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Author Topic: An Observation  (Read 1055 times)

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Peter Porker

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An Observation
« on: September 13, 2017, 06:27:59 am »

I made this observation on Bo's show yesterday:

In 2014 we were the toughest team on the field. You didn't want to play the Razorbacks because even if you won, you were so beat up you'd probably lose the following week. We ran roughshod over TTU, played Bama to a 1 point game, smoked Ole Miss, and beat LSU. We ran the ball to impose our will. We had a wrecking ball for a fullback and we dominated the LOS.

Then we hired Enos and changed our DNA. No longer do we run to impose our will, but run the ball to set up the playaction. We run the ball now only the compliment to pass game. We rarely use the fullback. We are no longer a tough team. We are a finesse team.

Why did Bielema go away from what worked for him for so long?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:41:25 am by Peter Porker »
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Inhogswetrust

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 06:40:40 am »

Except we didn't change. We threw more than you might think prior to Enos arriving. Those running plays to set up the play action are running plays. IF they were more successful as they were prior to this year so far then your OP wouldn't be needed. I agree the dominating LOS is what is appears to be no longer there but remember that the first Allen QB also had to run for his life sometimes.
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jgphillips3

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 07:04:40 am »

Well, number one, all the Petrino recruits are gone.  Whatever you want to think about the man, his players played hard and were the core of our success in 2014 and 2015 (such as it was).  This team has become progressively soft then softer.  It is weird.  It's almost as if they are reflecting their head coach or something.
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buldozer

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 07:09:33 am »

Exactly right. When you look at the numbers the team has gotten progressively worse at running the ball each of the last three years.
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 08:18:22 am »

If Petrino recruits sustained us in 2014, where were they in 2012 and 2013?  A lot of our toughness (ability to run the ball) had to do with Denver Kirkland, Dan Skipper, Alex Collins, AJ Derby, and Hunter Henry (all Bielema recruits).  On the other hand a lot of the defensive players were Petrino holdovers.
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hogcard1964

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 08:22:46 am »

If Petrino recruits sustained us in 2014, where were they in 2012 and 2013?  A lot of our toughness (ability to run the ball) had to do with Denver Kirkland, Dan Skipper, Alex Collins, AJ Derby, and Hunter Henry (all Bielema recruits).  On the other hand a lot of the defensive players were Petrino holdovers.

The team was neutered at that point and no longer wanted to play in 2012 and '13.  Hate to say it but we're getting to that point again.  He may have already lost these kids, because they appear to have a lot of quit in them.
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2017, 08:30:39 am »

The team was neutered at that point and no longer wanted to play in 2012 and '13.  Hate to say it but we're getting to that point again.  He may have already lost these kids, because they appear to have a lot of quit in them.

There's probably a lot to that.  But back to the toughness, and the ability to move the ball on the ground, I remember being unable to run the football for much of 2011.
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Redhogs

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2017, 08:31:47 am »

If Petrino recruits sustained us in 2014, where were they in 2012 and 2013?  A lot of our toughness (ability to run the ball) had to do with Denver Kirkland, Dan Skipper, Alex Collins, AJ Derby, and Hunter Henry (all Bielema recruits).  On the other hand a lot of the defensive players were Petrino holdovers.
2012-2013 were a direct result of John L. Smith....another genius move by our AD.
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Hog Pharm

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2017, 08:37:17 am »

I made this observation on Bo's show yesterday:

In 2014 we were the toughest team on the field. You didn't want to play the Razorbacks because even if you won, you were so beat up you'd probably lose the following week. We ran roughshod over TTU, played Bama to a 1 point game, smoked Ole Miss, and beat LSU. We ran the ball to impose our will. We had a wrecking ball for a fullback and we dominated the LOS.

Then we hired Enos and changed our DNA. No longer do we run to impose our will, but run the ball to set up the playaction. We run the ball now only to compliment to pass game. We rarely use the fullback. We are no longer a tough team. We are a finesse team.

Why did Bielema go away from what worked for him for so long?

This^^^^

Our run game has declined each year under Enos.
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Malvin

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2017, 08:38:05 am »

I think as a general observation the team as a whole over the past 5+ years has gotten weaker and weaker.  When I say weaker I mean in terms of intensity and possessing the ability to knock somebody the f out.  This really started after Nutt left and has been a downward trend since then.  Having this type of intensity will not win games by its self but it plays an important role and is part of football no matter if you like it or not.

