The Big 3 football programs in Arkansas

[14erHog]

Arkansas     9-1
Ark. State    8-2
UCA            8-3

Do the records of these schools reflect the talent of Arkansas high school football, great coaching, or a combation of both?  I cannot remember a time when all of these schools were flying so high.

[hogsanity]

NO.  While you can do well at ASU and UCA using mainly in state kids, the UA CAN NOT survive doing so.  BP will bypass an Ar kid in a heartbeat if he thinks he can get AS GOOD or better from another state.

Think of it this way.  Do you want the 6th rated player form Ar, or the 20th rated player from Texas?  Do you want the 3rd rated RB or Qb from Ar, or do you want the 10th rates player from the same position from Florida? 

I think ASU may be benefitting from the Hogs not taking every Ar kid just because they are Ark kids.  ASU has some players that, from the 50's through 2007, would have been offered and signed by Ar just to keep the instate people happy.  Now, they are available for ASu to sign.

Oh, and Freeze is a good coach who seems to understand who ASu is, and what league they are in.  Instead of trying to become the big bully on the block overnight, he has adopted a more sensible approach.  He will build off of this season.  Sadly for ASU, if he has another good year in 2012, he will be gone.

[UncleFrank]

ASU has a better coach this year, IMO, and UCA plays in a conference where there are no Georgias or Alabamas or LSUs or Arkansas's or South Carolinas, etc.
Arkansas is obviously producing some decent talent, but level of competition is also a part of the equation.
The question I would have, though, is this: how many Arkansas kids are on the roster at ASU and UCA?  If it's like 60%-70% (or more), then I'd say yeah, the state is obviously producing a good deal of at least mid-level talent.
On the other hand, if half or more of their respective rosters are from out-of-state, I'd say it may be more good recruiting and coaching coming into play.

[14erHog]

Look at all of the Arkansas kids in CBP first class that led us to our first BCS game and on the verge of another 10 win season.  More than half of the key players on O and D are from Arkansas.

[UncleFrank]

Do you want the 6th rated player form Ar, or the 20th rated player from Texas?  Do you want the 3rd rated RB or Qb from Ar, or do you want the 10th rates player from the same position from Florida?

I want the best player, period. Many times, the 6th best player from Arkansas may actually be a better choice than the 20th best player in Texas. There are a lot of factors to consider, other than where they are ranked in their respective states.
Other times, the number one ranked player from Arkansas may not be as good as even the 12th best player in some other state.
Whoever is best--without regard to where they're ranked--should be chosen.

[hogsanity]

Look at all of the Arkansas kids in CBP first class that led us to our first BCS game and on the verge of another 10 win season.  More than half of the key players on O and D are from Arkansas.

That was an exceptional group of players in AR that year, especially at the skill positions.  What are the odds of a JW, Childs, and Gragg all being at Warren at the same time.  What has the WR crop in Ar been like since then?  where have almost all of the WR signees been from since that class was signed?

[UncleFrank]

That was an exceptional group of players in AR that year, especially at the skill positions.  What are the odds of a JW, Childs, and Gragg all being at Warren at the same time.  What has the WR crop in Ar been like since then?  where have almost all of the WR signees been from since that class was signed?

So....your point is what?
Sign all the Texas and Florida kids we can--especially if they're in their states' Top 20 players--then see if any Arkansas kids wanna come in and round out the class?
I don't think that's a very sound recruiting strategy.
You don't just assume some kid from out-of-state is better, simply because they produce more talent numbers-wise every year.
As I said before, you take the kid who's best for your system, without regard to numerical rankings, where he's from, or anything else.

[BenDial]

When I saw this was about big schools in the state and recruiting, I thought he was talking the University of Arkansas, Pulaski Academy, and Shiloh.

[ExArky]

There were times in the '80s when all 3 schools were doing  very well -- UA with Holtz/Hatfield in the SWC, ASU with Larry Lacewell at I-AA level while pushing Ole Miss and Texas A&M to the brink on their non-conf sked, and UCA with Harold Horton being a regular national contender in NAIA.

