Hogville Info
• 9,365,538 Posts
• 384,975 Topics
• 21,558 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:Football      Basketball      Baseball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON 103.3 
  
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: It's worth noting...  (Read 5568 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

niels_boar

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 351
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
It's worth noting...
« on: July 06, 2017, 01:34:53 pm »

to those who want to take a break from the rending of garments due to the loss of Perry that the teams that have been in the NC game the last two years (UNC, Gonzaga, and Villanova) have done it primarily with three and four-year players that developed in college.  In fact, there is a theory out there that the academic scandal at UNC helped them because they had to settle for players just below the sure one-and-done talents, and UNC can pipeline talent far easier than we can. They have been better than UK and Duke the last two seasons.

With the benefit of hindsight I don't believe losing Monk for one year had any major impact on the long-term health of the Arkansas program.  He didn't complement the rest of the roster well enough last season to have made a huge impact.  His primary strengths were not a weakness on the team, and most likely we would have lost at least one valuable asset for this season, either Barford or Jones.  I wouldn't trade one year of Monk for two of Barford.  We will have to see how Jones develops over his career, but the case may be similar for him as well if his ceiling is as high as many of us believe.

Just how big a loss Perry is will be determined by how run-ready the team is in 2018 and who takes his scholarship.  My guess is that our year for a deep run is more likely 2019 than 2018, even with Perry, and Perry would probably not be there regardless.  The team will be awfully young in 2018.  Arkansas has never pipelined 5-stars on a yearly basis.  If we get a two or three-year NBA talent type player to replace Perry, it's all good.  A one-and-done is most useful for us when they are the final piece.  That might end up being the case in 2018 with Perry, but it may also be true that a player that wouldn't have been here in 2019 with Perry on campus may ultimately be more important. Only time will tell how it plays out.  I would gladly have taken Monk to see what was possible last season.  I'm quite satisfied that that prayer went unanswered now.
Logged

HF#1

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 25,687
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2017, 01:39:02 pm »

Great post. Agreed on all points.
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...

hawgfan4life

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 1,424
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2017, 08:26:09 pm »

B.S.!  We are finished.  They should doze in the arena.  We will never survive the loss of this player.  I've never seen him play, and he has never played in college, and he may only play one year, but he was the future! 
Logged

ArkansasI

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,587
  • '89 & '92
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2017, 09:49:56 pm »

Kentucky hammered the Hogs last year. So did Florida.

I understand that there are players that are determined to leave the state, but you can't build a solid program at Arkansas when the best the state has to offer is playing against you. The current optimism is based solely on a strong state class that is staying home to play together.

I'm excited to see what can happen the next few years. But all this rationalizing is unpalatable. 
Logged

BadHog

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7,329
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2017, 10:28:23 pm »

OMG rational analysis of the situation in a Jumpball thread. I must be dreaming...however, I would - just one time - have an awesome one and done recruit come to the hill to see if it really does make a difference. Just one.
Logged

Breems

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20,639
  • They grow up so fast
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2017, 10:43:09 pm »

however, I would - just one time - have an awesome one and done recruit come to the hill to see if it really does make a difference. Just one.

It can make all the difference in the world or none at all. Entirely dependent on the situation.

Quote
A one-and-done is most useful for us when they are the final piece

That's a very succinct summary. Ben Simmons was all-world, but he didn't play a single postseason game at LSU. He was the cake when they needed him to be the icing.

Logged

NWAHog479

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 11:06:44 pm »

We lost out on a 5 star player, had the number one class... BUT we are now in on TJ Moss a 4 star player and now have options to go after other top players... Likely will still have a top ten class either way, sucks to lose Perry but we will be okay. Top 10 class in the SEC for a school not named Kentucky, pretty impressive.
Logged

RealHog

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 365
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2017, 11:20:11 pm »

We lost out on a 5 star player, had the number one class... BUT we are now in on TJ Moss a 4 star player and now have options to go after other top players... Likely will still have a top ten class either way, sucks to lose Perry but we will be okay. Top 10 class in the SEC for a school not named Kentucky, pretty impressive.

