Stadium Expansion A Good Idea? Why was there an 8-2 Vote?

[bphi11ips]

Nothing like money burning in your pocket.

The deal is done.  It will help recruiting and look great on television.  If you don't like it, buy some good seats in the lower bowl and laugh at the knucklehads paying $2500 a year to sit in the end zone.

[PonderinHog]

Nothing like money burning in your pocket.

The deal is done.  It will help recruiting and look great on television.  If you don't like it, buy some good seats in the lower bowl and laugh at the knucklehads paying $2500 a year to sit in the end zone.

Oh snap!   

[Justifiable Hogicide]

Do you has a Hog license plate, if so, you've donated for academics, lol.

Now you've done it. David Pryor will be outraged UA Monticello is not getting a cut of that.

[ImHogginIt]

No, he made very good points. This is a large chunk of money that really doesn't provide anything for the regular fan or student, at a time when funding to institutions like UAMS is being squeezed. It's a tough time to be throwing that kind of money around.

At what point will morons get in their thick skulls that tax revenue is not being used ? It is paid for by athletic revenue that comes from tickets sold, Razorback Foundation revenue, tv money, ect...  NOT TAX REVENUE !!!

[ricepig]

Now you've done it. David Pryor will be outraged UA Monticello is not getting a cut of that.

Well, we don't get a cut of the 561 license plates UAM has sold! Of course, our 34,421 is a bit more.....

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

At what point will morons get in their thick skulls that tax revenue is not being used ? It is paid for ny athletic revenue that comes from tickets sold, Razorback Foundation revenue, tv money, ect...  NOT TAX REVENUE !!!

It's like arguing with flat earthers.

[Russ22]

To a modern AD, the perfect football stadium would be a completely smooth cylinder several stories high containing nothing but luxury boxes surrounding a football field.  The only reason the bleachers exist is because they're structurally necessary to hold up the boxes.  It's not just Arkansas; it's the same everywhere.

It's just another step in the progression of making the college football experience for the upper-middle-class and above.  The rest of the plebs can watch at home.

To be honest, college athletics began as contests between the elite - Harvard vs Yale in a regatta. It has always been about the elite (those with actual ties to the schools involved). Much of the pageantry associated with college football have nothing at all to do with people with no real ties to a school - except the fact that they live in the same state that houses the university.

I understand being upset by the big dollars for a stadium that has a sellout or two every 5 years. However, the people paying for the upgrade are going to be those that end up in the suites - not in the lower club or upper deck. My guess is that Long demonstrated demand for the most profitable thing in the stadium and sold that to 80% of the board.

[ImHogginIt]

637 seats Guv, don't guess on stuff above your pay grade.

He's been on disability for years. My guess is a mental disability. I'm kidding Guv I'm kidding 

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

Nothing like money burning in your pocket.

The deal is done.  It will help recruiting and look great on television.  If you don't like it, buy some good seats in the lower bowl and laugh at the knucklehads paying $2500 a year to sit in the end zone.

I'm betting they will be able to buy over priced beer and wine as well. 

[rljjr]

If nothing else the stadium will look better, keep sound in a little better, and the Broyles Center will get the much needed renovation it has needed for years.

[ATU HOG]

Being a national championship contender every year is a high lofty goal that the Hogs are very unlikely to reach. Being a national title contender every 3 or 4 years is certainly possible though as is regularly contending for SEC titles.

I don't think it's a lofty goal.  We are lowering our expectations.  I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I expect every single game the Razorbacks take the field, that we should win.  Be in that 9-11 range every single year, you put yourselves in a position to make a run.  Now obviously if we are 9-3 going into a bowl game, clearly that's not going to get you into the playoff, but if we are sitting 9-1, 8-1, 10-1, 8-0, etc. during the season, we are placing ourselves in Playoff talk and you never know what may happen

I expect us to win.  Are we going to win every game... no we are not, but I'm still going to set the bar high for the hogs every year.

[ATU HOG]

That's a pipe dream. Never happen.

