Nolan's Early Years vs. Stan's Early Years

[Junkyard Hog]

I do think that we should give Stan a pass during his first year here and from my thinking, that would make this past year his 4th year that you have been really grading him.  You either give him the pass or you don't.  IMO, with the pass he gets his "5th year", without the pass he already had his 5th year.  Just all depends on how you want to look at it.  I think he has yet to have his real "5th year".

First of all, I don't give anyone a free pass.  Second, whether you do or not, this is still Heath's fifth year.  What I mean by that is he has all of his players here now.  He started recruiting in that first year, whether you call it a pass or not.  He has all of his players now just like Nolan had all of his in year 5.  We see the results of what each coach did with his own players in year 5.  If you want to call next year Heath's fifth year, that's fine with me.  But I doubt you expect them to go 30-5 and reach the Final Four.

[echogfan40]

    Neither did Satchell, Gomez, Darnell Robinson, Phillip McKellar or Cannon Whitby. What is your point?

    I guess Beverly, Weems and Brewer did?

I think we all know Nolan would have won big time with the current talent. He can coach and Stan can't. I like Stan however, wish he could get it done.

[echogfan40]

NOLAN RICHARDSON AT ARKANSAS

Year 85-86 86-87 87-88 88-89 89-90

Overall Record 12-16 19-14 21-9 25-7 30-5

Postseason No Tournament NIT #11 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #6 seed Nova #5 seed in NCAAT, beat #12 seed Loyola in 1st round, lost to #4 seed Louisville in 2nd round #4 seed in NCAAT, went to the Final Four and lost to #3 seed Duke

STAN HEATH AT ARKANSAS

Year 02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08

Overall Record 9-19 12-16 18-12 22-10 21-14 ??-??

Postseason No Tournament No Tournament (had the 8th youngest team in the nation this year) Turned down NIT bid #8 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #9 seed Bucknell #12 seed in NCAAT, lost to #5 seed USC in 1st round ?? ?? ??

We all know what Nolan did following these first 5 years.  If you give SH a pass on his first year here (which most are willing to do), then he is right on pace with what Nolan did in his first 5 years here.  If Stan is able to keep this pace, then we are looking at a very good year next year and possibly for many years to come.

I've been back and forth many times on whether or not we should keep Stan or cut our losses and move on.  I even started a thread the night that we lost the game to USC that said we need a new HC and Stan just wasn't getting it done (which I believe was emotion talking more than logic).  The fact is, that he did what the PTB asked of him (made the NCAAT) and should be retained because of that.  I think we should stick with Stan and show him that we believe in him and in the end I believe we will be pleasantly surprised with the results. :razorback: GO HOGS! :razorback:

It's not even close. Nolan had 25 more w's than stan over the five years and five tourney wins to none. No passes are to be given. He coached that first year correct? I am also tire of the youth excuses year after year. Other teams lose players as well and seem to reload fine.

[ehogfan08]

Care to elaborate how so?  He has been step for step as good as Nolan up until this last year, a year in which three 1000 point scorers either graduated or left for the NBA, and this included 3 starters and the #1 PG off the bench, and Nolan had none of his players leave early for the NBA in his first 4 years at Arkansas.  Stan deserves another year here at Arkansas.

You have GOT to be kidding. Are we seriously looking at the same numbers?

NOLAN RICHARDSON AT ARKANSAS

Year 85-86 86-87 87-88 88-89 89-90

Overall Record 12-16 19-14 21-9 25-7 30-5

Postseason No Tournament NIT #11 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #6 seed Nova #5 seed in NCAAT, beat #12 seed Loyola in 1st round, lost to #4 seed Louisville in 2nd round #4 seed in NCAAT, went to the Final Four and lost to #3 seed Duke

STAN HEATH AT ARKANSAS

Year 02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08

Overall Record 9-19 12-16 18-12 22-10 21-14 ??-??

Postseason No Tournament No Tournament (had the 8th youngest team in the nation this year) Turned down NIT bid #8 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #9 seed Bucknell #12 seed in NCAAT, lost to #5 seed USC in 1st round ?? ?? ??

Why in the world would you give stan a pass. those loses don't get thrown out the window if the fans feel they want to.
And even if you did. Nolan STILL got further in his first 4 years! ( a number 5 seed AND into the 2nd round of the tourney )
Then after that, just for kicks. and EVEN HIGHER SEED and get this...the final four. crazy. how could he do such a thing and not be kicked out immediately.

12>8. We lost to a higher seeded team because we weren't seeded high enough to get a team we could more easily handle.

