Hogville Info
• 9,228,693 Posts
• 381,077 Topics
• 21,253 Hogvillians
THE RULES (Read 'em!)
Quick Links
Pick'Ems:Football      Basketball      Baseball
Sister Sites:Gridiron HistoryFearless Friday
Listen NOW:Game ON 103.3 
  
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?  (Read 751 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« on: September 13, 2017, 06:13:13 pm »

Dabo had a losing season in year 3. Broyles was 5-5-1 the year before winning the national championship with 5 losing and 500 seasons. Barry Alverez experienced 3 losing seasons before busting out in year 4 only to drop another losing season in year 7. Bill Snyder experienced 3 losing seasons in the first 4 years before breaking out in year 5. Steve Spurrier won more than 7 games only once his first 5 years at South Carolina before the best stretch in program history. Hayden Frye posted 2 losing seasons to start his career. These coaches all or will be in the college football hall of fame building mediocre programs into the national spotlight.
Logged

jgphillips3

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9,610
  • Life is too short for bad beer.
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 06:17:03 pm »

There will alway be rebuilding years.  However, look at Petrino for instance.  That first year losing record had him madder than a hornet and he actually said "all you teams better get your licks in this year because it ain't happening again."  We would have eventually DROPPED to a 7 or 8 win year under Petrino some year or other but you could clearly see by the end of year one what potential was there and by the end of year two you could see the foundation.  It should never take 5 years to begin to see the glimmer of a program.
Logged

Sponsored Ad



Hogville encourages you to do business with the following...

HiggiePiggy

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 10,971
  • Hope...
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 06:45:34 pm »

5 years and we are still unsure about what our team is.
Logged

NuttinItUp

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13,162
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 07:40:13 pm »

There will alway be rebuilding years.  However, look at Petrino for instance.  That first year losing record had him madder than a hornet and he actually said "all you teams better get your licks in this year because it ain't happening again."  We would have eventually DROPPED to a 7 or 8 win year under Petrino some year or other but you could clearly see by the end of year one what potential was there and by the end of year two you could see the foundation.  It should never take 5 years to begin to see the glimmer of a program.

^^^This.^^^

It is more a mentality than anything else.

However, Frank did run off Lou Holtz too soon. I wish we would have had him for his Notre Dame years.
Logged

PossumFan

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 490
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 07:57:01 pm »

Frank Beamer had losing seasons in four of his first six years, including 2-8-1 in year six, before turning it around and eventually posting double-digit wins nine times during a 10-year spread. Right or wrong, nobody has the patience to put up with that kind of a start anymore.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 08:24:08 pm »

All of these hall of fame coaches would have been fired by hogville at one time or another. Some coaches have started off shaky changed philosophy then became successful. The coaches that are successful right off the bat often turn out to be duds. Malzahn went to the NC his first year and was the OC for thier championship. His fanbase demands that he never calls plays. Sumlin is the second winningest coach in TAMU history and is destined to be fired. I am not an expert of football but, I beginning to doubt any of this sites posters are either. The response to this is often that fans have a right to be fanatical. The difference is your internet ranting can actually get results. Hogville can effect our program.
Logged

jgphillips3

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9,610
  • Life is too short for bad beer.
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 08:34:48 pm »

Look.  You can find great coaches that took longer at programs that were "never had beens" like Virginia Tech before Beamer but when you have a "has been" program like Arkansas it doesn't take 6 or 7 years to build it.  That is utter nonsense.  On average, by year 3, you can see what a good coach is doing and can do.  By year 5 it's almost universal that you see what they have built.  Now, unless you are Alabama and have top 3 recruiting classes every year, you will have a 6-6 or even losing season somewhere when you lose a huge chunk of players but normally, you will have had at least one big UP year somewhere in there.  This team looks more confused and less cohesive than Smile's team.  It's an almost astonishing feat for a coach in his 5th year with such good retention that we only have 12 scholarships to give.  None of it makes sense.  He needs to either grab this team by the cajones and will them to be good like Bobby did or just move on.
Logged

NuttinItUp

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 13,162
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 08:43:58 pm »

The difference is your internet ranting can actually get results. Hogville can effect our program.




