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The SEC

Started by Hawghiggs, October 02, 2017, 10:08:44 pm

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Hawghiggs

 What has caused the SEC to decline? Was it the college football playoff?

RebelliousHog

Quote from: Hawghiggs on October 02, 2017, 10:08:44 pm
What has caused the SEC to decline? Was it the college football playoff?

Coaches
"Some there are who are nothing else than a passage for food and augmenters of excrement and fillers of privies, because through them no other things in the world, nor any good effects are produced, since nothing but full privies results from them."<br />―Leonardo da Vinci

 

RebelliousHog

Asked and answered in another thread
"Some there are who are nothing else than a passage for food and augmenters of excrement and fillers of privies, because through them no other things in the world, nor any good effects are produced, since nothing but full privies results from them."<br />―Leonardo da Vinci

Hawghiggs

Quote from: HenduHog on October 02, 2017, 10:10:30 pm
Asked and answered in another thread

Wasn't aware of the other thread.

ShadowHawg


JaketheSnake

A rise in athletics across the nation.  Football players at the high school level are getting better.  They have better information on diets, strength training, speed training, specific speed training outside of their programs, constant camps to improve specific aspects of their games, etc. 

You cannt coach and train a kid to be DMac or 6'6 320 with quick feet... but you can do a lot with with that training.  Troy and NMST have future NFL players, Kareem Hunt was at Toledo, etc.  Athletes are catching up to the SEC.

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: JaketheSnake on October 03, 2017, 06:44:08 am
A rise in athletics across the nation.  Football players at the high school level are getting better.  They have better information on diets, strength training, speed training, specific speed training outside of their programs, constant camps to improve specific aspects of their games, etc. 

You cannt coach and train a kid to be DMac or 6'6 320 with quick feet... but you can do a lot with with that training.  Troy and NMST have future NFL players, Kareem Hunt was at Toledo, etc.  Athletes are catching up to the SEC.

You forget that small schools have always had some players go to the NFL. Also that same stuff such as nutrition, strength and such are available for bigger SEC type schools as well as those around the country. Camps have been around for a long timer as well. The rise in athletics has occurred in other sports moreso than football. Especially yuck, soccer.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

jkstock04

Sure seemed like it coincided with the college football playoff.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

jgphillips3

The downfall started when we went full retard with a 25 player hard cap.

Deep Shoat

All Gas, No Brakes!

Boss Hog in the Arkansas

Quote from: Hawghiggs on October 02, 2017, 10:08:44 pm
What has caused the SEC to decline? Was it the college football playoff?
Nick Saban, for 2 reasons.
1. Other good coaches (Mark Richt, Les Miles) began getting fired because they couldn't beat nick saban nor could they replicate sabans production.
2. This also ties into the 1st reason, coaches don't want to come to a league where they will be constantly under pressure to beat arguably the greatest college football coach of all time. Who wants to coach at a school where they can win 9 to 10 games per year and still be on the hot seat?

The SEC has become unbalanced and it is 100% on Saban
That's right, you don't want to be the man to replace the man.  You want to be the man to replace Rory Segrest.

Razorfox

Quote from: Deep Shoat on October 03, 2017, 07:14:04 am
Nick Saban

My list of contributing factors:

1) Bama dominance, i.e. Nick Saban
2) Spurrier retirement
3) Urban Meyer departure from SEC
4) Jim Harbaugh to Michigan
5) Ole Miss scandal

rhames

These things go in cycles.



