The reason I hate Duke

[fire_hog]

So I was thinking of how terrible the SEC refs have been (across the board) this year, and got to thinking about Duke, and how they seem to ALWAYS get calls, especially late in the game. I did a little research, and was surprised at the disparity. I expected a bias, but DAMN.

Duke has been to the line 254 more times than their opponent this year, 692 to 438. 254 more times! This includes:

39-10 against Temple

43-11 against Florida St.

37-13 against Boston College

26-4 against Boston U

                                            I hate Duke.

[HawgWyld]

Hating Duke is always a good idea, regardless of the reason. I'm sick and damn tired of hearing the East Coast sports media predict that Duke will win the NCAA championship every year. Hell, they've probably already picked them to win in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, but won't predict farther for fear of being too speculative in their analysis.

[LA HAWG]

Duke=

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

So you only have one reason?

[silvertip]

Season after season, Duke makes more FTs than their opponents attempt---according to the TV guys who seem to say this every game. Which is to be expected when you have future Popes & Saints like Grant Hill playing for you.

[Boner]

Ihate Duke as much as anyone, but probably the main reason they get to the line so much is that they're coached well.  They have good players that know what to do, and know how to draw fouls.

They also have a coach who will get all over the refs.

[nwarazfan]

So I was thinking of how terrible the SEC refs have been (across the board) this year, and got to thinking about Duke, and how they seem to ALWAYS get calls, especially late in the game. I did a little research, and was surprised at the disparity. I expected a bias, but DAMN.

Duke has been to the line 254 more times than their opponent this year, 692 to 438. 254 more times! This includes:

39-10 against Temple

43-11 against Florida St.

37-13 against Boston College

26-4 against Boston U

                                            I hate Duke.

Try watching them and maybe you would understand.  Sheldon Williams is tough to guard inside especially one on one without fouling.  And Duke's spacing and exterior shooting makes it hard for a defense to double down on Williams.  This spacing also allows for guard penetration which leads to fouls.  And JJ Redick is grabbed and held coming off screens on almost every offensive possession.  Lastly, Duke is usually winning late in games which means their opponents foul them.  Check into how many FT's they get the last 3 minutes.

[CarolinaHog1176]

Ihate Duke as much as anyone, but probably the main reason they get to the line so much is that they're coached well.  They have good players that know what to do, and know how to draw fouls.

They also have a coach who will get all over the refs.

so they know how to do the Vlade Divac flop?  they barely get touched and they flop around like a fish?  but then somebody from the other team will drive in, get clobbered by sheldon williams, but is there a call?  more than likely no.  I grew up a Carolina fan and now live close to chapel hill so I've always hated Duke.  they know how to play the gam though... and I'm not talking about basketball.  they know how to play "get the call."

[hogfan064]

I hate DUke, but I will pull for them against North Carolina. Tarheel fans are some of the worst that exist in America(I've decided Austin is no longer a part of America)

[fire_hog]

Try watching them and maybe you would understand.  Sheldon Williams is tough to guard inside especially one on one without fouling.  And Duke's spacing and exterior shooting makes it hard for a defense to double down on Williams.  This spacing also allows for guard penetration which leads to fouls.  And JJ Redick is grabbed and held coming off screens on almost every offensive possession. 

   Oh, I've watched them several times this year, how can you not? Seems like they're on TV more than Seinfeld. There is no way you can convince me a guard-oriented team should consistently shoot more FTs than a team who pounds it inside. Even if that were the case this year, would it explain the same situation EVERY year?

  Lastly, Duke is usually winning late in games which means their opponents foul them.  Check into how many FT's they get the last 3 minutes.

I count 5 games Duke has won by less than 5 points, North Carolina, Va Tech, Florida St., Boston College, and Memphis. You would expect such close games to be pretty even in the foul dept. Not so, Duke went to the line a total of 150 times. Their opponents? 65. A bigger margin than when they blow their opponent out. That theory is debunked. Now why would Duke get seemingly ALL the calls late in close games? Hmmmm....

[TXrazorback]

Duke smells like poo

[nwarazfan]

Try watching them and maybe you would understand.  Sheldon Williams is tough to guard inside especially one on one without fouling.  And Duke's spacing and exterior shooting makes it hard for a defense to double down on Williams.  This spacing also allows for guard penetration which leads to fouls.  And JJ Redick is grabbed and held coming off screens on almost every offensive possession. 