You are absolutely ridiculous.

[donk]

This is a stupid argument.  Nolan could have taken this year's second string to the sweet 16.  Don't insult Nolan with this comparison.

[ColumbianHog]

NOLAN RICHARDSON AT ARKANSAS

Year 85-86 86-87 87-88 88-89 89-90

Overall Record 12-16 19-14 21-9 25-7 30-5

Postseason No Tournament NIT #11 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #6 seed Nova #5 seed in NCAAT, beat #12 seed Loyola in 1st round, lost to #4 seed Louisville in 2nd round #4 seed in NCAAT, went to the Final Four and lost to #3 seed Duke

STAN HEATH AT ARKANSAS

Year 02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08

Overall Record 9-19 12-16 18-12 22-10 21-14 ??-??

Postseason No Tournament No Tournament (had the 8th youngest team in the nation this year) Turned down NIT bid #8 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #9 seed Bucknell #12 seed in NCAAT, lost to #5 seed USC in 1st round ?? ?? ??

We all know what Nolan did following these first 5 years.  If you give SH a pass on his first year here (which most are willing to do), then he is right on pace with what Nolan did in his first 5 years here.  If Stan is able to keep this pace, then we are looking at a very good year next year and possibly for many years to come.

I've been back and forth many times on whether or not we should keep Stan or cut our losses and move on.  I even started a thread the night that we lost the game to USC that said we need a new HC and Stan just wasn't getting it done (which I believe was emotion talking more than logic).  The fact is, that he did what the PTB asked of him (made the NCAAT) and should be retained because of that.  I think we should stick with Stan and show him that we believe in him and in the end I believe we will be pleasantly surprised with the results. :razorback: GO HOGS! :razorback:

I agree. +1

[TulsaJack32]

I cannot believe this post.  No wonder UA is in a pond of mediocrity with thoughts like that.  If you look at the numbers, Nolan in his 2nd year is 2 wins short of having the same record as Heath in his 5th year and you say they are right on pace.  Good grief!!!   Keep Heath another year and you will see the same thing.

[Hogtropolis™]

Care to elaborate how so?  He has been step for step as good as Nolan up until this last year, a year in which three 1000 point scorers either graduated or left for the NBA, and this included 3 starters and the #1 PG off the bench, and Nolan had none of his players leave early for the NBA in his first 4 years at Arkansas.  Stan deserves another year here at Arkansas.

You have GOT to be kidding. Are we seriously looking at the same numbers?

NOLAN RICHARDSON AT ARKANSAS

Year 85-86 86-87 87-88 88-89 89-90

Overall Record 12-16 19-14 21-9 25-7 30-5

Postseason No Tournament NIT #11 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #6 seed Nova #5 seed in NCAAT, beat #12 seed Loyola in 1st round, lost to #4 seed Louisville in 2nd round #4 seed in NCAAT, went to the Final Four and lost to #3 seed Duke

STAN HEATH AT ARKANSAS

Year 02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08

Overall Record 9-19 12-16 18-12 22-10 21-14 ??-??

Postseason No Tournament No Tournament (had the 8th youngest team in the nation this year) Turned down NIT bid #8 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #9 seed Bucknell #12 seed in NCAAT, lost to #5 seed USC in 1st round ?? ?? ??

Why in the world would you give stan a pass. those loses don't get thrown out the window if the fans feel they want to.
And even if you did. Nolan STILL got further in his first 4 years! ( a number 5 seed AND into the 2nd round of the tourney )
Then after that, just for kicks. and EVEN HIGHER SEED and get this...the final four. crazy. how could he do such a thing and not be kicked out immediately.

12>8. We lost to a higher seeded team because we weren't seeded high enough to get a team we could more easily handle.

You are absolutely ridiculous.

I don't see how you can say I am absolutely ridiculous after looking at those numbers.  Excluding Stan's first year here, his and Nolan's first 4 years resemble each other very closely.  That my friend is not absolutely ridiculous, its just straight numbers that can't be disputed.  Nolan had 77 wins in his first 4 years and once again excluding Stan's first year at Arkansas he had 73 wins in his first 4 years here.  Call that ridiculous.  If Stan is here next year, he will have a GREAT year as the HC of the Arkansas Razorbacks.

[cohog]

I even give Nolan a pass on his second year.  I was a freshman that year as he struggled with the sickness and ultimate death of his daughter.  That was a tough time..........

Nolan actually missed a good number of games during his first year to be with his daughter.  Andy Stoglin coached the team.

