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Disbelief at the LPGA

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GolfNut57:

So Lexi Thompson has a 3 stroke lead in the final round of the ANA Inspiration and is headed to the 13th tee when officials inform her she was being assessed a FOUR shot penalty for allegedly incorrectly replacing her ball on the mark for a 1 foot putt on hole seventeen yesterday afternoon. Seems a viewer watching on TV called in the perceived infraction. So instead of being up by three Lexi now trails by one stroke. She did manage to tie the new leader but lost the tourney in the playoff.

That is just such BS that a golfer can lose when some ref wannabe can call in from Timbuktu and affect a tourney winner in such a way. Lexi got screwed!

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19062269/lexi-thompson-gets-4-shot-penalty-loses-major-viewer-email

pigture perfect:

That sucks. People need to mind they own biness.

GolfNut57:

They claim she might have been off by one INCH in correctly replacing her ball. Now how in hell can a viewer, let alone the cameras get such a defined picture that they can tell that? And on a putt of one stinking foot that anyone in the world can make with their eyes closed. Just total BS!

Jackrabbit Hog:

If she's devastated over this I'll offer my services to console her.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: GolfNut57 on April 02, 2017, 10:10:53 pm ---So Lexi Thompson has a 3 stroke lead in the final round of the ANA Inspiration and is headed to the 13th tee when officials inform her she was being assessed a FOUR shot penalty for allegedly incorrectly replacing her ball on the mark for a 1 foot putt on hole seventeen yesterday afternoon. Seems a viewer watching on TV called in the perceived infraction. So instead of being up by three Lexi now trails by one stroke. She did manage to tie the new leader but lost the tourney in the playoff.

That is just such BS that a golfer can lose when some ref wannabe can call in from Timbuktu and affect a tourney winner in such a way. Lexi got screwed!

http://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/19062269/lexi-thompson-gets-4-shot-penalty-loses-major-viewer-email

--- End quote ---

Glad you posted this because I knew something had happened but didn't know what.  Not the first time someone called in and a player suffers but I guess I'm wondering what are you doing marking a one foot putt? 

ricepig:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 06:32:47 am ---Glad you posted this because I knew something had happened but didn't know what.  Not the first time someone called in and a player suffers but I guess I'm wondering what are you doing marking a one foot putt? 

--- End quote ---

Making it an 11" putt??

onebadrubi:

Isn't this one of their new rules, to not allow this type of thing?

Also, golf should of had a time frame on this, once that score card was signed or something they should not allow it to be changed. Just stupid, but I didn't know anyone watched the LPGA anyways...

GolfNut57:


--- Quote from: onebadrubi on April 03, 2017, 07:47:11 am ---Isn't this one of their new rules, to not allow this type of thing?

Also, golf should of had a time frame on this, once that score card was signed or something they should not allow it to be changed. Just stupid, but I didn't know anyone watched the LPGA anyways...

--- End quote ---

The only rule change from last year that I know of is they no longer disqualify you for the incorrect scorecard in that scenario. You just get a 2 stroke penalty for it. In her case she also got the additional 2 strokes added for the improper replacing of her ball making it a four stroke screw job.

GolfNut57:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 06:32:47 am ---Glad you posted this because I knew something had happened but didn't know what.  Not the first time someone called in and a player suffers but I guess I'm wondering what are you doing marking a one foot putt?

--- End quote ---

To avoid standing on someone's line I guess. <shrug>

hogsanity:

That viewers can call in infractions in golf is a joke. Usually in majors each group has a rules official or at least each hole has one, so if the players does not self report, his or her playing partner (s) do not see it, no caddies sees, and the walking marshal and/or rules official doe not see it, well then they just get away with it.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: GolfNut57 on April 03, 2017, 08:11:51 am ---To avoid standing on someone's line I guess. <shrug>

--- End quote ---

You know this jerk has a group he plays in.  Wonder what they think about him?  Guarantee he's a dick. 

