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Letting a coach go, fresh off of 2 tourneys?... has that ever happened? (Heath)

Started by Sanctified Swine, March 18, 2018, 08:46:25 pm

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Dark Helmet Hog

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2018, 07:18:39 pm
Stan Heath was fired because Billy Clyde Gillispie was a hot property at the time and he dropped several hints to the right people that he would leave A&M for Arkansas. John White, who had pretty much forced Frank to hire Heath instead of Bill Self, said no to Gillispie at first. It was only when Frank lined up support from BOT members that could fire White that  he relented and allowed Heath to be fired. As soon as that happened Gillispie got an offer from Kentucky and he would not even return Frank's phone call.

The point is, that was an unusual situation. Heath would have never been fired if Frank had not believed that he could get Gillispie.

After all that Gillispie turned out to be a drunk. Pelphrey was a goober but Gillispie would have been worse.

.... and White keeps popping up in all these stories. Makes me sick what that man did.

hog.goblin

Quote from: Dark Helmet Hog on March 20, 2018, 07:22:59 pm
.... and White keeps popping up in all these stories. Makes me sick what that man did.


And that man is still a paid employee of the Univ of Arkansas.  Sickening.

 

sickboy

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2018, 07:18:39 pm
Stan Heath was fired because Billy Clyde Gillispie was a hot property at the time and he dropped several hints to the right people that he would leave A&M for Arkansas. John White, who had pretty much forced Frank to hire Heath instead of Bill Self, said no to Gillispie at first. It was only when Frank lined up support from BOT members that could fire White that  he relented and allowed Heath to be fired. As soon as that happened Gillispie got an offer from Kentucky and he would not even return Frank's phone call.

The point is, that was an unusual situation. Heath would have never been fired if Frank had not believed that he could get Gillispie.

After all that Gillispie turned out to be a drunk. Pelphrey was a goober but Gillispie would have been worse.

Interesting story. I vaguely remember all that, but hadn't heard it spelled out like that. Interesting story. Funny how things work out sometimes.

Kevin McPherson

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 20, 2018, 07:18:39 pm
Stan Heath was fired because Billy Clyde Gillispie was a hot property at the time and he dropped several hints to the right people that he would leave A&M for Arkansas. John White, who had pretty much forced Frank to hire Heath instead of Bill Self, said no to Gillispie at first. It was only when Frank lined up support from BOT members that could fire White that  he relented and allowed Heath to be fired. As soon as that happened Gillispie got an offer from Kentucky and he would not even return Frank's phone call.

The point is, that was an unusual situation. Heath would have never been fired if Frank had not believed that he could get Gillispie.

After all that Gillispie turned out to be a drunk. Pelphrey was a goober but Gillispie would have been worse.

While those events are true, you don't replace a coach who you believe is getting the job done. White was in over his head leading/forcing decisions and hires within the basketball program. Broyles knew that AND he knew Heath was in over his head (mismanaging the program on and off the court), so Broyles moved on an opportunity. Had the BCG situation not presented itself, it's likely Heath lasts another year, but his days were numbered.

steveaustin69

Quote from: widespreadsooie on March 20, 2018, 05:47:56 pm
I can't help you interpret numbers, maybe your math teachers couldn't either. Mike took over a program that had been to the tournament in 3 of the past 10 seasons. We have made the tournament in 3 of the past 4. Mike gets no credit for this? Nobody on this site can't present a reason other than losing to Butler or not making the Sweet 16 for firing Mike. That's a knee jerk reaction and a lack of context and patience.

3 in 7 for Mike. Mike was also lead assistant and interim coach for a couple games in a season you're referencing in your 3 in 10. I love selective math. Look at my post history if you want some reasons to fire him. He's a very average coach.

Kevin McPherson

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 21, 2018, 06:16:55 pm
3 in 7 for Mike. Mike was also lead assistant and interim coach for a couple games in a season you're referencing in your 3 in 10. I love selective math. Look at my post history if you want some reasons to fire him. He's a very average coach.

So let's talk about selective math. Aside from the academic fact that CMA has been to 3 NCAATs in his 7 years at Arkansas, it seems wrong to me to count CMA's first 2 seasons against him. He inherited a raging dumpster fire -- an APR nightmare, some toxic leftovers and a toxic culture, a roster short on size, talent, and numbers, and an overrated recruiting class that signed with Pel before he was fired. In the 5 seasons since, he's had 3 NCAATs, 1 NIT, and a 16-16 season. In each of the 5 seasons prior to the most-recent 5-year run (a.k.a. Pel's final 3 seasons, and CMA's first 2 while dealing with Pel's shite-show), Arkansas's post-season consisted of losing in the 1st-round of the SECT.


