Muhammad Ali dies at age 74

[PonderinHog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XKcGRREcaM

I remember that fight, JB.  IT WAS RIGGED!!!!   

[Pulled(PP)pork]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XKcGRREcaM

RM looks like Butterbean with hair


PP

[Murr]

Ali was an enigma.  Looking backwards, it's hard to not admire his courage and skill.  He was a polarizing figure throughout the Civil Rights Movement.  He used his celebrity status as a bully pulpit to further the views of Malcolm X and the Nation of Islam.  His comments were often hateful and highly offensive to white Americans.  I remember some of them vividly, as well as the discussions they sometimes provoked around the house.  Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali left a lasting impression on those of us who grew up in the '60's and '70's. 

And I think that's what he wanted.  Ali's skill was in the ring, but he will be remembered for having the courage to tell us all bluntly how much he hated white people.  In the end, it needed to be said before the healing could begin.  White Americans had to admit, even if only to themselves, that persons in Ali's shoes had reasons to hate them. 

It will take longer than 50 years to heal wounds that were 350 years in the making, but Muhammad Ali played a big role, albeit as an antagonist, in beginning the healing process.  That, more than his athletic accomplishments, will be his legacy.

He also apparently dodged the draft.  Chit, even Elvis joined the Army.

[ChitownHawg]

He also apparently dodged the draft.  Chit, even Elvis joined the Army.

He paid a price for it which many rich white kids did not. He was on the leading edge for the black community. Just watched Harry Belafonte said in the early 60s blacks were taught to be "good negroes", but Ali didn't play that game.

Ali felt why fight for a country that still allowed people to treat him like an animal. People who did not accept him into their great country. The country they expected him to pick up a rifle and die for. So if you want to remember him not going to war then also remember how this country treated blacks at that time.

[sickboy]

He also apparently dodged the draft.  Chit, even Elvis joined the Army.

Black Americans had the distinct experience of going to Europe in World War I, II and Korea -- and fighting for this country, many of whom earned the respect of many white soldiers on the battlefields of Europe, only to then come home, not as decorated and lauded soldiers, as second class citizens in Jim Crow America.

Their experience during those years certainly shaped their opinions of war and sacrifice. And by the time Vietnam rolled around -- the black world was finally being given a voice to speak up about the wrongs of their past.

For Ali to stand up and say he wasn't going to sacrifice his life for a country that didn't treat him as an equal -- though incendiary and counter to the hallowed notion of our favorite word in this county, "patriotism" -- is understandable considering the time and history of the place.

All that said -- to me Ali was one of the most fascinating characters of the 20th century. And history has a way of glossing over the details for the bigger pictures when it comes to the way we remember people. Just like you and me, Ali was human. He wasn't flawless by any means. And over caskets there's rarely a disparaging remark made. But it was his flaws and contractions, his larger-than-life wit and the wisdom he laced every seemingly self involved tirade with that made him one of a kind -- and made a lasting impact on the world.

Go watch We Were Kings right this second. I assure you that you won't be disappointed.

[bphi11ips]

Black Americans had the distinct experience of going to Europe in World War I, II and Korea -- and fighting for this country, many of whom earned the respect of many white soldiers on the battlefields of Europe, only to then come home, not as decorated and lauded soldiers, as second class citizens in Jim Crow America.

Their experience during those years certainly shaped their opinions of war and sacrifice. And by the time Vietnam rolled around -- the black world was finally being given a voice to speak up about the wrongs of their past.

For Ali to stand up and say he wasn't going to sacrifice his life for a country that didn't treat him as an equal -- though incendiary and counter to the hallowed notion of our favorite word in this county, "patriotism" -- is understandable considering the time and history of the place.

All that said -- to me Ali was one of the most fascinating characters of the 20th century. And history has a way of glossing over the details for the bigger pictures when it comes to the way we remember people. Just like you and me, Ali was human. He wasn't flawless by any means. And over caskets there's rarely a disparaging remark made. But it was his flaws and contractions, his larger-than-life wit and the wisdom he laced every seemingly self involved tirade with that made him one of a kind -- and made a lasting impact on the world.

