Beholder

[HogFanInBryant]

What happened to the super horse Texas Red?

Didn't fire for whatever reason...still a nice horse!

[mckinneyhog5]

Didn't fire for whatever reason...still a nice horse!

The reason he didn't fire was because he was outclassed.

[jdelo77]

He looked tired to me , frosted softened him up a bit ...

[HogFanInBryant]

The reason he didn't fire was because he was outclassed.

You are very wrong. 

[HogFanInBryant]

He looked tired to me , frosted softened him up a bit ...

I just think some horses like Saratoga, and some don't.  When you add that with a taxing 3 year old season, plus multiple cross country travel...this is what can happen to any horse no matter how great they are.

[HogFanInBryant]

I love to see a Breeder's Cup Champion be referred to as outclassed...that shows me ZERO credibility wow!  NEXT...

[mckinneyhog5]

I love to see a Breeder's Cup Champion be referred to as outclassed...that shows me ZERO credibility wow!  NEXT...

Don't need credibility from you..my picks speak for themselves.

[HogFanInBryant]

Don't need credibility from you..my picks speak for themselves.

You make it hard to be nice.  You really are an idiot by the way. 

[mckinneyhog5]

You make it hard to be nice.  You really are an idiot by the way. 

And you're a poor handicapper.

[HogFanInBryant]

And you're a poor handicapper.

Never said I was a great one, but you are still an idiot for making the statement you did about a BC Champion.  Outclassed?  How about he didn't run well for some reason.  Come on here beating your chest because a few of us thought Texas Red would run good and he throws in a dud?  And you think that automatically makes you some higher up handicapper than the rest of us?  You are an idiot until you take that statement back.  One race does not make nor break a horse player...but sometimes idiots don't understand certain things.  I'm done with this after this but show some freaking respect.  Unless you got on here and bragged all week that Keen Ice was for sure going to win the race...crawl back in your "wanna-be" hole.

[mckinneyhog5]

You're not worth the time for me to type a long post explaining why you're such a poor handicapper.  I will compare any picks both of us have made on the same race and I promise what I have bet will crush what you have bet.  BTW just because a horse wins a race as a 2 y.o. Doesn't make them great or even a class horse.  Great horses Improve throughout their career.  Texas Red isn't a great horse.  That's a fact!  Don't be a baby and man up when you lose.

[jdelo77]

Good lord this got out of hand quickly ...

[HogFanInBryant]

Good lord this got out of hand quickly ...

I agree...just guess I hate seeing nice horses get disrespected. 

[HogFanInBryant]

You're not worth the time for me to type a long post explaining why you're such a poor handicapper.  I will compare any picks both of us have made on the same race and I promise what I have bet will crush what you have bet.  BTW just because a horse wins a race as a 2 y.o. Doesn't make them great or even a class horse.  Great horses Improve throughout their career.  Texas Red isn't a great horse.  That's a fact!  Don't be a baby and man up when you lose.

I admit I lost.  Yes I thought Texas Red would show up today and run a nice race.  But I'm trying to figure out what you did that you are owed credit in the Travers?  Did you pick Keen Ice?  No you didn't...neither did anyone else.  Scratching my head on this one.  If you are just wanting some credit for Texas Red running bad...ok you were right.  But...he wasn't outclassed!  He just beat Frosted and he is a BC Champ.  You don't have an arguement that you pulled off something awesome with the results of the Travers.  Ok I am done now.  I do admit I shouldn't have called you an idiot.  My apologies on that...just jumped the gun a bit on your remark about a BC Champ.

[ghostzapper]

AP ran a bad race.  It happens.   He's been a very good horse but don't think he belongs in the pantheon of great race horses that some were trying to make him a part of. 

[ghostzapper]

Owner also quoted as saying he should probably retire him. 

[HogFanInBryant]

Owner also quoted as saying he should probably retire him. 

The match-up of AP and Beholder in the BCC just lost some luster.  I do think the ego of the AP posse will be too much to not run him in the BCC for one last shot at glory before he is retired.  AP won the TC...he has nothing at all to prove but I'd like to see him rested and fully cranked up...as a fan that is...

[cbhawg03]

No excuses for Texas Red other than the chart says he hit the gate leaving the gate, so not sure if something happened to him. Don't think he was outclassed though. Maybe so but will be interesting to see if something is wrong considering he hit the gate.