   Oh, I've watched them several times this year, how can you not? Seems like they're on TV more than Seinfeld. There is no way you can convince me a guard-oriented team should consistently shoot more FTs than a team who pounds it inside. Even if that were the case this year, would it explain the same situation EVERY year?

  Lastly, Duke is usually winning late in games which means their opponents foul them.  Check into how many FT's they get the last 3 minutes.

I count 5 games Duke has won by less than 5 points, North Carolina, Va Tech, Florida St., Boston College, and Memphis. You would expect such close games to be pretty even in the foul dept. Not so, Duke went to the line a total of 150 times. Their opponents? 65. A bigger margin than when they blow their opponent out. That theory is debunked. Now why would Duke get seemingly ALL the calls late in close games? Hmmmm....

Again, it goes back to both style of play and quality of players both inside and out.  They are tough to defend especially with their use of the 3 pt shot.  That has opened up the middle for Elton Brand and Sheldon Williams or penetration by Jason Williams, Duhon, Nelson, etc.  which breaks the defense down and creates one on one situations.  Due to the skill of the Duke players its usually foul or give up the easy shot.  Part of the game is getting to the foul line. 

This past weekend vs Temple, the Owls fouled Duke and JJ mulitple times in the closing minutes and Duke won by more than 5.  Just because they won many games by more than 5 doesn't mean games weren't close enough in the final minutes for teams to foul.

[Hogs4Ever]

I hate all ACC teams.  Duke and UNC top the list though.   

[GrizzledHogFan]

You don't actually need a reason to hate Duke, you know.  It's OK to hate them just because they're Duke.

[fire_hog]

This past weekend vs Temple, the Owls fouled Duke and JJ mulitple times in the closing minutes and Duke won by more than 5.  Just because they won many games by more than 5 doesn't mean games weren't close enough in the final minutes for teams to foul.

   That reasoning is flawed, and doesn't address my point of close games. Of course some games are closer until the final minute or so when the team that is trailing has to foul. That's why I threw wins over 5 points out. I'm talking about the true nail-biters. The games where at most there is a couple of fouls in the final seconds committed by Duke's opponent. I truly believe at the very least there is an "M.J" factor at work, where officials are protecting a superstar program. 150 attempts to 65. That stat does not lie.

[silvertip]

Duke gets more calls because the "good" Refs listen to their masters---the TV guys. The TV guys push Duke in EVERY telecast, constantly pick Duke for next year's #1---in the post game wrap-up after this year's NCAAT Championship game.

Guys like Dookie Vitale & Billy Pecker can't keep up with the starter's names on the opponent playing Duke, but they can tell you the shoe & jock size of every player on Duke's roster. As well as where they went to high school & their high school coach's name.

Then, after a brief break to talk about Italian restaurants, they will launch into their discussion of the MacDonald'a AAs that Duke is recruiting for the next 2 years.

Watch these clowns question the Ref's calls that go against Duke, and more importantly, praise the "great no-calls" when Duke's guys repeatedly strip the ball on every drive, make amazing blocks, never charge, & in general just mug the opponents. 

[nwarazfan]

This past weekend vs Temple, the Owls fouled Duke and JJ mulitple times in the closing minutes and Duke won by more than 5.  Just because they won many games by more than 5 doesn't mean games weren't close enough in the final minutes for teams to foul.

   That reasoning is flawed, and doesn't address my point of close games. Of course some games are closer until the final minute or so when the team that is trailing has to foul. That's why I threw wins over 5 points out. I'm talking about the true nail-biters. The games where at most there is a couple of fouls in the final seconds committed by Duke's opponent. I truly believe at the very least there is an "M.J" factor at work, where officials are protecting a superstar program. 150 attempts to 65. That stat does not lie.

Watch how physical teams play JJ this week and in the ACC T and how many fouls are called on the defenders.  Watch the jersey grabbing and the arm grabbing and tell me how many of those fouls aren't called. 

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

Duke smells like poo

That's why we call them Dookie!