I'd lay $100 we don't get Moss, LeBlanc, or anyone else who is A) out of state or B) related and/or parents are close friends to CMA. Just pie in the sky with this staff till they prove me otherwise.
Logged

nwahogfan1

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,097
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 11:23:56 pm »

Good points but you missed two points.  5 star kids puts you on national TV and puts butts in the seats.
Logged

nwahogfan1

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,097
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2017, 11:24:38 pm »

I'd lay $100 we don't get Moss, LeBlanc, or anyone else who is A) out of state or B) related and/or parents are close friends to CMA. Just pie in the sky with this staff till they prove me otherwise.

What your saying has a lot of substance but Hog fans are hoping this is a new year.  Lol.  Hey maybe Scotty will make a difference.  It seems like more offers are being thrown out so maybe.
Logged

Adam Stokes

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,685
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2017, 07:46:14 am »

to those who want to take a break from the rending of garments due to the loss of Perry that the teams that have been in the NC game the last two years (UNC, Gonzaga, and Villanova) have done it primarily with three and four-year players that developed in college.  In fact, there is a theory out there that the academic scandal at UNC helped them because they had to settle for players just below the sure one-and-done talents, and UNC can pipeline talent far easier than we can. They have been better than UK and Duke the last two seasons.

Thought I'd look it up.

Recruits and their stars in the 2013-2016 classes:

Teams : 5-4-3 stars

Arkansas : 1-6-7

UNC:       4-6-1
Gonzaga: 0-6-4
Villanova: 2-5-2

I didn't look to see how long each lasted and team retention, but just eyeballing it you can see that essentially every team recruits as well as we do, save UNC who is a blue blood. So no the problem isn't necessarily recruiting, which is why it is all the more disappointing.

The plethora of 5 stars at UNC consistently underachieve, allowing them to stay for 4 years. Arkansas hasn't had a 5-star stay more than two years this century, and the quantity has been low as well. 32 different teams have signed a 5 star since we got Portis. Gonzaga and Villanova on the other hand actually develop their players. Gonzaga has taken multiple 3-stars and made them lottery/first-round picks. In the past 7 years we've had 1 player drafted, our only 5-star. In the last 8 basketball classes we've had 12 4-stars come through the program and not a single one has been drafted.

One of those reasons is that over half of our 4-stars have been JUCO's that we'll keep 2 years max, so they are really only worth half a normal 4-star. And we've had the worst roster turnover of the four teams. We've had 16 players come in over the last 4 years, that's two more than the next closest team.

So no recruiting isn't the problem, and that is THE biggest reason to be pessimistic.

I'm not calling for Anderson's head. If you gave me a crystal ball in 2011 and saw where we were now I would I have supported him coming here? Heck no. But here's hoping he can make the changes that are needed to make a team that averages one 4-star a year into a successful team.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:14:42 am by Adam Stokes »
Logged

TexArkHogFan

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 770
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2017, 08:37:51 am »

We had Portis, that's our one five star for  this decade.  We aren't due another one until sometime in the 20's.  That seems to be our allotment - one five star about every decade.  Go Hogs.  I wish people would stop saying Perry is an Arkansas kid.  He isn't.  Oral commitments are not binding.  We never had him so how can you lose something you never had.
Logged

NWAHog479

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 414
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2017, 08:57:38 am »

Good points but you missed two points.  5 star kids puts you on national TV and puts butts in the seats.

We were 12th in the nation in attendance last year... Number 21 in football
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 9,166
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2017, 08:59:17 am »

Good points but you missed two points.  5 star kids puts you on national TV and puts butts in the seats.

How did that work out for Washington?
Logged

lynbug

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 564
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2017, 10:04:15 am »

to those who want to take a break from the rending of garments due to the loss of Perry that the teams that have been in the NC game the last two years (UNC, Gonzaga, and Villanova) have done it primarily with three and four-year players that developed in college.  In fact, there is a theory out there that the academic scandal at UNC helped them because they had to settle for players just below the sure one-and-done talents, and UNC can pipeline talent far easier than we can. They have been better than UK and Duke the last two seasons.

With the benefit of hindsight I don't believe losing Monk for one year had any major impact on the long-term health of the Arkansas program.  He didn't complement the rest of the roster well enough last season to have made a huge impact.  His primary strengths were not a weakness on the team, and most likely we would have lost at least one valuable asset for this season, either Barford or Jones.  I wouldn't trade one year of Monk for two of Barford.  We will have to see how Jones develops over his career, but the case may be similar for him as well if his ceiling is as high as many of us believe.