Tigaman

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 21, 2018, 07:30:55 pm
Aside from the academic fact that CMA has been to 3 NCAATs in his 7 years at Arkansas, it seems wrong to me to count CMA's first 2 seasons against him. He inherited a raging dumpster fire -- an APR nightmare, some toxic leftovers and a toxic culture, a roster short on size, talent, and numbers, and an overrated recruiting class that signed with Pel before he was fired. In the 5 seasons since, he's had 3 NCAATs, 1 NIT, and a 16-16 season. In each of the 5 seasons prior to the most-recent 5-year run (a.k.a. Pel's final 3 seasons, and CMA's first 2 while dealing with Pel's shite-show), Arkansas's post-season consisted of losing in the 1st-round of the SECT.



He didn't inherit an APR mess. Pel was the one that fixed it. When CMA got hired the only problem was the year with Heath's recruits. We were just waiting for that year to leave the 4 year average. CMA inherited a really good recruiting class, better than the one that people are touting right now. The program as a whole was in better shape than what Pel inherited from Heath.

Kevin McPherson

Quote from: Tigaman on March 21, 2018, 07:35:01 pm
He didn't inherit an APR mess. Pel was the one that fixed it. When CMA got hired the only problem was the year with Heath's recruits. We were just waiting for that year to leave the 4 year average. CMA inherited a really good recruiting class, better than the one that people are touting right now. The program as a whole was in better shape than what Pel inherited from Heath.

I'm sorry, but Pel was constantly suspending players (seemed like it was weekly), kicking players out of the program, players were leaving or trying to (he actually had players who tried to quit DURING games) ... those were guys he recruited and brought through his revolving door of toxicity. Forget about his woeful record on the court, an internal review of the program after his 4th season led to his ouster ... and yes, the program was under APR trouble that began with Heath but continued under Pel ... the class that came in was not as good as advertised ... neither HM (Top 100) nor KM (Top 40) lived up to his recruiting ranking (both were overrated), and BJY (5*) was a talented one-trick pony who was not coachable and blew out after 2 seasons. MP wrecked his knee in game 2 of CMA's 1st season, came back the following year but was always a challenge to get to play hard, especially on D.

Because of APR, CMA couldn't just turnover the roster. Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, Scott, Nobles, and Haydar (walk-on) were your veterans, and BJY, KM, HM, and Abrons were your rookies. Pel not only left the cupboard bare, he turned the program inside-out with all the bad characters he brought in and ran off before leaving the next coach the gift of a dumpster fire.

widespreadsooie

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 21, 2018, 06:16:55 pm
3 in 7 for Mike. Mike was also lead assistant and interim coach for a couple games in a season you're referencing in your 3 in 10. I love selective math. Look at my post history if you want some reasons to fire him. He's a very average coach.

I figure a "selective math" savant would be aware of the progress Mike has made with the program. Why in the hell would I read your post history? Make your argument here. Kevin's already explained what Mike inherited and he's spot on, as usual. Big picture, so many fail to see it and that's what kills me as a fan.

Kevin

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 21, 2018, 07:53:37 pm
I'm sorry, but Pel was constantly suspending players (seemed like it was weekly), kicking players out of the program, players were leaving or trying to (he actually had players who tried to quit DURING games) ... those were guys he recruited and brought through his revolving door of toxicity. Forget about his woeful record on the court, an internal review of the program after his 4th season led to his ouster ... and yes, the program was under APR trouble that began with Heath but continued under Pel ... the class that came in was not as good as advertised ... neither HM (Top 100) nor KM (Top 40) lived up to his recruiting ranking (both were overrated), and BJY (5*) was a talented one-trick pony who was not coachable and blew out after 2 seasons. MP wrecked his knee in game 2 of CMA's 1st season, came back the following year but was always a challenge to get to play hard, especially on D.

Because of APR, CMA couldn't just turnover the roster. Sanchez, Waithe, Wade, Scott, Nobles, and Haydar (walk-on) were your veterans, and BJY, KM, HM, and Abrons were your rookies. Pel not only left the cupboard bare, he turned the program inside-out with all the bad characters he brought in and ran off before leaving the next coach the gift of a dumpster fire.

Funny the twist and turns to suooort Anderson. Re write history if you need to no problem

The apr was heath's. None of the seniors pel inherited graduated. They were on the books for four years.

Pel signed everyone on hogville said he had to sign in that class the year he got fired. Now that class was not that good.

Pel did a lot of wrong things. And the program was toxic. But let's not re write history.