Why is it a pipe dream?  I'm not saying we are going to win it every year... just be in contention.  Be in the talk.  Give ourselves a chance.

[Sivad]

At what point will morons get in their thick skulls that tax revenue is not being used ? It is paid for ny athletic revenue that comes from tickets sold, Razorback Foundation revenue, tv money, ect...  NOT TAX REVENUE !!!

And that it is not taking a single penny away from academia in Fayetteville or even Monticello.

[ricepig]

And that it is not taking a single penny away from academia in Fayetteville or even Monticello.

I think they only had one Bunsen burner for 26,000 students this year.......

[Inhogswetrust]

Up to a certain point I wouldn't argue with these realties. However, one point many are missing is the fact that IF these monies were to allocated to other (nonathletic) purposes the funds would likely still be raised via the original bond issue.

Having participated in other nonathletic bond issues from the U of A  I can assure you the demand has been there and the monies obtained through the offerings. I have a very strong suspicion that with the lack of good quality yield opportunities in the financial markets today-with the additional nontaxable status of the interest paid to bond holders-the demand would still be very strong.

You realize I wasn't talking about bond holders don't you.

[HogtoberFest]

I'm not sure I'm understanding the argument about spending this on an academic issue.

1) Was there an alternate proposal by the school that had to be turned down to proceed with this project?  Does this project make other projects not possible?

2) As of about a month ago, the waiting list for suites at RRS was 98 deep.  There are plenty of people in our state wanting to spend their money watching the Razorbacks from luxury seating.  I agree that we should find a way to make that happen.  With current suite prices at 27k per season and donation on top of that, we should be able to pay this back quickly.  I'm not sure how this would take away from the university.

3) This project isn't just about adding seats.  That is actually the smallest part.  They are completely redoing the FBC, which houses the Gameday Locker rooms and coaches offices, which were near last place in the SEC.  We are renovating the concourses and concession through out the stadium.  And since we are doing all of this and the long term plan was to bowl in the stadium. It only makes sense to do all of together.  This is why it makes very little sense to price it out per seat.  Additional seating is not the main focus of the project. 

4) Assuming the NEZ club seats are the same price as SEZ, that's approximately $140 per seat for each game.  This means you would have to fit around twice as many bench seats in the same area to get the same ROI.  Then you have those people complaining that they are being packed into crappy, old fashioned bench seats and being overcharged. 

All that being said, people just want to complain and argue.

[ricepig]

1) Nope, there wasn't, I guess if we had some other major building project to come up, there might possibly be a credit rating concern, or that was Pryor's thinking.
2) Yep
3) Football coach's offices are in the Smith Center. AD and other athletic dept administration is in the BAC
4) Correct again.

[HogCzar1]

No, he made very good points. This is a large chunk of money that really doesn't provide anything for the regular fan or student, at a time when funding to institutions like UAMS is being squeezed. It's a tough time to be throwing that kind of money around.

The question is where the money is coming from. It is not coming from the state. It is not being diverted from other programs at UA, and it is not being diverted away from healthcare.

It is the responsibility of the athletic department to raise as much revenue as possible. Otherwise, how do you expect to compete with the SEC?

If you can get a corporate sponsor to write you a check for stadium seat 10 times more than you got for it last year, then why would you turn that down?

It is my opinion that Sen. Pryor's response was purely political in an effort to maintain the perception that he wants the people of the state to have of him.
That is against the corporate interests and big money. All going back to his political career. As Mike Irwin pointed out, some of his reasoning was at the very least flawed.

The UA is fortunate that they had 8 people with enough business savvy to recognize that in order to compete at the highest level, this gives us the best opportunity to do so.

[razorback44]

Feasibility study would come first, as with any large-scope project. I doubt demolition of current infrastructure would have to be done, but its anyone's guess until the athletic department explores the idea.

Jeff Long is going to be asked questions about this specific idea (removing bleachers, adding chairbacks) tomorrow at 7:20AM on 92.1 the Ticket.