Just how big a loss Perry is will be determined by how run-ready the team is in 2018 and who takes his scholarship.  My guess is that our year for a deep run is more likely 2019 than 2018, even with Perry, and Perry would probably not be there regardless.  The team will be awfully young in 2018.  Arkansas has never pipelined 5-stars on a yearly basis.  If we get a two or three-year NBA talent type player to replace Perry, it's all good.  A one-and-done is most useful for us when they are the final piece.  That might end up being the case in 2018 with Perry, but it may also be true that a player that wouldn't have been here in 2019 with Perry on campus may ultimately be more important. Only time will tell how it plays out.  I would gladly have taken Monk to see what was possible last season.  I'm quite satisfied that that prayer went unanswered now.
THANK YOU..... for inserting sanity into the craziness (me included).  I will sleep better tonight.
Logged

daprospecta

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,833
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2017, 10:40:42 am »

Thought I'd look it up.

Recruits and their stars in the 2013-2016 classes:

Teams : 5-4-3 stars

Arkansas : 1-6-7

UNC:       4-6-1
Gonzaga: 0-6-4
Villanova: 2-5-2

I didn't look to see how long each lasted and team retention, but just eyeballing it you can see that essentially every team recruits as well as we do, save UNC who is a blue blood. So no the problem isn't necessarily recruiting, which is why it is all the more disappointing.

The plethora of 5 stars at UNC consistently underachieve, allowing them to stay for 4 years. Arkansas hasn't had a 5-star stay more than two years this century, and the quantity has been low as well. 32 different teams have signed a 5 star since we got Portis. Gonzaga and Villanova on the other hand actually develop their players. Gonzaga has taken multiple 3-stars and made them lottery/first-round picks. In the past 7 years we've had 1 player drafted, our only 5-star. In the last 8 basketball classes we've had 12 4-stars come through the program and not a single one has been drafted.

One of those reasons is that over half of our 4-stars have been JUCO's that we'll keep 2 years max, so they are really only worth half a normal 4-star. And we've had the worst roster turnover of the four teams. We've had 16 players come in over the last 4 years, that's two more than the next closest team.

So no recruiting isn't the problem, and that is THE biggest reason to be pessimistic.

I'm not calling for Anderson's head. If you gave me a crystal ball in 2011 and saw where we were now I would I have supported him coming here? Heck no. But here's hoping he can make the changes that are needed to make a team that averages one 4-star a year into a successful team.


With where we are now and where we are headed(consistent top 3 finishes in the SEC, higher recruiting classes, winning games in the tourney), which in my opinion is up, who could you possibly replace Mike with? Is Mike a great coach? No.  I think he is a good coach and he finally has a team that mimics his preferred style. 
Logged

Adam Stokes

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 6,685
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2017, 11:01:21 am »

With where we are now and where we are headed(consistent top 3 finishes in the SEC, higher recruiting classes, winning games in the tourney), which in my opinion is up, who could you possibly replace Mike with? Is Mike a great coach? No.  I think he is a good coach and he finally has a team that mimics his preferred style. 

That's why I'm not calling for his head, I agree that we have been going up slowly. I'm just saying that he will need to retain and develop these next couple classes if we ever want to make the Sweet 16, and he hasn't been doing that well enough since he's been here. He's head and shoulders above Pel and Heath. I think Mike's ceiling is late 90's Nolan, and I'm okay with that.
Logged

niels_boar

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 351
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2017, 11:10:19 am »

Kentucky hammered the Hogs last year. So did Florida.

I understand that there are players that are determined to leave the state, but you can't build a solid program at Arkansas when the best the state has to offer is playing against you. The current optimism is based solely on a strong state class that is staying home to play together.

I'm excited to see what can happen the next few years. But all this rationalizing is unpalatable.

UNC didn't hammer us on a neutral court much closer to Chapel Hill.
Logged

niels_boar

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 351
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2017, 11:21:52 am »

Just to clarify there are certainly scenarios where narrowly missing on Perry will be one of the great "what-ifs" in Arkansas basketball history like losing Penny Hardaway and Karl Malone.  However, that's far from the only scenario.  There are a broad spectrum of possibilities from disaster to a footnote depending on many factors.
Logged

niels_boar

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 351
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2017, 12:42:34 pm »

Thought I'd look it up.