Saban getting coaches fired and running the thing for that past 10 years doesn't help.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

 

jkstock04

Quote from: Razorfox on October 03, 2017, 07:20:20 am
My list of contributing factors:

1) Bama dominance, i.e. Nick Saban
2) Spurrier retirement
3) Urban Meyer departure from SEC
4) Jim Harbaugh to Michigan
5) Ole Miss scandal

Pretty good list there. The Big 10 rise from the ashes was really something. Started with Harbaugh to Michigan...and I agree had a hand in this as well.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

rhames

Quote from: Razorfox on October 03, 2017, 07:20:20 am
My list of contributing factors:

1) Bama dominance, i.e. Nick Saban
2) Spurrier retirement
3) Urban Meyer departure from SEC
4) Jim Harbaugh to Michigan
5) Ole Miss scandal



1. For sure
2.  Eh he had 2 or 3 good years at SC
3.  For sure
4. Maybe a little but not entirely
5. That really just happened. The effects,  mostly to ole miss,  have really yet to be seen. Unless you're talking about just the Hugh thing.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

hoghiker

Saban and playoffs. Saban is great for Bama. He's the poison pill for the SEC. That kind of dominance is bad for any league and the SEC is no different. Plus all the money floating around.

IronHog

Quote from: JaketheSnake on October 03, 2017, 06:44:08 am
A rise in athletics across the nation.  Football players at the high school level are getting better.  They have better information on diets, strength training, speed training, specific speed training outside of their programs, constant camps to improve specific aspects of their games, etc. 

You cannt coach and train a kid to be DMac or 6'6 320 with quick feet... but you can do a lot with with that training.  Troy and NMST have future NFL players, Kareem Hunt was at Toledo, etc.  Athletes are catching up to the SEC.


Actually the "decline" of the SEC has more to do with the rise of the spread offense and a lack of QB play within the SEC
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

rhames

How has the playoff hurt sec dominance? Not trying to be argumentative just trying to understand that angle



"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

JaketheSnake

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on October 03, 2017, 06:56:15 am
You forget that small schools have always had some players go to the NFL. Also that same stuff such as nutrition, strength and such are available for bigger SEC type schools as well as those around the country. Camps have been around for a long timer as well. The rise in athletics has occurred in other sports moreso than football. Especially yuck, soccer.
Those levels have all risen.  There are caps on how big and strong you can get.  The SEC has always grabbed what they wanted, but when there is more to go around, smaller schools benefit.

Razorfox

Quote from: rhames on October 03, 2017, 07:24:13 am

1. For sure
2.  Eh he had 2 or 3 good years at SC
3.  For sure
4. Maybe a little but not entirely
5. That really just happened. The effects,  mostly to ole miss,  have really yet to be seen. Unless you're talking about just the Hugh thing.

1. We agree then
2. He brought success to a program that used to be an easy win for others.  He made them another relevant and successful team that went to mid and high level bowls every year. 
3. We agree then
4. He's attracting talent and helping to make the Big 10 overall more successful
5. This did just happen, but Ole Miss was performing at a relatively high level and maybe getting better as long as he was there.  Now they will likely return to their more normal level. 


hoghiker

Quote from: rhames on October 03, 2017, 07:26:56 am
How has the playoff hurt sec dominance? Not trying to be argumentative just trying to understand that angle




For the same reason college basketball starts and finishes with the NCAA tournament. The feel of it is different. Winning 9 games with a bowl thrown in there for good measure doesn't do it for most fan bases anymore. Certainly not the SEC. The entire Saturday, go to a game, buy a hot dog visit with old friends angle on college football has been morphing toward  a different reality for some time. The play offs just made it official. Playoffs was a move toward NFL not so lite. No charm in that. Just win, win, win. My take.

rhames

Quote from: hoghiker on October 03, 2017, 07:42:00 am
For the same reason college basketball starts and finishes with the NCAA tournament. The feel of it is different. Winning 9 games with a bowl thrown in there for good measure doesn't do it for most fan bases anymore. Certainly not the SEC. The entire Saturday, go to a game, buy a hot dog visit with old friends angle on college football has been morphing toward  a different reality for some time. The play offs just made it official. Playoffs was a move toward NFL not so lite. No charm in that. Just win, win, win. My take.



But the ACC is still viewed as the power house for basketball, no?
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

Nashville Fan

Got to add expansion to the list. Only so many SEC caliber athletes in the south and now you have two more teams trying to pull 170 to their teams.
Pittman or Bust!