I highly doubt that Josh Bertaccini is going to rattle Long with the questions that he's already been asked and answered before. For Josh's sake though, I hope he isn't dumb enough to actually believe the propaganda thrown out by Pryor. That's bound to make him look even worse.

[opineonswine]

Waste of money at this point and time considering we never fill the stadium as is.

Perfect example of those that don't get it.

[razoredge178]

I highly doubt that Josh Bertaccini is going to rattle Long with the questions that he's already been asked and answered before. For Josh's sake though, I hope he isn't dumb enough to actually believe the propaganda thrown out by Pryor. That's bound to make him look even worse.

I thought he asked some decent questions-- the biggest one answered by Jeff Long that negated some of the yahoos on this site....when asked about replacing bleachers with chair back seats he cited a reduction in overall seating capacity as the issue, whereas some of the hogville engineers said it wasn't even possible due to the size of a seat vs. the room available. Jeff sounded like he wouldn't want to reduce capacity 10-15K just to add chair backs, although I'd still like to see a long term revenue plan that would show whether or not an additional 30K chair back seats at lets say $75/per game would mitigate an overall reduction of existing bleacher seats at $55/60 per seat.

[opineonswine]

Big difference is that most of the other SEC programs added substantial seating, general admin and higher $$ as well.

I think the rub for some folks is this $160M, 3000 seat expansion (almost $55 grand on a per seat basis) is 100% targeted at that 2-5% of high-end supporters and donors. You still have 50-60K crap bleacher seats that have to be addressed.

As said in another thread, just like our political system, we can't expect our top 2-5% of rich fans and donors to carry the load through the next 20+ years, just like we can't put all the tax burden on the super rich in our country. In fact, that's the huge problem, and far from the solution.

You d%$! well better figure out how improve those other 50K seats-- those are the folks that'll truly be the foundation of our program 20 years from now...and will be the big donors 20 years from now too!

It's a simple matter of supply and demand.  There is extensive demand for high dollar seats.  There is no extra demand for cheap seats.  It's really that simple.  Arkansas never expects to have the largest stadium.  We don't have the fans to fill it.  We just want to have the nicest, coolest stadium and fill the big demand for suites and club seats.  It's not that hard to understand.

[idochog]

David Pryor says he is worried about UA Monticello not getting their fair share of the income produced by the expansion.
I'm worried about David Pryor's mental health.

David Pryor is a democrat, he believes in REDISTRIBUTION of wealth

[Sivad]

Perfect example of those that don't get it.

No kidding. They don't even get close to it.
Once again, for the reading, audio and visually impaired - it's not about increasing the number of seats.

[WilsonHog]

It's a simple matter of supply and demand.  There is extensive demand for high dollar seats.  There is no extra demand for cheap seats.  It's really that simple.  Arkansas never expects to have the largest stadium.  We don't have the fans to fill it.  We just want to have the nicest, coolest stadium and fill the big demand for suites and club seats.  It's not that hard to understand.

Simplest and best explanation I've read yet.

[26.2Hog]

These naysayers would probably criticize you if you spent your money and obtained a loan to renovate your house, because they somehow think it would cost them money and prevent them from doing the same thing.

Talk about tortured logic.

[ricepig]

I thought he asked some decent questions-- the biggest one answered by Jeff Long that negated some of the yahoos on this site....when asked about replacing bleachers with chair back seats he cited a reduction in overall seating capacity as the issue, whereas some of the hogville engineers said it wasn't even possible due to the size of a seat vs. the room available. Jeff sounded like he wouldn't want to reduce capacity 10-15K just to add chair backs, although I'd still like to see a long term revenue plan that would show whether or not an additional 30K chair back seats at lets say $75/per game would mitigate an overall reduction of existing bleacher seats at $55/60 per seat.

Plus it would be cost prohibitive in our current row width spacing.   

[Fatty McGee]

At what point will morons get in their thick skulls that tax revenue is not being used ? It is paid for by athletic revenue that comes from tickets sold, Razorback Foundation revenue, tv money, ect...  NOT TAX REVENUE !!!

There is some tax revenue being "used", in that no property taxes are being collected on this improvement, or the stadium itself.

