Is it time for all programs to start cheating?

[mizzouman]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/when-it-comes-to-college-athletics--it-sure-seems-cheating-pays-202028701.html

[Inhogswetrust]

I'll say an emphatic NO. The little12 commish says yes so I'm not surprised. That being said a LOT of schools over the years and damn near everyone of them have been on probation at one time and they didn't win a title while on probation. It's not EVER time to cheat. It IS time to lower the boom on cheaters.

[southarkhog06]

good article.

I would still not cheat. I like the feeling of supporting a clean program, whether we ever win another NC or not.

[southarkhog06]

I'll say an emphatic NO. The little12 commish says yes so I'm not surprised. That being said a LOT of schools over the years and damn near everyone of them have been on probation at one time and they didn't win a title while on probation.

look at every teem that has won the NC this decade, all cheaters.

[Hoggish1]

the last two ¶s:

Some suggestions that would increase the risk: season-long suspensions for coaches – if the schools want to keep them, it will come at a cost; bigger financial penalties, provided the collateral damage doesn't come to non-revenue sports that are not involved in any rule-breaking; and a reintroduction of the television ban, with an accompanying loss of TV revenue. That would raise holy hell with broadcast partners who really don't care at all who cheats (just look at who they hire as analysts), but it would hit schools where it hurts. Try recruiting players when you tell them they won't be on TV for a year, in an era when everyone is on TV.

As it stands now, there is enough reward to outweigh the risk. First, they have to catch you. Then they have to apply a punishment that is a true deterrent. The NCAA BB gun isn't winning many firefights at the moment.
-------

The way I see it, there is no way to penalize any school, coach or conference without the top 65 schools just backing out of the NCAA.

The only chance the NCAA has is to drastically remove the huge number of rules they can't monitor and enforced anyhow.

Just try to get down to the most important five rules and try to run with those.

[gawntrail]

Being hit with penalties for sloppy paperwork or something like it is understandable when navigating a regulatory minefield.

But, outright cheating.... That's where I get off the wagon. 

[Inhogswetrust]

look at every teem that has won the NC this decade, all cheaters.

Have they taken away any NC's for those teams.....no. Thus bigger and badder penalties are what is needed. Do you honestly think a coach or player would cheat IF they had to go to jail. When faced with severe legal penalties which his what the NCAA needs they start acting like a monk.................

[Inhogswetrust]

good article.

I would still not cheat. I like the feeling of supporting a clean program, whether we ever win another NC or not.

I will admit that all programs have cheated in the past to some degree including ours unfortunately. They cannot control everyone involved with the programs and most especially boosters.

[gawntrail]

I will admit that all programs have cheated in the past to some degree including ours unfortunately. They cannot control everyone involved with the programs and most especially boosters.

Boosters can be dealt with back behind the woodshed.  Idiots everywhere think they're smarter and slicker.  But, the program itself has to be kept squeeky clean.

[Inhogswetrust]

Boosters can be dealt with back behind the woodshed.  Idiots everywhere think they're smarter and slicker.  But, the program itself has to be kept squeeky clean.

Agree. However there needs to be a mechanism or a way for boosters to get REAL penalties maybe even jail time just as it it does for people within the program. Then most wouldn't do it.

[bigdaddyhawg]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/when-it-comes-to-college-athletics--it-sure-seems-cheating-pays-202028701.html

What good does it do a man to gain the world if he sells his soul to get it?

[PorkRinds]

I'm going to admit something that I've done that's pertinent to the situation.  I coach little league sports.  Our league (boys club) is rife with people breaking the rules.  The major rules being broken is recruiting players from other teams and clubs to come play for your team.  We coached for many years, and won plenty of championships.  About 5 years ago, we started falling behind, and realized that players who played for our boys club in their younger age bracket were going to a club across town.  Not much we could do about it besides have the younger coaches talk to the parents about staying.  Eventually we had a returner from our team, an absolute stud, move over to another boys club, which isn't legal to do because you could only change clubs between age groups. They got around the rule because his dad was offered a coaching position on the new team.  Keep in mind coaching your own kid is also against the rules.  Once we started digging, every assistant coach on this team (they had 5 assistants when the rules stated you can only have three) had a stud kid playing on the team.  We reported it to the director, nothing was done.  So because it was obvious EVERYONE else was breaking the rules and nothing was going to be done, we started doing the exact same thing.  We recruited players.  We wouldn't take returners off of other teams and we wouldn't let their parents coach, but we went to little league games for other boys clubs and talked to parents and built a powerhouse team.  We won the league the next year, but I've always felt like it was tainted because we had to break the rules that everyone else was breaking to win. This is in boys club, mind you.  I can't imagine what people would do when money and prestige comes into play in college athletics.

  Here is my point.  If there are rules on the books that aren't enforced, they aren't really rules.  Rules shouldn't be suggestions, because then honorable people follow them to the detriment of the kids on the team. We decided that our ability to play by the rules was more important than winning, so every subsequent year we've been in 2nd or 3rd place.  I'm ok with that, because we do it by following rules that everyone else is breaking, but it isn't fair to our kids.  They work as hard or likely harder than any team out there, but because we have the scruples to follow the rules, we aren't likely to win the championship. The same teams win year after year because they cheat. 

  So the NCAA needs to crap, or get off the pot.  Making rules and then not enforcing them is not the way to run things.  Allowing the top tier teams to break the rules unchecked only hurts those that do follow the rules.  So they should either remove rules that they don't want to enforce, or enforce them. 

[Inhogswetrust]

What good does it do a man to gain the world if he sells his soul to get it?

BINGO!

[mizzouman]

What good does it do a man to gain the world if he sells his soul to get it?

Tells me that those who cheat have no soul.

[Inhogswetrust]

I'm going to admit something that I've done that's pertinent to the situation.  I coach little league sports.  Our league (boys club) is rife with people breaking the rules.  The major rules being broken is recruiting players from other teams and clubs to come play for your team.  We coached for many years, and won plenty of championships.  About 5 years ago, we started falling behind, and realized that players who played for our boys club in their younger age bracket were going to a club across town.  Not much we could do about it besides have the younger coaches talk to the parents about staying.  Eventually we had a returner from our team, an absolute stud, move over to another boys club, which isn't legal to do because you could only change clubs between age groups. They got around the rule because his dad was offered a coaching position on the new team.  Keep in mind coaching your own kid is also against the rules.  Once we started digging, every assistant coach on this team (they had 5 assistants when the rules stated you can only have three) had a stud kid playing on the team.  We reported it to the director, nothing was done.  So because it was obvious EVERYONE else was breaking the rules and nothing was going to be done, we started doing the exact same thing.  We recruited players.  We wouldn't take returners off of other teams and we wouldn't let their parents coach, but we went to little league games for other boys clubs and talked to parents and built a powerhouse team.  We won the league the next year, but I've always felt like it was tainted because we had to break the rules that everyone else was breaking to win. This is in boys club, mind you.  I can't imagine what people would do when money and prestige comes into play in college athletics.

  Here is my point.  If there are rules on the books that aren't enforced, they aren't really rules.  Rules shouldn't be suggestions, because then honorable people follow them to the detriment of the kids on the team. We decided that our ability to play by the rules was more important than winning, so every subsequent year we've been in 2nd or 3rd place.  I'm ok with that, because we do it by following rules that everyone else is breaking, but it isn't fair to our kids.  They work as hard or likely harder than any team out there, but because we have the scruples to follow the rules, we aren't likely to win the championship. The same teams win year after year because they cheat. 

  So the NCAA needs to crap, or get off the pot.  Making rules and then not enforcing them is not the way to run things.  Allowing the top tier teams to break the rules unchecked only hurts those that do follow the rules.  So they should either remove rules that they don't want to enforce, or enforce them. 

THAT is the problem. No REAL deterent.

[mizzouman]

Forde makes a point.  Does the reward outweigh the risks?  If, in the long run, nothing is done to the coach or the program long term, then why not cheat? 

If I was King of the NCAA, any program that cheats, would need to pay back all the revenue from tickets sales for the seasons they cheated and the coach would be banned for 10 years.  Or i would do something similar.  The only thing schools understand is $$.

[southarkhog06]

Have they taken away any NC's for those teams.....no. Thus bigger and badder penalties are what is needed. Do you honestly think a coach or player would cheat IF they had to go to jail. When faced with severe legal penalties which his what the NCAA needs they start acting like a monk.................

I agree with you, well maybe not jailtime.

[Hoggish1]

  So the NCAA needs to crap, or get off the pot.  Making rules and then not enforcing them is not the way to run things.  Allowing the top tier teams to break the rules unchecked only hurts those that do follow the rules.  So they should either remove rules that they don't want to enforce, or enforce them. 

If there are so many rules that, even if you wanted to, you wouldn't have time or the manpower to enforce, then there are too many rules.

The NCAA should cut the number rules they have to the absolute minimum that are needed to make the sport fair for all.

Then they should enforce them with everything they've got.

Rules, as you say, that aren't enforced are not real rules. 

The question is:  What are the fundamental rules (real ones) that are fundamental to the sport and that must be enforced?  Get rid of all the others and enforce those.

[PorkRinds]

If there are so many rules that, even if you wanted to, you wouldn't have time or the manpower to enforce, then there are too many rules.

The NCAA should cut the number rules they have to the absolute minimum that are needed to make the sport fair for all.

Then they should enforce them with everything they've got.

Rules, as you say, that aren't enforced are not real rules. 

The question is:  What are the fundamental rules (real ones) that are fundamental to the sport and that must be enforced?  Get rid of all the others and enforce those.

Exactly.  Because some programs and coaches are going to follow ALL the rules because they have the scruples and morals to.  Others don't, and it puts the teams that do it the right way at a disadvantage.  That's more acceptable when it's little league, but when real dollars are on the line, it's kicks it to a whole new level.

[southarkhog06]

Exactly.  Because some programs and coaches are going to follow ALL the rules because they have the scruples and morals to.  Others don't, and it puts the teams that do it the right way at a disadvantage.  That's more acceptable when it's little league, but when real dollars are on the line, it's kicks it to a whole new level.

the only thing I disagree with is I think its less acceptable in little league.

[PorkRinds]

the only thing I disagree with is I think its less acceptable in little league.

I would agree that it's not fair anywhere. I guess my point was there aren't really that high of stakes in little league.  The kids are clueless as to what goes on behind the scenes at such a young age.  They don't realize the deck is stacked against them, and we don't act like it is. 

[Calling All Hogs]

The NCAA needs to at least police it to the point it can't be done openly. Otherwise you get into the mess the Southwest Conference had in the 1980's.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Tells me that those who cheat have no soul.

Maybe, but I know for sure they have a very strong power of justification.

As do some on here, actually.

But for me, the ends never justify the means.

[runich]

Anyone think that Calipari has changed his ways and is no longer cheating at UK???

[southarkhog06]

I would agree that it's not fair anywhere. I guess my point was there aren't really that high of stakes in little league.  The kids are clueless as to what goes on behind the scenes at such a young age.  They don't realize the deck is stacked against them, and we don't act like it is.

I was thinking that because the stakes are so low in little league you have to be a special kind of jackass to put impressionable kids in a "its fine to break the rules as long as you win" environment just to feed your own ego.
I never really considered that the kids may have no clue whats going on when i made that statement.

[Pork Twain]

Start?

[PorkRinds]

I was thinking that because the stakes are so low in little league you have to be a special kind of jackass to put impressionable kids in a "its fine to break the rules as long as you win" environment just to feed your own ego.
I never really considered that the kids may have no clue whats going on when i made that statement.

Oh you're right.  It does take a special kind of person to cheat at little league.  But they do constantly.  It's really dirty and has gotten worse.  Like I said, we did it one year and couldn't live with ourselves, and we weren't even doing it outlandishly.  We'd rather get a clean 2nd place than a dirty championship. 

[bigdaddyhawg]

Anyone think that Calipari has changed his ways and is no longer cheating at UK???

I doubt if he even has to at this point. 

With all the publicity he's getting and has gotten for all the one and done's that have gone high in the draft, he's got all the recruiting ammo he needs, I suspect.

Now he may still do it, but that would be because old habits die hard.

[PorkRinds]

Little League

As we saw with Chicago, there are groups of grown adults perfectly willing to ignore league boundaries in attempts to build a championship team. 
Further - every single player on that team knew who wasn't from their LL district.
 

Here in San Diego it's common knowledge in the baseball community that the Chula Vista team that won a few years ago had 2 kids from Tijuana on the squad. 

Also - It is a trivial matter to purchase LL bats that have been professionally shaved and rolled to essentially turn the bats into weaponized trampolines. 


"Start?" is spot on.

Rolled bats are legal.  Shaved bats are not.  I don't see an issue with rolling, because it's basically just breaking in the bat instantly instead of over time. Shaving changes the compression, which makes it illegal.

[Theolesnort]

I'll say an emphatic NO. The little12 commish says yes so I'm not surprised. That being said a LOT of schools over the years and damn near everyone of them have been on probation at one time and they didn't win a title while on probation. It's not EVER time to cheat. It IS time to lower the boom on cheaters.

Time to cheat? Well that train pulled out of the station some time ago. Didn't Auburn and the situation with the preacher daddy teach you anything? It doesn't make it right but if you continually let others take advantage of your honesty then you are being a idealistic fool. Sad world we live in isn't it when many abuse the honesty of others?

[Inhogswetrust]

Time to cheat? Well that train pulled out of the station some time ago. Didn't Auburn and the situation with the preacher daddy teach you anything? It doesn't make it right but if you continually let others take advantage of your honesty then you are being a idealistic fool. Sad world we live in isn't it when many abuse the honesty of others?

I agree cheating is rampant. That doesn't make it right and I for one do not want to win a championship under those circumstances. Nobody abuses my honesty. I measure myself by my own character despite how others may use it to their advantage in their eyes. Just because others cheat doesn't mean I have too and it sure as heck doesn't make it right. 

[bigdaddyhawg]

Sad world we live in isn't it when many abuse the honesty of others?

This has been a reality of human existence since God threw Adam/Eve out of the Garden.

[sooeey pig pig pig]

If you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin.

[mizzouman]

Does eliminating freshman eligibility help with the cheating?

[bigdaddyhawg]

Does eliminating freshman eligibility help with the cheating?

Doubtful, it might actually make it worse, but it's irrelevant as that will never be put into effect again.

I tuned in to the Big Ten network and some guys were having a roundtable discussion, and they were saying it was stupid to even talk about it -- on their own network!!  I laughed my rear off.

[NaturalStateReb]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/when-it-comes-to-college-athletics--it-sure-seems-cheating-pays-202028701.html

There's cheating, Cheating, and Auburn Cheating.

Every program probably has a little of the first kind.  Hundred dollar handshakes, stuff that works the black of the NCAA enforcement plate. 

Capital-C cheating, major stuff, probably doesn't go on at lots of places.  But the NCAA enforcement mechanism is so broken right now, and the rewards for winning are so high, some are tempted.

Auburn Cheating, well, that just happens at one place.

[redeye]

If the goal is to win titles, then yes.  However, I may not be around to watch, because I don't think cheaters win anything.  I'm almost at that point already, since almost every NC in football is won by a cheater nowadays.

[LZH]

We all cheat.  Some are just more aggressive than others.

[tusksincolorado]

What was wrong with the Death Penalty?

[Torqued pork]

When I see the profit some of the elite football factories are making and the ever-growing coaching salaries my view on cheaters has softened somewhat.

[Smokehouse]

I have two degrees from the U of A. I'd rather my alma mater always be known for doing things right, even if it eventually leads to its teams having their teeth kicked in by cheaters, because I have that connection to the university.

Unfortunately, a lot of the punishments that would be effective end up punishing the students on the team who haven't done anything wrong. I think the best way to go are big fines and significant punishments on the coaches. Year or longer bans and fines that actually put a dent in their paychecks.

[LZH]

What was wrong with the Death Penalty?

Depends on if you're dead or not....I reckon.

[Squeal Young]

Warren Buffett's two rules of success:

Rule #1: Never lose money.
Rule #2: Never forget Rule #1

The NCAA long ago sold their interest in the integrity of college athletics. For cheating to stop, the people who make kids wear those rainbow glo-stick throw-up uniforms, or make them play basketball games at 10:00pm on a Tuesday night, or insist on telling you that John Calipari has taken teams to five Final Fours will have to do something about it. And that would be a clear violation of Rule #2.

[OldCoot]

I'm going to admit something that I've done that's pertinent to the situation.  I coach little league sports.  Our league (boys club) is rife with people breaking the rules.  The major rules being broken is recruiting players from other teams and clubs to come play for your team.  We coached for many years, and won plenty of championships.  About 5 years ago, we started falling behind, and realized that players who played for our boys club in their younger age bracket were going to a club across town.  Not much we could do about it besides have the younger coaches talk to the parents about staying.  Eventually we had a returner from our team, an absolute stud, move over to another boys club, which isn't legal to do because you could only change clubs between age groups. They got around the rule because his dad was offered a coaching position on the new team.  Keep in mind coaching your own kid is also against the rules.  Once we started digging, every assistant coach on this team (they had 5 assistants when the rules stated you can only have three) had a stud kid playing on the team.  We reported it to the director, nothing was done.  So because it was obvious EVERYONE else was breaking the rules and nothing was going to be done, we started doing the exact same thing.  We recruited players.  We wouldn't take returners off of other teams and we wouldn't let their parents coach, but we went to little league games for other boys clubs and talked to parents and built a powerhouse team.  We won the league the next year, but I've always felt like it was tainted because we had to break the rules that everyone else was breaking to win. This is in boys club, mind you.  I can't imagine what people would do when money and prestige comes into play in college athletics.

  Here is my point.  If there are rules on the books that aren't enforced, they aren't really rules.  Rules shouldn't be suggestions, because then honorable people follow them to the detriment of the kids on the team. We decided that our ability to play by the rules was more important than winning, so every subsequent year we've been in 2nd or 3rd place.  I'm ok with that, because we do it by following rules that everyone else is breaking, but it isn't fair to our kids.  They work as hard or likely harder than any team out there, but because we have the scruples to follow the rules, we aren't likely to win the championship. The same teams win year after year because they cheat. 

  So the NCAA needs to crap, or get off the pot.  Making rules and then not enforcing them is not the way to run things.  Allowing the top tier teams to break the rules unchecked only hurts those that do follow the rules.  So they should either remove rules that they don't want to enforce, or enforce them.

I agree with what you said except that the NCAA has already crapped all over the pot.  They arent relevant anymore.  They need to be abolished.  They went against everything they have ever said when they agreed to start compensating players.  They did this to keep themselves from being voted out and a new organization come in.  By trying to keep themselves relevant, they rendered themselves useless.

[Choctaw Hog]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/when-it-comes-to-college-athletics--it-sure-seems-cheating-pays-202028701.html

The NCAA has demonstrated time and time again that they can be influenced by the larger programs into ignoring obvious infractions and they've become nothing more than a "paper tiger".

The NCAA is an all voluntary organization and the infractions committee is not a court of law so they don't have to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt. If the preponderance of evidence suggests a school violated recruiting rules then they have every right to punish that school, the coaches, and any player involved. 

Until the NCAA starts holding schools and coaches accountable cheating will continue.  However, I don't believe anything will be done because of all the money involved. Should Arkansas cheat?  Absolutely not! The day it becomes a cheating free-for-all is the day I'll quit following the Hogs and find a pro team to follow.  After all, a cheating NCAA organization is nothing more than a semi-pro organization.       

[Choctaw Hog]

What was wrong with the Death Penalty?

I prefer severely crippling a program for many years (6-10 years) over the death penalty and I'm talking about  half the scholarships, very limited recruiting contacts, no bowl games, etc.

It's a harsher punishment to make a program play on one leg with both hands tied behind their back than to not have to play at all. 

[Michael D Huff AIA]

Before we can ask the NCAA to enforce any policies and procedures against cheating schools, we must first ask the NCAA to police itself.  The governing body of college athletics had better have its own house in order before dropping any hammers on anyone for cheating.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Before we can ask the NCAA to enforce any policies and procedures against cheating schools, we must first ask the NCAA to police itself.  The governing body of college athletics had better have its own house in order before dropping any hammers on anyone for cheating.

Therein lies the rub ...

[MountieDawg]

Agree. However there needs to be a mechanism or a way for boosters to get REAL penalties maybe even jail time just as it it does for people within the program. Then most wouldn't do it.

Jail Time for boosters... It 99.9 percent of the world its called Goodwill, charity or helping a person out... In the NCAA its called cheating... Luckily the NCAA doesn't own any jail cells.... The NCAA makes billions to have a Barney Fife type investigating officers... They get 99 percent of their info from reporters.

[RT1941]

Tells me that those who cheat have no soul.

Are we talking about the souls of coaches/boosters/players/parents?  Or the soul of a regular old football fan/alum?  'Cause to be frankly honest I'd like to see UA win a national championship in my lifetime - hell I'd take a conference championship any ole day. 

If our folks have to bend the rules, and operate the system on the same playing field as the elite programs in order to field contenders on a consistant basis then so be it.  In fact I think it would do my soul good to experience my alma matre winning a football championship.