(Also, affect =/= effect.)
Logged

Porkchop#1

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 171
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 09:17:00 pm »

For me, I've always said if you get out scored 70-0 or worse in the 2nd half of the 3 most recent contest against like opponents, then that coach has plateaued or maybe more appropriately, bottomed out. 

Either way, it's high time to find a new coach.
Logged

pignparadise

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 746
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 09:28:58 pm »

Your mentioning Broyles does not apply. In his first 6 seasons he was ranked in the Final top ten poll 4 times. He won the national championship in year seven.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 09:43:37 pm »

For me, I've always said if you get out scored 70-0 or worse in the 2nd half of the 3 most recent contest against like opponents, then that coach has plateaued or maybe more appropriately, bottomed out. 

Either way, it's high time to find a new coach.

What did some of these other coaches games look like in losing or average seasons. We are critiquing winning seasons because of how they feel to justify a coaching change. BIelema might have a losing season but we also might go 7-6 or 8-5. If this happens we would be absolute fools to let him go. I get tired of everyone here claiming to be an expert on prognosticating the future of a particular coach?
Logged

Porkchop#1

  • Varsity
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 171
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 09:54:05 pm »

What did some of these other coaches games look like in losing or average seasons. We are critiquing winning seasons because of how they feel to justify a coaching change. BIelema might have a losing season but we also might go 7-6 or 8-5. If this happens we would be absolute fools to let him go. I get tired of everyone here claiming to be an expert on prognosticating the future of a particular coach?
To answer your question, I'll say no, you do not get tired of everyone.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 10:09:28 pm »

To answer your question, I'll say no, you do not get tired of everyone.

Bravo my man!

Nick Saban Michigan St.
6-5-1
6-6
7-6
6-6
9-2

A has been program like Arkansas should be built in three by far dumbest statement in this thread. We are not in the SWC our history means nothing to anyone outside Arkansas. We are a never has been to everyone. Our national title is not recognized by anyone but us.

Logged

EastexHawg

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22,779
  • Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 10:10:46 pm »

I'm not sure why some people feel some sort of compulsion to keep giving Bielema more and more chances to see if he can finally have a good season.  It's like he is their son and they are determined that he has to eventually make it no matter how long it takes.

Or maybe it's that they don't want to admit the "haters" were right and are willing to let the program to flounder a few more years to avoid it.
Logged

Bubba's Bruisers

  • Gold Hogvillian
  • *********
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 25,063
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 10:12:21 pm »

I'm not sure why some people feel some sort of compulsion to keep giving Bielema more and more chances to see if he can finally have a good season.  It's like he is their son and they are determined that he has to eventually make it no matter how long it takes.

Or maybe it's that they don't want to admit the "haters" were right and are willing to let the program to flounder a few more years to avoid it.

We often put the HC ahead of the program. 
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2017, 10:27:32 pm »

I'm just pointing out facts also look at some of the losses Saban took at MSU. He got skull humped a lot. I don't care about Bielema but his record as an HC to this point with only 1 losing season is hard to beat. I just don't want to start over because some of you have an itch on your taint that only following planes can ease.
Logged

mckinneyhog5

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7,435
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 10:53:12 pm »

I'm willing to see this season through..the people complaining the most want to say "I told you so" because they were against the hire. I still think we will get better and have a shot at 8 wins. Now, that won't win the SEC but with all the receivers we replaced and losing RW along with some OL guys I think it's a respectable season for a team not ranked in the preseason top 25. If that happens I believe next year would be an exciting year. Now, if win less then 6, I may jump on the bandwagon of letting him go but again I want to see the rest of the year.
Logged

mckinneyhog5

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7,435
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 10:55:21 pm »

I'm just pointing out facts also look at some of the losses Saban took at MSU. He got skull humped a lot. I don't care about Bielema but his record as an HC to this point with only 1 losing season is hard to beat. I just don't want to start over because some of you have an itch on your taint that only following planes can ease.
Also, Petrino got skull humped by LSU in the bowl game last year but yet they expect him to be able to beat Bama if he stayed.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 11:00:02 pm »

Also, Petrino got skull humped by LSU in the bowl game last year but yet they expect him to be able to beat Bama if he stayed.

