundown following the Red/White and 2 Exhibition Games.

Starting 5

Townes (Most Improved Player, not last years Townes, deserves to start)

Thomas (The Glue, Slimmed down, goes hard every possesion, not great numbers but great chemistry)

Weems(defense looked very very good, hes worked on his 3 point shot)

Beverley (Wow, If not for foul trouble all game would have had 30+, scored at will...................Ramar Smith WHO?)

Ervin (looked Very Good) (took care of the rock, didn't over penetrate like last year, played as a pass first score second pg)

2nd Team in order of substitution (barring foul trouble)

Washington (I love his game and confidence, could start but following my review if Townes starts we need firepower off the bench (especially when Hill subs for Townes)

Welsh (will split between pg and sg, much improved, i confident in his ability to run this team)

Hill (disappointed me, had a few bocks, was unable to get position all game on a 6'8 NAIA player, just didn't seem to have made any improvement)

Patsia (will split between sf and sg, GREAT PASSER, plays great D, can hit the 3, needs to give it up on the break earlier but really looked confident out there)


Everyone else except the walk on gets limited minutes here and there (including Hunter).

[oldfart]

thanks for your analysis....  i agree pretty much with your choices altho i see welch creeping in and replacing ervin before SEC play starts...

[Hollywood_HOGan45]

still see that hunter is still well.....

hunter

didnt like the way he mouthed off after coach heath left. he thinks he's way better than the actually is.

I still like Steven Hill. He will erase some easy baskets from  the other team.

Hill will be fine.

[Beaverfever]

I agree with everything you said.  Townes is a serious post scoring threat.  Hill just isn't and I'm starting to think he probably won't be.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

I'm telling you all, Hill is not a gamer and I think he will struggle even more in this offense because he just doesn't hustle.

If Townes has his head on straight finally, then I agree, start him.

[slopinhogs]

it will detrermine who you waNT TO SIT IF HE STARTS Hill ot Thomas. :razorback:

[Hollywood_HOGan45]

I'm telling you all, Hill is not a gamer and I think he will struggle even more in this offense because he just doesn't hustle.

If Townes has his head on straight finally, then I agree, start him.

hill doesnt hustle?

gosh spare me.



some people just dont realize how valuable a shot blocker like that is in college ball.

yeah SEC defensive player of the year? He must really suck and never hustle.
Definitley not a gamer.

those idiots who voted him SEC defensive player of the year dont know crap.

[mbgrulz]

some people were expecting to see hill come out and be an offensive threat. DID YOU NOT WATCH HIM FOR THE FIRST 3 YEARS HE WAS HERE? he is not an offensively skilled player. that is not something that you just pick up. you are born with a lot of that stuff, and the rest is honed in your driveway when you are 8 years old. a new coach is not going to totally change a player's skill set.

that said, coaches know what hill is going to give them. tons of length, good defensive presence, and 6-8 ppg.

hill is a very important member of this team, and to say that he or townes should start over one or the other is just like asking who will start at reciever. it doesn't matter b/c both will play lots of minutes.

[Hogginitall]

I'm telling you all, Hill is not a gamer and I think he will struggle even more in this offense because he just doesn't hustle.

If Townes has his head on straight finally, then I agree, start him.

hill doesnt hustle?

gosh spare me.



some people just dont realize how valuable a shot blocker like that is in college ball.

yeah SEC defensive player of the year? He must really suck and never hustle.
Definitley not a gamer.

those idiots who voted him SEC defensive player of the year dont know crap.

That's what I was thinking.  Hill hustled probably more than any other player on our team last year and I didn't see any different in the 1st exhibition game (although he didn't play a whole lot).  Surely he was talking about Townes???

[Knot2brite]

8ppg 6.5 rpg 3.5 blocks per game is a good year for Hill. Pel is going to play him because of what he can do on the defensive side of the game and the hustle baskets that he will get. I am not convinced Townes will stay out of Pel's doghouse this year.

[GRIMMHOG]

I still think you have to go with Hill. Hill doesn't need to score to be effective.

[Boarcephus]

I still think you have to go with Hill. Hill doesn't need to score to be effective.

Hill may not add that many points on our side of the scoreboard but he certainly keeps a bunch off the opponents side as well.   Townes adds offense Hill can't touch but Hill adds defense Townes can't touch.  Wish we could play an offensive and defensive side like they used to go in girls bb.   

