2008 Hall of Fame Ballots

[Hogtropolis™]

These ballots were released today and are due in by the end of the week.  There are only 25 names on the ballot, which is unusually low.  As a Cards fan I am rooting for McGwire to make it, and looking over the field of players on the ballot, if anyone makes it this year, it should be McGwire.  Here's a list of the players.  I highlighted the 5 who I feel are most deserving.

• Brady Anderson
• Harold Baines
• Rod Beck
• Bert Blyleven
• Dave Concepcion
• Andre Dawson
• Shawon Dunston
• Chuck Finley
• Travis Fryman
• Rich Gossage
• Tommy John
• David Justice
• Chuck Knoblauch
• Don Mattingly
• Mark McGwire
• Jack Morris
• Dale Murphy
• Robb Nen
• Dave Parker
• Tim Raines
• Jim Rice
• Jose Rijo
• Lee Smith
• Todd Stottlemyre
• Alan Trammell

[gutshot]

That's an extremely weak list.  Some of those names were barely even all-stars.  I agree with the ones you highlighted for the most part.

[bulldog04]

I think Andre Dawson and Bert Blyleven will get in.  I doubt McGwire gets the votes.

[hogblade]

I say Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Lee Smith, Jack Morris and Mark McGwire with an asterik. You could might convince me of Dale Murphy as well.

Why is Todd Stottlemyre even mentioned as a possibility?? weird.

[LVW]

I say Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Lee Smith, Jack Morris and Mark McGwire with an asterik. You could might convince me of Dale Murphy as well.

Why is Todd Stottlemyre even mentioned as a possibility?? weird.

not nearly as weird as the time Jim Deshaies actually got a vote!

[Hogtropolis™]

I say Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Lee Smith, Jack Morris and Mark McGwire with an asterik. You could might convince me of Dale Murphy as well.

Why is Todd Stottlemyre even mentioned as a possibility?? weird.

I'm sure the reason Stottlemyre is mentioned is because he was a pretty important part of the Blue Jays '92 and '93 World Series Champions teams.  I'm sure nobody thought he would actually get in, but that he just deserved to be on the ballot.

To be truthful, I really don't know who some of those guys are.  I had to go read up on them.  The most interesting story about this ballot is a guy name Jose Rijo, who was on the ballot before, but didn't receive enough votes, so he was dropped off the ballot.  After this happened, he made a brief appearance in the majors again, and now this year he was able to be put back on the ballot.  It would be really crazy if he made (which is highly unlikely from what I read.)

The guy that I was the most surprised by was Brady Anderson.  I remember him hitting 50 HR's 1 year, but he pretty much fell off the map after that.  I was just kind of surprised to see his name on there.

[LVW]

The most interesting story about this ballot is a guy name Jose Rijo, who was on the ballot before, but didn't receive enough votes, so he was dropped off the ballot.  After this happened, he made a brief appearance in the majors again, and now this year he was able to be put back on the ballot.  It would be really crazy if he made (which is highly unlikely from what I read.)

he was at one time married to Juan Marichal's daughter Rosie; he eventually got divorced and had a funny line about it once- after a game where he gave up 6 runs in less than 3 innings one of the reporters asked him about the outing and he replied- my ex wanted half of everything so 3 of thse runs are hers, lol.

[mword]

Mark McGwire won't see the Hall of Fame for a long time. Too many people think he did steroids.

[BradyHolzhauer]

McGwire has a 90% chance of never seeing the HoF

[hogblade]

Rijo was the ace of the 1990 Reds World Series team that swept the God Like Oakland team.. I was in 7th grade, I think, and I won my biggest bet ever just because I hated the A's after they swept my Red Sox and I bet extremely stupid and irrationally. I bet $20(that I didn't have) that the Reds would sweep the A's. Now that was luck....

Rijo had 7 straight good years from 1988-1994 where he was one of the best pitchers in the NL, but was never a dominant pitcher. He finished 4th for the Cy Young in 1991 and 5th for the Cy Young in 1993, but lost to Glavine and Maddux when they were untouchable. I always liked Rijo, but he isn't Cy material

Stottlemyre was a middle reliver for the 1992 World Series, and he started game 4 of the 1993 WS and got rocked for 6 runs in 2 Innings. He wasn't much of a contributor. During the regular season he was a 4th starter at best on those teams, and those were his best years, but I guess a 14 yr career maybe gets you on the ballot.