[Tejano Jawg]

The team Nolan inherited from Sutton had a ton of off court issues.  William Mills and Kenny Hutchinson never passed a drug test and had to be kicked off the team his best players that year were Mike Ratliff and Eric Poershke?.   We played a walk on at point guard, this team also starred Jay Crane.

Off the court issues aside (Mills, etc)...yes, the team Nolan had to work with (with the possible exception of Mike Ratliff) was possibly the worst college basketball team in history. How's that?

[slop]

 If Stan is here next year, he will have a GREAT year as the HC of the Arkansas Razorbacks.
[/quote]Are you basing this on the fact that he has all his playeers coming back? To have a great year next year they would have to improve and I did not see that from the beginning of this year to the end. Yea we had a five game run on vandy and miss. st. after the leak or the near fight with ervin whichever you want to give credit for us to get fired up to play. But when that wore off against a better team in Florida we where back to our same old ways against usc. For us to have a great year under Heath next year he (Heath) will have to implement a system he believes in, Know how to teach it, and take nothing less than perfection and all out effort in practice to make it work.It is my opinion that Heath lacks one or more of these latter three items.   

[hawgsav1]

I think it's blasphemy to compare Nolan to Heath.  Heath cannot stack up in any estimation.  Granted Nolan's later years he kind of fell off, but his early years were full of promise.  I don't remember always thinking "just give Nolan one more year and he'll start kicking butt on a regular basis". Heath has had 5 years to bring the program up to where the bar was set, and he hasn't done it. I just want to see the Hogs do well, whatever it takes. Bring NOlan back for all I care.

[Hogtropolis™]

A) That information was 'leaked' and I never heard a statement.  I'm not saying everything has to be official but I'm not sure that making the tournament equaled job security.  Maybe it meant you have to make the tournament at the minimum.  I'd have to look at the reports Hogtropolis.

B) Is Heath the 'long-term' answer for the program?  The folks saying "give him one more year" are not looking at this very wisely in my estimation.  You have to look down the road.  You can't give him one more year and then fire him if things don't go well next year.  A new coach will be replacing up to 7 scholarships and that is a nightmare to start out with zero momentum. 

C) Thirdly, what is the standard next year?  To keep improving?  Heath broke that trend this year.  Even if he beat it by one game, we sure are taking a long time to get to the goal folks.  It doesn't take that long in basketball.  Shoot, even in football five years is usually the standard and almost all acknowledge it normally takes a little longer in football.  I contend that Heath has underachieved every year he's been year.  He's done an adequate job.  If I were the AD, I wouldn't get one ounce of pleasure in recommending termination for Heath.  It's a tough call but I think it has to be done for the betterment of the program. 

D)  Lastly, based upon C, I would have a good name lined up before I let go of Heath.  Don't make me pick between Anthony Grant, Doc Sadler, and Travis Ford.  Better make a big splash if you are going to dive into the pool. 

A.) I'm not sure what the report said either, I am just going by what I have heard on here and on the radio.

B.) I completely agree with you here.  Unfortunately, the U of A is caught in a bit of a "Catch 22" here.  You would like to be able to say you have one more year to win some games in the NCAAT and show that you can win consistently in the SEC, but they can't because of the 7 scholarships.  Their only 2 options are 1.) Keep Heath for at least 3 more years or 2.) Get rid of Heath now.

C.) I think the standard that he needs to be held by should be how well he does in the NCAAT.  If he can't win some games in the NCAAT then he should be gone with no questions asked (especially since Heath said himself in the PC today that this team should win multiple NCAAT games next year), but that brings us back to the problem we discussed in B.).

D.) If we don't have a "Big Name" coach already lined up there is no benefit in hiring an unproven coach in place of Heath right now.  If we have that "Big Name" coach already lined up then thought should definitely be given to replacing Heath, but I am just stating that based on these comparisons Stan deserves at least one more year whether they give it to him or not.

[sneakybeats]

You can compare stats and numbers all day.  Five years into Nolan's tenure, were you really thinking, "Man we're probably going to lose to Ole Miss tonight?"  NO, you probably weren't because Nolan had the spirit and the fight of the Hog, and he found a way to win.  However, I found myself thinking "we'll probably blow it tonight," against every team that we played this year, good or bad.  Especially after Heath allowed Gary Ervin to lose games single handedly when we had leads in the last 5 minutes of games, and when Heath allowed 5 consecutive inbounds turnovers against Tennessee without calling a timeout.  THAT was the definition of horrible coaching.  I was convinced that he was TRYING to get fired during that game. Nolan would have pulled a point guard in a second that was shooting into the double team when he should've been running down the clock to preserve the victory, and he would've called a timeout if for nothing else to make sure that such mistakes didn't happen again.   