DeltaBoy

Quote from: jgphillips3 on October 03, 2017, 07:12:08 am
The downfall started when we went full retard with a 25 player hard cap.


This in the 1960's Royal had nearly 200 players on scholarship at Texas cause as he said " They will get a great education and I keep Arkansas and TAMU from getting them.

As the Cap was set and started dropping good football players wind up many times as smaller schools. If that School ie Troy gets enough of those players together with a solid coach they can nip you.
If the South should lose, it means that the history of the heroic struggle will be written by the enemy, that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers, will be impressed by all of the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors and our maimed veterans as fit subjects for derision.
-- Major General Patrick Cleburne
The Confederacy had no better soldiers
than the Arkansans--fearless, brave, and oftentimes courageous beyond
prudence. Dickart History of Kershaws Brigade.

 

hogmolar

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on October 03, 2017, 07:19:45 am
Nick Saban, for 2 reasons.
1. Other good coaches (Mark Richt, Les Miles) began getting fired because they couldn't beat nick saban nor could they replicate sabans production.
2. This also ties into the 1st reason, coaches don't want to come to a league where they will be constantly under pressure to beat arguably the greatest college football coach of all time. Who wants to coach at a school where they can win 9 to 10 games per year and still be on the hot seat?

The SEC has become unbalanced and it is 100% on Saban
This... plus I am also sure that other conferences are using this as a recruiting tool as well, "Hey 4 and 5 star recruit not going to BAMA why go the other SEC schools where you will never get a chance at the playoff because we all know Bama will be there."

MissippHog

Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on October 03, 2017, 07:19:45 am
Nick Saban, for 2 reasons.
1. Other good coaches (Mark Richt, Les Miles) began getting fired because they couldn't beat nick saban nor could they replicate sabans production.
2. This also ties into the 1st reason, coaches don't want to come to a league where they will be constantly under pressure to beat arguably the greatest college football coach of all time. Who wants to coach at a school where they can win 9 to 10 games per year and still be on the hot seat?

The SEC has become unbalanced and it is 100% on Saban
Bingo!

ChicoHog

Quote from: Razorfox on October 03, 2017, 07:20:20 am
My list of contributing factors:

1) Bama dominance, i.e. Nick Saban
2) Spurrier retirement
3) Urban Meyer departure from SEC
4) Jim Harbaugh to Michigan
5) Ole Miss scandal

1.  Absolutely the biggest reason
2.  Not so much.  They had hit another down cycle as he was not recruiting as well and Clemson was taking all the hype in SCarolina. 
3.  Not so much.  He left one year after Tebow was gone.  He realized he couldn't win without him and did not recruit well to replace him. 
4.  A little bit as the Big Ten has improved with Harbaugh and Franklin.
5.   a little bit but too recent
6.  Too many good players leaving after their junior and even red shirt soph seasons.  Helps balance out with teams full of juniors and seniors.  Look at LSU every year as they lose many juniors.  Bama does also but they have Saban. 

hoghiker

Quote from: rhames on October 03, 2017, 07:55:57 am

But the ACC is still viewed as the power house for basketball, no?
ACC is a power basketball conference for sure. No dominate player like Bama. Duke and NC have it going on but some other notables. College basketball is worse than football. Kentucky, and previously mentioned ACC schools, marriage to one and dones makes a mockery of college sports. I'll watch the Arkansas/Kentucky game but don't get too teared up about it.  I'm not sure college hoops is redeemable at this point.  Football is moving in that direction. I hope it gets redirected before its charm is all lost.

jcbville

Nick Saban and Alabama.