[Hogtropolis™]

McGwire has a 90% chance of never seeing the HoF

For some reason I will disagree.  I think that he has a very good chance of getting in this year.  I think the voters were trying to stick it to him last year so that he wouldn't be a 1st ballot HOF'er, but I think he gets in this year.

Now if he doesn't get in this year, then I would definitely start to agree with you Brady.

[LVW]

I bet $20(that I didn't have) that the Reds would sweep the A's. Now that was luck....

that wasn't luck- Reds have won their last 9 WS games

Rijo had 7 straight good years from 1988-1994 where he was one of the best pitchers in the NL, but was never a dominant pitcher.

what do you consider dominant?   he had a 4 year run where he won 64% of his decisions(his ERA in his losses was a very respectable 3.67) with ERAs of 2.70, 2.51. 2.25, and 2.48, opponents BA of .212, .219, .238, and .230.  he finished 5th, 2nd, 7th, and 2nd in ERA; 2nd, 2nd, 11th, and 3rd in opponents BA; 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd in K/W ratio(91-93); 10th, 4th, 6th, and 1st in strikeouts......you don't have to be THE BEST to be considered dominant- in those 4 years he was.

[hogblade]

Considering that A's team coming in, betting that the Reds would sweep the A's, not win, but sweep was luck.

I'm sorry Jose Rijo. I didn't know you were a member here. I thought I pumped you up pretty good calling him one of the best pitchers in the NL. I'm sorry I used the phrase never dominant. However, I think if you asked most fans from the period of 88-94 who the dominant pitchers in the league were. They wouldn't say Rijo. He was under the radar. I liked Rijo and those Reds teams. He was good when he was at his best, but had a knack for injuries in all years but 90-93.

[LVW]

I think if you asked most fans from the period of 88-94 who the dominant pitchers in the league were. They wouldn't say Rijo. He was under the radar.

if you asked opposing hitters who the dominant pitchers were in 90-94 and I bet his name would come up a lot.

[el predicador]

if you asked opposing hitters who the dominant pitchers were in 90-94 and I bet his name would come up a lot.

Although I think his career was about over by the time Rijo played, Jack Morris also put up some good numbers.  LVW is the stats man and can say for sure, but I think Morris had something like 20 complete games one year.

[Hogtropolis™]

Although I think his career was about over by the time Rijo played, Jack Morris also put up some good numbers.  LVW is the stats man and can say for sure, but I think Morris had something like 20 complete games one year.

Morris had 20 CG in 1983 and from 1980-1991, there was only one year, 1984, that he didn't finish the year with at least 10 CG.  He finished his career with 175 CG and 28 shutouts.

[selfexplanatory]

This is the year Goose Gossage gets in.

[hogblade]

Although I think his career was about over by the time Rijo played, Jack Morris also put up some good numbers.  LVW is the stats man and can say for sure, but I think Morris had something like 20 complete games one year.

That is why Jack Morris has my vote!

[LVW]

Bill James's Hall of Fame book is an interesting read.

[LVW]

That is why Jack Morris has my vote!

neither he nor Rijo would have my vote over Bert Blyleven......a bit of trivia- Tommy John has the most career wins of any pitcher that never won 100 games for any team.

[hogblade]

I have Bert Blyleven in too...

[el predicador]

neither he nor Rijo would have my vote over Bert Blyleven...

Agreed.  Blyleven had 242 complete games in his career.  I think he's worthy of the Hall.

[IndyHog76]

HUGE Cardinal fan here, but I think only Goose and Jim Rice will make it in this year.  I think Blyleven is deserving, but don't think he'll make it.

[LVW]

HUGE Cardinal fan here, but I think only Goose and Jim Rice will make it in this year.  I think Blyleven is deserving, but don't think he'll make it.

the only Rice that might make a hall of fame before Dawson is Jerry.

[Oklahawg]

Blyleven is the only one with a shot in my book.

McGwire will sneak in some day. Not for a while, though.

[LVW]

bump

[Toad Suck Pork]

I still don't get how Murphy can't get in.  2 MVP's, 7 All-star appearances.  He was the clear leader of that Braves team in the 80's.  Maybe if the Braves had been good then, he would get a lot more play.

[LVW]

I still don't get how Murphy can't get in.  2 MVP's, 7 All-star appearances.  He was the clear leader of that Braves team in the 80's.  Maybe if the Braves had been good then, he would get a lot more play.

I think part of it is he was helped a lot by his home parks:

home- .281/.368/.499
road- .250/.324/.440

though not nearly as much as his sidekick Bob Horner:

home- .295/.359/.579
road- .260/.321/.448

i just don't see a career line of .265/.346/.469 with less than 400 HRs in the 80s and early 90s as HoF worthy- he was really good from 1982-1985, 1979, and 1987 but that's it.

[BradyHolzhauer]

Blyleven is the only one with a shot in my book.

McGwire will sneak in some day. Not for a while, though.

With McGwire, I wondered if they would vote him in this year...it would send a clear message to not make him a first ballot HOF'er...but it would make an even bigger message to McGwire to not put him in at all...dunno!

[LVW]

With McGwire, I wondered if they would vote him in this year...it would send a clear message to not make him a first ballot HOF'er...but it would make an even bigger message to McGwire to not put him in at all...dunno!

if the message hasn't been sent by now with all that has gone on- i don't see keeping mac out as addding anything to it.

[AND5_RAZORBACK]

  IMO the HOF has to become more about dominating your era and less about a numbers comparison
between generations since the current players are posting numbers like we did as kids in our backyard
wiffle ball league. That being said I would have to go for Rice and Gossage. Rice was the most feared middle of the lineup hitter from 1975-86 averaging close to 30 HR and 110 RBIs when those numbers meant something. Gossage was the last person a team wanted to see coming in from the bullpen during that same era
in baseball.
                    AND5

[LVW]

 IMO the HOF has to become more about dominating your era and less about a numbers comparison
between generations since the current players are posting numbers like we did as kids in our backyard
wiffle ball league. That being said I would have to go for Rice and Gossage. Rice was the most feared middle of the lineup hitter from 1975-86 averaging close to 30 HR and 110 RBIs when those numbers meant something.

Gossage- I'm with you on him

as far as Rice- he and Dawson are two good players to make comparisons- Rice started a couple of years before Dawson but they both had a cup of coffee as 21 year olds and became regulars as 22 year olds and basically played in the same era.

Dawson played longer(41 years old) than Rice(36 years old) so for comparison purposes as far as who the more dominant player was we'll use  both players through their age 36 seasons(1989 for Rice and 1991 for Dawson)

Just for the heck of it, make your case for Rice over Dawson then I'll present my case for Dawson.......deal?

[ErieHog]

My Ballot:

• Bert Blyleven
• Andre Dawson
• Rich Gossage
• Jack Morris
• Tim Raines

Raines' performance is perhaps the 2nd best by a leadoff hitter in the past 50 years; he was massively overshadowed by Rickey Henderson.   

[LVW]

Raines' performance is perhaps the 2nd best by a leadoff hitter in the past 50 years; he was massively overshadowed by Rickey Henderson.  

the overshadowed part may be an understatement- Henderson was seemingly always in the spotlight for something good, bad, or indifferent, YET when talking about Raines many of the younger fans not many remember or even know he had a coke problem early in his career(but can probably remember several things about Rickey).

and Rickey may yet still be a bit underrated because to the general fan he's known for stolen bases, leadoff homers, and  attitude/reputation of being lazy; but

he was also a run scoring machine(100 runs 13 times including age 39)

an on base god(.400+ OB% 15 times including age 40)

he was a plus defender the with excellent range the first half of his career(including a GG)

struck out only once every 7.8 plate appearences(which is pretty amazing when you consider how many deep counts he had in his career)

and he did all that despite spending almost all of his career in park unfavorable to righty hitters(oakland, yankees, shea, dodgers.

[AND5_RAZORBACK]

Just for the heck of it, make your case for Rice over Dawson then I'll present my case for Dawson.......deal?



First of all I loved the way Hawk played the game,I just think Rice had more impact in the
era he played. During their careers in only the seasons they played at least 100 games(14 for Rice, 17 for Dawson) Rice averaged 143 games, 87 runs, 27 HRs, & 100 RBIs compared to Dawson's 142 games, 76 runs, 24 HRs, & 87 RBIs. Advantage for offense goes to Rice. Defensively their numbers might look close but we both know Dawson was far superior to Rice in the outfield. Advantage goes to Dawson for defense. That just leaves intangibles, and for me in baseball that means doing things to make your team win. In Rice's career he played on a below .500 team only once and always produced in the pressure of pennant contending races in the pressure cooker that is Boston. Meanwhile Dawson played most of his career on teams that were not in contention and won his MVP for a last place team in 1987, which I 'll never understand how much value someone adds to a last place team they would still be last without you. Advantage Rice for intangibles. Therefore I would vote for Rice over Dawson.

[Oklahawg]

 IMO the HOF has to become more about dominating your era and less about a numbers comparison
between generations since the current players are posting numbers like we did as kids in our backyard
wiffle ball league. That being said I would have to go for Rice and Gossage. Rice was the most feared middle of the lineup hitter from 1975-86 averaging close to 30 HR and 110 RBIs when those numbers meant something. Gossage was the last person a team wanted to see coming in from the bullpen during that same era
in baseball.
                    AND5

Gotta start with being the best at your position in your era. You can fudge a bit if the player has a year or two of ungodly numbers.

Dawson was a stellar defensive player. Rice was not. How's that for help?

Take away 86 of McGwire's HR and he still gets 500. He was the pre-eminent power hitter of his generation. Gotta get in at some point.

Winfield was the best OF of the Rice/Dawson era, hands down. Raines is a big notch behind Ricky Henderson (both of whom started a few years later). Who is the #3 OF of the 1974-1990 period? Do you toss Puckett in there, even though he didn't start until 1984, or so? Do you take more than 3 OF from that era??

Just some thoughts....

[LVW]

First of all I loved the way Hawk played the game,I just think Rice had more impact in the
era he played. During their careers in only the seasons they played at least 100 games(14 for Rice, 17 for Dawson) Rice averaged 143 games, 87 runs, 27 HRs, & 100 RBIs compared to Dawson's 142 games, 76 runs, 24 HRs, & 87 RBIs. Advantage for offense goes to Rice.

what about just thru their age 36 seasons- that's the fairest way to compare who was more dominant since they started at the same age

context- Rice was helped a lot by his home park- OPS 141 points higher at home; Dawson had minimal help- OPS 12 points higher at home

both won Rookie of the Year, both won an MVP(Rice did finish in the top 10 a couple of more times and Dawson finished in the top 20 one more time).

Dawson won 4 silver sluggers to Rice's 2; but even with the Fenway effect I will still give a slight edge on hitting to Rice.

Dawson cleary has him beat on defense, throwing, baserunning

for all the accalades about his performance under pressure he still only had 12 more postseason ABs than Dawson and neither player exactly distinguished themsleves as Mr. October.

[LVW]

Gotta start with being the best at your position in your era. You can fudge a bit if the player has a year or two of ungodly numbers.

Dawson was a stellar defensive player. Rice was not. How's that for help?

Take away 86 of McGwire's HR and he still gets 500. He was the pre-eminent power hitter of his generation. Gotta get in at some point.

Winfield was the best OF of the Rice/Dawson era, hands down. Raines is a big notch behind Ricky Henderson (both of whom started a few years later). Who is the #3 OF of the 1974-1990 period? Do you toss Puckett in there, even though he didn't start until 1984, or so? Do you take more than 3 OF from that era??

Just some thoughts....

not one of the top 3 but arguably the most underrated- Dwight "Dewey" Evans- good onbase guy, good consistent power(anyone realized he reached double figures in HRs 18 straight years- including 2 years where he had less than 300 ABs and another 8 years with less than 500 ABs), good range in the OF and a cannon of an arm

I think you have to put Rickey in the same era as Dawson- not including the cup of coffee in 1976 Dawson played all or parts of 20 seasons and only 2 of those were before Rickey started.

[Oklahawg]

not one of the top 3 but arguably the most underrated- Dwight "Dewey" Evans- good onbase guy, good consistent power(anyone realized he reached double figures in HRs 18 straight years- including 2 years where he had less than 300 ABs and another 8 years with less than 500 ABs), good range in the OF and a cannon of an arm

I think you have to put Rickey in the same era as Dawson- not including the cup of coffee in 1976 Dawson played all or parts of 20 seasons and only 2 of those were before Rickey started.

I go with the OF of Winfield, Henderson and Dawson and put Evans as 4th. I had forgotten him, and he was a stellar defensive OF, on par with Dawson and superior to Parker, who was no slouch.

Puckett really ushers in a different era of OF that includes Bonds, Griffey, Joe Carter, and others who came up in the 80s after the impact of the speed guys (Coleman, Henderson, Raines had taken grip). Eric Davis would have been as good as any had he avoided injuries.

Think about some of the pending discussions. First base is going to be interesting with Palmiero, McGwire, Bagwell, Vaughn (no shot, but still very good), Thomas, maybe Thome. Lots of good 1B but each has a question mark. I still think McGwire gets in but a second is likely. Palmiero is likely the first 500 HR guy to not get in.

[ErieHog]

I go with the OF of Winfield, Henderson and Dawson and put Evans as 4th. I had forgotten him, and he was a stellar defensive OF, on par with Dawson and superior to Parker, who was no slouch.

Puckett really ushers in a different era of OF that includes Bonds, Griffey, Joe Carter, and others who came up in the 80s after the impact of the speed guys (Coleman, Henderson, Raines had taken grip). Eric Davis would have been as good as any had he avoided injuries.

Think about some of the pending discussions. First base is going to be interesting with Palmiero, McGwire, Bagwell, Vaughn (no shot, but still very good), Thomas, maybe Thome. Lots of good 1B but each has a question mark. I still think McGwire gets in but a second is likely. Palmiero is likely the first 500 HR guy to not get in.

Bagwell will get in before McGwire.

[LVW]

Think about some of the pending discussions. First base is going to be interesting with Palmiero, McGwire, Bagwell, Vaughn (no shot, but still very good), Thomas, maybe Thome. Lots of good 1B but each has a question mark. I still think McGwire gets in but a second is likely. Palmiero is likely the first 500 HR guy to not get in.

As far as I'm concerned Thomas is a no brainer to get in- he had a 7 year run that's better than most players' entire careers- this was his WORST total in each category during those 7 years:

runs- 102; doubles- 26; homers- 24; rbis- 109; walks- 109; strikeouts- 112; total bases- 291; avg- .308; onbase%- .426; slug%- .536; OPS+ 177(which means at his worst during that time he was 77% better than the league average offensively); finish in the MVP voting- 8th

and add to that with all the high percentages the walks, the homers, he's not thought of as a doubles hitter, yet he's got a good shot at moving into the all time top 40 in career doubles this year.

P.S.- Palmiero had the biggest joke of a Gold Glove award BY FAR in its history- in 1999 he was awarded it playing a whopping total of 28 games at 1st.

[Oklahawg]

As far as I'm concerned Thomas is a no brainer to get in- he had a 7 year run that's better than most players' entire careers- this was his WORST total in each category during those 7 years:

runs- 102; doubles- 26; homers- 24; rbis- 109; walks- 109; strikeouts- 112; total bases- 291; avg- .308; onbase%- .426; slug%- .536; OPS+ 177(which means at his worst during that time he was 77% better than the league average offensively); finish in the MVP voting- 8th

and add to that with all the high percentages the walks, the homers, he's not thought of as a doubles hitter, yet he's got a good shot at moving into the all time top 40 in career doubles this year.

P.S.- Palmiero had the biggest joke of a Gold Glove award BY FAR in its history- in 1999 he was awarded it playing a whopping total of 28 games at 1st.

Yup, I put Thomas in very early.

[Hogtropolis™]

Looks like the Goose is the only one who got in this year.

[gutshot]

I can live with that.  In fact, it wouldn't have hurt my feelings if none of those on the ballot were selected.  Nobody really stands out head and shoulders above the rest, and I don't like to see the HOF be watered down with undeserving players.  Strictly my opinion.

[LVW]

I don't like to see the HOF be watered down with undeserving players.  Strictly my opinion.

too late for that

[hogblade]

Rice played for Boston for his entire career. Dawson spent the majority of his best days with Montreal and the Cubs when they were horrible. No pressure for his career! Rice was the man for the Boston Red Sox from the first year on.

Arguably From 1975 to 1986 there wasn't a more menacing hitter than Jim Rice. There definitley isn't one that isn't in the Hall of Fame already. Winfield and Dawson had longer careers where they continued to produce, but for that decade span Rice was the best and deserves the Hall of Fame. I think Dawson deserves it too though.

Hopefully Rice and Dawson get in next year.

[LVW]

Rice played for Boston for his entire career. Dawson spent the majority of his best days with Montreal and the Cubs when they were horrible. No pressure for his career! Rice was the man for the Boston Red Sox from the first year on.

During Dawson's 10 full seasons in Montreal they had a .515 win%; one 1st place finish, two 2nd place finishes and three 3rd place finishes(I don't call that being horrible); in 6 seasons with the Cubs they had one division title

In Rice's 14 full seasons with the Red Sox they had three 1st place finishes, two 2nd place finishes, and three 3rd place finishes

which means in two fewer seasons Rice was involved in one more 1st place finish and equal number of 2nd and 3rd place finishes; not a significant difference.

now if you compare what the Red Sox have done compared to what the Expos/Nationals and Cubs since(Dawson's last year) I say that Dawson had a greater impact on his repsective organizations when you look at the recent of history of each one

[ErieHog]

During Dawson's 10 full seasons in Montreal they had a .515 win%; one 1st place finish, two 2nd place finishes and three 3rd place finishes(I don't call that being horrible); in 6 seasons with the Cubs they had one division title

In Rice's 14 full seasons with the Red Sox they had three 1st place finishes, two 2nd place finishes, and three 3rd place finishes

which means in two fewer seasons Rice was involved in one more 1st place finish and equal number of 2nd and 3rd place finishes; not a significant difference.

now if you compare what the Red Sox have done compared to what the Expos/Nationals and Cubs since(Dawson's last year) I say that Dawson had a greater impact on his repsective organizations when you look at the recent of history of each one

The debunking of Rice as the 'most feared right handed hitter of his generation' has been done elsewhere, and quite thoroughly.   Rice was the most feared right-handed hitter--- in Fenway.  His home/road splits are atrocious, and he had less success than Dawson in terms of playing for winning teams.

[LVW]

The debunking of Rice as the 'most feared right handed hitter of his generation' has been done elsewhere, and quite thoroughly.   Rice was the most feared right-handed hitter--- in Fenway.  His home/road splits are atrocious, and he had less success than Dawson in terms of playing for winning teams.

that wasn't a slam on Rice; it was to show that the gap between how successful each player's particular team or teams was during their time is not as wide as it may appear.

[Oklahawg]

Rice played for Boston for his entire career. Dawson spent the majority of his best days with Montreal and the Cubs when they were horrible. No pressure for his career! Rice was the man for the Boston Red Sox from the first year on.

Arguably From 1975 to 1986 there wasn't a more menacing hitter than Jim Rice. There definitley isn't one that isn't in the Hall of Fame already. Winfield and Dawson had longer careers where they continued to produce, but for that decade span Rice was the best and deserves the Hall of Fame. I think Dawson deserves it too though.

Hopefully Rice and Dawson get in next year.

I'm not playing stathead right now, but my fond memories tell me that Cecil Cooper was a hellacious and feared hitter for a few years between his call-up circa 1978 and 1983 or 1984.

Would Red Sox fans say that Freddy Lynn was the most important player on that era's team?