Fact is Anderson has been coaching in a league that has been awful most of his time here. He could not get close to win the league.

We are 7 years in. He just had a team of 6 seniors and tied for fourth. Made no sec tournament or NCAA tournament run. Now next year, because of his roster mismanagement we will be young and probably not an NCAA team.

Like I said the bar just keeps getting lowered to accommodate this average coach

Texas a&m is in the sweet sixteen. Texas freakin a&m.  But we are not suppose to expect that at Arkansas for an7 years head coach
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Nickle-Pig

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steveaustin69

Quote from: widespreadsooie on March 21, 2018, 09:59:08 pm
I figure a "selective math" savant would be aware of the progress Mike has made with the program. Why in the hell would I read your post history? Make your argument here. Kevin's already explained what Mike inherited and he's spot on, as usual. Big picture, so many fail to see it and that's what kills me as a fan.

Here you go since you want to be willfully ignorant. APR was Heath's issue; but alternative facts. No other coach would get this much time. NONE. His mediocre record has been beaten to death; it's not very good and you have to excuse his first three years to make it look halfway decent. Any time you have to shine a turd well..

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 21, 2018, 05:15:45 am
And not one of them is a top 100 player; Mike's developed three quality players who were ranked outside of the top 100 as Freshman coming to Arkansas (one didn't finish his career at Arkansas) Jacorey Williams, Qualls, Anthlon Bell

Coincidence this equals the number of tournament appearances in seven years?

If you want to stretch this and include transfers we'll add Alandise Harris and Dusty Hannahs. So developing less than a man a year into a serious contributor when they aren't highly rated is supposed to give me confidence? These two also would have come to Arkansas no matter who the coach was; it wasn't some great coup by Mike to steal them away after they had productive Fr, So seasons.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 20, 2018, 02:58:06 pm
SEC Rank

Rivals --5th
247--6th
ESPN--5t

While the two co-regular season champs return nearly everything.

We are treading water.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 20, 2018, 07:44:26 am
Yeah well we rank 196 in TRBPG and 261 in Rebounding Margin PG so seems like a constant issue.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 20, 2018, 11:26:03 am
Keep spinning it, man. I'll ask you this:

Is it unreasonable to expect: 1) build a fence around the state and get one to two top 75 players from out of state scholarships permitting every year 2) have D1 level defensive rotations to not allow wide open 3s 3) have your bigs put a butt on a man when a shot goes up (box out) 4) game plan for your opponent; take away their best player; don't only "focus on what you do"

If these things happened do we win a national championship? Probably not. That is very, very hard to do.  Would we have significantly more success? Yes.

If you think this is an unreasonable expectation I vehemently disagree.


Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 19, 2018, 12:24:54 pm
Mike's Conference Finishes: 8, 7, 5, 2, T8, 3, T4

Zero Tourney Championships

In what many would argue was a pretty poor SEC aside from this year.

What an astounding track record of monumental success

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 18, 2018, 05:42:44 pm
What's more indicative of future performance: those two seasons or the fourteen other seasons?

I'm no statistician but I'd probably err on the side of the fourteen other seasons!

3/7

Quote from: steveaustin69 on March 06, 2018, 10:59:43 pm
This isn't an opinion: we foul too much, we shoot a low percentage and thus less free throws because of missed one and ones and your data clearly shows EVERY team gets more calls at home (shocking revelation)

Mike's teams ranking in personal fouls for his career from present to past:

40, 12, 62, 25, 43, 41, 101, 35, 55, 3, 59, 103, 148, 24, 9, 3

Mike's teams have been in the top 20% of personal fouls 13 of 16 years.

16 years. 3 Programs. 3 Conferences.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 28, 2018, 08:40:28 am
It's terrible.  That's 13th in the SEC and 312th in the nation.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 27, 2018, 08:54:55 am
Yeah. The problem is we don't do any of those. Theoretically if you close up you'll give up lower percentage of twos, less offensive boards, but a higher percentage of threes. Vice versa for your other scenario.

Defensive ranks:

2p%: 136
3p%: 179
O Reb: 284

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 26, 2018, 08:33:43 am
This is Mike's ceiling. Can't defend the three or rebound; good teams will punish you for those mistakes. We don't turn the ball over at a high enough rate to compensate for the high percentage looks. Bama had a multitude of unforced errors Saturday, and we still let them hang around by shooting 40% from three. Up 9 to up 5 in a two minute situation in a 20 second span due to two wide open threes. A good team will make you pay for that.