I would generally say UA/ASU tend to ebb and flow together at their respective levels. Lacewell and Hatfield resigned on the exact same day in the 1980s and both programs spun downhill for a while in the 90s. Both programs made bad coaching decisions (Crowe for UA, Kincaid for ASU) and had to adjust to a higher level of season play (UA in SEC, ASU really scraping bottom of the barrel moving up to I-A when the program was weak even for I-AA.) Nutt and Roberts provided long-term coaching stability but up-and-down seasons in the 00s. Now UA is near top of SEC and ASU is at the top of Sun Belt at the same time.

[hogsanity]

So....your point is what?
Sign all the Texas and Florida kids we can--especially if they're in their states' Top 20 players--then see if any Arkansas kids wanna come in and round out the class?
I don't think that's a very sound recruiting strategy.
You don't just assume some kid from out-of-state is better, simply because they produce more talent numbers-wise every year.
As I said before, you take the kid who's best for your system, without regard to numerical rankings, where he's from, or anything else.

NO, I am saying you DO NOT take kids just because they are in state kids.  If the top player in Ar is a running back, but a better Rb can be had from some where else, you go get the better kid.  I agree with you, you get the best.  Too many people still suffer from hometownheroitis, and flip out when the Hogs don't offer their local hero a scholarship. 

[007 License To Squeal]

Arkansas     9-1
Ark. State    8-2
UCA            8-3

Do the records of these schools reflect the talent of Arkansas high school football, great coaching, or a combation of both?  I cannot remember a time when all of these schools were flying so high.

Arkansas
Warren High School
Ark. State
UCA     

[Uncle_Larry]

ASU has a better coach this year, IMO, and UCA plays in a conference where there are no Georgias or Alabamas or LSUs or Arkansas's or South Carolinas, etc.
Arkansas is obviously producing some decent talent, but level of competition is also a part of the equation.
The question I would have, though, is this: how many Arkansas kids are on the roster at ASU and UCA?  If it's like 60%-70% (or more), then I'd say yeah, the state is obviously producing a good deal of at least mid-level talent.
On the other hand, if half or more of their respective rosters are from out-of-state, I'd say it may be more good recruiting and coaching coming into play.

UCA's conference is one of the better at the FCS level. Keep in mind that 2 of UCA's losses are to Division 1(FBS) programs. Arkansas State and Louisiana Tech in overtime. Their other loss came to an undefeated Sam Houston State team that is currently ranked 2nd in the major FCS poll. The Bears will be in the playoffs and likely hosting a first round game.

Can't argue with the Sun Belt being weak. But the Red Indian Wolves appear to be the class of that league. stAte has a good coach, the challenge will be if they can hang onto him for longer than a year or 2. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ole Miss come after him.

[UncleFrank]

Lacewell and Hatfield resigned on the exact same day in the 1980s and both programs spun downhill for a while in the 90s.

ASU just can't help themselves, can they?
They just HAVE to copy everything the Hogs (and their coaches) do! 

[Marshfieldhog]

There is only one big athletic program in the state..others are mid major at best

[Fan1958]

ASU has a better coach this year, IMO, and UCA plays in a conference where there are no Georgias or Alabamas or LSUs or Arkansas's or South Carolinas, etc.
Arkansas is obviously producing some decent talent, but level of competition is also a part of the equation.
The question I would have, though, is this: how many Arkansas kids are on the roster at ASU and UCA?  If it's like 60%-70% (or more), then I'd say yeah, the state is obviously producing a good deal of at least mid-level talent.
On the other hand, if half or more of their respective rosters are from out-of-state, I'd say it may be more good recruiting and coaching coming into play.

At UCA I count 23 from Arkansas from a total of 98 players on the roster so about 25%.

[BR]

I don't know, but I think it would be awesome if Arkansas could have 3 10 win teams. So I am rooting for all of them..

[Seminole Indian]

There are less than 20 players from Arkansas on scholarship at ASU. Only 2 from Arkansas start and 2 more are on the 2 deep.