Hogs-n-Roses

Bama has what, 50 4 n 5 star players on the bench.  Take away the mild contenders of Georgia and Auburn, even LSU as they have near that many 4 n 5 stars. That's 8 teams getting 6+ 4 n 5 star players(if they were distributed to SEC teams). Add 6+ 4 n 5 star players to this team and then say 3 extra each year and how would we be. I say it would be a heck of a difference in us and every other team. Somehow Bama is doing now what Bryant and Darrell Royal did years ago.

hawg66


hogcard1964

Quote from: Hawghiggs on October 02, 2017, 10:08:44 pm
What has caused the SEC to decline? Was it the college football playoff?

Poor coaching within the conference.

There's 4 or 5 head coaches that will not be coaching in the conference next season and there's 2 or 3 that are heading out at the latest after the 2018 season.

jcbville

October 03, 2017, 08:53:06 am #32 Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 09:13:14 am by jcbville
Also what should concern people is that it appears Saban is attempting to build a system that will let the next coach step right in and continue to keep Bama the sole dominating force in the SEC.

hoghiker

Quote from: jcbville on October 03, 2017, 08:53:06 am
Also what should concern people is that it appears Saban is attempting to build a system that will let the next coach step right in and continue to keep Bama the sole dominating force in the SEC.
If anyone can do it, it's Saban but I'm still betting post Saban is pretty much like any other passing of a legend. Some harder times after he leaves. Nick is the keystone of that program. Pull him out and hope it doesn't fall.

Atlhogfan1

Coaching changes.
Early NFL attrition.
Just the normal cycle of programs. 
Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Atlhogfan1

I do question though how much the B1G has actually risen. 
Last year bowl record:   3-7,  SEC was 6-7 in a down year
B1G losses included: Clemson 31 - Oh St 0, Florida 30 Iowa 3, Tenn 38 Neb 24
Their 3 wins came over Western Mich, Pitt and Wash St.

In 2015-16 while the SEC went 9-2, the B1G was 5-5.
Bama beat the B1G Champs 38-0 in the playoff.
Iowa lost the Rose Bowl 45-16.
Tenn beat NW 45-6.
UGa beat Penn St.

2014-15
B1G 6-5 in bowls and finished with 3 ranked teams, the SEC was 7-5 with 6 ranked teams


As far as this season goes, Penn St has a good team with probably the best player.  Oh St has struggled offensively and lost at home to OU.  Mich's offense is not good.  Wisconsin will play one ranked team all season:  Michigan at home.  And then their opponent in the B1G CG. 

The depth of the conference has gotten better by the improvements at Penn St, Oh St and Michigan.  Wisconsin will win because they are the best set up to in their division.  Michigan St may have had its run.  Nebraska is a has been.  Iowa will just keep being Iowa - few athletes but will compete hard and win enough.  Purdue looks better but they don't have many athletes.  The rest? 

I do agree the SEC is not what it has been.  However, UGa may be heading to being that program who will step into the void left by recent NC programs Florida, LSU and AU. 


Quote from: MaconBacon on March 22, 2018, 10:30:04 amWe had a good run in the 90's and one NC and now the whole state still laments that we are a top seed program and have kids standing in line to come to good ole Arkansas.  We're just a flash in the pan boys. 

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: jkstock04 on October 03, 2017, 06:57:09 am
Sure seemed like it coincided with the college football playoff.

No cause and effect proven.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: JaketheSnake on October 03, 2017, 07:29:50 am
Those levels have all risen.  There are caps on how big and strong you can get.  The SEC has always grabbed what they wanted, but when there is more to go around, smaller schools benefit.

Good point. But caps on scholarships have been around a long time. The SEC was dominant after they came.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

Inhogswetrust

Quote from: IronHog on October 03, 2017, 07:25:53 am

Actually the "decline" of the SEC has more to do with the rise of the spread offense and a lack of QB play within the SEC

Things started to change a little bit when Spurrier and his Florida players played the Fun and Gun years ago. Several SEC schools have played more "wide open" type offenses over the years. Even Kentucky did with HM. I admit those types of offenses need a certain type of QB that we really don't have in the SEC very much right now. But it hasn't been long ago when we did have. It is ironic that the one dominant team in the SEC is not known as a wide open spread type offense. That goes to show you any type is fine with the right coaching and personnel.
If I'm going to cheer players and coaches in victory, I damn sure ought to be man enough to stand with them in defeat.