[silverhawg]

ya know what pissed me off at duke? when we beat em & won the national championship...the stupid sports writers et all espn...all of em..was more concerned about saying how duke lost the nc, instead of giving the hogs their credit...i may be wrong, but it seems to me, they went & talked to the duke coach before they approached nolan...anyway..I say avoid the rush..hate duke year round....

[HawgWyld]

ya know what pissed me off at duke? when we beat em & won the national championship...the stupid sports writers et all espn...all of em..was more concerned about saying how duke lost the nc, instead of giving the hogs their credit...

That was annoying as hell. By the way, you know what's better than winning an NCAA national championship? Beating Duke to get it. Just for fun, I wish the Hogs would add Duke to the nonconference football schedule. Replace one of the directional schools with Duke then just tee up and kick the crap out of 'em every year. Heh, heh.

[berryhog]

Watch how physical teams play JJ this week and in the ACC T and how many fouls are called on the defenders.  Watch the jersey grabbing and the arm grabbing and tell me how many of those fouls aren't called. 

I'm not a Duke fan, but I would have to agree with that. 

[wacohog]

I would love for Arkansas to have so much success again in Basketball and Football that other teams hate us with the type of passion displayed on this thread. We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

I have no problem admitting that.  Same reason I hate the Yankees and the Lakers.  Granted I am a Braves fan and they are good, but I was a Braves fan before they were good and I will continue to be whether they finish first or last.

[HawgWyld]

We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

I have no problem admitting that.  Same reason I hate the Yankees and the Lakers.  Granted I am a Braves fan and they are good, but I was a Braves fan before they were good and I will continue to be whether they finish first or last.

It could be worse. I have the great misfortune of being a Pittsburgh Pirates fan. I do believe they are mathematically eliminated from the World Series around May each year

[Pyotr Tchaikhogsky]

We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

I have no problem admitting that.  Same reason I hate the Yankees and the Lakers.  Granted I am a Braves fan and they are good, but I was a Braves fan before they were good and I will continue to be whether they finish first or last.

It could be worse. I have the great misfortune of being a Pittsburgh Pirates fan. I do believe they are mathematically eliminated from the World Series around May each year

Understood.  My wife is a Cubs fan.

[HawgWyld]

Understood.  My wife is a Cubs fan.

That may actually be worse than rooting for Pittsburgh. After the Pirates blow it every year, I retreat to my fallback position of rooting for St. Louis. I don't think a Cubs fan would be caught dead doing that!

[HogInaStrangeLand]

I hate DUke, but I will pull for them against North Carolina. Tarheel fans are some of the worst that exist in America(I've decided Austin is no longer a part of America)

That Austin comment was hilarious.

[HogInaStrangeLand]

I would love for Arkansas to have so much success again in Basketball and Football that other teams hate us with the type of passion displayed on this thread. We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

Nah, that ain't the only reason...
That line of reasoning would lead most teams to HATE the Atlanta Braves, yet few people really seem to hate the Braves.

though Duke and Texas are good teams and I hate both of them...look at our recent play (last dozen years or so) AGAINST both teams, we do just fine.

[hogsNbeer]

The first Bama vs Hogs game....... Bama shot 33 FTs to the HOGS 9, I think....... I guess Bama gets all the calls too every game..........  I enjoy a good game of basketball...   Face it, Duke is the best in the land right now.....  They play more aggressive than most college teams in america.... they are going to draw many a foul on the opposing team just for this reason....It's not because Coach K hounds the refs butts, which he does....I know many coaches that do that....  Aggresiveness is what they are taught week in and week out....   There is no conspiracy between the NCAA and the networks........ Sorry, but the games aren't fixed...........   Duke has earned whatever they've won.....geez............. This thread is almost comical.............Smite THIS!!!!!

[wishyjoshy]

I hate DUke, but I will pull for them against North Carolina. Tarheel fans are some of the worst that exist in America(I've decided Austin is no longer a part of America)

That Austin comment was hilarious.

Damnit!  I've loved UNC forever.  Maybe that makes your point for you, though!!!

As far as Duke getting to the line more, what about the BC and FSU games?  There are games like that, where the refs make a call beneficial to Duke at CLUTCH moments.

[fire_hog]

The first Bama vs Hogs game....... Bama shot 33 FTs to the HOGS 9, I think....... I guess Bama gets all the calls too every game.......... 