[ricepig]

There is some tax revenue being "used", in that no property taxes are being collected on this improvement, or the stadium itself.

Same as every building on campus, your point?

[Inhogswetrust]

Same as every building on campus, your point?

Always been that way.

[ImHogginIt]

It's a simple matter of supply and demand.  There is extensive demand for high dollar seats.  There is no extra demand for cheap seats.  It's really that simple.  Arkansas never expects to have the largest stadium.  We don't have the fans to fill it.  We just want to have the nicest, coolest stadium and fill the big demand for suites and club seats.  It's not that hard to understand.

We could quote this explanation every single day yet some will refuse to believe it.  Same way they refuse to believe that tax dollars will not fund this project or any aspect of Razorback athletics. Their minds are closed to the facts.

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

.....Their minds are closed to the facts.

Of many things well beyond the stadium expansion.

[Redhogs]

Now you've done it. David Pryor will be outraged UA Monticello is not getting a cut of that.

He knows it spells the end of games at WMS plain and simple....and it's about time.

[GuvHog]

He knows it spells the end of games at WMS plain and simple....and it's about time.

Yep, It's about time.

[Hook 'em Hogs]

I'm probably overthinking this a bit, but the suites are a great business move.  Obviously they create ridiculous revenue, but they do something else-they get casual fans or people that aren't from around here into the stadium. 

Let me give you my brief story.  Born and raised in Texas.  Grew up cheering Texas Tech and UT.  Moved to Arkansas in '02.  Someone invited me to a game in '05 and I went.  The next two years, even though UT won a Natty in '06 saw me and my wife "convert" to being Hog Fans.  Man, if I had the money, I would buy the best season pass available!  I love going to hog games, have been given some tickets, bought some tickets and go every time I get a chance.  It only happened because someone invited me to a game and I had an incredible experience.  Arkansas has a committed Hog Fan who sacrifices to go to games when he can.  I'm not the ideal client as I don't have a lot of income to spend on tickets, but I'm here because of a stadium experience.  Since '02, I have probably generated $200 a year towards tickets, attire, etc.  That's $3k more than they would have had had I never attended a game.  Chump change, but you get my point. 

These companies that have these suites that bring employees that are new to the area or business contacts that are new to the area are only going to show off what a beautiful stadium we have, what awesome traditions we have and SOME will get hooked.  Chances are if they're up in a suite, they have more money for tickets than I do.  A suite is paid advertising in reverse.  Someone is paying you to advertise your product to people that otherwise might not ever see the best version of your product.  So, between the yearly income a suite produces and the reverse paid advertising, this just seems like a home run.  The Athletic Department is paying for it, and there really isn't much of a downside to it.  Prices are going up because that's what prices do.  For everyone that's "priced out", there's an alumni or a guy that watched a game in the suite that can and will fill that spot.  The fact that we don't sell out every game really doesn't matter. 

If you can increase revenue, you increase revenue.  You're a business, that's what you do.   

[NaturalStateReb]

It's a simple matter of supply and demand.  There is extensive demand for high dollar seats.  There is no extra demand for cheap seats.  It's really that simple.  Arkansas never expects to have the largest stadium.  We don't have the fans to fill it.  We just want to have the nicest, coolest stadium and fill the big demand for suites and club seats.  It's not that hard to understand.

It's not quite that simple.  There isn't sufficient demand for "cheap" seats at the university's artificially inflated price point.  We're not talking about a completely free market at play here.  We're really talking about a monopoly that sets pricing. 

[NaturalStateReb]

We could quote this explanation every single day yet some will refuse to believe it.  Same way they refuse to believe that tax dollars will not fund this project or any aspect of Razorback athletics. Their minds are closed to the facts.

To say that something that's inherently supported by a public university doesn't derive at least some level of taxpayer benefit is naive.  The program wouldn't exist without the taxpayer-supported institution.  Levels of support may vary greatly, and it may be cash-flow netural, but it's not the same as saying that taxpayers don't make the program possible.