Don't forget Kentucky
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 11:04:47 pm »

Does this mean Petrino is a bad coach of course not. Bielema by his record to this point is on schedule. If he goes 4-8 or 3-9, I'll be concerned. If he goes 6-7 like MSU last year, I will be expecting a big season in 2018. All the coaches above started winning in years 5-7 and bielema had a better start than most.
Logged

ZERO

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,715
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 11:08:16 pm »

I think a lot of it is context. In our second year, I felt very good about our 7-6 because of how we progressed through the year and what we were coming back with. It was leaps and bounds over the 3-9 of the previous year. I felt like we squandered the third year a bit, but I felt OK about being another improved 8-5, even though there were some head scratchers. Last year was nothing but regression and an ominous feeling by the end of the year. And now it's looking like more of the same if TCU is any indication. I think at some point it becomes a matter of is the coach giving you any reason to look forward to the future, and how much reason has he given you to doubt him? Not all losses are equal. When you can look at a loss or a series of losses and say "well, if that's not a first then it's pretty damn close", then you're looking at some bad signs.
Logged

ZERO

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,715
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 11:08:52 pm »

Does this mean Petrino is a bad coach of course not. Bielema by his record to this point is on schedule. If he goes 4-8 or 3-9, I'll be concerned. If he goes 6-7 like MSU last year, I will be expecting a big season in 2018. All the coaches above started winning in years 5-7 and bielema had a better start than most.

MSU actually went 5-7 and got into a Bowl due to a freak occurrence.
Logged

jgphillips3

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 9,610
  • Life is too short for bad beer.
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 11:09:17 pm »

Bravo my man!

Nick Saban Michigan St.
6-5-1
6-6
7-6
6-6
9-2

A has been program like Arkansas should be built in three by far dumbest statement in this thread. We are not in the SWC our history means nothing to anyone outside Arkansas. We are a never has been to everyone. Our national title is not recognized by anyone but us.



Never has been?  Arkansas?  What the hell is wrong with you?  Are you 12?  They changed the voting on the national title to AFTER the bowls the next year BECAUSE of Arkansas and the farce we made out of the AP awarding before bowls.  This never has been program did that.  Then we had the game of the century in 1969 when we were ranked #2.  1977 when we clobbered Oklahoma.  Top ten finishes under Petrino.  If your standard is matching Alabama's bazillion titles then every other college football program is a "never has been".  Also, I didn't say "built" by year three.  I said you should SEE what the coach is trying to do in year three.  Now, just because an exceptional coach like Petrino had Arkansas built in year 3 doesn't mean everyone can, but you should be seeing it all start to come together...more wins, closer losses, etc.  and, as I said, there is no way in Hell in year 5 you should look like a train wreck with no cohesive vision.   
Logged

mckinneyhog5

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7,435
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2017, 11:11:08 pm »

Don't forget Kentucky
Or the collapse to Houston..
Logged

GoHogs1091

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,127
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 11:13:05 pm »

When you lose to Rutgers (while using a true Tight End at QB), lose to Toledo at home, lose to a soft Texas Tech at home, lose to Missouri twice, lose to Virginia Tech (while being non-existent in the 2nd half), and lose to TCU at home while only scoring 7 points, then it is known that it is time to move on.
Logged

mckinneyhog5

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7,435
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2017, 11:13:34 pm »

Never has been?  Arkansas?  What the hell is wrong with you?  Are you 12?  They changed the voting on the national title to AFTER the bowls the next year BECAUSE of Arkansas and the farce we made out of the AP awarding before bowls.  This never has been program did that.  Then we had the game of the century in 1969 when we were ranked #2.  1977 when we clobbered Oklahoma.  Top ten finishes under Petrino.  If your standard is matching Alabama's bazillion titles then every other college football program is a "never has been".  Also, I didn't say "built" by year three.  I said you should SEE what the coach is trying to do in year three.  Now, just because an exceptional coach like Petrino had Arkansas built in year 3 doesn't mean everyone can, but you should be seeing it all start to come together...more wins, closer losses, etc.  and, as I said, there is no way in Hell in year 5 you should look like a train wreck with no cohesive vision.   
We've played 2 games..why don't you not be so reactionary and let the season play out.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2017, 11:14:25 pm »

Never has been?  Arkansas?  What the hell is wrong with you?  Are you 12?  They changed the voting on the national title to AFTER the bowls the next year BECAUSE of Arkansas and the farce we made out of the AP awarding before bowls.  This never has been program did that.  Then we had the game of the century in 1969 when we were ranked #2.  1977 when we clobbered Oklahoma.  Top ten finishes under Petrino.  If your standard is matching Alabama's bazillion titles then every other college football program is a "never has been".  Also, I didn't say "built" by year three.  I said you should SEE what the coach is trying to do in year three.  Now, just because an exceptional coach like Petrino had Arkansas built in year 3 doesn't mean everyone can, but you should be seeing it all start to come together...more wins, closer losses, etc.  and, as I said, there is no way in Hell in year 5 you should look like a train wreck with no cohesive vision.