One thing I noticed about Patsia, 9 minutes, 6 boards. 

[dotnet]

I think this is a really interesting topic that should at least be considered. 

It would take someone charting a few games, but I wonder who has more value.  Meaning I wonder if the amount of points that Hill scores, erases, and prevents by his presence is equal or greater than Townes?

I really like Hill starting.  I think there is something to be said for winning the tip off to start every game.  Then, Hill really can really help set the defensive tone for the entire game.  It doesn't really matter who starts in a basketball game (especially in our style) and I feel like its better to start a game setting a strong defensive tone. 

Notshavin is still bent out of shape because he thought Mccurdy was going to be the next Jason Kidd.

[The_Iceman]

I like Hill starting because it seems like he blocks alot of shots early in the game. That is key because it keeps the other team from making a big run early. Then bring in Townes to extend the lead.

[TorsinAHog]

Townes is my most improved player so far. I was pretty critical of him last year on this board but he has really stepped it up with this new system.  Good for him and REALLY good for the team because he can score.

[Corkscrew Johnson]

Hill is going to be VITAL to the team this year, especially with full court pressure.  Quite often the press is going to get beat, and there is no better eraser in the college game that Steven Hill.  Period.

Contrary to belief, Hill's game probably fits better with Pel's style than Stan's.  Hill is not aggressive enough offensively to be a legitimate low post threat.  Most of his points come from running the floor well and being surprisingly coordinated enough to finish in transition.  Furthermore, even at 7 feet, he is not a natural rebounder.  If you can't get 10 boards a game in Stan's style, it just isn't going to happen.  Hill's strength is shot blocking...and now we have a defensive scheme that will funnel opponents right into this rejection machine.

[Corkscrew Johnson]

Townes is my most improved player so far. I was pretty critical of him last year on this board but he has really stepped it up with this new system.  Good for him and REALLY good for the team because he can score.

Townes has always been our most talented low-post player.  He has a natural feel around the basket, deceptive moves, and great touch.

His problems with discipline are well documented.  However, he also suffered from poor shot selection...which isn't entirely his fault.  He rarely got the ball in position to score the past few years, and if he ever kicked it back out, he would NEVER see it again.  Therefore, he was forced into being a black hole.  Hopefully with some good instruction, both to Townes and the guards, Townes should have a banner year. 

[Bomis Hawg]

Don't sleep on Welsh.  He'll fight for PT.

[PeytonManningSUCKS]

Pressing as much as we are we claim we will, having Hill back there swatting them if they break the press will be very valuable.  That said, Townes is a pretty good shot blocker himself. 

[Conway Cool Daddy]

The problem with Townes has always been his play on defense.
He is a very good shot blocker, hopefully he has worked on guarding his man in the post and blocking out on rebounds.

At times last year Hill was dominate in the paint. I don't see Pel sitting him for Townes unless our scoring is not what he expects. Townes is damn near unstoppable when he wants to score.

[Nutts and Bolts]

I am thinking that Washington needs LOTS of minutes...

[TRUHOG718]

I like Hill starting because it seems like he blocks alot of shots early in the game. That is key because it keeps the other team from making a big run early. Then bring in Townes to extend the lead.

As I see it we need to always have a low post threat down low (Townes or Washington). Washington is foul prone so let Townes start and when we sub sub Hill for Townes and Washington for Thomas. Now you still have the low post threat to run the offense effectively.

Thats how I'm looking at it. Its not as much about not wanting Hill to start it's more about keeping a low post threat on the floor at all times to increase productivity.

Noone will double team Thomas or Hill for the most part, and If we want to shoot threes having a big on the floor who can draw the double team defenitely helps free up the shooters.

[Razor8]

i wont try to decide who should start - I have full confidence that Coach Pel will play those who are hustling the most. I think Hill has the skill set to be an offensive player but he doesnt have the confidence or the mentality That is fine b/c he is such a defensive beast - Plus we are no where near seeing what this team can do. We have only played 2 games under a new system, wait til we get rolling we could be unstoppable.

I loved the fact coach Pel pulled all the staters only 90 seconds into the second half b/c of poor effort last night - shows me he is going to dictate how the team plays not the other way around.

WPS

[kibster]

As much subbing as Pel does, I do not think it matters who is starting.   Everyone is going to get plenty of minutes whether they start or not.