Go watch We Were Kings right this second. I assure you that you won't be disappointed.

Where're the karma widgets when you need them?

[PonderinHog]

He also apparently dodged the draft.  Chit, even Elvis joined the Army.

Elvis went to Germany.  They had a different destination in mind for Ali.  Some of y'all ain't gonna like this.

https://youtu.be/HeFMyrWlZ68

[jswineberiaskirk]

In tribute to Ali you couldn't overlook the comments about Mandela? You had to turn the thread political? Geez some people have no respect or common decency.

No the fawning over people who did heinous things can't be overlooked. Another poster remarked how it was "good" that Ali spoke how much he hated white people and that it was good for white people to hear that so that they could admit that people like him had reason to hate them.

That is complete and utter bullflop. I and most white people have never done a damn thing to cause other people to hate us. I have never used the word-which-must-never-be-uttered (unless you're of a protected PC class) and have told others to shut up when using it. I despise racism in ALL it's forms having been raised in a home where I was taught we are ALL equal and children of God having been created in His image. I have done my best to live by that all my life. We are all one human race. Period, end of sentence.

[jswineberiaskirk]

the truth is you don't care to see....I was about to give my salute to Muhammad Ali....although I don't agree that it was somehow cathartic for Ali to say how much he hated white people as some others in here do, I will say this. My father met Ali in the Houston airport completely by accident in the mid 70's. Told me that Muhammad Ali was nothing like he was portrayed to be. Pops said he had never met a more gracious man who spent time with each and every one of his many, many fans....I think the way Ali treated Joe Frazier was appalling using the guise that "oh, I was just promoting the fight"....horse manure, the gates for those three fights were all sold out as soon as seats at all the 'closed circuit' tv locations were made available. Ali was somewhat of an enigma, the older he got, the more gentle and caring he became. I don't agree with his draft dodging based on killing others because the man he followed at the time Elijah Muhammad advocated killing the white devil. The reason Malcolm X as assassinated was because Malcolm had a trip to Mecca and was converted from race hate to race relations. Malcolm X should be on that wall because he gave his life for the brotherhood of man. Ali's greatest attribute was his determination, I saw Joe Frazier hit him with punches that would have knocked out any normal human being. Muhammad was anything but normal. His determination in his beliefs are a huge positive to me so I have no problems with Ali being on the Mt Rushmore of social change. Nelson Mandela, not so much.

very well said

[WilsonHog]

My father spent 28 years in the military and was no fan of Ali. As a result, I wasn't either when I was growing up. When I became an adult, I learned to appreciate and respect Ali's commitment to his beliefs.

When I watch and listen to his words below and consider America in the 1960s, there isn't much I can find fault with.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MnY_FsxAChg

"I ain't draft dodging. I ain't burning no flag. I ain't running to Canada. I'm staying right here. You want to send me to jail? Fine, you go right ahead. I've been in jail for 400 years. I could be there for 4 or 5 more, but I ain't going no 10,000 miles to help murder and kill other poor people. If I want to die, I'll die right here, right now, fightin' you, if I want to die. You my enemy, not no Chinese, no Vietcong, no Japanese. You my opposer when I want freedom. You my opposer when I want justice. You my opposer when I want equality. Want me to go somewhere and fight for you? You won't even stand up for me right here in America, for my rights and my religious beliefs. You won't even stand up for my rights here at home."

[PonderinHog]

I didn't realize somebody found his olympic gold medal.

http://empirenews.net/muhammad-alis-olympic-gold-medal-found-in-ohio-river/

[panhandlepig]

No the fawning over people who did heinous things can't be overlooked. Another poster remarked how it was "good" that Ali spoke how much he hated white people and that it was good for white people to hear that so that they could admit that people like him had reason to hate them.

That is complete and utter bullflop. I and most white people have never done a damn thing to cause other people to hate us. I have never used the word-which-must-never-be-uttered (unless you're of a protected PC class) and have told others to shut up when using it. I despise racism in ALL it's forms having been raised in a home where I was taught we are ALL equal and children of God having been created in His image. I have done my best to live by that all my life. We are all one human race. Period, end of sentence.

  Heinous?  He publicly stated he wasn't going to fight a white man's war. Why would he? Do some research about that time. There were plenty of white boys who did every thing possible to avoid that war.
  Ali was up front and in your face with his reasons.  I do not blame him at all.

[bphi11ips]

No the fawning over people who did heinous things can't be overlooked. Another poster remarked how it was "good" that Ali spoke how much he hated white people and that it was good for white people to hear thayt so that they could admit that people like him had reason to hate them.

That is complete and utter bullflop. I and most white people have never done a damn thing to cause other people to hate us. I have never used the word-which-must-never-be-uttered (unless you're of a protected PC class) and have told others to shut up when using it. I despise racism in ALL it's forms having been raised in a home where I was taught we are ALL equal and children of God having been created in His image. I have done my best to live by that all my life. We are all one human race. Period, end of sentence.

You missed the point.

Martin Luther King was the pacifist; Malcolm X was the instigator.  Muhammad Ali spoke from his heart.  His generation and those that came before it had reason to hate white Americans.  Today we have moved towards hating slavery rather than each other.

It's never been about what you do, personally.

[ChitownHawg]

Elvis went to Germany.  They had a different destination in mind for Ali.  Some of y'all ain't gonna like this.

https://youtu.be/HeFMyrWlZ68

One of our sadder times in the US, but we have improved from it. We are not there yet, but we are a long ways from those days.

[ChitownHawg]

No the fawning over people who did heinous things can't be overlooked. Another poster remarked how it was "good" that Ali spoke how much he hated white people and that it was good for white people to hear that so that they could admit that people like him had reason to hate them.

That is complete and utter bullflop. I and most white people have never done a damn thing to cause other people to hate us. I have never used the word-which-must-never-be-uttered (unless you're of a protected PC class) and have told others to shut up when using it. I despise racism in ALL it's forms having been raised in a home where I was taught we are ALL equal and children of God having been created in His image. I have done my best to live by that all my life. We are all one human race. Period, end of sentence.

And if you knew anything of Ali's life then you would have known he would agree with your bolded statement.


-----edit-----

After giving your comments more thought I will add this. All Ali or anyone fighting for minority rights want is to be treated like the majority. The two sides preventing this are the prejudice side and the apologist side. Some are prejudice out of ignorance and many of Ali's comments were to shock a discussion. To get the ignorant to educate themselves on the issues.

Now the other side that I think does just as much damage are the white apologists. While I am saddened of our history I don't feel I need to apologize as I had nothing to do with our past. They need to quit apologizing and help bring attitudinal change.

And quite frankly the minorities don't want an apology - they want attitude change which is what I try to give. To me Ali stood for this.

[Pig in the Pokey]

I love Ali. He helped end the draft! A boxer, helped end the friggin war-machine's damn draft. Amazing, really. Dude was a Colossus.

[PonderinHog]

CBS had a nice tribute to Ali last night.

[Wahls]

The UFC did 3 or 4 different montages last night during UFC 199 and the crowd began to chant "Ali-Ali-Ali" after them. UFC 199 just happened to be in Inglewood, California at "The Forum" which was where Ali beat Ken Norton in 1973.

[GuvHog]

And if you knew anything of Ali's life then you would have known he would agree with your bolded statement.


-----edit-----

After giving your comments more thought I will add this. All Ali or anyone fighting for minority rights want is to be treated like the majority. The two sides preventing this are the prejudice side and the apologist side. Some are prejudice out of ignorance and many of Ali's comments were to shock a discussion. To get the ignorant to educate themselves on the issues.

Now the other side that I think does just as much damage are the white apologists. While I am saddened of our history I don't feel I need to apologize as I had nothing to do with our past. They need to quit apologizing and help bring attitudinal change.

And quite frankly the minorities don't want an apology - they want attitude change which is what I try to give. To me Ali stood for this.

As a boxer and an athlete I respected Ali because he was one of the greatest..

As a person?? Not so much. Remember, many of those names on the Vietnam Memorial are the names of African American men who died for their country believing in their hearts that they were doing the right thing. Is Ali better than them?? I don't think so.

[ChitownHawg]

As a boxer and an athlete I respected Ali because he was one of the greatest..

As a person?? Not so much. Remember, many of those names on the Vietnam Memorial are the names of African American men who died for their country believing in their hearts that they were doing the right thing. Is Ali better than them?? I don't think so.

As always Guv's skewed point of view. Now those dead soldiers cannot speak, but their friends and family can. Have you heard one single negative word from the black community about Ali?

Of course you have as they respected his stance on the war. Geez quit being such a blinded redneck.

[GuvHog]

As always Guv's skewed point of view. Now those dead soldiers cannot speak, but their friends and family can. Have you heard one single negative word from the black community about Ali?

Of course you have as they respected his stance on the war. Geez quit being such a blinded redneck.

I'll forgive the redneck remark since you are so young that you probably weren't around at the time. You are wrong, that's all there is to it.

[ChitownHawg]

I'll forgive the redneck remark since you are so young that you probably weren't around at the time. You are wrong, that's all there is to it.

Speaking of wrong - yes you are. I was fortunate that my military service came a couple years after Vietnam. My brother was not as fortunate and today is battling cancer from agent orange during his tours.

My dad was one of the first classes of Green Berets. He specialized in jungle survival and warfare. In 1962 he retired after several trips to Vietnam to train South Vietnamese troops. He didn't have the stomach to go through a war he felt didn't have the generals to win.

So I do know the war and the affects it had on my family and friends's families. Do you have any other wrong comments?

And I apologize for the redneck comment. I can make my points without the name calling.

[GuvHog]

Speaking of wrong - yes you are. I was fortunate that my military service came a couple years after Vietnam. My brother was not as fortunate and today is battling cancer from agent orange during his tours.

My dad was one of the first classes of Green Berets. He specialized in jungle survival and warfare. In 1962 he retired after several trips to Vietnam to train South Vietnamese troops. He didn't have the stomach to go through a war he felt didn't have the generals to win.

So I do know the war and the affects it had on my family and friends's families. Do you have any other wrong comments?

And I apologize for the redneck comment. I can make my points without the name calling.

I didn't say you were wrong about the war, I said you were wrong about Ali dodging the draft and the way some African Americans felt about it. Needless to say, among the ones I worked with down here Ali wasn't very popular as a person. As a boxer and a Civil Rights advocate he was very popular but his decision to dodge the draft didn't go over very well.

[Pig in the Pokey]

I didn't realize somebody found his olympic gold medal.

http://empirenews.net/muhammad-alis-olympic-gold-medal-found-in-ohio-river/

Very awesome that he got this 2 years before he died. Equally amazing that they didn't low-ball the generousity of the couple that just gave it back to Ali. $200k , nice reward right there for a Gold medal find.

[Pig in the Pokey]

I didn't say you were wrong about the war, I said you were wrong about Ali dodging the draft

Ali's faith , to him, meant not killing foreigners for corporate profits. Mine is the same. I wouldn't do it. THERE SHOULD BE MORE  people like Ali. Imo, he ended the draft.

[ChitownHawg]

I didn't say you were wrong about the war, I said you were wrong about Ali dodging the draft and the way some African Americans felt about it. Needless to say, among the ones I worked with down here Ali wasn't very popular as a person. As a boxer and a Civil Rights advocate he was very popular but his decision to dodge the draft didn't go over very well.

I would say then your friends are in the minority. Also the war and Civil Rights were tied together for most black communities as blacks were dying at a disproportionate rate.

Early in the war, when blacks made up about 11.0% of our V'nam force, black casualties soared to over 20% of the total (1965, 1966). Black leaders protested and Pres Johnson ordered that black participation should be cut back in the combat units. As a result, the black casualty rate was cut to 11.5% by 1969.

http://www.americanwarlibrary.com/vietnam/vwc10.htm

[panhandlepig]

There are many people who refuse to accept the revisionist history - one that ignores the fact of Clay the draft dodger.

He didn't dodge the draft. He said straight up I ain't going. There is a huge difference. If you don't understand the difference you might need to shut up about it.

[PonderinHog]

He didn't dodge the draft. He said straight up I ain't going. There is a huge difference. If you don't understand the difference you might need to shut up about it.

You also have my full support - unless Ali snuck off to Canada and I missed it.

[ChitownHawg]

he was probably opening his rushlimbaughlike mouth in both instances, then. probably said something like, "I don't have to serve your kind" (meaning a racist) and he took it as meaning white.

Ok on an Ali related note - Ali said he went into a restaurant where a waitress said "We don't serve negroes" and Ali said "That's ok I don't eat them." I loved that man's quick wit. 

[TUSKtimes]

Ali refused induction as a conscientious objector. The draft board refused the claim but never gave a reason why he didn't qualify. Supreme court got it in 1971 and because the appeal board never expressed why he didn't qualify, the 1967 conviction was reversed.

Politics, plus religion, plus sports, Ali was a big deal in all aspects of life.

[oldbear]

I personally think it is amazing that a black athlete from the 60's could spur this much discussion on such varied topics on the occasion of his death. When I posted the topic, I intentionally said very little to see what would happen. There were things that no one can argue: that he was an exceptional boxer, was willing to trade money and popularity for what he believed, and that he had a dramatic effect on the world outside of sports.

There are other things that spur heated debate: was he right in refusing service, was he overly harsh and controversial with many of his comments, along with many other things. I, like several others on here was raised by a dad that didn't care for sports figures that trash talked a lot. I cheered for Frazier, Norton and Holmes, and swore that especially the later fights with Norton were bad decisions.

Any way you say it, the man had faults just like the rest of us, but he could not be ignored. I believe that the value of one's life is based on how you effect others. Ali had a dramatic effect on our society and in the end, much of it was good.

I love the comments by Foreman where he related this converaation:

Foreman: do you believe in God?
Ali: yes I do.
Foreman: do you believe he is perfect?
Ali: yes I do.
Foreman: what color is he?
Ali: don't come at me with that stuff. God is bigger than that.

Foreman followed that up with and so was Ali. He was larger than life and helped to bring about what I hope is becoming a society that sees less color and more people as just people. Please keep this thread open and don't let it deteriorate to the point of being locked or deleted. There is plenty to discuss and argue over. If you can't speak well of Ali, at least acknowledge that he was a heckuva boxer that grew up in an era where it was amazing that African Americans didn't start a war. Maybe those of us that were children in that time don't need to apologize, but we can learn and do better than those in the past. I think the Ali of the later years that seemed to mellow and just love people both publicly and privately would be honored by that.

[ALLVOL]

Learn of his life and you will no why he is no legend. 
He was a boxer...and nothing more.

Not a fan of the man at all. He was not a good person IMO.

[clutch]

He didn't dodge the draft. He said straight up I ain't going. There is a huge difference. If you don't understand the difference you might need to shut up about it.

This is the way I see it too. He didn't run and hide and "dodge" the draft. He showed up and accepted the consequences for his decision to not go. To me, a true dodger would have never done that.

[ricepig]

This is the way I see it too. He didn't run and hide and "dodge" the draft. He showed up and accepted the consequences for his decision to not go. To me, a true dodger would have never done that.

Correct, he went to jail, and while I may not have agreed with it, he did his time.

[Pig in the Pokey]

Not a fan of the man at all. He was not a good person IMO.

color me not shocked. #truecolors

[panhandlepig]

Not a fan of the man at all. He was not a good person IMO.

Tell us about your service.  Vietnam was a bitch. I'm sure you got some stories .

[ChitownHawg]

I have family members who died in Vietnam while serving this country.  Your faux sense of righteousness revisionism is sickening.  Clay deserves to be remember as the draft dodger he was - make your peace with it and move on.

That is a good prescription Doctor - take a dose. 

[Pig in the Pokey]

I have family members who died in Vietnam while serving this country.  Your faux sense of righteousness revisionism is sickening.  Clay deserves to be remember as the draft dodger he was - make your peace with it and move on.

DRAFT DODGER??? Like he had a DUTY to go kill innocent people? If that is true THAN WHY IS THE DRAFT GONE?

NEWSFLASH_ Donald Trump is a DRAFT DODGER. Faking an injury but still playing high school sports. Let's talk about that, since it's actually relevant.

[ALLVOL]

color me not shocked. #truecolors

Again. Knowledge is power. Don't be afraid to learn.

[ALLVOL]

DRAFT DODGER??? Like he had a DUTY to go kill innocent people? If that is true THAN WHY IS THE DRAFT GONE?

NEWSFLASH_ Donald Trump is a DRAFT DODGER. Faking an injury but still playing high school sports. Let's talk about that, since it's actually relevant.

The draft isn't gone. Ever heard of 18 year Olds having to register with selective service? Wow again, read a book that doesn't have pictures.

[ChitownHawg]

DRAFT DODGER??? Like he had a DUTY to go kill innocent people? If that is true THAN WHY IS THE DRAFT GONE?

NEWSFLASH_ Donald Trump is a DRAFT DODGER. Faking an injury but still playing high school sports. Let's talk about that, since it's actually relevant.

It's draft dodging unless they are running for office and have my vote. 

I would bet many of these guys screaming draft dodger voted both times with Chaney on the ticket. A man at the age to pick up a rifle used his family influence to get out of the draft. Once he was an old man he became a hawk. That is cowardice.

At least Ali stood in front of the cameras and protested - not hide behind family influence. But I digress.

[ALLVOL]

DRAFT DODGER??? Like he had a DUTY to go kill innocent people? If that is true THAN WHY IS THE DRAFT GONE?

NEWSFLASH_ Donald Trump is a DRAFT DODGER. Faking an injury but still playing high school sports. Let's talk about that, since it's actually relevant.

What a surprise, you're wrong yet again. Trump got a student deferment as a COLLEGE student, not highschool. Wow. He then failed a physical and was deamed BY THE MILITARY unfit to serve due to bone spurs.

[ChitownHawg]

The draft isn't gone. Ever heard of 18 year Olds having to register with selective service? Wow again, read a book that doesn't have pictures.

While technically true - it is nothing like it was during the war. Hence the large use of national guard troops during Iraq.

Many of the things Ali and others objected to have been corrected in the revised Selective Service.

https://www.sss.gov/About/History-And-Records/How-The-Draft-Has-Changed-Since-Vietnam

[Pig in the Pokey]

What a surprise, you're wrong yet again. Trump got a student deferment as a COLLEGE student, not highschool. Wow. He then failed a physical and was deemed BY THE MILITARY unfit to serve due to bone spurs.

omfg, who said anything about HIGHSCHOOL deferment? , of course it was a college deferment-  then he played COLLEGE SPORTS TOO.

[Pig in the Pokey]

What a surprise, you're wrong yet again. Trump got a student deferment as a COLLEGE student, not highschool. Wow. He then failed a physical and was deamed BY THE MILITARY unfit to serve due to bone spurs.

You have got to be the dumbest poster i've ever run across, you are literally more foolish than GUV!

[Pig in the Pokey]

While technically true - it is nothing like it was during the war. Hence the large use of national guard troops during Iraq.

Many of the things Ali and others objected to have been corrected in the revised Selective Service.

https://www.sss.gov/About/History-And-Records/How-The-Draft-Has-Changed-Since-Vietnam

Nobody has been drafted in forty something years, it's gone.

[ChitownHawg]

Nobody has been drafted in forty something years, it's gone.

And it ain't coming back. Not without rioting in the streets.

[ALLVOL]

You have got to be the dumbest poster i've ever run across, you are literally more foolish than GUV!

Facts really bother you. Evrything I posted is without question accurate and undeniable. You may not like it but it is truth.

[ChitownHawg]

omfg, who said anything about HIGHSCHOOL deferment? , of course it was a college deferment-  then he played COLLEGE SPORTS TOO.

You can do a lot if your daddy is rich.

[ALLVOL]

Nobody has been drafted in forty something years, it's gone.

But it's STILL AVAILABLE if needed. So once again you show ignorance of a subject.