Recruits and their stars in the 2013-2016 classes:

Teams : 5-4-3 stars

Arkansas : 1-6-7

UNC:       4-6-1
Gonzaga: 0-6-4
Villanova: 2-5-2

I didn't look to see how long each lasted and team retention, but just eyeballing it you can see that essentially every team recruits as well as we do, save UNC who is a blue blood. So no the problem isn't necessarily recruiting, which is why it is all the more disappointing.

The plethora of 5 stars at UNC consistently underachieve, allowing them to stay for 4 years. Arkansas hasn't had a 5-star stay more than two years this century, and the quantity has been low as well. 32 different teams have signed a 5 star since we got Portis. Gonzaga and Villanova on the other hand actually develop their players. Gonzaga has taken multiple 3-stars and made them lottery/first-round picks. In the past 7 years we've had 1 player drafted, our only 5-star. In the last 8 basketball classes we've had 12 4-stars come through the program and not a single one has been drafted.

One of those reasons is that over half of our 4-stars have been JUCO's that we'll keep 2 years max, so they are really only worth half a normal 4-star. And we've had the worst roster turnover of the four teams. We've had 16 players come in over the last 4 years, that's two more than the next closest team.

So no recruiting isn't the problem, and that is THE biggest reason to be pessimistic.

I'm not calling for Anderson's head. If you gave me a crystal ball in 2011 and saw where we were now I would I have supported him coming here? Heck no. But here's hoping he can make the changes that are needed to make a team that averages one 4-star a year into a successful team.

That's an exaggeration.  One, there is a broad range of 4-stars.  Nobody thought we had as much talent on the court as UNC.  The difference between us and the blue bloods is depth of high-end talent. The corps of UNC's team had some upperclassmen  4-stars like Meeks and Berry.  Meeks was their best player in the FF.  Jackson, Hicks, and Pinson were upperclassmen 5-stars.  I really like Pinson's game, but he isn't 5-star skilled.  He was overrated, maybe because he signed with UNC.  UNC had only one 3-star in the rotation, Mayes. They had a 5-star frosh coming off the bench. The rest were 4-stars.

As for Gonzaga, they currently have 3 players in the NBA Olynyk, Sabonis, and Wiltjer. Collins, a 5-star, will join them.  Yeah, Sabonis was a 3-star according to some rankings, but I'm calling BS on that ranking.  He's the 6-10 son of one of the greatest basketball players that ever lived and was top 10 in Europe.  No way he is a 3-star if he plays high-school basketball in the US.  Likewise, Olynyk was ranked right at the 3/4-star cutoff but played in Canada, where he was likely underrated by US services.  Great evaluations by Few in casting a wide net, but getting either to the NBA was not the same as, say, getting, Mickelson to the NBA.  Self couldn't get him in the lineup either, much less the NBA.  Few has also depended heavily on 4-star recruits from major programs like Williams, Wiltjer, and Nigel-Goss.  He's getting the benefit of 4th and 5th year seniors of former 4-stars from major programs.  Big kudos for the transfer program, but that doesn't mean he's doing anything extraordinary in development.  CMA took a former 2-star Dusty Hannahs and made him one of the leading scorers in the SEC for two years.

My own view is that recruiting hasn't been the disaster that many make it out to be but could certainly be better.  In fact, it's getting better.  We seem to be heading to a roster of mainly 4-stars, which is where we need to be to rise back into national prominence.  I don't see a lot of evidence that we have underperformed relative to talent.  Players like Qualls, Madden, Kingsley, Durham, Hannahs, Bell, and Thompson have made significant progress over their careers.  Who are the players that have graduated that had much hope of ever playing in the NBA that haven't?  For instance, Madden was a 4-star, but it was quickly evident that he didn't have the requisite athletic explosiveness to get drafted, no matter how well he was coached.
Logged

TNhawgfan

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 8,173
  • Our home away from home - 7 to 8 wins
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2017, 09:57:28 am »

We lost out on a 5 star player, had the number one class... BUT we are now in on TJ Moss a 4 star player and now have options to go after other top players... Likely will still have a top ten class either way, sucks to lose Perry but we will be okay. Top 10 class in the SEC for a school not named Kentucky, pretty impressive.
I'm sure with the offer sheet moss has, he was sitting around waiting for us to make our move on him. Plus, Cleveland is our main recruiter for him, and we all know what a stud recruiter he is. Yep, I'll be expecting that commitment any day now
Logged

Biggus Piggus

  • Escaped Journalist
  • Global Moderator
  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 30,607
  • Hogville: The mosh pit of Razorbackland
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2017, 11:31:15 am »

It's worth noting that we aren't allowed to have 5-star basketball players.
Logged

PonderinHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48,757
  • Go Hogs and Go Mike Anderson!
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2017, 08:30:22 pm »

It's worth noting that we aren't allowed to have 5-star basketball players.
How about the singular - a 5-star basketball player?  Can we have one ???
Logged

ArkansasI

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,587
  • '89 & '92
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2017, 02:30:57 pm »

UNC didn't hammer us on a neutral court much closer to Chapel Hill.
I envy your ability to find victory in defeat.