[SooiecidetillNuttgone]

I think this is a really interesting topic that should at least be considered. 

It's not that simple though.  A scorer can cause points to be scored without touching the ball.  If Townes became a mega-threat, the defense would have to shade towards him, making it easier for the rest of the team to score.

I know what you're saying, but subjectivity and the type of team/players you are going against on a particular night probably has more to do with who should be on the floor than any objective X mins. with Y player ='s  Z points.

[spudhog]

i also feel as though our frosh have got to step up when they can. you know we are going to have games where townes, hill and/or washington are going to be in foul trouble.

[thahawg]

Washington and Weems looked damn good in that full court press yesterday.

[TRUHOG718]

I was screaming for Hill to PUT YOUR BACK TO THE DEFENDER AND BACK UP! Maybe he will never be an offensive threat but it's frustrating as a fan to watch him bend down when posting up, thus making himself the same size or shorter than his defender.  It almost seems like he's nervous to bang on offense like he bangs on defense.  I just think he can be so much more effective than he is and I want to see him try harder.

[Beaverfever]

I was screaming for Hill to PUT YOUR BACK TO THE DEFENDER AND BACK UP! Maybe he will never be an offensive threat but it's frustrating as a fan to watch him bend down when posting up, thus making himself the same size or shorter than his defender.  It almost seems like he's nervous to bang on offense like he bangs on defense.  I just think he can be so much more effective than he is and I want to see him try harder.

It's very frustrating that as big as he is he still settles for low percentage shots and isn't in position to rebound.  I love how his big blocks really amp the team up.  He just needs to start bringing a little more to the table.  He is a worse rebounder and scorer than thomas, townes, and washington.  Townes could probably be first team all sec if he got his act together.  I say we see what he can do. 
IMO the minutes should go like this against wofford:
Townes 25/Hill 15
Wash 20/Thomas 20
Weems 32/Patsa+Hunter 8
Bev 33(I think he could play 40 in this style if he had to)/Patsa+Britt 7
Ervin 27/Welsh 13
These minutes assume the game is close.  Hopefully pat and sonny don't have to play those kind of minutes.

[TRUHOG718]

I was screaming for Hill to PUT YOUR BACK TO THE DEFENDER AND BACK UP! Maybe he will never be an offensive threat but it's frustrating as a fan to watch him bend down when posting up, thus making himself the same size or shorter than his defender.  It almost seems like he's nervous to bang on offense like he bangs on defense.  I just think he can be so much more effective than he is and I want to see him try harder.

It's very frustrating that as big as he is he still settles for low percentage shots and isn't in position to rebound.  I love how his big blocks really amp the team up.  He just needs to start bringing a little more to the table.  He is a worse rebounder and scorer than thomas, townes, and washington.  Townes could probably be first team all sec if he got his act together.  I say we see what he can do. 
IMO the minutes should go like this against wofford:
Townes 25/Hill 15
Wash 20/Thomas 20
Weems 32/Patsa+Hunter 8
Bev 33(I think he could play 40 in this style if he had to)/Patsa+Britt 7
Ervin 27/Welsh 13
These minutes assume the game is close.  Hopefully pat and sonny don't have to play those kind of minutes.

I gave you +1 because If i was tolling out minutes it would read exactly the same way.  Only difference I see Welsh playing more minutes split between the pg and the sg maybe somewhere in th 18 minute range and Hunter geting his 8 minutes mostly as here and there minutes at the 3 and the 4. Id bet patsa sees most minutes as the back up 3.

[Beaverfever]

I was screaming for Hill to PUT YOUR BACK TO THE DEFENDER AND BACK UP! Maybe he will never be an offensive threat but it's frustrating as a fan to watch him bend down when posting up, thus making himself the same size or shorter than his defender.  It almost seems like he's nervous to bang on offense like he bangs on defense.  I just think he can be so much more effective than he is and I want to see him try harder.

It's very frustrating that as big as he is he still settles for low percentage shots and isn't in position to rebound.  I love how his big blocks really amp the team up.  He just needs to start bringing a little more to the table.  He is a worse rebounder and scorer than thomas, townes, and washington.  Townes could probably be first team all sec if he got his act together.  I say we see what he can do. 
IMO the minutes should go like this against wofford:
Townes 25/Hill 15
Wash 20/Thomas 20
Weems 32/Patsa+Hunter 8
Bev 33(I think he could play 40 in this style if he had to)/Patsa+Britt 7
Ervin 27/Welsh 13
These minutes assume the game is close.  Hopefully pat and sonny don't have to play those kind of minutes.