There's no question that Nolan paved the way for the Hogs basketball program, and he  continues to be mirrored in the offenses of teams across the country, but that doesn't mean that we should settle for "one more year" with a guy that obviously doesn't know how to make the necessary adjustments to pull out victories.  Same song, 5th verse.

Our inconsistancy this year alone proved that Stan didn't know how to utilize the talent that he had.  Slow, methodical offense is meant for the Big East or Ivy league schools, not the SEC and definately not the should be "running Razorbacks." 

[hawgsav1]

You can compare stats and numbers all day.  Five years into Nolan's tenure, were you really thinking, "Man we're probably going to lose to Ole Miss tonight?"  NO, you probably weren't because Nolan had the spirit and the fight of the Hog, and he found a way to win.  However, I found myself thinking "we'll probably blow it tonight," against every team that we played this year, good or bad.  Especially after Heath allowed Gary Ervin to lose games single handedly when we had leads in the last 5 minutes of games, and when Heath allowed 5 consecutive inbounds turnovers against Tennessee without calling a timeout.  THAT was the definition of horrible coaching.  I was convinced that he was TRYING to get fired during that game. Nolan would have pulled a point guard in a second that was shooting into the double team when he should've been running down the clock to preserve the victory, and he would've called a timeout if for nothing else to make sure that such mistakes didn't happen again.   

There's no question that Nolan paved the way for the Hogs basketball program, and he  continues to be mirrored in the offenses of teams across the country, but that doesn't mean that we should settle for "one more year" with a guy that obviously doesn't know how to make the necessary adjustments to pull out victories.  Same song, 5th verse.

Our inconsistancy this year alone proved that Stan didn't know how to utilize the talent that he had.  Slow, methodical offense is meant for the Big East or Ivy league schools, not the SEC and definately not the should be "running Razorbacks." 

+1 for you

I agree with you completely.  I feel exactly the same way.  What I've told all my friends about the number one comparison between Heath and Nolan is that with Nolan, I had this undying optimism that "yes, we can win this game".  Yes I know I was really young back then, but whenever I was watching the Hogs, I always felt we had a chance to win, even if we were down 10 with a minute to go.  Even Nolan's players believed in him.  With Heath, Even a 10 point lead with a minute to go, I don't have the confidence in them to hold up.  Heath's players barely believe in him and barely hustle.  I mean, come on, we were up by 30 or so against Bama IN THE SECOND HALF and they the final score was 63-57 or something.  Nolan's Hogs would have murdered them by at least 50.  It's not about strategy, recruiting, or any of that stuff.  It's about wins  and confidence in the team.

[HAWGFAN1964]

Not that I'm trying to take up for Stan, I really like him, I wish he could be very successful here at Arkansas, but did anyone else noticed how USC picked apart top 15 ranked Texas, even worse than they did Arkansas??? 2 points worse, and TX had the Kevin Durant kid!

And the florida loss....although we got beat down (after 4 straight days of playing), They are the defending national champions!

I think Stan deserves one more year, with 7 seniors, then we can make a final decision about his future...I think we owe him that much! After all he inherited a program that was in HORRIBLE shape when he arrived... which by the way was NOLAN's pathetic program when he was fired!! So much for the NOLAN theory!

[YIKES]

   No one has mentioned the fact Nolan built the most productive program of the 1990's. Or was it the second best? Regardless, he did have better success than Stan has had. We can debate the reasons all we want to, but the bottom line is our basketball program is not where it should be. I think we all can agree it is better than when Stan arrived, but it is not at the level we are used to. 

[blu]

Keep him. Next year we should be Sweet 16 at least, if not, he's gone. If so, let him keep recruiting and building and improving.

[sneakybeats]

With Stan next year we might make it to the sweet 16.  However, with any other coach that knows how to call timeouts, hold leads, run the clock when necessary, make needed adjustments, and bring a LONG OVERDUE intensity, we make the final 4.

We should'nt settle for a sweet 16 with 7 returning seniors.  We should've been in the sweet 16 THIS year.  You can thank Stan's horrible regular season coaching and lucky/unlucky at-large 12 seeding for that one. 

[slop]

Nolan said let me get my style of player and we will compete for and win championships. Heath says let me coach my seniors and we will get to the sweet-sixteen. Great, then what another four years before we have seven seniors again?