SWC only 4 of those schools made it to Power 5 conferences. Petrino won a lot of games but still lost all the big ones. We won the Cotton bowl woohoo
Logged

ZERO

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,715
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2017, 11:15:13 pm »

When you lose to Rutgers (while using a true Tight End at QB), lose to Toledo at home, lose to a soft Texas Tech at home, lose to Missouri twice, lose to Virginia Tech (while being non-existent in the 2nd half), and lose to TCU at home while only scoring 7 points, then it is known that it is time to move on.

The first time we lost to Missouri they had an 11-win team. That example isn't fair.


Edit: We shouldn't have lost to TCU that badly, but they could honestly end up returning to their '14 and '15 form. Patterson is a rare breed of coach and that school is damn lucky to have him. This may not be the strongest example by season's end, either. Instead, I'd point out that three of the four losses to A&M have been to what turned out to be pretty mediocre teams. We practically gift-wrapped two of them, and the third we had no business losing by freaking touchdowns.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2017, 11:16:27 pm »

When you lose to Rutgers (while using a true Tight End at QB), lose to Toledo at home, lose to a soft Texas Tech at home, lose to Missouri twice, lose to Virginia Tech (while being non-existent in the 2nd half), and lose to TCU at home while only scoring 7 points, then it is known that it is time to move on.

Go look at any of the hall of fame coaches and their losses before blowing up. It will hurt your agenda.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2017, 11:22:33 pm »

MSU actually went 5-7 and got into a Bowl due to a freak occurrence.

I'm aware and I wouldn't fire Bielema for a 6-7 season. It's not that freak of an occurrence good APR in SEC gets a bowl at 5-7. There will be more of the same this year.
Logged

ZERO

  • All-American Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,715
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2017, 11:24:45 pm »

I'm aware and I wouldn't fire Bielema for a 6-7 season. It's not that freak of an occurrence good APR in SEC gets a bowl at 5-7. There will be more of the same this year.

Maybe it's not a "freak occurrence", but it's not been a thing until the past couple of years when the number of bowls finally reached critical levels of stupidity. It might continue in the future, I guess it depends on how many teams struggle. Still doesn't change the fact that they lucked out.
Logged

GoHogs1091

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,127
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2017, 11:28:20 pm »

Go look at any of the hall of fame coaches and their losses before blowing up. It will hurt your agenda.

Doesn't matter what other coaches did.

Bielema is being judged on his own results/merits.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2017, 11:37:54 pm »

Doesn't matter what other coaches did.

Bielema is being judged on his own results/merits.

The merit of having more wins and players drafted at 47 than anyone in the country with only 1 losing season. If you can find a coach with more wins and players drafted at 47, I'll agree with you.
Logged

luke hawg

  • Senior
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,282
  • Surfing the web at Hogville.net
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2017, 11:39:57 pm »

He'll find one under 50
Logged

GoHogs1091

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,127
  • Hogville.net Rocks!
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2017, 11:55:50 pm »

The merit of having more wins and players drafted at 47 than anyone in the country with only 1 losing season. If you can find a coach with more wins and players drafted at 47, I'll agree with you.

There is still though the losses to;

Rutgers
Toledo
Texas Tech
Missouri
Virginia Tech

There is still the 4 losses to Texas A&M over 4 seasons.

There is still the 6 losses total to Auburn and Mississippi State over 4 seasons.

That is what ultimately matters.
Logged

OneTuskOverTheLine™

  • Hall of Fame Hogvillian
  • *******
  • Online Online
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 11,947
  • One tusk over the line sweet Jesus...
Re: How do you know a coach has plateaued and it's time to move on?
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2017, 07:02:20 am »

To answer your question, I'll say no, you do not get tired of everyone.

Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

KARK
KWNA
Fox 16 Arkansas