Think of TCU, we were getting destroyed by their defensive, obviously they had a better game plan, better players, better coaches and were beating us in just about every aspect of the game.  How do we win, what can you do next?  Well you get mad and you knock somebody the f out.  That means many things but mostly it means it's time for somebody to change the game... that's where intensity takes over.

In the Steelers/Browns game on Sunday you saw the Steelers doing this, Gray lit up a Browns receiver.. yes, he got a 15 yard penalty but he knocked that receiver out of the game and then the following passes were drops which shut the Browns down for a period of time.  That is what we miss.

How do you beat Bama, do you really think it's lining up every play and trying to straight up play against a team that gets 15 to 20 five star recruits?  No, you will never win that way.  You beat them because you need to have more intensity on your team then they have, you need to knock them the f out, get them out of their game plan or rhythm by changing the game.  Until we start doing that, we probably wont ever beat Bama again.

I'm not saying that players should try to get penalties because that hurts us.. but we need people who have the ability to change the game on the field.   We need players to get mad, get physical, get real physical.


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Peter Porker

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2017, 08:39:57 am »

Well, number one, all the Petrino recruits are gone.  Whatever you want to think about the man, his players played hard and were the core of our success in 2014 and 2015 (such as it was).  This team has become progressively soft then softer.  It is weird.  It's almost as if they are reflecting their head coach or something.

That's not accurate, at least offensively.
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GuvHog

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2017, 08:40:16 am »

There's probably a lot to that.  But back to the toughness, and the ability to move the ball on the ground, I remember being unable to run the football for much of 2011.

Actually the Hogs had a pretty good running game that year because their opponents had to respect the Hogs' high powered passing game. that's the reason they finished 11-2 overall and #5 in the nation.
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NaturalStateReb

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2017, 08:42:03 am »

When you go 7-6, you're not really imposing your will on teams.  The Alabama game was a close run affair in the rain and the best game Arkansas had played in a couple of years, while the Ole Miss victory was at home in bad weather the week after Ole Miss suffered a devastating loss to Auburn where Treadwell broke an ankle and fumbled what would have been the winning touchdown.  The victory over LSU came at home the week after the Tigers were battered in an overtime loss to Alabama.

The program shook off the ghost of John L. Smith in the back half of the season, but it shouldn't be oversold. 
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Hogdomer

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2017, 09:41:07 am »

When you go 7-6, you're not really imposing your will on teams.  The Alabama game was a close run affair in the rain and the best game Arkansas had played in a couple of years, while the Ole Miss victory was at home in bad weather the week after Ole Miss suffered a devastating loss to Auburn where Treadwell broke an ankle and fumbled what would have been the winning touchdown.  The victory over LSU came at home the week after the Tigers were battered in an overtime loss to Alabama.

The program shook off the ghost of John L. Smith in the back half of the season, but it shouldn't be oversold. 

We beat you 30-0.  It doesn't matter if it was in the rain and it doesn't matter who anyone played the week before.  LSU was never in the game and it was a shutout.  The point is that team was tougher and much better than the current team.  Year 5 should be better than year 2 and it's not even close.
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factchecker

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2017, 03:21:53 pm »

the Ole Miss victory was at home in bad weather the week after Ole Miss suffered a devastating loss to Auburn where Treadwell broke an ankle and fumbled what would have been the winning touchdown.

We kicked your ass 30-0.

Bielema is 3-1 vs. Ole Miss despite your program getting the best players it could buy.

Let that sink in, one of our worst coaches absolutely owned Ole Miss despite you buying recruits.

Oh wait...... It's all Houston Nutt's fault or all the violations go back to women's sports. Tell us again how Hugh had nothing to do with it.
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2017, 10:37:18 pm »

Actually the Hogs had a pretty good running game that year because their opponents had to respect the Hogs' high powered passing game. that's the reason they finished 11-2 overall and #5 in the nation.

No.  Actually we had problems running the ball.  We ranked 81st in the country for an average of 137 yards a game.  To put that in perspective we are currently ranked 58th with 182 yards per game.

We did throw it all over the yard though with 300 + yards a game.
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Hoggie17

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 10:44:54 pm »

CBB peaked in 2015 and has regressed since.
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Surfing8

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 10:46:23 pm »

There's probably a lot to that.  But back to the toughness, and the ability to move the ball on the ground, I remember being unable to run the football for much of 2011.