Season defensive ranks:

Overall FG%: 118
2Pt FG %: 138
3Pt FG %: 178
FTA: 328
ORB: 288
DRB: 164
Assists Conceded: 194
TO Forced: 93

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 23, 2018, 10:07:21 am
Conference game ranks:

Overall FG%: 9
2Pt FG %: 7
3Pt Made: 13 (seems like we may give up a lot of open looks)
3Pt Att: 11 (seems like we may give up a lot of open looks)
3Pt FG %: 11
FTA: 14 (seems like we may foul a lot because of constant switching/being out of position)
ORB: 12
DRB: 10
Assists Conceded: 12
TO Forced: 6
PPG: 14

We are a bad defensive basketball team for the season, out of conference, and in conference. Numbers do not lie.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 23, 2018, 09:54:36 am
Playing good defense for 4 of 40 minutes does not mean we are good or even average.  Not sure why you think micro analysis is appropriate when assessing a team's season or overall ability.  Bobby Portis dropped 38 last night; I'd say he played pretty well offensively. Should we now anoint him the next Tim Duncan? Sure, if you shrink your sample size to the appropriate period, at times we've played average defense.  Ever heard of the phrase: regression to the mean? After 28 games, odds are you are what you are.

Season defensive ranks:

Overall FG%: 118
2Pt FG %: 134
3Pt FG %: 169
FTA: 326
ORB: 293
DRB: 178
Assists Conceded: 193
TO Forced: 102
Fouls: 232
PPG: 260

We held P5 football teams below their season average twice. Of the other games, we held them within a score of their average three times. By your line of thinking we weren't bad, we just had uneven effort. Bad at times; good some other times.

Ignoring a 28 game sample size is, well, it's something.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 22, 2018, 10:42:22 pm
Ha. Stay in your lane? Really? That's your comeback? Way to prove exactly what he said right.

Still waiting on an actual answer to how Mike's D is so great.

Opponent 3pt FG % ranks during Mike's tenure: 93, 272, 195, 226, 259, 83, 170

Please explain to me how this is indicative of a good coach running a good defense.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 22, 2018, 12:53:30 pm
Teams have shot above their season FG% in 9 of our 15 conference games.

Teams have shot above their season 3pt FG% in 9 of our 15 conference games.

We've allowed teams to shoot better than 50% from 3 three times. We've allowed teams to shoot better than 40% from 3 five times. That is bad.

Aside from Vandy, the other games the team typically shot a few tenths of a percent less than their average.

Seems like a lot of teams "click" against us.

Quote from: steveaustin69 on February 22, 2018, 10:00:29 am


We've given up blow bys and open threes for 7 years. I don't think a defense that consistently allows high percentage looks is "fine."  The adjustment for these mistakes is not difficult. They are simply not made.  Don't you think we'd win some more games if that didn't happen?

Forget about the defense; let's harp on something else wrong with Mike's coaching related to fundamentals.  We rank 250th in the nation in rebounding margin. Have you ever seen this team or any of his teams consistently find a man and actually box out when a shot goes up? Don't you think we'd have another road win at MSU if we didn't give up offensive rebound after offensive rebound?

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 21, 2018, 07:30:55 pm
So let's talk about selective math. Aside from the academic fact that CMA has been to 3 NCAATs in his 7 years at Arkansas, it seems wrong to me to count CMA's first 2 seasons against him. He inherited a raging dumpster fire -- an APR nightmare, some toxic leftovers and a toxic culture, a roster short on size, talent, and numbers, and an overrated recruiting class that signed with Pel before he was fired. In the 5 seasons since, he's had 3 NCAATs, 1 NIT, and a 16-16 season. In each of the 5 seasons prior to the most-recent 5-year run (a.k.a. Pel's final 3 seasons, and CMA's first 2 while dealing with Pel's shite-show), Arkansas's post-season consisted of losing in the 1st-round of the SECT.

APR had already started improving under Pelphrey.  You know this.  What it hindered was Mike running players off.  Perhaps though had he spent his last year at Mizzou at least keeping in touch with recruits he may have had some options.  Nobody forced Mike to sign the players he has either. 

If Mike were the disciplinarian he is supposed to be according to the campaigners, why couldn't he handle the culture better?  It improved by him signing Jacorey Williams and Michael Qualls and continuing to give them along with Harris chance after chance?  Those one game suspensions were really tough discipline.  ::) How about this last group and their off the court actions?  You keep whitewashing over this era though.  Never his fault.  Always the victim.  The job is too tough for him.  The situation he inherited was too tough. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

 

Kevin McPherson

I brought relative data that supports the situation that CMA faced when he arrived, it would have been the same dumpster fire no matter who inherited it, and the same "2-year pass" would have been fair for any coach. Anyway, I've bolded my responses next to your comments below ...

Quote from: Kevin on March 21, 2018, 10:37:48 pm
Funny the twist and turns to suooort Anderson. Re write history if you need to no problem

The apr was heath's. None of the seniors pel inherited graduated. They were on the books for four years. The APR was a mess under Heath, but Pel didn't "fix it". I was told there were at least 2 situations under Pel that perpetuated the APR issues, AND let's not forget there was an academic scandal under his watch that led to Patrick Beverley's dismissal. I'm not saying the latter was a direct reflection of Pel, but there was a lot of off-court chaos under his watch.

Pel signed everyone on hogville said he had to sign in that class the year he got fired. Now that class was not that good. Pel's last class was a great class on paper, CMA had to retain it a) because it looked to be a very good class that included homegrown kids, and b) it represented roughly a third of the roster and it was too late to start from scratch on that class (CMA was hired in late March 2011, early signing period had passed and spring period 2-3 weeks away).  It's not the first time that a class has not lived up to billing in college basketball, so it's not hypocritical to say on the front end that the class had to be retained as must-gets, then reflect after their careers and acknowledge that the players did not live up to billing for various reasons.

Pel did a lot of wrong things. And the program was toxic. But let's not re write history.

Fact is Anderson has been coaching in a league that has been awful most of his time here. He could not get close to win the league. The SEC has not been "awful" in recent seasons -- 5 teams in Dance in '14-15 when Hogs finished 2nd to undefeated KY in the SEC, 5 teams in '16-17 when Arkansas finished 3rd in SEC (and 3 of those made the Elite Eight), 8 teams in this year ... the league has been better going back a few years, but only this year was it talked about widely in college hoops circles. And tell me what other programs outside of Kentucky (and Florida when Billy Donovan was there) have been regularly, legitimately challenging for the league crown every year? In the 3-year span prior to this season, Arkansas was 2nd only to KY in total wins, SEC wins, SEC road wins, SEC wins away from home (this includes SEC road and SECT gms), SECT finals appearances, and NCAAT appearancess ... I haven't YET calculated this season's results to report the last 4-year span, but I'll bet Arkansas is still 2nd only to KY in several of those categories and no worse than 3rd in a league that has been MUCH improved, especially compared to when Pel was captaining one of the bottom-half programs in a weak SEC.

We are 7 years in. He just had a team of 6 seniors and tied for fourth. Made no sec tournament or NCAA tournament run. Now next year, because of his roster mismanagement we will be young and probably not an NCAA team. No SECT run? I'd say knocking off the 3-seed and getting to the SECT semis (final four) after no double-bye was respectable, especially in a league placing 8 teams that would have all been at-large picks and safely in the Dance. And going back over the past 4 seasons, Arkansas has 2 SECT finals appearances to go with this year's semifinals run -- remember all those consecutive year's of postseason being completely over after the 1st-round game of the SECT? True, no NCAAT run for any of CMA's 3 NCAAT teams, and I think criticism is fair based on that. So much is based on match-ups, favorable seeding and location, but at some point the coach at Arkansas (whoever that is) has to deliver on some NCAAT success beyond the first weekend of the Dance, and that has not happened. I'm with all fans who believe the prolonged lack of "national" success/relevance is unacceptable at Arkansas.

Like I said the bar just keeps getting lowered to accommodate this average coach. See, it strains the credibility of your argument (anyone's, for that matter) when a "good" coach is referred to as "average". CMA has proven to be a good coach at all of his stops, to say he's average comes off as petty, or uninformed. I'm not going to post his resume on here, but he's been a winner. That's not to say he's met all of the reasonable expectations at Arkansas, because I don't believe he has.

Texas a&m is in the sweet sixteen. Texas freakin a&m.  But we are not suppose to expect that at Arkansas for an7 years head coach.

Kevin McPherson

Quote from: Atlhogfan1 on March 22, 2018, 08:37:37 am
APR had already started improving under Pelphrey.  You know this.  What it hindered was Mike running players off.  Perhaps though had he spent his last year at Mizzou at least keeping in touch with recruits he may have had some options.  Nobody forced Mike to sign the players he has either. 

If Mike were the disciplinarian he is supposed to be according to the campaigners, why couldn't he handle the culture better?  It improved by him signing Jacorey Williams and Michael Qualls and continuing to give them along with Harris chance after chance?  Those one game suspensions were really tough discipline.  ::) How about this last group and their off the court actions?  You keep whitewashing over this era though.  Never his fault.  Always the victim.  The job is too tough for him.  The situation he inherited was too tough.

The program now is vastly better off than it was under Heath and Pel, but its not where I think it reasonably can be. I made the point CMA should not have been graded based on the first 2 seasons, that's reasonable, but its not an excuse for everything or a lifetime pass to be the HC. This is his program and the clock on grading his results (Ws and Ls, NCAATs, etc) started his 3rd season (Jeff Long said his first 3 years should not count against him, and I disagreed with that). Yes, he's had players with off-the-court issues, but nothing like the overall level and volume from the previous staffs.

What's funny to me is that any defense of CMA's tenure using facts and data is extrapolated into some narrative that he gets a lifetime pass as HC and is meeting/exceeding all expectations. You can acknowledge real progress and the fact he inherited a mess -- all backed up by facts, no whitewashing -- while simultaneously expecting more and making valid criticisms. Those are not (and should never be) mutually exclusive.

GuvHog

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 22, 2018, 11:08:45 am
I brought relative data that supports the situation that CMA faced when he arrived, it would have been the same dumpster fire no matter who inherited it, and the same "2-year pass" would have been fair for any coach. Anyway, I've bolded my responses next to your comments below ...


Mike Anderson did not inherit a dumpster fire when he arrived at Arkansas. John Pelphrey was the one who inherited the dumpster fire and the program was facing losing multiple scholarships due to APR problems. By his last year, Pelphrey had cleaned theings up to the point that Arkansas would eventually lose only 1 scholarship due to previous APR problems rather than Multiple scholarships. The Hogs earned an NIT birth that year, and had a top 10 recruiting class headed to campus with one of the top guards in the Nation that would have been returning for his senior year.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

GuvHog

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 22, 2018, 02:06:27 pm
The program now is vastly better off than it was under Heath and Pel, but its not where I think it reasonably can be. I made the point CMA should not have been graded based on the first 2 seasons, that's reasonable, but its not an excuse for everything or a lifetime pass to be the HC. This is his program and the clock on grading his results (Ws and Ls, NCAATs, etc) started his 3rd season (Jeff Long said his first 3 years should not count against him, and I disagreed with that). Yes, he's had players with off-the-court issues, but nothing like the overall level and volume from the previous staffs.

What's funny to me is that any defense of CMA's tenure using facts and data is extrapolated into some narrative that he gets a lifetime pass as HC and is meeting/exceeding all expectations. You can acknowledge real progress and the fact he inherited a mess -- all backed up by facts, no whitewashing -- while simultaneously expecting more and making valid criticisms. Those are not (and should never be) mutually exclusive.

The program is currently better of than it was under Heath.

We'll never know how good the program would have been under Pelphrey since he only got 4 years which is embarrassingly ridiculous.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

#1 STUNNA

I personally think its crazy we wanna get rid of a coach with the second highest winning percentage in the SEC... third if you want to count the florida coach.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 22, 2018, 02:06:27 pm
The program now is vastly better off than it was under Heath and Pel, but its not where I think it reasonably can be. I made the point CMA should not have been graded based on the first 2 seasons, that's reasonable, but its not an excuse for everything or a lifetime pass to be the HC. This is his program and the clock on grading his results (Ws and Ls, NCAATs, etc) started his 3rd season (Jeff Long said his first 3 years should not count against him, and I disagreed with that). Yes, he's had players with off-the-court issues, but nothing like the overall level and volume from the previous staffs.

What's funny to me is that any defense of CMA's tenure using facts and data is extrapolated into some narrative that he gets a lifetime pass as HC and is meeting/exceeding all expectations. You can acknowledge real progress and the fact he inherited a mess -- all backed up by facts, no whitewashing -- while simultaneously expecting more and making valid criticisms. Those are not (and should never be) mutually exclusive.

I agree with much of what you say.

Quote from: #1 STUNNA on March 22, 2018, 03:29:54 pm
I personally think its crazy we wanna get rid of a coach with the second highest winning percentage in the SEC... third if you want to count the florida coach.

But it's these p.r. anecdotes which makes it appear many believe he "is meeting/exceeding all expectations". 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: Kevin McPherson on March 22, 2018, 02:06:27 pm
The program now is vastly better off than it was under Heath and Pel, but its not where I think it reasonably can be. I made the point CMA should not have been graded based on the first 2 seasons, that's reasonable, but its not an excuse for everything or a lifetime pass to be the HC. This is his program and the clock on grading his results (Ws and Ls, NCAATs, etc) started his 3rd season (Jeff Long said his first 3 years should not count against him, and I disagreed with that). Yes, he's had players with off-the-court issues, but nothing like the overall level and volume from the previous staffs.