AP will be at Coolmore by Tuesday.

Love, absolutely love Victor crying about Lezcano on Drosted forcing AP towards the rail. If I'm not mistaken Victor was suspended for doing crap like that, but worse in a race in CA that Shared Belief was in and Victor was riding for Baffert. He was mad he got beat but sounded like Coburn after the Belmont almost.

McKinney, while you were right on Texas Red, want to see if he has something wrong after hitting the gate.

[ghostzapper]

AP had no excuses.  Pace went his way and he came home in 26+.  Most impressive winner on card today besides the Euro horse was RunHappy. 

[mckinneyhog5]

AP had no excuses.  Pace went his way and he came home in 26+.  Most impressive winner on card today besides the Euro horse was RunHappy. 

You're right AP had nothing left in the tank at the end, although Keen Ice had the perfect trip.  Had Frosted bested AP I could have seen cause for an Inquiry, but Keen Ice made that a moot point.

[ghostzapper]

Watched replay again. Cb, I did not see anything abrupt about Texas' Red start out of the gate. His performance is as puzzling' as AP's to me.    I also saw nothing that would have merited any kind of inquiry against Frosted.  If anything, AP came out into him. 

[ghostzapper]

Random observations about yesterday's race and comments made herein:

There is no such thing as class in horse racing.  There's talent, and that's it.  McKinney, you may be a good handicapper but claiming TR's performance yesterday was because he was "outclassed" is a lazy explanation of the race.

I am now convinced that the luckiest lottery winners in horse racing this year are the owners of Tale of Verve.  They stumbled into second in the Preakness in one of the worst showings by a second place horse in the history of that race, and convinced themselves they had a real live graded stakes horse.  He'll be lucky to win the non-winners of a race other than that he should be in if they ever come back to reality.

I am not a fan of AP's owner, but I appreciate the way he has handled the horse and his reactions after the race.  The horse should be retired and turned into a stallion money-making machine.  He can't enhance his reputation any more than he did by winning the Triple Crown.

Not sure what to make about Keen Ice.  Prior to the Haskell, he had run allowance like numbers in all of his races.  I doubt yesterday's number was that good and was only achieved when two horses who ran a slow pace in front of him fell apart.  I doubt I will be betting him in any race prior to BC or the BC itself.

Yesterday's loss and AP's pending retirement really make me appreciate even more what Spectacular Bid did.  I'm Secretariat all the way as the most talented race horse to look through a bridle, but what Spectacular Bid did time and again, with the weights he carried, is stunning.  It is why I shake my head in amazement that anyone would dare to put AP in the same category as the Bid.

Most disappointing horse for me this year is Upstart.  He started his career as a model of consistency and toughness at four different venues, and just fell off of the planet after the Florida Derby.  Yesterday's race was tailor made for him and he just couldn't do it. 




 

[cbhawg03]

Watched replay again. Cb, I did not see anything abrupt about Texas' Red start out of the gate. His performance is as puzzling' as AP's to me.    I also saw nothing that would have merited any kind of inquiry against Frosted.  If anything, AP came out into him.

The chart maker said that, not me. I didn't go back and watch it. Maybe it has been changed though.

[cbhawg03]

Random observations about yesterday's race and comments made herein:

There is no such thing as class in horse racing.  There's talent, and that's it.  McKinney, you may be a good handicapper but claiming TR's performance yesterday was because he was "outclassed" is a lazy explanation of the race.

I am now convinced that the luckiest lottery winners in horse racing this year are the owners of Tale of Verve.  They stumbled into second in the Preakness in one of the worst showings by a second place horse in the history of that race, and convinced themselves they had a real live graded stakes horse.  He'll be lucky to win the non-winners of a race other than that he should be in if they ever come back to reality.

I am not a fan of AP's owner, but I appreciate the way he has handled the horse and his reactions after the race.  The horse should be retired and turned into a stallion money-making machine.  He can't enhance his reputation any more than he did by winning the Triple Crown.

Not sure what to make about Keen Ice.  Prior to the Haskell, he had run allowance like numbers in all of his races.  I doubt yesterday's number was that good and was only achieved when two horses who ran a slow pace in front of him fell apart.  I doubt I will be betting him in any race prior to BC or the BC itself.