ASU is recruiting better players across the board and while that means fewer players from Arkansas the ones they are signing are quality players so hopefully more from the state will make it onto the field.

[hogatouille]

NO.  While you can do well at ASU and UCA using mainly in state kids, the UA CAN NOT survive doing so.  BP will bypass an Ar kid in a heartbeat if he thinks he can get AS GOOD or better from another state.

Think of it this way.  Do you want the 6th rated player form Ar, or the 20th rated player from Texas?  Do you want the 3rd rated RB or Qb from Ar, or do you want the 10th rates player from the same position from Florida? 

I think ASU may be benefitting from the Hogs not taking every Ar kid just because they are Ark kids.  ASU has some players that, from the 50's through 2007, would have been offered and signed by Ar just to keep the instate people happy.  Now, they are available for ASu to sign.

Oh, and Freeze is a good coach who seems to understand who ASu is, and what league they are in.  Instead of trying to become the big bully on the block overnight, he has adopted a more sensible approach.  He will build off of this season.  Sadly for ASU, if he has another good year in 2012, he will be gone.

Signing kids just because they are from Texas or Florida has worked great for the powerhouses of Florida, Texas, and Miami last year and this year.  You get the best kids you can, period.  Stop being stupid.  Just because a kid is from an invisible line doesn't make him a better player. 

[Albert Einswine]

There is no "Big 3" in the State of Arkansas.  There is the University of Arkansas.  Carry on.

[tophawg19]

also if all things are equal or close go with the arkansas kid, he will likely give more heart and you establish contact and open future doors. nutt blew it at warren and probablt wouldn't have got many if any from there.

[hogsanity]

Signing kids just because they are from Texas or Florida has worked great for the powerhouses of Florida, Texas, and Miami last year and this year.  You get the best kids you can, period.  Stop being stupid.  Just because a kid is from an invisible line doesn't make him a better player. 

Why do so many on here have comprehension problems?  Look at all the posts in this thread.  I clearly said you sign the best players you can find.  If that were to be 25 players from in state, fine. 

As to the OP, no, the records of those 3 teams is not related to Ar HS football, because Ar HS football is so far behind the rest of the states we normally recruit ( Bama, Ga, Ms, La, Tx and OU ) it is not even funny. 

[14erHog]

I don't know, but I think it would be awesome if Arkansas could have 3 10 win teams. So I am rooting for all of them..

THIS^^^^

[hogatouille]

Why do so many on here have comprehension problems?  Look at all the posts in this thread.  I clearly said you sign the best players you can find.  If that were to be 25 players from in state, fine. 

As to the OP, no, the records of those 3 teams is not related to Ar HS football, because Ar HS football is so far behind the rest of the states we normally recruit ( Bama, Ga, Ms, La, Tx and OU ) it is not even funny.

You clearly said Petrino would rather have a kid out of state if he was equal to one in state.  Do you seriously believe that or are you just seeing how much BS you can spew without drowning in it? 
That's like me saying "gas is 3 dollars 1 block away and 3 dollars 100 miles away.  I'd rather have the same gas 100 miles away".

[hogsanity]

You clearly said Petrino would rather have a kid out of state if he was equal to one in state.  Do you seriously believe that or are you just seeing how much BS you can spew without drowning in it? 
That's like me saying "gas is 3 dollars 1 block away and 3 dollars 100 miles away.  I'd rather have the same gas 100 miles away".

Yea, I believe it, because his recruiting classes have shown it.  BP is not going to go out of his way to sign a kid just because the kid is from Ar, becuase BP knows the life of this program is going to be sustained on OUT OF STATE talent. 

Lets put it another way, over a 10 or 20 yr period, TExas/FL/LSU/GA/Bama would all be winning programs only signing in state kids, AR WOULD NOT be a winning program doing that.

[hogatouille]

Yea, I believe it, because his recruiting classes have shown it.  BP is not going to go out of his way to sign a kid just because the kid is from Ar, becuase BP knows the life of this program is going to be sustained on OUT OF STATE talent. 

Lets put it another way, over a 10 or 20 yr period, TExas/FL/LSU/GA/Bama would all be winning programs only signing in state kids, AR WOULD NOT be a winning program doing that.

That's not the same point you made though.  You said if they were as good or better.  Clearly better he would leave the state.  But he wouldn't give up on an equal player in Arkansas just because they were across an imaginary line. 

[Albert Einswine]

Bobby will not eschew a 3 or 4 star Arkansas kid for an equivalent kid from elsewhere. That makes no sense.

[Seminole Indian]

There is no "Big 3" in the State of Arkansas.  There is the University of Arkansas.  Carry on.

As long as ASU, UALR and UCA are winning and going to bowl games making the playoffs and going to the NCAA tournaments, I don't think their fans have a problem with the "only one school" folks at all.

[Albert Einswine]

The other schools are having good years as well, good for them and their fans, but their programs aren't peers and the "Big 3" concept is myth in Arkansas.  Works in Florida, which is about the only place such a notion has any credence.

[The_Bionic_Pig]

Personally I would love for ESPN to show highlights from every D-1 program instate...its all about Arkansas for me!

[ErieHog]

Bobby will not eschew a 3 or 4 star Arkansas kid for an equivalent kid from elsewhere. That makes no sense.

Generally, I agree, but I do think there is a caveat to that;  there are some deep talent pool schools in places like Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans, Shreveport, etc.,  where the temptation has to exist to take the kid over a very similar kid from a Harrison or a West Fork or a LR Central.    The AR relationships are not exactly going to dry up overnight from not taking one kid from a traditional territory,  whereas new relationships can be built with places that provide better long term potential talent.

I also doubt they think of it in exactly those terms, but the net effect is not to be dismissed.

[Albert Einswine]

But I would think that Bobby could just look at the roster since he's been here til this very day and see that it's extremely important to his program to mine the finest ore from this state.  I don't think you'll ever see him eschew an Adams, Childs, Gragg, Wright, Bequette, Franklin, Wilson... just to land an equivalent counterpart from Atlanta.

[GotPig?]

There is no "Big 3" in the State of Arkansas.  There is the University of Arkansas.  Carry on.

^^^^THIS (although I'm happy with ASU for having a good year.  Goodness knows they deserve it after decades of sheer embarrassing horror).

[Seminole Indian]

The other schools are having good years as well, good for them and their fans, but their programs aren't peers and the "Big 3" concept is myth in Arkansas.  Works in Florida, which is about the only place such a notion has any credence.

Like I said I don't think fans of of ASU, don't know about UCA, have any problems with the "one school crowed" because they know it is not an obstacle to their having successful programs.

FYI,  some fans of your former conference mates like Texas, Texas A&M, TCU and SMU might disagree a little.  Probably due to the fact that they learned the hard way that their is another FBS program in Arkansas.  In most games they either narrowly escaped with their hides intact or got skinned.

[mwm]

There is no "Big 3" in the State of Arkansas.  There is the University of Arkansas.  Carry on.

Thankyou. I am sure everyone on the board was thinking that. HAHA UCA football

[hogsanity]

That's not the same point you made though.  You said if they were as good or better.  Clearly better he would leave the state.  But he wouldn't give up on an equal player in Arkansas just because they were across an imaginary line. 

Bobby will not eschew a 3 or 4 star Arkansas kid for an equivalent kid from elsewhere. That makes no sense.

He is not going to bend over backwards or wait until singing day for a 3 or 4 star kid from Ar either. 

Another point, I will contend that Ar kids often look better than they really are due to the competiton they face in state. 

[hogsanity]

Generally, I agree, but I do think there is a caveat to that;  there are some deep talent pool schools in places like Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans, Shreveport, etc.,  where the temptation has to exist to take the kid over a very similar kid from a Harrison or a West Fork or a LR Central.    The AR relationships are not exactly going to dry up overnight from not taking one kid from a traditional territory,  whereas new relationships can be built with places that provide better long term potential talent.

I also doubt they think of it in exactly those terms, but the net effect is not to be dismissed.

Plus, is a 3 star kid from West Fork really as good as a 3 start kid from those areas you listed?  Is the Ar kid 3 star because he is just better than everyone else in AAA. In other words, would he still be 3 or 4 star if he played at Bentonville or FS Southside.

I just want them to sign the best 25 players they can sign.  I don't really care where they are from.  I also don't want to hear our fans gripe when some kid from Elain or Hartfor does not get signed by the Hogs.

I alsways love it when someone calls into one of the in state shows and asks about some kid and if the Hogs are recruiting him, and Trey Biddy or whoever is on says, no.  Invariably the caller says something to the effect of "Well those morons are making a huge mistake not offering him ".  Of course no one else is offering him either.

[Ftsmithmike]

Big three?

I have never even considered watching ASU or UCA play a game of football and I don't think I'm in the minority.

[hogsanity]

Big three?

I have never even considered watching ASU or UCA play a game of football and I don't think I'm in the minority.

If those programs can win, at their levels, without doing so on the back of the Hogs, fine.  My big gripe with ASU ( btw I am a ASu grad ) is that they continaully have tried to tie their success to playing the Hogs.  They did not always word it that way, but that was always the undertone about being so desperate to play the Hogs. 

Freeze seems to be more of a " Lets win the games we do play, and make a name that way " type of guy.  They might very well win 10 games this year, and get to a bowl better than the Sunbelt tie in ( the New Orleans bowl? ) in doing so. 

[clutch]

If those programs can win, at their levels, without doing so on the back of the Hogs, fine.  My big gripe with ASU ( btw I am a ASu grad ) is that they continaully have tried to tie their success to playing the Hogs.  They did not always word it that way, but that was always the undertone about being so desperate to play the Hogs. 

Freeze seems to be more of a " Lets win the games we do play, and make a name that way " type of guy.  They might very well win 10 games this year, and get to a bowl better than the Sunbelt tie in ( the New Orleans bowl? ) in doing so. 

I really think that attitude is dying out. I am an ASU student and I don't really hear all the talk about wanting to play the Hogs near as much as I used to. I've never thought it was a good idea, probably because I have always been a Hog fan first, but some did. It seemed to be only the die hards who absolutely hated the UofA for some unknown reason.

The attitude now days seems to be win the sunbelt and compete in the non-conference games with tougher opponents such as Virginia Tech, A&M, Texas, Auburn, etc. They have done a pretty good job at that lately and it seems to be working well for the program. Bringing in Freeze as the HC this year seemed to put the finishing touch to the new attitude. Now most ASU fans only care about winning as many games as possible and not having to resort to the Hogs won't play us mindset. It's a nice change in my opinion. Everybody seems to be a lot happier. I see no reason why people shouldn't be able to cheer for both teams. I would like nothing more than to see the Hogs do well at the top of the college football world and in BCS bowl games while ASU takes care of business in the Sunbelt.

I hate the fact that Freeze won't be around much longer. I just hope they continue in the right direction once he moves on and bring in another guy with the same approach. The foundation has been put down. There is no reason that ASU can't continue to be a top Sunbelt team and win 8-10 games a year.

[OTTER]

UCA will always be SCABs in my book.

[Seminole Indian]

If those programs can win, at their levels, without doing so on the back of the Hogs, fine.  My big gripe with ASU ( btw I am a ASu grad ) is that they continaully have tried to tie their success to playing the Hogs.  They did not always word it that way, but that was always the undertone about being so desperate to play the Hogs. 

Freeze seems to be more of a " Lets win the games we do play, and make a name that way " type of guy.  They might very well win 10 games this year, and get to a bowl better than the Sunbelt tie in ( the New Orleans bowl? ) in doing so.

I think the zenith for ASU fans  wanting to play the Hawgs in football was back when ASU played in the black hole called 1AA(now FCS). The Lacewell era.

That most people in Arkansas would like to see the schools play is a fact but I don't get the feeling that anyone associated with ASU is losing any sleep because they don't play.

[ErieHog]

it's extremely important to his program to mine the finest ore from this state

I don't think it's possible for me to disagree more vehemently with this part of the statement.   Nobody really cares where they come from, we care about the performance,  1st, 2nd, and last.

[hogsanity]

I don't think it's possible for me to disagree more vehemently with this part of the statement.   Nobody really cares where they come from, we care about the performance,  1st, 2nd, and last.

Dont say nobody cares where they come from, alot of people in this thread, and a lot of the fans most certainly do care.  They think every johnny football from podunk Ar should be offered by the Hogs.

[Aston Martin 8 dude]

ASU has a better coach this year, IMO, and UCA plays in a conference where there are no Georgias or Alabamas or LSUs or Arkansas's or South Carolinas, etc.
Arkansas is obviously producing some decent talent, but level of competition is also a part of the equation.
The question I would have, though, is this: how many Arkansas kids are on the roster at ASU and UCA?  If it's like 60%-70% (or more), then I'd say yeah, the state is obviously producing a good deal of at least mid-level talent.
On the other hand, if half or more of their respective rosters are from out-of-state, I'd say it may be more good recruiting and coaching coming into play.

At the risk of being "smited" in recent years UCA has continued to benefit from transfers from the Hill (a reverse farm club situation) and this year the transfer of Grandy from OM. All three have a fair number of kids from outside the state.

[Albert Einswine]

Oh no!  Erie and sanity I couldn't disagree with the 2 of you more.  Erie, to you, it doesn't matter where they come from, that much I'll agree with, but it's imperative that we take every single elite player this state produces if they fit the profile physically, mentally and character wise.  Sanity, to you, I'm only talking about the elite and SEC caliber players so don't lump me in with the guys that call in saying we should offer Billy Joe from Norphlet.  If they are here and fit, we should keep them.

[hogsanity]

Oh no!  Erie and sanity I couldn't disagree with the 2 of you more.  Erie, to you, it doesn't matter where they come from, that much I'll agree with, but it's imperative that we take every single elite player this state produces if they fit the profile physically, mentally and character wise.  Sanity, to you, I'm only talking about the elite and SEC caliber players so don't lump me in with the guys that call in saying we should offer Billy Joe from Norphlet.  If they are here and fit, we should keep them.

I dont disagree at all.  SEC calibre is SEC calibre.  Does not matter where they are from.  My question is not on the elite players.  My comments are to the 3 and maybe even 4 star players.   

[Albert Einswine]

The majority of players even in elite programs are high 3 star and 4 star rated talent.

[BigSexyHog]

I want the best player, period. Many times, the 6th best player from Arkansas may actually be a better choice than the 20th best player in Texas. There are a lot of factors to consider, other than where they are ranked in their respective states.
Other times, the number one ranked player from Arkansas may not be as good as even the 12th best player in some other state.
Whoever is best--without regard to where they're ranked--should be chosen.

Can you please provide an example of when the #6 ranked kid in Arkansas is above the #20 ranked kid from Texas or Florida?  I will sit back and wait for your answer.

[12247]

It is my opinion that our Senior WRs that are so good were partly made that good by a coaching staff that wouldn't settle for less and knew how to coach a WR.  I doubt they all left High School destined for stardom.  I think the offensive players coming to Arkansas the past 4 years actually have learned many of the finer points of football after they arrived.  That is not so obvious with the defensive players.  Point is those WRs under many coaches would have been just pretty good football players with no future after college.  My thoughts are that there are many kids playing football in Arkansas that could far exceed their current level of play if they had great coaching and had a need to step up due to competition pushing them.  In most smaller High Schools in Arkansas, the better talent doesn't have to really reach and get it to start and be a star ( Big fish, little bowl) 

[hogsanity]

The majority of players even in elite programs are high 3 star and 4 star rated talent.

Yes, and?

Again, I would rather have a 3 or 4 star player from the largest classification in texas, than from Morrilton or Siloam Springs.