I hope the Hogs maintain their expectations without Moses, Dusty and Manny. Daryl and Jaylen are strong characters, but the freshmen will be... Freshmen.

Seems the success of the 2017-18 team will be more dependant upon the improvement of Bailey, Cook and Jones. I think they can play, but will their collective best raise the bar?  If so, how much?

The fact that so many of us are defining a respectable loss in the second round of the tournament as "success" or "inspiring" reflects how far we've fallen. The reduction in fan expectations may be just what we needed. We seem more tolerant. And that may be needed.

I find Mike's tenure as no better than maintaining status quo - post-Nolan. The energy is coming from players that have elected to stay (or return) home. The program - and Mike - would benefit greatly from an "endorsement" from a PLAYER.

It seems the guys most capable of providing the endorsement we need have refused.  I'm talking about guys that have gotten to know Mike and should be willing to give the benefit of doubt. About 5 minutes with an opposing coach and these guys are looking elsewhere.
Logged

ShadowHawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,934
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2017, 08:35:44 pm »

What a flawed point of view.

We fell to Auburn and South Carolina levels after Nolan. How did you miss that until now?

In order to return to being highly successful requires passing through a period of sporadic success. Our game against UNC is simply a way to measure how far we are from being where we want to be.

Our performance gave people hope and wasn't the moral victory you are falsely portraying.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 03:31:42 pm »

Kentucky hammered the Hogs last year. So did Florida.

I understand that there are players that are determined to leave the state, but you can't build a solid program at Arkansas when the best the state has to offer is playing against you. The current optimism is based solely on a strong state class that is staying home to play together.

I'm excited to see what can happen the next few years. But all this rationalizing is unpalatable.
All of this bitching is unpalatable.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 03:32:16 pm »

OMG rational analysis of the situation in a Jumpball thread. I must be dreaming...however, I would - just one time - have an awesome one and done recruit come to the hill to see if it really does make a difference. Just one.
Agreed. Just one to see how it plays out.
Logged

BossHog12

  • Bench Warmer
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 120
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2017, 09:38:42 pm »

It feels to me like Mike can get us there eventually. Eventually as in a little ways on down the road. We should be willing to wait it out as long as the program is still strong. Recruiting will come around because we are going to be winning a lot more games in the coming years. Big games. This is how college sports work, you can't just leap back in to the national discussion.
Logged

bkjbearcat

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 07:44:52 am »

It feels to me like Mike can get us there eventually. Eventually as in a little ways on down the road. We should be willing to wait it out as long as the program is still strong. Recruiting will come around because we are going to be winning a lot more games in the coming years. Big games. This is how college sports work, you can't just leap back in to the national discussion.

He's going on year seven. What do you mean down the road, year 12, 15 or 20?
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,387
  • Hope...
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 07:47:53 pm »

How can a one and done be the future of any program?  You are placing too much importance on one player in a team sport!

Basketball is either experience team juniors and seniors or a couple of great players that play a year. Heck Kentucky shows that a couple of great players can get you deep into the tournament. 
Logged

PonderinHog

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 48,757
  • Go Hogs and Go Mike Anderson!
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2017, 08:57:11 pm »

How can a one and done be the future of any program?  You are placing too much importance on one player in a team sport!
Your sarcasm detector may be broken.
Logged

What's Shakin' Macon

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,630
  • My English Mastiff and #1 Hog fan, Maizy
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2017, 01:20:03 am »

How many would have panicked and resorted to doom and gloom had Darius Winston or Olu Famutimi decommitted?
And in the end, how much did those two end up mattering to their respective teams?

How many thought Hannahs wasn't worth the scholarship? (Yes, there were quite a few of you).