[NaturalStateReb]

Same as every building on campus, your point?

Probably that's it's part of a taxpayer supported public institution.  Other than that tidbit, I guess not.

[ricepig]

It's not quite that simple.  There isn't sufficient demand for "cheap" seats at the university's artificially inflated price point.  We're not talking about a completely free market at play here.  We're really talking about a monopoly that sets pricing. 

You can go on various ticket sites and get La Tech tickets for $8, I don't want to hear about price point.

[NaturalStateReb]

You can go on various ticket sites and get La Tech tickets for $8, I don't want to hear about price point.

Rather proves my point, doesn't it?  The market says a ticket for that game is $8, but the university says, "no, it's really worth $85." 

It's not a mystery about why it doesn't sell.  The ticket isn't worth it's artificially-inflated price.

[Russ22]

Rather proves my point, doesn't it?  The market says a ticket for that game is $8, but the university says, "no, it's really worth $85." 

It's not a mystery about why it doesn't sell.  The ticket isn't worth it's artificially-inflated price.

Dude, someone paid $85 for it. Now, they are trying to get something back because they aren't going to use it for some reason.

[ricepig]

Rather proves my point, doesn't it?  The market says a ticket for that game is $8, but the university says, "no, it's really worth $85." 

It's not a mystery about why it doesn't sell.  The ticket isn't worth it's artificially-inflated price.

That's upper deck, they aren't $85, and neither were lower level in season ticket packages.

Oh, there are some Bama tickets for $512, is that their price point?

[NaturalStateReb]

That's upper deck, they aren't $85, and neither were lower level in season ticket packages.

Oh, there are some Bama tickets for $512, is that their price point?

Yes, if someone is willing to pay it.

[ImHogginIt]

To say that something that's inherently supported by a public university doesn't derive at least some level of taxpayer benefit is naive.  The program wouldn't exist without the taxpayer-supported institution.  Levels of support may vary greatly, and it may be cash-flow netural, but it's not the same as saying that taxpayers don't make the program possible.

Duh ! And if my business uses a public street or highway to ship its goods/services then taxpayers helped make my business possible.

Tax revenue is not used to fund Razorback athletics nor will it be used for this project. Open up the books of Razorback athletics and show us where tax revenue is used ? Go ahead.

Also does anyone have any figures on how much tax revenue the state and local governments make on football weekends when folks like me come to town and spend two nights at overpriced and heavily taxed hotels and eat at the various restaurants ? I bet Razorback football, basketball and baseball have been great for the tax coffers over the years

[Dwight_K_Shrute]

I'm probably overthinking this a bit, but the suites are a great business move.  Obviously they create ridiculous revenue, but they do something else-they get casual fans or people that aren't from around here into the stadium. 

Let me give you my brief story.  Born and raised in Texas.  Grew up cheering Texas Tech and UT.  Moved to Arkansas in '02.  Someone invited me to a game in '05 and I went.  The next two years, even though UT won a Natty in '06 saw me and my wife "convert" to being Hog Fans.  Man, if I had the money, I would buy the best season pass available!  I love going to hog games, have been given some tickets, bought some tickets and go every time I get a chance.  It only happened because someone invited me to a game and I had an incredible experience.  Arkansas has a committed Hog Fan who sacrifices to go to games when he can.  I'm not the ideal client as I don't have a lot of income to spend on tickets, but I'm here because of a stadium experience.  Since '02, I have probably generated $200 a year towards tickets, attire, etc.  That's $3k more than they would have had had I never attended a game.  Chump change, but you get my point. 

These companies that have these suites that bring employees that are new to the area or business contacts that are new to the area are only going to show off what a beautiful stadium we have, what awesome traditions we have and SOME will get hooked.  Chances are if they're up in a suite, they have more money for tickets than I do.  A suite is paid advertising in reverse.  Someone is paying you to advertise your product to people that otherwise might not ever see the best version of your product.  So, between the yearly income a suite produces and the reverse paid advertising, this just seems like a home run.  The Athletic Department is paying for it, and there really isn't much of a downside to it.  Prices are going up because that's what prices do.  For everyone that's "priced out", there's an alumni or a guy that watched a game in the suite that can and will fill that spot.  The fact that we don't sell out every game really doesn't matter. 