That game was a farce, although Bama doesn't get all the calls every game, only the ones at home, just like most if not all SEC teams. We definitely have an officials problem here, it's just a different one than Duke's situation.

Face it, Duke is the best in the land right now..... 

Would we be talking about Duke being the best team in the land if those 5 games would have been called straight up? We might be talking about a 4 loss team, and why they are down this year.

They play more aggressive than most college teams in america.... they are going to draw many a foul on the opposing team just for this reason....It's not because Coach K hounds the refs butts, which he does....I know many coaches that do that....  Aggresiveness is what they are taught week in and week out....   There is no conspiracy between the NCAA and the networks........ Sorry, but the games aren't fixed...........   Duke has earned whatever they've won.....geez............. This thread is almost comical.............Smite THIS!!!!!

  I don't know if anyone on this thread actually said games were fixed in Duke's favor. My point is that in 95% of close games, Duke goes to the line FAR more than their opponent. Some of this may be due to players and coaching an "aggressive" style of ball (although you would think being aggressive= player control fouls, at least sometimes), but MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH? Whether it's officials giving the benefit of the doubt to Duke on close calls, or the NCAA protecting a cash cow in Duke, I don't know. I do know if the game's tied with 10 seconds left, and JJ Redick plows into someone, don't bet the farm it's going to be called a charge.

[HogInaStrangeLand]

For the record

     Arkansas played as aggressive as anyone, AND was usually winning at the end of the game under Nolan.

     I'm willing to bet that we didn't get lop-sided FT attempts like Duke.

     I could be wrong, someone please check on this if you could.

[nwarazfan]

For the record

     Arkansas played as aggressive as anyone, AND was usually winning at the end of the game under Nolan.

     I'm willing to bet that we didn't get lop-sided FT attempts like Duke.

     I could be wrong, someone please check on this if you could.

Now with Nolan's style of defense with the reach in's and hand checks and ripping the ball out, how do you think we would compare in FTA's?

[wishyjoshy]

I saw the Coach K interview on ESPN this week.  He address the "Duke Bias" issue.  He said that when you say that there is a bias, you have to be careful of what you are saying.  Are you saying that games are fixed?  If so, then you are calling into question the integrity of the refs and everyone associated with the game.  He went on to say that humans are involved and when humans are involved, there is never going to be anyone who is 100% objective.  Each ref on the court has his own bias built in, whether he wants it or not.  Sometimes Duke gets lucky.  ie. Boston College and Florida State.  (This is obviously paraphrased.)

The point that I don't get is when Duke goes up against a team and the game is called tight on both sides, Duke loses.  There will be a game in the tourney where there is a group of officials (probably SEC or Big East) who will call the game tight.  Duke will lose. 

BTW - Sheldon Williams will be a flop in the league.  He will be dominated. 

[hogsNbeer]

The first Bama vs Hogs game....... Bama shot 33 FTs to the HOGS 9, I think....... I guess Bama gets all the calls too every game.......... 

That game was a farce, although Bama doesn't get all the calls every game, only the ones at home, just like most if not all SEC teams. We definitely have an officials problem here, it's just a different one than Duke's situation.

Face it, Duke is the best in the land right now..... 

Would we be talking about Duke being the best team in the land if those 5 games would have been called straight up? We might be talking about a 4 loss team, and why they are down this year.

They play more aggressive than most college teams in america.... they are going to draw many a foul on the opposing team just for this reason....It's not because Coach K hounds the refs butts, which he does....I know many coaches that do that....  Aggresiveness is what they are taught week in and week out....   There is no conspiracy between the NCAA and the networks........ Sorry, but the games aren't fixed...........   Duke has earned whatever they've won.....geez............. This thread is almost comical.............Smite THIS!!!!!

  I don't know if anyone on this thread actually said games were fixed in Duke's favor. My point is that in 95% of close games, Duke goes to the line FAR more than their opponent. Some of this may be due to players and coaching an "aggressive" style of ball (although you would think being aggressive= player control fouls, at least sometimes), but MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH? Whether it's officials giving the benefit of the doubt to Duke on close calls, or the NCAA protecting a cash cow in Duke, I don't know. I do know if the game's tied with 10 seconds left, and JJ Redick plows into someone, don't bet the farm it's going to be called a charge.