How many told me that Nick Babb was a significant loss to the program? (Oh yes, there were tons of you).

In other words, let them get playing time and then judge how big of a contributor they are. Perry may be the loss of a lifetime or he could be just another guy, when it is all said and done. Let it play out.
Logged

What's Shakin' Macon

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,630
  • My English Mastiff and #1 Hog fan, Maizy
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2017, 01:24:35 am »

He's going on year seven. What do you mean down the road, year 12, 15 or 20?
I know, right? The great ones like John Wooden will have won their first title right away, or never. Oh wait, Wooden won his first title in this 16th season at UCLA.

MA isn't Wooden, and he may not get us there. But this mentality that if he hasn't gotten us there yet that it won't happen, is flawed and shortsighted.
Logged

bkjbearcat

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2017, 06:36:24 am »

I know, right? The great ones like John Wooden will have won their first title right away, or never. Oh wait, Wooden won his first title in this 16th season at UCLA.

MA isn't Wooden, and he may not get us there. But this mentality that if he hasn't gotten us there yet that it won't happen, is flawed and shortsighted.

This isn't 1961. And a championship? MA is going on year seven and all we want is to get to the Sweet 16. Acceptance of mediocrity is flawed and shortsighted.
Logged

FineAsSwine

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,891
  • Hogville think tank
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2017, 12:01:34 pm »

This isn't 1961. And a championship? MA is going on year seven and all we want is to get to the Sweet 16. Acceptance of mediocrity is flawed and shortsighted.

Mediocrity is not making the NCAA tournament for prolonged periods. We have been in there for two out of the last 3 years and are looking at two years straight if we get in this year. Plus, we have a roster loaded with Seniors returning with tournament experience. We could make a run this year if the freshmen can really push the older guys in practice and contribute in short stints off of the bench.

We almost made the Sweet Sixteen last season if the refs hadn't helped the bear.
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,387
  • Hope...
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2017, 01:21:26 pm »

UK is a poor example.  They are loaded with blue chip players up and down their roster so we are not talking about one one and done as is our case with Perry.  By the way, UK has only won 1 NC during Cals tenure with teams full of NBA talent so what impresses you about a team full of 1 and dones?

That is because cal is an average coach.  Great talent pulls him up to another level.  You give the same type of talent to coach k and he probably has 3 or more championships in the same time that cal has been there. The point is basketball really only needs a couple big time players to turn an average team into a contender. 
Logged

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,387
  • Hope...
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2017, 06:37:21 pm »

So how many Gonzaga or Wichita St players were drafted?  Both teams are perennial Sweet 16 participants but don't have a single 5* on the team.  They are perennial due to consistency not 1 and dones.

They have good coaching and able to keep their team together for a few years.  You must not read my threads very well.  I said a good team or a couple of great players can make an average team a contender. Basketball is nothing like football where you need a lot of good players to be competitive.
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 9,166
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2017, 09:47:15 pm »

So how many Gonzaga or Wichita St players were drafted?  Both teams are perennial Sweet 16 participants but don't have a single 5* on the team.  They are perennial due to consistency not 1 and dones.

Wichita State is not a perennial Sweet 16 participant. They've been out of the first weekend twice under Gregg Marshall and never in consecutive years. They're occasional Sweet 16 participants.

Gonzaga relies on high-major transfers. Programs like Arkansas are the ones suffering the transfers. It's much harder to maintain stability at Arkansas than it is Gonzaga or WSU.

While we're at it, let's move Arkansas to the MVC or WCC so we can run up a fat W/L record every year and get a favorable seed. That helps with their sucess, too.
Logged

Hawg Red

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 9,166
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2017, 11:55:50 am »

Can't have it both ways.  I've seen posters in jump ball refer to the conference as not a good one too many times.  Is it a good conference or not?  Just attempting to make the point that 1 and dones are not a healthy way to build a team UNLESS said team is one piece away from winning a NATTY.

Have it both ways?

Where did I say the WCC or MVC was good? That's my point. Gonzaga and Wichita State play tough non-con schedules and then get to go on vacation while the high-majors battle much, much tougher schedules. Gonzaga and WSU are clearly well-run programs but you can see why Mark Few and Gregg Marshall don't want to leave for tougher jobs. They have it made and have it easy in terms of conference play (that is about to change for Marshall). I think Gonzaga and Wichita State are good without thinking their conferences are.