Yesterday's loss and AP's pending retirement really make me appreciate even more what Spectacular Bid did.  I'm Secretariat all the way as the most talented race horse to look through a bridle, but what Spectacular Bid did time and again, with the weights he carried, is stunning.  It is why I shake my head in amazement that anyone would dare to put AP in the same category as the Bid.

Most disappointing horse for me this year is Upstart.  He started his career as a model of consistency and toughness at four different venues, and just fell off of the planet after the Florida Derby.  Yesterday's race was tailor made for him and he just couldn't do it. 

Upstart should get a pass? Maybe. Only reason is that I don't know if he was ready for that race, trainer publicly said he wanted to avoid AP.  I don't like Upstart regardless but maybe he just wasn't ready.

[ghostzapper]

Sorry, was not trying to suggest you saw something that was not there.  He indeed may have hit gate, but it did not seem to affect his start. 

[ghostzapper]

Upstart should get a pass? Maybe. Only reason is that I don't know if he was ready for that race, trainer publicly said he wanted to avoid AP.  I don't like Upstart regardless but maybe he just wasn't ready.

Not sure where I suggested he should get a pass.  He just has not developed since he left Florida, which is odd because he works lights out between races.  I thought the Haskell might have been a little much for a comeback race, but it should have prepped him for yesterday's race, and he had nothing. Violette has to be puzzled. 

[songofthesword]

1. you can literally throw out everything on saratoga's dirt course when you're trying to figure out things there's nothing like it in the country.   All dirt is not equal AP has never ran on anything like it in his life.  you either LOVE it or you don't. Hores who were ordinary can be great on the semi surface change. horses that were great can look pretty ordane at saratoga



2. they never should have ran him.  when big red won the triple crown they gave him until the end of july / early august out then ran him in the now Secretariat at Arlington and even after that break, he never was the same. it wasn't enough rest.  AP is no big red and he never got a break.  You saw a very, very tired but talented horse.


If he were mine he would not hae saw the track until at the very earliest the Penn derby.  And when I brought him back i'd do so on turf in a 12F race  just to stretch him out


But now they have a convenient excuse not to run against older horeses. If he retires he will be the only triple crown winner ever to never run against older horses and I dont' know how that sits with me.



3. I wouldn't put too much stock in Beholder's performance i.e saratoga. she loves that surface


I dont understand all this talk about texas red he [CENSORED] sucks lol.

Most disappointing horse for me this year is Upstart.  He started his career as a model of consistency and toughness at four different venues, and just fell off of the planet after the Florida Derby.  Yesterday's race was tailor made for him and he just couldn't do it. 

He lost the fountain of youth to itsaknockout. Upstart's always been overrated.

[ghostzapper]

1. you can literally throw out everything on saratoga's dirt course when you're trying to figure out things there's nothing like it in the country.   All dirt is not equal AP has never ran on anything like it in his life.  you either LOVE it or you don't. Hores who were ordinary can be great on the semi surface change. horses that were great can look pretty ordane at saratoga



2. they never should have ran him.  when big red won the triple crown they gave him until the end of july / early august out then ran him in the now Secretariat at Arlington and even after that break, he never was the same. it wasn't enough rest.  AP is no big red and he never got a break.  You saw a very, very tired but talented horse.


If he were mine he would not hae saw the track until at the very earliest the Penn derby.  And when I brought him back i'd do so on turf in a 12F race  just to stretch him out


But now they have a convenient excuse not to run against older horeses. If he retires he will be the only triple crown winner ever to never run against older horses and I dont' know how that sits with me.



3. I wouldn't put too much stock in Beholder's performance i.e saratoga. she loves that surface


I dont understand all this talk about texas red he [CENSORED] sucks lol.


He lost the fountain of youth to itsaknockout. Upstart's always been overrated.

Not sure where you got your info on Big Red.  He ran again in June at Arlington, and then took off July before running at Saratoga in August.  Would that all horses could set the track records he did while "not being the same."

AP may have been tired but it wasn't from overuse.  He had what everyone was calling a gallop at the Haskell and four weeks off before the Travers.  He's fallible, like all of them.

[cbhawg03]

Not sure where I suggested he should get a pass.  He just has not developed since he left Florida, which is odd because he works lights out between races.  I thought the Haskell might have been a little much for a comeback race, but it should have prepped him for yesterday's race, and he had nothing. Violette has to be puzzled.