[Thimstr]

    Neither did Satchell, Gomez, Darnell Robinson, Phillip McKellar or Cannon Whitby. What is your point?

    I guess Beverly, Weems and Brewer did?

I heard Cannon Whitby's mom used to comb his hair before every game...

[Kris P. Bacon]

Hogtropolis. A voice of REASON and not emotion. How refreshing!

+1 Nice Post

[hawgsav1]

People forget that Nolan's team would have had Andre Iguodala and JJ Sullinger coming back, who had just left for Ohio State.  Granted Larry Satchell and Dionisio Gomez weren't that great, but Alonzo Lane had potential.  he just got worse since his freshman year.  That being said, I'm sure Nolan would have done better than Stan did his first couple of years.

[TOM "tbw1"]

It all depends what kind of program you want.  If you consider the Sweet 16 the goal to shoot for, then you should be happy with the state of the program.


If you want better, you can't be happy with the current situation.

[booogaga]

you are comparing apples to oranges

[Tiredofhogssucking]

NOLAN RICHARDSON AT ARKANSAS

Year 85-86 86-87 87-88 88-89 89-90

Overall Record 12-16 19-14 21-9 25-7 30-5

Postseason No Tournament NIT #11 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #6 seed Nova #5 seed in NCAAT, beat #12 seed Loyola in 1st round, lost to #4 seed Louisville in 2nd round #4 seed in NCAAT, went to the Final Four and lost to #3 seed Duke

STAN HEATH AT ARKANSAS

Year 02-03 03-04 04-05 05-06 06-07 07-08

Overall Record 9-19 12-16 18-12 22-10 21-14 ??-??

Postseason No Tournament No Tournament (had the 8th youngest team in the nation this year) Turned down NIT bid #8 seed in NCAAT, Lost in 1st round to #9 seed Bucknell #12 seed in NCAAT, lost to #5 seed USC in 1st round ?? ?? ??

We all know what Nolan did following these first 5 years.  If you give SH a pass on his first year here (which most are willing to do), then he is right on pace with what Nolan did in his first 5 years here.  If Stan is able to keep this pace, then we are looking at a very good year next year and possibly for many years to come.

I've been back and forth many times on whether or not we should keep Stan or cut our losses and move on.  I even started a thread the night that we lost the game to USC that said we need a new HC and Stan just wasn't getting it done (which I believe was emotion talking more than logic).  The fact is, that he did what the PTB asked of him (made the NCAAT) and should be retained because of that.  I think we should stick with Stan and show him that we believe in him and in the end I believe we will be pleasantly surprised with the results. :razorback: GO HOGS! :razorback:

Don't forget Nolan got to rebuild in the old SWC which is hardly a basketball conference.  Stan is basically doing the same thing as Nolan in the SEC. 

Which is the better Basketball Conference?

SEC with Florida, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, LSU, BAMA, Tennessee, during the last five years with Stan Heath....

Or the SWC with Texas, Texas A&M, Baylor, Rice, Houston, Texas Tech, SMU, TCU during Nolan's first five years.

Stan has done an equal job to Nolan in a much tougher conference!!!!

[hawgsav1]

you are comparing apples to oranges

How is this comparing apples to oranges?  It's more like comparing juicy Arkansas peaches to rotten peaches from Afghanistan.

People forget Houston was coming off a great couple of year runs.  And people forget, the SEC wasn't that great for a couple of years around the 2002 season or so. MSU and Bama and all those SEC teams got bounced in the first round. Even Kentucky didn't do so well, getting bounced in the Elite 8 during their last run and the second round the year after.

[ehogfan08]

But really...some of you people absolutely amaze me. I feel like im in elementary school arguing about who's dad has the cooler car....

[hoggsville]

Why would Billy Gillespie leave his dream job in Texas?  Texas A&M has as many resources as Arkansas. Why would he leave to rebuild another job?  He's from Texas and is the main man on campus. He has everything going his way

[BigHog396]

Why would Billy Gillespie leave his dream job in Texas?  Texas A&M has as many resources as Arkansas. Why would he leave to rebuild another job?  He's from Texas and is the main man on campus. He has everything going his way

You will find out if he will in the next few days.

[Hogtropolis™]

Why would Billy Gillespie leave his dream job in Texas?  Texas A&M has as many resources as Arkansas. Why would he leave to rebuild another job?  He's from Texas and is the main man on campus. He has everything going his way

You will find out if he will in the next few days.

So we shall and if he will leave for Arkansas or another program.