You came at me in the bball recruiting forum because I said no one recruit would be able to replace Perry, which is true, even though I said the rest of the players in the class would be good 4-year players. No one is talking about building a team around one-and-dones. Arkansas has never had one. There is no guarantee that Perry would be one, though he will most likely be one. So what are you arguing about? The kid would have helped the program tremendously. Anyone with any common sense can see that the program will be okay without. But that is the problem for some fans -- they're tired of being "okay" and losing recruits of this caliber when you can get them to commit is very disheartening and a sobering reminder of where the program stands. I don't get this weird logic that it doesn't make sense to have a one-and-done player unless the team can win a NC. I've seen you say that having Reggie Perry for a year would have stunted the growth of another player. Who? Adrio Bailey? Ethan Henderson? Are these players ever going to be as good as Perry will be a freshman? Not very likely. Is Bailey the kind of player who will be an All-SEC player? I don't think so. So you need those types of players somewhere, and that was Perry. Perry and Gafford, even for one year, would have been a very formidable frontline pairing that could have propelled the Hogs into the second weekend of the NCAA tournament. That's not for nothing, my man. The program goes on but in no universe is losing Perry not some kind of big deal somehow, some way.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:02 pm »

This isn't 1961. And a championship? MA is going on year seven and all we want is to get to the Sweet 16. Acceptance of mediocrity is flawed and shortsighted.
I'm guessing it should have been easier in 1961? And Wooden still didn't win his first championship until year 16? Hmmm...interesting. :-\
Logged

jabberjawls

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 620
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2017, 02:14:18 pm »

to those who want to take a break from the rending of garments due to the loss of Perry that the teams that have been in the NC game the last two years (UNC, Gonzaga, and Villanova) have done it primarily with three and four-year players that developed in college.  In fact, there is a theory out there that the academic scandal at UNC helped them because they had to settle for players just below the sure one-and-done talents, and UNC can pipeline talent far easier than we can. They have been better than UK and Duke the last two seasons.

With the benefit of hindsight I don't believe losing Monk for one year had any major impact on the long-term health of the Arkansas program.  He didn't complement the rest of the roster well enough last season to have made a huge impact.  His primary strengths were not a weakness on the team, and most likely we would have lost at least one valuable asset for this season, either Barford or Jones.  I wouldn't trade one year of Monk for two of Barford.  We will have to see how Jones develops over his career, but the case may be similar for him as well if his ceiling is as high as many of us believe.

Just how big a loss Perry is will be determined by how run-ready the team is in 2018 and who takes his scholarship.  My guess is that our year for a deep run is more likely 2019 than 2018, even with Perry, and Perry would probably not be there regardless.  The team will be awfully young in 2018.  Arkansas has never pipelined 5-stars on a yearly basis.  If we get a two or three-year NBA talent type player to replace Perry, it's all good.  A one-and-done is most useful for us when they are the final piece.  That might end up being the case in 2018 with Perry, but it may also be true that a player that wouldn't have been here in 2019 with Perry on campus may ultimately be more important. Only time will tell how it plays out.  I would gladly have taken Monk to see what was possible last season.  I'm quite satisfied that that prayer went unanswered now.
We should be primed and ready for the final four, then.
Logged

Razorbackers

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 3,712
  • Good Takes Found Here
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2017, 04:03:03 pm »

It's worth noting that we aren't allowed to have 5-star basketball players.

This is what I've been saying from the beginning.
Logged

rude1

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,303
  • Razorback Basketball Another New Beginning....
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2017, 08:58:34 pm »

Our reality is just this, the staff doesn't land anything over a 3* recruit that's not from the state or connected to staff or state in some manner, they don't land 5* talent whether it be from inside the state or out, so what we are going to find out is how good nationally can we be with our all Arkansas 4* talent that this staff can only supply, that is supplemented with transfers, jucos, or 3* talent from elsewhere? I don't have the answer to that, but that is who we are, and what we are going to try and challenge nationally with.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 06:56:32 am »

Our reality is just this, the staff doesn't land anything over a 3* recruit that's not from the state or connected to staff or state in some manner, they don't land 5* talent whether it be from inside the state or out, so what we are going to find out is how good nationally can we be with our all Arkansas 4* talent that this staff can only supply, that is supplemented with transfers, jucos, or 3* talent from elsewhere? I don't have the answer to that, but that is who we are, and what we are going to try and challenge nationally with.
Dude, what the hell are you talking about? We've landed quite a few 4stars that aren't from the state and most highly rated kids that commit to whatever school is connected to the staff in some kind of way or another or they have family ties to that school. But your making great points. Keep going...
Logged

rude1

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,303
  • Razorback Basketball Another New Beginning....
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2017, 12:10:33 pm »