Never said you suggested he should get a pass. I don't care if he does get a pass or not, don't really think much of him.  My point is that maybe he gets a pass cause Violette didn't have the screws tightened cause he didn't know if he was even going to go in the Travers.

Would not be surprised one bit to see him wheel back in 3 weeks in PA Derby.

[cbhawg03]

1. you can literally throw out everything on saratoga's dirt course when you're trying to figure out things there's nothing like it in the country.   All dirt is not equal AP has never ran on anything like it in his life.  you either LOVE it or you don't. Hores who were ordinary can be great on the semi surface change. horses that were great can look pretty ordane at saratoga



2. they never should have ran him.  when big red won the triple crown they gave him until the end of july / early august out then ran him in the now Secretariat at Arlington and even after that break, he never was the same. it wasn't enough rest.  AP is no big red and he never got a break.  You saw a very, very tired but talented horse.


If he were mine he would not hae saw the track until at the very earliest the Penn derby.  And when I brought him back i'd do so on turf in a 12F race  just to stretch him out


But now they have a convenient excuse not to run against older horeses. If he retires he will be the only triple crown winner ever to never run against older horses and I dont' know how that sits with me.



3. I wouldn't put too much stock in Beholder's performance i.e saratoga. she loves that surface


I dont understand all this talk about texas red he [CENSORED] sucks lol.


He lost the fountain of youth to itsaknockout. Upstart's always been overrated.

If Texas Red sucks then where does that out Frosted?  And then you would have to say that AP has been beating a group that we thought was good but really ain't that good then.

[ghostzapper]

Never said you suggested he should get a pass. I don't care if he does get a pass or not, don't really think much of him.  My point is that maybe he gets a pass cause Violette didn't have the screws tightened cause he didn't know if he was even going to go in the Travers.

Would not be surprised one bit to see him wheel back in 3 weeks in PA Derby.

Maybe but, that would be pretty bad management of the horse.  When is the Super Derby?

[GoHogs1091]

It was bound to happen eventually.  A son by Curlin (the all-time money winner) out of a mare by Awesome Again (who I feel is the best stallion in the world) just showed that bloodlines can overcome a perceived all-time great horse who has been outrunning his pedigree.

Really a feather in the cap for Curlin and Lane's End (where Curlin stands).

Awesome Again is regarded as one of the best dirt Sires in the world.  Now the label of high quality Broodmare Sire can be added to Awesome Again.

It looks like Zayat is seriously contemplating retirement for American Pharoah.  He probably wants no part of Honor Code at the Breeders' Cup Classic.  Honor Code has a devastating closing style, and Zayat saw yesterday what a good closer can do to his horse.

[HawgWild]

No excuses for Texas Red other than the chart says he hit the gate leaving the gate, so not sure if something happened to him. Don't think he was outclassed though. Maybe so but will be interesting to see if something is wrong considering he hit the gate.

What happened to the super horse Texas Red?

Heading into the first turn he was running 5th and ran up on the horses in front while a horse came in on him. (It's right when the camera angle switched from the grandstand to looking in from the turn.) His jockey had to stand up and rein him in some, more steadied than checked. This can be a momentum buster for some horses. The rest of the race he was pretty much out of the picture.

[HogFanInBryant]

All I am going to add is that AP is still flesh and blood.  Texas Red does NOT suck and I hope he gets a chance to show up big very soon.  Saratoga is a freaky surface and yes SOS horses either thrive or fail on it.  Beholder was not a fluke on Del Mar's surface.  Remember that the surface at Del Mar is new and totally different than the old surface prior to polytrack.  I think AP comes back and runs a bang up race in the BCC.  Keen Ice will end up being a nice older horse if he stays sound.  My apologies to everyone that had to read my name calling.  Things happen when comments are made, but that is no excuse to go 1st grader and start throwing darts.  Last but not least...I am super exciting for the BC this year...just hope Keeneland can harbor the insane expectations put on them.

[songofthesword]

is AP as good as affirmed, big red, seattle slew. no. he never was

is he better then the group of horses that he's running agasint now? yes and it's not even close


he didn't run his best today. those fractions today weren't een all that wicked.  the track is really, really deep and thick.  he's tired and bafferet is not one to get a horse to run all year non stop. he needs a break but not won't get one

[ghostzapper]

Keen Ice's owner says AP ran his race, Keen Ice ran better.  From a speed figure perspective, he has a point.