What's funny to me is that any defense of CMA's tenure using facts and data is extrapolated into some narrative that he gets a lifetime pass as HC and is meeting/exceeding all expectations. You can acknowledge real progress and the fact he inherited a mess -- all backed up by facts, no whitewashing -- while simultaneously expecting more and making valid criticisms. Those are not (and should never be) mutually exclusive.

Based on Irwin's quote in hob's thread, he has a lifetime pass to be HC.  We should be okay with this?  Whatever happens is okay because it's most important he is HC? 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

steveaustin69

Quote from: #1 STUNNA on March 22, 2018, 03:29:54 pm
I personally think its crazy we wanna get rid of a coach with the second highest winning percentage in the SEC... third if you want to count the florida coach.

So he's 3rd. I'm not sure how you managed to spin that one, but you did. Even if you only take Mike's last three years, same time frame White's been at Florida it's still below him.

He is first in winning percentage if we exclude the other 13 SEC coaches.

Nickle-Pig

Mike Anderson is one of four current Division I coaches with 15 years of head coaching experience and zero losing seasons. 1 of 4 in D-1
Social sites are where cowards go to get a cup of courage.

Pork Twain

The real question is are we really a much better team after year 7?  Don't get me wrong, I acknowledge that his record is better than Heath/Pel, but is just being better than those two really all we are asking for?  I guess Sutton and Nolan spoiled me and I know what Arkansas is capable of and just winning more than we lose is not good enough.  We have NOT made it past the 2nd round of the NCAA since the 1995/96 season.

The similarities to HDN are all too real. 
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

Pork Twain

Quote from: Nickle-Pig on March 23, 2018, 01:28:12 am
Mike Anderson is one of four current Division I coaches with 15 years of head coaching experience and zero losing seasons. 1 of 4 in D-1
How many final fours has he been to?  Winning is more important to me than just not losing.
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/

 

Großer Kriegschwein

Quote from: Pork Twain on March 23, 2018, 03:36:35 am
How many final fours has he been to?  Winning is more important to me than just not losing.

well put
This is my non-signature signature.

Nickle-Pig

Quote from: Pork Twain on March 23, 2018, 03:36:35 am
How many final fours has he been to?  Winning is more important to me than just not losing.

new age logic?
Social sites are where cowards go to get a cup of courage.

HogBreath

Quote from: #1 STUNNA on March 22, 2018, 03:29:54 pm
I personally think its crazy we wanna get rid of a coach with the second highest winning percentage in the SEC... third if you want to count the florida coach.
I personally, would not count the Florida coach, and in many instances, not the Kentucky coach either.

Coach Mike number one.
I said...LSU has often been an overrated team.

That ignoramus Draconian Sanctions said..if we're overrated, why are we ranked higher than you are?

Hoggish1


hog.goblin

Quote from: Nickle-Pig on March 23, 2018, 01:28:12 am
Mike Anderson is one of four current Division I coaches with 15 years of head coaching experience and zero losing seasons. 1 of 4 in D-1

Coach K isn't one of those 4.  Clearly CMA is better than coach K...

Kevin

NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT THE PROGRAM IS NOT BETTER NOW, THAN UNDER HEATH & PEL.  Good Grief.

The frustrations is this program year in & year out should be a top 25 program.  There should be some excitement going into every conference season, conference tournament, ncaa tournament. but there is not, Anderson's history has proven, he is not taking home any hardware. A poster just celebrated the fact that the hogs got to the sec semi-finals. REALLY!!

Anderson is a steady coach. He is going to put together seasons just like the one we had. good not great.

to some of us, that is not good enough.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Nickle-Pig

Quote from: Kevin on March 23, 2018, 08:13:57 am
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT THE PROGRAM IS NOT BETTER NOW, THAN UNDER HEATH & PEL.  Good Grief.

The frustrations is this program year in & year out should be a top 25 program.  There should be some excitement going into every conference season, conference tournament, ncaa tournament. but there is not, Anderson's history has proven, he is not taking home any hardware. A poster just celebrated the fact that the hogs got to the sec semi-finals. REALLY!!

Anderson is a steady coach. He is going to put together seasons just like the one we had. good not great.

to some of us, that is not good enough.


Some of our fans are not good enough.
Social sites are where cowards go to get a cup of courage.

Atlhogfan1

Quote from: Kevin on March 23, 2018, 08:13:57 am
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT THE PROGRAM IS NOT BETTER NOW, THAN UNDER HEATH & PEL.  Good Grief.

The frustrations is this program year in & year out should be a top 25 program.  There should be some excitement going into every conference season, conference tournament, ncaa tournament. but there is not, Anderson's history has proven, he is not taking home any hardware. A poster just celebrated the fact that the hogs got to the sec semi-finals. REALLY!!