Dude, what the hell are you talking about? We've landed quite a few 4stars that aren't from the state and most highly rated kids that commit to whatever school is connected to the staff in some kind of way or another or they have family ties to that school. But your making great points. Keep going...
Dude name them? Moses Kingsley ( Friends with  Bobby Portis), Jimmy Whitt ( Family friend's kid). Who else you got to add to that massive list? The out of state players landed have been for the most part jucos, transfers, or 3* & less type of talent........
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2017, 03:34:19 pm »

Dude name them? Moses Kingsley ( Friends with  Bobby Portis), Jimmy Whitt ( Family friend's kid). Who else you got to add to that massive list? The out of state players landed have been for the most part jucos, transfers, or 3* & less type of talent........
4 stars are 4 stars it doesn't matter where they're from and I don't care if there are some JUCO's in the mix. I don't care if every last one of them come from the state of Arkansas. Just come baby. Are we not supposed to recruit them just because they are from Arkansas? If we were to sign all Arkansas kids in the years to come we will have some pretty good rosters. "Arkansas Against The World" Lets do it!!! WooPig!!
Logged

rude1

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,303
  • Razorback Basketball Another New Beginning....
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2017, 04:59:58 pm »

4 stars are 4 stars it doesn't matter where they're from and I don't care if there are some JUCO's in the mix. I don't care if every last one of them come from the state of Arkansas. Just come baby. Are we not supposed to recruit them just because they are from Arkansas? If we were to sign all Arkansas kids in the years to come we will have some pretty good rosters. "Arkansas Against The World" Lets do it!!! WooPig!!
So now you change the discussion, you said we had gotten several 4* players from out of state, who are they? Don't get me wrong I am glad we are now getting this caliber of player from instate because we certainly wasn't getting them from outside the state.
Logged

Youngsta71701

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4,921
  • There's a God somewhere.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #47 on: July 21, 2017, 06:10:01 am »

So now you change the discussion, you said we had gotten several 4* players from out of state, who are they? Don't get me wrong I am glad we are now getting this caliber of player from instate because we certainly wasn't getting them from outside the state.
Moses Kingsley
Jimmy Whitt
Ted Kapita
Jaylon Barford
Arlando Cook

They are all 4* recruits on one site or another.
If they didn't grow up in Arkansas, they didn't play high school ball in Arkansas, or they didn't graduate from a school in Arkansas I consider them out of state recruits.

*It wasn't Mike's fault Kapita didn't get cleared.
*It wasn't Mike's fault Jimmy didn't want to be a team player.
Logged

songofthesword

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,364
  • Your site for Razorback news.
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2017, 07:50:38 pm »

basketball is  not football


arkansas does not have to recruit nationally to be relevant nationally in basketball . very few states producer more top 100 players poer capa than arkansas\


when florida played kentucky last year, i.e two teams that are national programs and are not arkansas, 30% of the starters in the game were from the state of arkansas

all arkansas has ever had to do, was lock down arkansas. pick up a  guy form texas or memphis.   i'd even aruge that we went down hill when we started to try to recruit nationally.

you lock down arkansas, tulsa, memphis and you are a ntiational program
Logged

ShadowHawg

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,934
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: It's worth noting...
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2017, 08:46:54 pm »

Our reality is just this, the staff doesn't land anything over a 3* recruit that's not from the state or connected to staff or state in some manner, they don't land 5* talent whether it be from inside the state or out, so what we are going to find out is how good nationally can we be with our all Arkansas 4* talent that this staff can only supply, that is supplemented with transfers, jucos, or 3* talent from elsewhere? I don't have the answer to that, but that is who we are, and what we are going to try and challenge nationally with.

Reggie Perry had ties to Miss St. He doesn't count for Howland then.

You guys need to do your homework when it comes to recruiting. Proximity and personal ties are what land a lot of top recruits.

I guess Sutton can't count the triplets because they were from in state.

Nolan can't count Mayberry, Day, Robinson, Corliss, or Alexander because of personal ties or being from in state.

Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas