Flangrantgate (sic)

[RzRbAcK18]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but has there been any discussion of why the flagrant foul wasn't called in the KY vs WI game? It seems to me the rule is pretty cut and dry about contact above the shoulders. I am curious if the NCAA has issued a statement in regards to the refs desicion. Or is it that since WI won the game it is no longer relevant?

[rude1]

I don't think the rule applied here and was called correctly. Everyone focuses on the contact above the shoulder, but the rule focuses on contact with the elbow above the shoulder, it wasn't that. So next then is was it excessive contact? I don't see how hand fighting that results in contact with the hand in the neck/face area is excessive. The player hit actex liked there was a sniper in the building but it wasn't that hard of contact.

The rule states: A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

    Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball; and
    Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively.

[hawg IQ]

The TV guys said no question about slap to face and that the rules afforded two applications on how to proceed. One was a two shot technical with no ejection and other one was with an ejection. They also commented the first rule should have been applied and seemed shocked nothing was called.

[rude1]

The TV guys said no question about slap to face and that the rules afforded two applications on how to proceed. One was a two shot technical with no ejection and other one was with an ejection. They also commented the first rule should have been applied and seemed shocked nothing was called.

They were wrong, I posted the rule. They were giving their opinion nothing more.

[NLRHog92]

I don't think the rule applied here and was called correctly. Everyone focuses on the contact above the shoulder, but the rule focuses on contact with the elbow above the shoulder, it wasn't that. So next then is was it excessive contact? I don't see how hand fighting that results in contact with the hand in the neck/face area is excessive. The player hit actex liked there was a sniper in the building but it wasn't that hard of contact.

The rule states: A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

    Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball; and
    Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively.

Did you not watch the same game? He blatantly and unnecessarily slapped him away from the ball. The ball was almost out of bounds and they were almost at the elbow. It was frustration and literally hit him in the face. Should have been a 1. Reason it wasn't was because it was UK and Final Four.

[rude1]

Did you not watch the same game? He blatantly and unnecessarily slapped him away from the ball. The ball was almost out of bounds and they were almost at the elbow. It was frustration and literally hit him in the face. Should have been a 1. Reason it wasn't was because it was UK and Final Four.

Don't agree, he swung his hand and made little contact, player hit did a lot of acting on the contact.

[hawgfan4life]

Looked like he was attempting a swim move and got head instead of upper body. 

[HF#1]

Don't agree, he swung his hand and made little contact, player hit did a lot of acting on the contact.

You could see the guys face move as the hand made contact.  He got slapped.  It was by every and any definition a flagrant one. 

[(notOM)Rebel123]

I don't think the rule applied here and was called correctly. Everyone focuses on the contact above the shoulder, but the rule focuses on contact with the elbow above the shoulder, it wasn't that. So next then is was it excessive contact? I don't see how hand fighting that results in contact with the hand in the neck/face area is excessive. The player hit actex liked there was a sniper in the building but it wasn't that hard of contact.

The rule states: A flagrant 1 personal foul shall be a personal foul that is deemed excessive in nature and/or unnecessary, but not based solely on the severity of the act. Examples include, but are not limited to:

    Causing excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball; and
    Illegal contact with an elbow that occurs above the shoulders of an opponent when the elbows are not swung excessively.

"Deemed excessive and/or unnecessary.........But are not limited to:"
It was unnecessary and it doesn't have to involve an elbow.

[Sharky]

Sorry if this has already been discussed but has there been any discussion of why the flagrant foul wasn't called in the KY vs WI game? It seems to me the rule is pretty cut and dry about contact above the shoulders. I am curious if the NCAA has issued a statement in regards to the refs desicion. Or is it that since WI won the game it is no longer relevant?

I agree, it was an obvious no call. And then the refs gave it back to WI on the shot clock violation. And then then KY got away with a charge, and the refs called a charge on WI that wasn't.

I think the no call made WI mad. They shut down KY from that point on.

[latrops]

"Deemed excessive and/or unnecessary.........But are not limited to:"
It was unnecessary and it doesn't have to involve an elbow.

I agree.  The reason the announcers, Twitter, and every message board and sports blog responded with shock and outrage at the no call is because every time we see a player get hit in the face, even accidentally, it results in a flagrant 1 being called.  Before last night, the elbow only distinction was not consistently applied.

[NLRHog92]

Don't agree, he swung his hand and made little contact, player hit did a lot of acting on the contact.

Again, were you watching the same game? That was not accidental.

[rude1]

You could see the guys face move as the hand made contact.  He got slapped.  It was by every and any definition a flagrant one. 

I saw what the officials saw obviously, some hand fighting where a players hands got up high and hit another player lightly in the face with the player getting hit doing some acting to draw attention. No flagrant, play ball.....

[rude1]

"Deemed excessive and/or unnecessary.........But are not limited to:"
It was unnecessary and it doesn't have to involve an elbow.

Officials didn't see it as excessive, I agree with them.

[(notOM)Rebel123]

Officials didn't see it as excessive, I agree with them.

True, but it doesn't have to be excessive. According to the rule, they can call it if they deem it "unnecessary". But they didn't see it that way.

[rude1]

True, but it doesn't have to be excessive. According to the rule, they can call it if they deem it "unnecessary". But they didn't see it that way.

Neither did I.

[Biggus Piggus]

I am glad they did not call the obvious foul, because Wisconsin got riled at being screwed over and took over the basketball game. Yay for poor officiating!

[(notOM)Rebel123]

I am glad they did not call the obvious foul, because Wisconsin got riled at being screwed over and took over the basketball game. Yay for poor officiating!

Ha! Good point.

[NLRHog92]

I saw what the officials saw obviously, some hand fighting where a players hands got up high and hit another player lightly in the face with the player getting hit doing some acting to draw attention. No flagrant, play ball.....

There was not hand fighting. The UW player was next to him, he pivoted and slapped him. Nothing there from the UW player to provoke it other than them threatening (and subsequently ruining) UK's perfect season, so being a young, immature player was frustrated and straight up slapped him. Please look at the replay.

[intelligence]

The Kittens got robbed by the Refs. that putback by Dekker the shotclock had clearly expired and the shot before it was an airball. if the refs call that play right, UK probably hangs on to win

[mjsphd]

I mistakenly taped the "Kentucky stream" of the game since I was going to be out until way after it started.  The Kentucky guys were unabashed homers, but they both were sure it was going to be called a flagrant foul.  They were concerned it might be a flagrant 2.

[lefty08]

It was obvious to me the UK player was frustrated with the tight defense and reacted to it. If a clear out elbow that Accidentally makes contact can get you a 2 shot foul plus ball I have no idea how that was not called. Then again we all know why it wasn't called

[earshot]

I mistakenly taped the "Kentucky stream" of the game since I was going to be out until way after it started.  The Kentucky guys were unabashed homers

I did the same thing and it made it almost impossible to watch.

[acey33]

Kentucky had been getting away with that kind of play ALL year.

[NorthDallas40]

I guarantee I know what happened. We had some friends over who were only watching the game half paying attention. When they saw the replay, they initially thought that there was no flagrant file because both players were simply going for the ball. From one of the three angles it really appear to look that way. But from the other two angles the ball was clearly out of bounds at the time that he slapped him in the face! I guarantee that the refs or looked at that first angle. And then ignore the other two were simply didn't look at the other two.

[theFlyingHog]

I saw what the officials saw obviously, some hand fighting where a players hands got up high and hit another player lightly in the face with the player getting hit doing some acting to draw attention. No flagrant, play ball.....

What were you doing on the court?

[RzRbAcK18]

I believe without a doubt it was not intentional but through out the season I have seen it called when a player accidentally hits an opposing player in the face. If anything I believe they can call a regular foul can' they? Correct me if I am wrong on that.

[Cinco de Hogo]

All I care to know about the situation is that there is about a 99% chance Arkansas would have been severely punished for such an act.  So, that being the case and in the name of fairness and sportsmanship it should have been at least a Flag 1.

[rude1]

I believe without a doubt it was not intentional but through out the season I have seen it called when a player accidentally hits an opposing player in the face. If anything I believe they can call a regular foul can' they? Correct me if I am wrong on that.

No they can't use the monitor to call a regular foul, which IMO is what that was. What's amazing is how people say they didn't call it flagrant because it was Ky, yet they turned around around and allowed a basket after the shot clock expired to count for Wi. lol, great job of protecting Ky wasn't it?

[hawginbigd1]

I thought it was merely incidental contact, and that is why they let it go, and the Wisconsin player acted like Joe Frazier had just landed a haymaker. The one the officiating crew needs to answer is how do you miss a shot clock violation, when a team inbounds the ball with 3 seconds left on the clock.

[TrueBlue]

No they can't use the monitor to call a regular foul, which IMO is what that was. What's amazing is how people say they didn't call it flagrant because it was Ky, yet they turned around around and allowed a basket after the shot clock expired to count for Wi. lol, great job of protecting Ky wasn't it?

Too bad you and Ashley Judd's team lost, huh? Maybe next year...

[20gauge]

Well I think MOST people thought it was flagrant. it was definetly contact above the shoulder. Thats probably 4 points for WI with the freethrows and possession. As for the shot clock violation no one can deny it was. But not calling it was probably making up for the no call on the flagrant and that crappy charge call Towns got while he was still moving. They evened that out as well. At the end of it all it was still a tie ballgame and pretty much no calls for either team the rest of the way after that. WI didnt let them off the hook like other teams did through the regular season.

[Hogs-n-Roses]

It was a horribly officiated game with KY benefitting most of the time. Prolly feared for their lives as rocco held them to the agreement they took money for. Clearly a flagrant 2 fowl and to not call atleast a flagrant 1 should result in termination. Paint it however you wish but I watched it over n over like the rest of the country. Lyles has a bad attitude like the rest of those Blue punks, when they get contested they turn into Bo Wallace.Towns shoulders every play,foul. The twins shove illegally with their arms every time down the court. All players on that team arm hack on every shot. Its amazint the number of no calls related to KY baxetball.

[Sow Lancelot]

Looked like he was attempting a swim move and got head instead of upper body. 

Didn't look like any swim move I ever used or taught. Just sayin'

[hawgfan4life]

Didn't look like any swim move I ever used or taught. Just sayin'

You clearly don't understand swim move technique and have failed to coach a very effective move to get past a player.  Works good in football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc...

Simple move.  Take off hand and swing across your body and push on opponent while simultaneously taking near hand and punching across the push arm and use it as leverage to pull yourself past the opponent.

Just saying....

[Biggus Piggus]

Wondering why a swim move would be allowed in basketball, period.

[Biggus Piggus]

https://vine.co/v/OlIrJUbed3z

[Sow Lancelot]

You clearly don't understand swim move technique and have failed to coach a very effective move to get past a player.  Works good in football, basketball, hockey, soccer, etc...

Simple move.  Take off hand and swing across your body and push on opponent while simultaneously taking near hand and punching across the push arm and use it as leverage to pull yourself past the opponent.

Just saying....

Interesting that your description included no mention of using your opponent's jaw for leverage. At least that's not the way we taught our posts to make the move.

Never saw anybody swim by reaching across the body with the opposite hand at ear level.

Just sayin'.

Yep, just went and watched it again.  Ain't never seen anybody swim like that.

[Hogs-n-Roses]

https://vine.co/v/OlIrJUbed3z

Thanks BP. That is no swim move. Its the same type of aggressive n unnessary play KY uses all the time. Their bigs Towns especially lurch or jump into their first step illegally every time and the refs everywhere allow it. It is a fowl. Either call it or change the rules.