Load of crap.

2011 rushing yards - 1786
2011 rushing atts -    412
2011 Avg - 4.3

2016 rushing yards - 2135
2016 rushing atts -   517
2016 Avg - 4.1

Last year we only ran for 349 more yards in 105 more attempts, with less average.

Facts are fun. 

No.  Actually we had problems running the ball.  We ranked 81st in the country for an average of 137 yards a game.  To put that in perspective we are currently ranked 58th with 182 yards per game.

We did throw it all over the yard though with 300 + yards a game.

More crap.

If we had problems running the ball in 2011, then last year was pathetic. 
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jgphillips3

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 10:57:24 pm »

CBB peaked in 2015 and has regressed since.

Yep.  It is weird...but true.
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 11:02:15 pm »

Load of crap.

2011 rushing yards - 1786
2011 rushing atts -    412
2011 Avg - 4.3

2016 rushing yards - 2135
2016 rushing atts -   517
2016 Avg - 4.1

Last year we only ran for 349 more yards in 105 more attempts, with less average.

Facts are fun. 

More crap.

If we had problems running the ball in 2011, then last year was pathetic. 

You're not exactly breaking news there.  Last year was bad.  We couldn't get 3rd and short and couldn't punch it in the end zone.  Last year we ranked 78th.  We ranked 81st in rushing the ball in 2011. 

2014- 2015 is much different.  In 2014 we ran for 2834 yards.  The next year we ran for 2565 yards to rank 34th. 
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Surfing8

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 11:05:58 pm »

You're not exactly breaking news there.  Last year was bad.  We couldn't get 3rd and short and couldn't punch it in the end zone.  Last year we ranked 78th.  We ranked 81st in rushing the ball in 2011. 

2015 is much different.  We ran for 2565 yards to rank 34th.

Rushing #s in 2011 were a result of 'choice', not inability or toughness as you're trying to imply.

Plenty of people around here try to diminish the accomplishments during those years by saying we flung it all over the yard, but the reality is during the CBP years as a whole the rushing and passing ATTEMPTS were very balanced.

If Petrino had tried to run the ball a lot more to puff up the stat you're trying to make something out of, then the numbers would reflect that accordingly.
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ZERO

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 11:13:52 pm »

We beat you 30-0.  It doesn't matter if it was in the rain and it doesn't matter who anyone played the week before.  LSU was never in the game and it was a shutout.  The point is that team was tougher and much better than the current team.  Year 5 should be better than year 2 and it's not even close.
We kicked your ass 30-0.

Bielema is 3-1 vs. Ole Miss despite your program getting the best players it could buy.

Let that sink in, one of our worst coaches absolutely owned Ole Miss despite you buying recruits.

Oh wait...... It's all Houston Nutt's fault or all the violations go back to women's sports. Tell us again how Hugh had nothing to do with it.

Are the two of you honestly not aware that this 7,100 post moderator is actually an Arkansas fan?
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2017, 11:20:15 pm »

Rushing #s in 2011 were a result of 'choice', not inability or toughness as you're trying to imply.

Plenty of people around here try to diminish the accomplishments during those years by saying we flung it all over the yard, but the reality is during the CBP years as a whole the rushing and passing ATTEMPTS were very balanced.

If Petrino had tried to run the ball a lot more to puff up the stat you're trying to make something out of, then the numbers would reflect that accordingly.

I'm definitely not trying to diminish Petrino's accomplishments.  He did what he had to do to win.  In 2011 he had a RS JR QB and the best group of wide outs we've ever seen at Arkansas.  On the other hand the running backs were led by Ronnie Wingo and Kody Walker.  Knile Davis was hurt early on in training camp.  I remember games where we would work on running the ball only to see Petrino say "screw it" and pass for the easy touchdown.  Remember the A&M game?  Trying to establish the running game early put us behind.  Petrino changed the defense at half and unleashed Wilson and Wright to win the game. 

They were a fun team to watch.  A very good team.  But they weren't a running team.
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mckinneyhog5

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2017, 11:21:57 pm »

How many CWS has DVH won? Fire him!
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onebadrubi

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2017, 11:26:26 pm »

Well, number one, all the Petrino recruits are gone.  Whatever you want to think about the man, his players played hard and were the core of our success in 2014 and 2015 (such as it was).  This team has become progressively soft then softer.  It is weird.  It's almost as if they are reflecting their head coach or something.