Anderson is a steady coach. He is going to put together seasons just like the one we had. good not great.

to some of us, that is not good enough.

The frustration is this isn't a normal situation where you have a coach who was just hired to do a job.  When it's personal like this and the coach is at his dream job, too young still to be at retirement decision and the decision makers are at the least hesitant to put any real pressure on him, then you start getting fans who feel the program is trapped.  Nutt era after it was announced he had a free pass to lose for two seasons because a DE may have chosen A&M due to the Harrod investigation. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Kevin McPherson

Quote from: Kevin on March 23, 2018, 08:13:57 am
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT THE PROGRAM IS NOT BETTER NOW, THAN UNDER HEATH & PEL.  Good Grief.

The frustrations is this program year in & year out should be a top 25 program.  There should be some excitement going into every conference season, conference tournament, ncaa tournament. but there is not, Anderson's history has proven, he is not taking home any hardware. A poster just celebrated the fact that the hogs got to the sec semi-finals. REALLY!!

Anderson is a steady coach. He is going to put together seasons just like the one we had. good not great.

to some of us, that is not good enough.

Nobody celebrated a SECT semifinal run ... you said in a previous post that the end of the season was disappointing for a senior-laden team because there was no SECT or NCAAT run, and I merely pointed out that missing on the double-bye yet beating the 3-seed (also a ranked team at the time) in Florida to reach the SECT semis (final four) in a league loaded with 8 NCAAT at-large teams was "respectable." That's not a celebration, it's a fair point to give some credit where credit is due. The SEC was not an easy gauntlet, seems most of the NCAAT teams from the league suffered through 3-, 4-, in some cases 5-game losing streaks during league play... so, while Hogs faring well but not winning the SECT may be nothing to "celebrate", finally beating Florida (coupled with winning 8 out of their last 11 games before the NCAAT) had a lot of fans excited about their chances in the NCAAT (which also flies in the face of your assessment that fans weren't excited going into the NCAAT).

You also said earlier ITT that CMA was an "average" coach, yet in your most-recent post (quoted just above) you said he is "steady" with "good not great" seasons ... that sounds to me like you're acknowledging he's a good coach (maybe not, maybe you believe an average coach can consistently yield good results) ... whatever, overall winning, road and away winning, SECT success and making NCAATs have all been trending up and putting UA in the top 2-3 in the SEC, and finally recruiting is trending up, too ... at the same time, no run past the 1st weekend of the NCAAT and scant appearances in the national rankings are reasonable concerns for a 7-year coach leading a program like Arkansas.

It's perfectly fine to expect more at Arkansas -- i.e. consistent rankings and getting past the first weekend of the NCAAT -- but keep in mind when posters defend the actual record/situation with facts, that's not necessarily the same as saying everything is acceptable within the program. You can acknowlege real, tangible success while also believing and voicing that it's not enough.

I'd say that "most" fans, not "some", believe Arkansas can and should achieve more success.

Kevin

making a run in the sec tournament is the finals. you make it sound like some accomplishment, it wasn't
average /good is all the same when it come to coaching.

any other coach with these numbers would not have lasted at arkansas, period.  but it is anderson, who was on staff for the 94 title team, so he gets a life time pass at arkansas. the propaganda machine in fayetteville, will use the all to accomadating media, to make sure the masses are happy with this average/good program.

why do you think the afternoon sports talk guys is having on old hogs to talk about how great anderson is? all part of the plan.

just seems like a lot of work is being done, to convince people that anderson is better than his record. 

it goes back to how the world is, don't beleive what you can see yourself, beleive what i tell you
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Pork Twain

Quote from: Kevin on March 23, 2018, 08:13:57 am
NOBODY IS ARGUING THAT THE PROGRAM IS NOT BETTER NOW, THAN UNDER HEATH & PEL.  Good Grief.

The frustrations is this program year in & year out should be a top 25 program.  There should be some excitement going into every conference season, conference tournament, ncaa tournament. but there is not, Anderson's history has proven, he is not taking home any hardware. A poster just celebrated the fact that the hogs got to the sec semi-finals. REALLY!!

Anderson is a steady coach. He is going to put together seasons just like the one we had. good not great.

to some of us, that is not good enough.

Well said
"It is better to be an optimist and proven wrong, than a pessimist and proven right." ~Pork Twain

https://www.facebook.com/groups/sweetmemes/


coolhog

You have to have a smart tournament coach to advance a team in the NCAA, and Mike isn't one.
Our biggest problem has been getting a AD
That can make the correct hire.
Still not sure we have one.