I gave you +1 because If i was tolling out minutes it would read exactly the same way.  Only difference I see Welsh playing more minutes split between the pg and the sg maybe somewhere in th 18 minute range and Hunter geting his 8 minutes mostly as here and there minutes at the 3 and the 4. Id bet patsa sees most minutes as the back up 3.

I agree on the welsh thing I just get the feeling welsh might only play pg this year.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

BUMP.

So...Hill...2 points tonight?

Hmm.  Give me something, guys.  I still think I may be right...

[cmakrzrbak]

I think Townes is more comfortable coming off the bench right now.  He's said as much in the past. 

I do think he eventually needs to step up and be a starter and leader on this team, but it's working out pretty good right now.  He's scoring and staying out of foul trouble.  I'd up his minutes to around 27-30.

[Razorback Ranger]

BUMP.

So...Hill...2 points tonight?

Hmm.  Give me something, guys.  I still think I may be right...

I don't blame that all on Hill right now. There were at least 8-10 times when Hill was in the perfect position tonight to score and had a player with the ball in front of him that didn't pass the ball to him.

When he did see the ball, which was when he went and got the ball himself or was out of position, he was aggressive.

I think he understands what Pel wants him to do with the ball when he gets it but the guard needs to feed him the ball at the right time. The guards have not developed enough to know when to jam it inside, drive, or pass it around. Too often they pass it around or drive and ditch the ball off at the last minute to the big men when everyone has already collapsed around them.

Give Pel a few more games to teach these guys how to play basketball vice Heath Ball and Hill may start producing better numbers.

He does need a lot of work on getting position after the shot though to get the ball for a putback.



Just my 2 cents.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

I don't blame that all on Hill right now. There were at least 8-10 times when Hill was in the perfect position tonight to score and had a player with the ball in front of him that didn't pass the ball to him.

When he did see the ball, which was when he went and got the ball himself or was out of position, he was aggressive.

I think he understands what Pel wants him to do with the ball when he gets it but the guard needs to feed him the ball at the right time. The guards have not developed enough to know when to jam it inside, drive, or pass it around. Too often they pass it around or drive and ditch the ball off at the last minute to the big men when everyone has already collapsed around them.

Give Pel a few more games to teach these guys how to play basketball vice Heath Ball and Hill may start producing better numbers.

He does need a lot of work on getting position after the shot though to get the ball for a putback.



Just my 2 cents.

Good analysis.

I just think we've been hearing that he needs to improve for far too long.  I just don't think he has "it".  Hopefully Pel can work wonders, but I doubt it.  I hope he isn't taking away from someone on the bench who really could use the minutes to improve.

[PeytonManningSUCKS]

I don't blame that all on Hill right now. There were at least 8-10 times when Hill was in the perfect position tonight to score and had a player with the ball in front of him that didn't pass the ball to him.

When he did see the ball, which was when he went and got the ball himself or was out of position, he was aggressive.

I think he understands what Pel wants him to do with the ball when he gets it but the guard needs to feed him the ball at the right time. The guards have not developed enough to know when to jam it inside, drive, or pass it around. Too often they pass it around or drive and ditch the ball off at the last minute to the big men when everyone has already collapsed around them.

Give Pel a few more games to teach these guys how to play basketball vice Heath Ball and Hill may start producing better numbers.

He does need a lot of work on getting position after the shot though to get the ball for a putback.



Just my 2 cents.

I hear ya, but he doesn't handle passes very well in my opinion.  The zing one to him and it bounces off his hands and he has to shuffle for it every time.

[dj shanon "Notshavin" smeya]

Is it time to permanently fix his butt on the end of the bench?

I think so.

And those of you saying he is NBA material....please.

Lil' Shawn Bradley is not pro material.

[TRUHOG718]

Is it time to permanently fix his butt on the end of the bench?

I think so.

And those of you saying he is NBA material....please.

Lil' Shawn Bradley is not pro material.

I agree. He's got NBA size but he's playing like a used car sales man. Defend him all you want, If Townes starts we sacrifice defense for scoring and townes defense is looking pretty good lately. 6 minutes without a basket. That would not happen if Townes was starting.