If you can increase revenue, you increase revenue.  You're a business, that's what you do.   

Thanks for sharing your story.  Your points are valid, and well stated.  Although they will float over some heads like beautiful cumulus nimbus clouds. 

[ricepig]

Thanks for sharing your story.  Your points are valid, and well stated.  Although they will float over some heads like beautiful cumulus nimbus clouds. 

Look........squirrel!

[LA Football fan]

My view is make the expansion happen and maximize the revenue the suites will generate.  Drop upper deck prices to a price point that gets them to sell out, same for bud Walton arena.  You have addressed the waiting list for the big donors and you have made upper deck prices affordable enough that the average hog fan can not only afford them but also have enough left over to pay for the rest of the expenses involved in travelling to a hog game. 

An empty unsold upper deck seat is useless and dropping the price point to get them full or make sure each one is sold would be maximizing the cash flow as much as building the suites.   Maybe slash the prices 1-2 days before the game if any are unsold and see what happens.   Even though the seats are sold for less, you are still getting a fan in them that will buy concessions and possibly hog apparel not to mention paying for parking.  Some money coming in is always better than none coming in.

[Atlhogfan1]

My view is make the expansion happen and maximize the revenue the suites will generate.  Drop upper deck prices to a price point that gets them to sell out, same for bud Walton arena.  You have addressed the waiting list for the big donors and you have made upper deck prices affordable enough that the average hog fan can not only afford them but also have enough left over to pay for the rest of the expenses involved in travelling to a hog game. 

An empty unsold upper deck seat is useless and dropping the price point to get them full or make sure each one is sold would be maximizing the cash flow as much as building the suites.   Maybe slash the prices 1-2 days before the game if any are unsold and see what happens.   Even though the seats are sold for less, you are still getting a fan in them that will buy concessions and possibly hog apparel not to mention paying for parking.  Some money coming in is always better than none coming in.

Go to dynamic pricing.  Some sports franchises have followed the airlines in doing so. 

[Inhogswetrust]

Rather proves my point, doesn't it?  The market says a ticket for that game is $8, but the university says, "no, it's really worth $85." 

It's not a mystery about why it doesn't sell.  The ticket isn't worth it's artificially-inflated price.

Which is true of a lot of events and that's why ticket sites are pure speculative for the most part.

[k.c.hawg]

My view is make the expansion happen and maximize the revenue the suites will generate.  Drop upper deck prices to a price point that gets them to sell out, same for bud Walton arena.  You have addressed the waiting list for the big donors and you have made upper deck prices affordable enough that the average hog fan can not only afford them but also have enough left over to pay for the rest of the expenses involved in travelling to a hog game. 

An empty unsold upper deck seat is useless and dropping the price point to get them full or make sure each one is sold would be maximizing the cash flow as much as building the suites.   Maybe slash the prices 1-2 days before the game if any are unsold and see what happens.   Even though the seats are sold for less, you are still getting a fan in them that will buy concessions and possibly hog apparel not to mention paying for parking.  Some money coming in is always better than none coming in.

You can't really do that without undermining season ticket holders. You can do dynamic pricing but that usually has a baseline that is no lower than what a season ticket holder pays, then tickets go up in price as demand increases. The Chiefs don't do dynamic pricing but my season tickets cost me $26 less per ticket than a single game purchaser can buy them for through the Chiefs. But many NFL teams are playing the Stub Hub market behind the scene posting a small percentage of tickets on the NFL resale site as demand starts going up.

A season ticket does not mind when someone buys an $8 ticket on Stub Hub because a season ticket holder dumped them at a loss but they will begin to feel unappreciated if the U of A sells tickets to people that hold out for a cheap ticket at 30% of the price a season ticket holder pays. That is the reason why colleges and pro teams let seats sit empty.......season ticket holders are the lifeblood.