Fire, I agree there's something wrong..... I'm no huge fan of Duke...I like them, and I like Coach K..... but my deal is this..... A). I've watched many of basketball game, as I know you have also-- there are games every week where there is shiite load of Fts from one team, and no many by another...... Not just Duke...Duke is just the #1 team almost every year at some point and some people are pissed at that notion because their team is not as good.....B) Duke does not own the officials..... There is no conspiracy by the powers that be for Duke to get all the calls...... and I do agree with Coach K's assessment the other night, I saw it as well........
The Duke game on Tuesday before they played Temple...I can't remember who it was.... but they had the free throw attempts lopsided to Duke's...I think something like 30+ to 10 or 15...Not in Duke's favor...... but they came back and still won......   

[nwarazfan]

The first Bama vs Hogs game....... Bama shot 33 FTs to the HOGS 9, I think....... I guess Bama gets all the calls too every game.......... 

That game was a farce, although Bama doesn't get all the calls every game, only the ones at home, just like most if not all SEC teams. We definitely have an officials problem here, it's just a different one than Duke's situation.

Face it, Duke is the best in the land right now..... 

Would we be talking about Duke being the best team in the land if those 5 games would have been called straight up? We might be talking about a 4 loss team, and why they are down this year.

They play more aggressive than most college teams in america.... they are going to draw many a foul on the opposing team just for this reason....It's not because Coach K hounds the refs butts, which he does....I know many coaches that do that....  Aggresiveness is what they are taught week in and week out....   There is no conspiracy between the NCAA and the networks........ Sorry, but the games aren't fixed...........   Duke has earned whatever they've won.....geez............. This thread is almost comical.............Smite THIS!!!!!

  I don't know if anyone on this thread actually said games were fixed in Duke's favor. My point is that in 95% of close games, Duke goes to the line FAR more than their opponent. Some of this may be due to players and coaching an "aggressive" style of ball (although you would think being aggressive= player control fouls, at least sometimes), but MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH? Whether it's officials giving the benefit of the doubt to Duke on close calls, or the NCAA protecting a cash cow in Duke, I don't know. I do know if the game's tied with 10 seconds left, and JJ Redick plows into someone, don't bet the farm it's going to be called a charge.

Fire, I agree there's something wrong..... I'm no huge fan of Duke...I like them, and I like Coach K..... but my deal is this..... A). I've watched many of basketball game, as I know you have also-- there are games every week where there is shiite load of Fts from one team, and no many by another...... Not just Duke...Duke is just the #1 team almost every year at some point and some people are pissed at that notion because their team is not as good.....B) Duke does not own the officials..... There is no conspiracy by the powers that be for Duke to get all the calls...... and I do agree with Coach K's assessment the other night, I saw it as well........
The Duke game on Tuesday before they played Temple...I can't remember who it was.... but they had the free throw attempts lopsided to Duke's...I think something like 30+ to 10 or 15...Not in Duke's favor...... but they came back and still won......  

It was last week at Ga Tech. 

[HogsRule]

I saw the Coach K interview on ESPN this week.  He address the "Duke Bias" issue.  He said that when you say that there is a bias, you have to be careful of what you are saying.  Are you saying that games are fixed?  If so, then you are calling into question the integrity of the refs and everyone associated with the game.  He went on to say that humans are involved and when humans are involved, there is never going to be anyone who is 100% objective.  Each ref on the court has his own bias built in, whether he wants it or not.  Sometimes Duke gets lucky.  ie. Boston College and Florida State.  (This is obviously paraphrased.)

The point that I don't get is when Duke goes up against a team and the game is called tight on both sides, Duke loses.  There will be a game in the tourney where there is a group of officials (probably SEC or Big East) who will call the game tight.  Duke will lose. 

BTW - Sheldon Williams will be a flop in the league.  He will be dominated. 

I saw that with Coach K. It sounded like he was just avoiding the question. He knows they get way more calls, but instead of answering it he turned the question around. He never said it wasn't lopsided, just questioned the question.

[Lokirain]

I like Duke just fine, we seem to get the best of them when it matters (1994). You want to talk about a school that HATES Duke, visit Lexington, KY. Christian Laettner is a wanted man there.