Ahhh don't go so far with that.  It was a true mix of petrino and Bielema recruits.  The leaders of those teams mentioned, allen flowers, wise, Williams, Collins, henry, Kirkland, skipper, Martrell, and even Ellis.
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WilsonHog

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2017, 11:26:55 pm »

How many CWS has DVH won? Fire him!

Yet another false equivalency.

Getting to the CWS but not winning it = a four year record below .500.
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onebadrubi

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2017, 11:31:32 pm »

Are the two of you honestly not aware that this 7,100 post moderator is actually an Arkansas fan?

He sure takes up for Ole Piss a lot not to be a fan of them.  He's a mod because of a friendship if I had to take a guess. 
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onebadrubi

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2017, 11:32:13 pm »

Yet another false equivalency.

Getting to the CWS but not winning it = a four year record below .500.

I think he was being sarcastic.
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mckinneyhog5

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2017, 11:33:25 pm »

I think he was being sarcastic.
Thank you..
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Surfing8

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2017, 11:59:56 pm »

I'm definitely not trying to diminish Petrino's accomplishments.  He did what he had to do to win.  In 2011 he had a RS JR QB and the best group of wide outs we've ever seen at Arkansas.  On the other hand the running backs were led by Ronnie Wingo and Kody Walker.  Knile Davis was hurt early on in training camp.  I remember games where we would work on running the ball only to see Petrino say "screw it" and pass for the easy touchdown.  Remember the A&M game?  Trying to establish the running game early put us behind.  Petrino changed the defense at half and unleashed Wilson and Wright to win the game. 

They were a fun team to watch.  A very good team.  But they weren't a running team.

No.

Let's try this again -
Dennis Johnson
Wingo Jr.
Broderick Green

Those were the top 3 backs in 2011.

Dennis Johnson was TOUGHER than any of the backs (or possibly anyone period) we have on today's roster.
Just ask Florida.

Oh, and another stat -
2011 Rushing TDs - 25
2016 Rushing TDs - 21

Bielema mediocrity in the running game, indeed.
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ZERO

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2017, 12:01:55 am »

He sure takes up for Ole Piss a lot not to be a fan of them.  He's a mod because of a friendship if I had to take a guess.

He wasn't even defending them in that post. Ole Miss was mentioned with a handful of other teams.
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factchecker

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2017, 05:06:45 am »

Are the two of you honestly not aware that this 7,100 post moderator is actually an Arkansas fan?

No he's not.

He was pissed when we beat his rebels with 4th and 25.

He refers to Ole Miss as we:

Plus we're Memphis' super bowl. They played great, we played bad, got beat.

He is a rebel fan..... which is fine.  He a great mod too.
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The Boar War

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2017, 06:55:45 am »

No.

Let's try this again -
Dennis Johnson
Wingo Jr.
Broderick Green

Those were the top 3 backs in 2011.

Dennis Johnson was TOUGHER than any of the backs (or possibly anyone period) we have on today's roster.
Just ask Florida.

Oh, and another stat -
2011 Rushing TDs - 25
2016 Rushing TDs - 21

Bielema mediocrity in the running game, indeed.

You're right.  I forgot about Dennis Johnson being a part of that team.

Aside from that I'm not sure what we're arguing.  Do you believe that either the 2011 or 2016 teams (or possibly both) were great rushing teams?  They really weren't.  So showing me stats that the 2011 team rushed for 4 more touchdowns than a  2016 team (which also couldn't run the ball) really isn't showing much of anything.
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Surfing8

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Re: An Observation
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2017, 09:36:40 am »

You're right.  I forgot about Dennis Johnson being a part of that team.

Aside from that I'm not sure what we're arguing.  Do you believe that either the 2011 or 2016 teams (or possibly both) were great rushing teams?  They really weren't.  So showing me stats that the 2011 team rushed for 4 more touchdowns than a  2016 team (which also couldn't run the ball) really isn't showing much of anything.

It's really simple.  You questioned the 2011 team's toughness and ability to run the football -

There's probably a lot to that.  But back to the toughness, and the ability to move the ball on the ground, I remember being unable to run the football for much of 2011.

...and I'm telling you the 2011 team's rushing stats you're trying to frame are a result of 'choice', and not lack of toughness.

I'm still thinking about it and I haven't seen a level of toughness out of ANYONE on this team similar to what we witnessed with Dennis Johnson.
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