Iwastherein1969:

This is horse manure....I've seen Spieth, Woods more than anyone, Bubba Watson...damn I can't nor will try to name them all....Americans do it for some reason....many American pro's mark the ball on the green just to the side, not directly behind and then they replace the ball directly in front of the mark...they don't do it every time, but on shorter putts there are spike marks and just a one inch variation in angle can get an unwanted spike mark just out of your line....Yeah, I think it's Chickenshite, too, but those are the rules of golf until 2019 when you can begin to repair spike marks.


ad: must have been an old dried up heifer who is jealous of Lexie's looks and popularity to make that call...I mean, how can any heterosexual male do something like give a female who looks like this a 4 shot penalty...some of you shorter guys out there might give Lexie a four inch penalty, but, oh well, glad I don't have that power outage

Jackrabbit Hog:

After seeing the video this morning, I think she did deserve a penalty for an improper mark - and I think it was just carelessness on her part, certainly nothing nefarious about it.  However, the thing that gets me is the "piling on" effect of the penalty shots.  Make it 2 shots for the bad mark, or 2 shots for the incorrect scorecard, but not both.  My gosh, I don't think I've ever heard of a 4 shot penalty for one mistake like what happened to Lexi, certainly not when the stakes were so high.

hogsanity:


--- Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on April 03, 2017, 12:00:00 pm ---After seeing the video this morning, I think she did deserve a penalty for an improper mark - and I think it was just carelessness on her part, certainly nothing nefarious about it.  However, the thing that gets me is the "piling on" effect of the penalty shots.  Make it 2 shots for the bad mark, or 2 shots for the incorrect scorecard, but not both.  My gosh, I don't think I've ever heard of a 4 shot penalty for one mistake like what happened to Lexi, certainly not when the stakes were so high.

--- End quote ---

Until recently she would have been dq'd once they assessed the penalty for the bad mark because she would have signed an incorrect scorecard.

The whole viewer reported thing is just absurd.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on April 03, 2017, 12:00:00 pm ---My gosh, I don't think I've ever heard of a 4 shot penalty for one mistake

--- End quote ---

I didn't know there was one either.  I'd heard of a two stroke but not 4.   

Dillar Dog:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 12:12:57 pm ---I didn't know there was one either.  I'd heard of a two stroke but not 4.   

--- End quote ---

2 penalties, 2 strokes each.

onebadrubi:


--- Quote from: GolfNut57 on April 03, 2017, 08:10:39 am ---The only rule change from last year that I know of is they no longer disqualify you for the incorrect scorecard in that scenario. You just get a 2 stroke penalty for it. In her case she also got the additional 2 strokes added for the improper replacing of her ball making it a four stroke screw job.

--- End quote ---

I believe in the new rules they proposed a month ago, the ability to call in from TV and mention the breaking of a rule will not be allowed.  I believe it was an interpretation of a rulling on either ball movement or relief, but this is off of my memory. 

hoghappy:

It should have just been a 2 stroke penalty. She had signed he score card
In good faith. For my opinion, the penalty should have not been assessed after she started the next days round.

GolfNut57:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 09:32:58 am ---You know this jerk has a group he plays in.  Wonder what they think about him?  Guarantee he's a dick.

--- End quote ---

Could have been a woman that called it in....as was mentioned below. The article said they actually sent an email reporting it.

hogsanity:

I played golf competitively for many years, played on scholarship for two years in college, watched more golf on tv than any human should, and I have never, not one time, said " oh crap they just made a violation, I better call the pga office ". Even if I saw a violation, I would not think about calling it in for one second. Not my job. That belongs to the people on the course.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: Dillar Dog on April 03, 2017, 01:14:05 pm ---2 penalties, 2 strokes each.

--- End quote ---

I understand that but I'm in the group with JackRabbit Hog, they piled one on top of the other and I don't like that. The PGA is so self-righteous, high and mighty it's sickening to a lot of people.  The deal with Dustin Johnson last year, forcing the players to play in high winds then penalizing them if the ball is moved by the wind after they've grounded their putter (I think they're changing this one) it just goes on and on. 

Dillar Dog:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 02:17:00 pm ---I understand that but I'm in the group with JackRabbit Hog, they piled one on top of the other and I don't like that. The PGA is so self-righteous, high and mighty it's sickening to a lot of people.  The deal with Dustin Johnson last year, forcing the players to play in high winds then penalizing them if the ball is moved by the wind after they've grounded their putter (I think they're changing this one) it just goes on and on. 

--- End quote ---

So you think she should've gotten penalized on a buy one get one free program?

This is not nam, boar, this is golf.  There are rules.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: Dillar Dog on April 03, 2017, 02:32:56 pm ---So you think she should've gotten penalized on a buy one get one free program?

This is not nam, boar, this is golf.  There are rules.

--- End quote ---

LOL!  You're right, however, I do think some of the rules are BS.   Nam?

Dillar Dog:

Yes. Nam.



Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: Dillar Dog on April 03, 2017, 02:51:10 pm ---Yes. Nam.



--- End quote ---

Guess I don't know what that's from so you win. 

They've got Jimmy Walker on the Golf Channel and they asked him about this deal and he said he felt she got a raw deal.  He made a very valid point when he said he doesn't think people should be able to call in and call out fouls on players.  Some players have a lot more cameras on them than others and he's dead right on that. 

EastexHawg:

It's not the viewer's fault that Lexi was careless marking her ball, or marked it a little off to one side to avoid a spike mark. 

As I understand it the reasoning for the two penalties is this.  Let's say Lexi does something to incur a penalty but immediately calls a violation on herself.  In that case she only adds the two shots to her score.  But...if she doesn't call the penalty on herself and therefore signs for a score two shots lower than she should have, the incorrect score penalty is added.

It sucks that it happened to her, but the person who caused Lexi to be penalized is Lexi, not the person who saw it.

hogsanity:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on April 03, 2017, 03:29:51 pm ---It's not the viewer's fault that Lexi was careless marking her ball, or marked it a little off to one side to avoid a spike mark. 

As I understand it the reasoning for the two penalties is this.  Let's say Lexi does something to incur a penalty but immediately calls a violation on herself.  In that case she only adds the two shots to her score.  But...if she doesn't call the penalty on herself and therefore signs for a score two shots lower than she should have, the incorrect score penalty is added.

It sucks that it happened to her, but the person who caused Lexi to be penalized is Lexi, not the person who saw it.

--- End quote ---

So should viewers be allowed to call in to the NFL, or MBL, or A tennis match to report violations, and have those penalties assessed the day after the violation takes place?

I am not saying she did or did not commit an infraction. My beef is with the imposing of the penalty the next day, which then also brings about the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

Dillar Dog:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 03:11:35 pm ---Guess I don't know what that's from so you win. 

They've got Jimmy Walker on the Golf Channel and they asked him about this deal and he said he felt she got a raw deal.  He made a very valid point when he said he doesn't think people should be able to call in and call out fouls on players.  Some players have a lot more cameras on them than others and he's dead right on that. 

--- End quote ---

This isn't a competition. 

It's from the big lebowski.  You should watch it.  It takes a couple of times to really appreciate it so watch it more than once.



EastexHawg:


--- Quote from: hogsanity on April 03, 2017, 04:08:55 pm ---So should viewers be allowed to call in to the NFL, or MBL, or A tennis match to report violations, and have those penalties assessed the day after the violation takes place?

I am not saying she did or did not commit an infraction. My beef is with the imposing of the penalty the next day, which then also brings about the 2 stroke penalty for signing an incorrect scorecard.

--- End quote ---

As I understand it the viewer didn't see the violation until watching his/her DVR recording later that night or the next day.

As you know, golf is different.  Players in those sports don't call penalties on themselves.  In fact, they try to fool the officials into thinking they didn't drop the pass, or short hop the line drive, or flop from little or no contact when they know dang well they did.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: EastexHawg on April 03, 2017, 05:27:21 pm ---As I understand it the viewer didn't see the violation until watching his/her DVR recording later that night or the next day.

--- End quote ---

I don't pay much attention to the LPGA and didn't realize until this afternoon that the violations occurred Saturday and the penalty didn't come until Sunday.  Maybe they need a statute of limitations because that's just seems wrong to me to pop someone a day after the fact.  I wish they'd make the name of the person who called in public. 

pigture perfect:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 06:10:38 pm ---I don't pay much attention to the LPGA and didn't realize until this afternoon that the violations occurred Saturday and the penalty didn't come until Sunday.  Maybe they need a statute of limitations because that's just seems wrong to me to pop someone a day after the fact.  I wish they'd make the name of the person who called in public. 

--- End quote ---
This is my issue as well. Middle of the round on the last day is not fair to the participant for a penalty that happened earlier in the tourney. She could have played holes a little differently had she known at the beginning of the round.

sevenof400:

There is more on this story at: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/randall-mell/replay-rules-under-fire-after-controversial-lexi-ruling/



Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: sevenof400 on April 03, 2017, 07:12:31 pm ---There is more on this story at: http://www.golfchannel.com/news/randall-mell/replay-rules-under-fire-after-controversial-lexi-ruling/

--- End quote ---

Good find


clutch:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 06:10:38 pm ---I don't pay much attention to the LPGA and didn't realize until this afternoon that the violations occurred Saturday and the penalty didn't come until Sunday.  Maybe they need a statute of limitations because that's just seems wrong to me to pop someone a day after the fact.  I wish they'd make the name of the person who called in public. 

--- End quote ---

I agree. If they catch it and call it in before the player finishes the round, fine. It sucks that a viewer can assess a penalty, but golf is different. If they catch in on replay and call it out a day later, that should be too late.

There was a very good point though about it not being fair to all players. Some of them have no shots on TV, so nothing for the viewers to see. It hurts the top players a lot more because they spend more time on camera and have nearly every shot shown.

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: clutch on April 03, 2017, 08:11:16 pm ---I agree. If they catch it and call it in before the player finishes the round, fine. It sucks that a viewer can assess a penalty, but golf is different. If they catch in on replay and call it out a day later, that should be too late.

There was a very good point though about it not being fair to all players. Some of them have no shots on TV, so nothing for the viewers to see. It hurts the top players a lot more because they spend more time on camera and have nearly every shot shown.

--- End quote ---

What happens if they don't get around to viewing it until after the tournament is over?  Take it away from her?  I thought Walker had a great point, you only see just a handful of players on TV.  You see highlights of others if they do something great but you see Tiger spit, DJ scratch his nuts, etc.

ricepig:

https://twitter.com/Hurricane_92/status/848737507080634368

GoHogs1091:

To me, it is okay for someone from the outside contacting the Tournament officials.  To me, it is not okay for someone on the outside contacting a day later.

Since they allow someone contacting the officials the next day, then the incorrect scorecard penalty should not be enforced.  If they want to access the incorrect scorecard penalty, then the outside agency (person) should be notifying the officials the day of the infraction.

She was not given a chance to sign a correct scorecard.

It may get to the point that Tour players (all Tours) should refuse to sign their scorecard until a video montage of all of the player's actions involving shots is viewed by the player a long with a Tournament official.

GolfNut57:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 03:11:35 pm ---Guess I don't know what that's from so you win. 

They've got Jimmy Walker on the Golf Channel and they asked him about this deal and he said he felt she got a raw deal.  He made a very valid point when he said he doesn't think people should be able to call in and call out fouls on players.  Some players have a lot more cameras on them than others and he's dead right on that.

--- End quote ---

That is a very valid point.

clutch:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 03, 2017, 08:31:54 pm ---What happens if they don't get around to viewing it until after the tournament is over?  Take it away from her?  I thought Walker had a great point, you only see just a handful of players on TV.  You see highlights of others if they do something great but you see Tiger spit, DJ scratch his nuts, etc.

--- End quote ---

This week with the Masters will be a great example of that. You will have certain guys in the "feature group" who they follow through the whole round, everyone else you will get to watch for about 4-6 holes if you are following the special broadcasts, maybe none if you are watching the actual TV coverage.

onebadrubi:

In today's world you often only get once chance to get something right.  If you don't get it right then it becomes a larger issue that can escalate.  The LPGA did not think beyond the scope of penalizing her, now they look pretty bad among their peers, their members, and outside people.  Never go full stupid to let it interfere with common sense.  Instead of admitting their wrong doing, they made sure to highlight someone else's (Lexi's). 

hogsanity:


--- Quote from: onebadrubi on April 04, 2017, 12:20:58 pm ---In today's world you often only get once chance to get something right.  If you don't get it right then it becomes a larger issue that can escalate.  The LPGA did not think beyond the scope of penalizing her, now they look pretty bad among their peers, their members, and outside people.  Never go full stupid to let it interfere with common sense.  Instead of admitting their wrong doing, they made sure to highlight someone else's (Lexi's). 

--- End quote ---

I do not think the LPGA did anything wrong, they operated within the rules of golf as set forth. Honestly, under the rules, I am not sure they had much of a choice once made aware of the violation.

What I am sure of is this will be the nail in the coffin of viewers being able to call in and report these things. As rightly pointed out there is much more scrutiny available of the final groups, or the best players than of the group teeing off a dawn.

Jackrabbit Hog:


--- Quote from: hogsanity on April 04, 2017, 01:45:57 pm ---I do not think the LPGA did anything wrong, they operated within the rules of golf as set forth. Honestly, under the rules, I am not sure they had much of a choice once made aware of the violation.

What I am sure of is this will be the nail in the coffin of viewers being able to call in and report these things. As rightly pointed out there is much more scrutiny available of the final groups, or the best players than of the group teeing off a dawn.

--- End quote ---

You're right.  Once the situation came to light, the LPGA had no real alternative.  Let's say they decided to penalize Lexi for the bad mark - 2 strokes by rule - but then elected not to penalize her for the incorrect scorecard because they felt she had been sufficiently penalized already.  That's selective enforcement, and while it may have led to a more equitable result, it would have opened up a whole new can of worms for them; i.e., what rules are okay to enforce and what rules are okay to overlook?  The answer, of course, is none of them should be overlooked. 

It was an incredibly harsh ruling for Lexi, but the LPGA had no choice.  I don't know what the answer is, but there's got to be a better way of doing things.

sevenof400:

In all of this, let's not forget that if Lexi marks her ball correctly, this never becomes an issue.  This is still on her even though seemingly everyone wants to castigate the LPGA. 

Having said that, the USGA and the R&A need to address this issue and now.  As good as they are, the rules of golf were never written with outcomes like this in mind as a result of the advances in technology.  That is one area the golfing bodies have failed to keep pace with in terms of rules because now everyone has visual evidence.  It could be as simple as establishing a deadline after the completion of a round (say within one hour) that any potential rules violations must be reported by then or they will be ignored. 



Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: hogsanity on April 04, 2017, 01:45:57 pm ---I do not think the LPGA did anything wrong, they operated within the rules of golf as set forth. Honestly, under the rules, I am not sure they had much of a choice once made aware of the violation.

--- End quote ---

True but the leaders and certain other players are playing under an entirely different set of rules and that's not fair.  Do you see every single player mark and replace every putt?  No you don't.  I don't think it's fair for some jerk sitting on couch eating Pringles call in a day after and effect the outcome of the match.  The rules were set up so every player plays under the same set of rules and that's not the case any more. 

sevenof400:


--- Quote from: Boarcephus on April 04, 2017, 04:41:27 pm ---True but the leaders and certain other players are playing under an entirely different set of rules and that's not fair.  Do you see every single player mark and replace every putt?  No you don't.  I don't think it's fair for some jerk sitting on couch eating Pringles call in a day after and effect the outcome of the match.  The rules were set up so every player plays under the same set of rules and that's not the case any more.
--- End quote ---

That's true, Boarcephus but that is the flip side of playing for all the money they are these days.  With more dough, comes more scrutiny.  One solution that is possible right now is to have an official with every group.  But even they would not be able to see every move and mark and could miss something. 

Boarcephus:


--- Quote from: sevenof400 on April 04, 2017, 04:47:55 pm ---That's true, Boarcephus but that is the flip side of playing for all the money they are these days.  With more dough, comes more scrutiny.  One solution that is possible right now is to have an official with every group.  But even they would not be able to see every move and mark and could miss something. 

--- End quote ---

I think the answer is very simple, do not allow callers to call in and point out errors if the players, officials and whoever is on the course at the time missed it.  Even collegiate athletics have a replay on the field and the play stands as called after reviewing it at the time it occurs.   I know there are instances where they may go back a little later and say they missed the call but they don't change the outcome of the game.  Lord knows the PGA has the $$$, assign an official with every group but let it go at that but to allow these jerks to call in and effect the outcome is wrong.  Just my $.02

majestic:

Is there any other sport/game where a viewer can call, email, etc. to protest a play? This is dumb as hell.


GolfNut57:


--- Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on April 04, 2017, 03:17:39 pm ---You're right.  Once the situation came to light, the LPGA had no real alternative.  Let's say they decided to penalize Lexi for the bad mark - 2 strokes by rule - but then elected not to penalize her for the incorrect scorecard because they felt she had been sufficiently penalized already.  That's selective enforcement, and while it may have led to a more equitable result, it would have opened up a whole new can of worms for them; i.e., what rules are okay to enforce and what rules are okay to overlook?  The answer, of course, is none of them should be overlooked. 

It was an incredibly harsh ruling for Lexi, but the LPGA had no choice. I don't know what the answer is, but there's got to be a better way of doing things.

--- End quote ---

They can always pass an rule that says that a player can not be penalized for signing an incorrect scorecard if the penalty stroke(s) is assessed after that days play and the scorecard has been signed and turned in. The scorecard rules really suck. If you sign for a score lower than you shot they penalize you. But if you sign for a score higher than you actually shot the score becomes official because they want to say you should have been aware  of your actual score. So in effect the ruling bodies can change your score to a higher one after the fact with a penalty but then refuse to lower it after the fact when a higher number is incorrectly scored on a hole. That is a two way street named Bullchit Avenue!

Jackrabbit Hog:


--- Quote from: GolfNut57 on April 04, 2017, 05:22:19 pm ---They can always pass an rule that says that a player can not be penalized for signing an incorrect scorecard if the penalty stroke(s) is assessed after that days play. The scorecard rules really suck. If you sign for a score lower than you shot they penalize you. But if you sign for a score higher than you actually shot the score becomes official because they want to say you should have been aware  of your actual score. So in effect the ruling bodies can change your score to a higher one after the fact with a penalty but then refuse to lower it after the fact when a higher number is incorrectly scored on a hole. That is a two way street named Bullchit Avenue!

--- End quote ---

And don't forget, on the PGA Tour (and I assume most other tours), you don't even keep your own card.  You keep your playing partner's card and then check and sign yours after the round.  So while you do have the responsibility of verifying its accuracy, it's not even information you recorded yourself.

Just ask Roberto de Vincenzo how that worked out for him.  "What a stupid I am.."

ricepig:


--- Quote from: Jackrabbit Hog on April 04, 2017, 05:25:50 pm ---And don't forget, on the PGA Tour (and I assume most other tours), you don't even keep your own card.  You keep your playing partner's card and then check and sign yours after the round.  So while you do have the responsibility of verifying its accuracy, it's not even information you recorded yourself.

Just ask Roberto de Vincenzo how that worked out for him.  "What a stupid I am.."

--- End quote ---

Perfect week to bring up ole Roberto.

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