[silvertip]

I would love for Arkansas to have so much success again in Basketball and Football that other teams hate us with the type of passion displayed on this thread. We only hate Duke because they are good...very good.

"We"? Speak for yourself.

I hate Duke because they are Media Darlings. They get 10 times the media attention than any other BB program & that is ridiculous. The TV networks do most of their recruiting for them, just as they do with Notre Dame.

[wincrimson]

They don't cheat at all.

1) They are better than anybody else and are always ahead at the end of the game... causing every team to foul at the end of the game to try to work themselves back into the game

2) They are more agressive than any other team that I watch. Every other squad looks so soft compared to the Blue Devils.

[Patch]

I'm no Duke fan, but it sounds like more on here are more jealous than logical of the Blue Debbils. Would you like Arkansas to

A. - Get a Top 5 recruiting class every year
B. - Be shown on national TV every week, or every other week (especially for you out of staters)
C. - Be a contender for the National Championship just about every year
D. - Be talked about in the media circles weekly
E. - Have the questionable calls in your favor (Don't tell me with all the bitching I hear about officiating, that you  don't want the benefit of the doubt on calls in Razorback games.)

If you want the above, and still hate Duke, then you're jealous. I'll admit I am.

[Lokirain]

I'm no Duke fan, but it sounds like more on here are more jealous than logical of the Blue Debbils. Would you like Arkansas to

A. - Get a Top 5 recruiting class every year
B. - Be shown on national TV every week, or every other week (especially for you out of staters)
C. - Be a contender for the National Championship just about every year
D. - Be talked about in the media circles weekly
E. - Have the questionable calls in your favor (Don't tell me with all the bitching I hear about officiating, that you  don't want the benefit of the doubt on calls in Razorback games.)

If you want the above, and still hate Duke, then you're jealous. I'll admit I am.

Yes to all the above. Duke is a great basketball program, good for them. But wait until football season rolls around and count the Duke fans then. If you spot one let me know.

[94 Hawg]

I have a lot of respect for Coach K and the program he has built. Small school, old facilities, tough conference etc.. but he just keeps feeding the monster. They win b/c they are well coached.

[Lokirain]

Now if this is a I hate JJ Reddick thread.... Where do I sign up? That kid is obnoxious.

[rok-dog]

I hate Duke because they are gay................

[attachment deleted by admin]

[fire_hog]

My favorite Duke Photos:

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[SC Hogman]

I hate Duke, but I will pull for them against North Carolina. Tarheel fans are some of the worst that exist in America(I've decided Austin is no longer a part of America)

That Austin comment was hilarious.

Damnit!  I've loved UNC forever.  Maybe that makes your point for you, though!!!

As far as Duke getting to the line more, what about the BC and FSU games?  There are games like that, where the refs make a call beneficial to Duke at CLUTCH moments.

Have you watched UNC games they get by with murder?  Chapel Hill makes Austin seem like an All American City.

[SC Hogman]

I hate Duke because they are gay................

Wrong school all the alternative life styles are in Chapel Hill.

[Hog_from_Tulsa]

Duke gets more calls because the "good" Refs listen to their masters---the TV guys. The TV guys push Duke in EVERY telecast, constantly pick Duke for next year's #1---in the post game wrap-up after this year's NCAAT Championship game.

Guys like Dookie Vitale & Billy Pecker can't keep up with the starter's names on the opponent playing Duke, but they can tell you the shoe & jock size of every player on Duke's roster. As well as where they went to high school & their high school coach's name.

Then, after a brief break to talk about Italian restaurants, they will launch into their discussion of the MacDonald'a AAs that Duke is recruiting for the next 2 years.

Watch these clowns question the Ref's calls that go against Duke, and more importantly, praise the "great no-calls" when Duke's guys repeatedly strip the ball on every drive, make amazing blocks, never charge, & in general just mug the opponents. 

That's a good point......I remember very clearly Billy Packer virtually guaranteeing that Duke would beat us in the 94 title game because Duke "played smarter"......

I wonder what Billy was thinking when Scotty drilled the shot.....SI called it "pretty smart play".

[CarolinaHog1176]

Christian Laetner and Bobby Hurley are reason enough to hate the dookies.  they had to have been roommates because they looked like a couple of butt rapers if there ever were any.