"Why some people are so drawn to the irrational is something that has always puzzled me" - James Randi

jgphillips3

To clarify my earlier comment, the 25 cap on recruits prevents power cycling players in and out of your program.  Take us for example.  Supposedly, our retention was going to be a good thing.  However, now we seem to have a roster full of guys who aren't quite good enough and only 12 new guys we can bring in.  Other teams that were used to churning 10 players a year out can't do that anymore and you are seeing the true elite recruiters like Saban stay on top while the rest of us can no longer take risks and cycle players to catch up to the Bama's of the world.

phadedhawg

I think the SEC has been a victim of it's own success.  For years there were too many good teams and bc of the Alabama factor, good coaches didn't stick around for long.   

The SEC losing it's pop is the best thing that could happen for Arkansas.  Unfortunately we don't seem to be in a position to capitalize any time soon.

ShadowHawg

The sec has declined back to the rest of college football. It's hardly lagging behind. Bama, Georgia, and Auburn are as good as any in College football.

razorhead94

The SEC EAST decline....or actually they've been bad for a while.  The West is what has carried this conference since 2008.  Three different teams from that division have won a National Championship.
"Primetime is whenever we play" - Jack Kenley 2019 OmaHogs

jkstock04

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on October 03, 2017, 10:23:28 am
No cause and effect proven.
Agreed. Just seemed to me like that was the beginning of the slide. I guess I could possibly see it as opening up more recruiting angles for other conferences/schools.
Thanks for the F Shack. 

Love,

Dirty Mike and the Boys

JaketheSnake

Quote from: Inhogswetrust on October 03, 2017, 10:25:17 am
Good point. But caps on scholarships have been around a long time. The SEC was dominant after they came.
I agree, but football training has taken huge strides over the past 10 years.  15 years ago most high schools would. Take part in just a handful of 7-on-7 summer camps.  Now most bigger schools have them each week.  Summer weight lifting has changed. Nutrition has changed, everything is getting better and athletes are buying.

Everything in this thread works toward the same goal.

swinemaster

LSU, Tennessee and Florida are a mess. 

Everyone else is just about like they are year in and year out.  Now we have 3 power teams that can compete with anyone and 1 elite team that is the favorite to win it all.  Still a pretty tough conference. 

LRHawg

There's many factors, but I think it starts and ends with Saban's coaching dominance and the expectations of other schools that want to compete against Bama.


HardCore

Poor Coaching choices & rediculous buyouts
Beware the lollipop of mediocrity; lick it once and you'll suck forever....Brian Wilson (Beach Boys)

SPAL

Quote from: HenduHog on October 02, 2017, 10:10:04 pm
Coaches

When Gus is the 2nd best coach in your league, you've got poor coaches. You're right on the money with this.

WilsonHog

 :puke:
Quote from: Boss Hog in the Arkansas on October 03, 2017, 07:19:45 am
Nick Saban, for 2 reasons.
1. Other good coaches (Mark Richt, Les Miles) began getting fired because they couldn't beat nick saban nor could they replicate sabans production.
2. This also ties into the 1st reason, coaches don't want to come to a league where they will be constantly under pressure to beat arguably the greatest college football coach of all time. Who wants to coach at a school where they can win 9 to 10 games per year and still be on the hot seat?

The SEC has become unbalanced and it is 100% on Saban

This is part of it, but there's more.

Football is king in our part of the world, and fan bases are off the chain. Coaches are a fraternity, as are their agents. Consider that Mark Richt got run off from Georgia after averaging 9.7 wins a year for 15 years. Les Miles? Shown the door at LSU after winning a national championship and averaging 9.5 wins a year for 12 years. Butch Jones has won 18 games the last two years at Tennessee, and he's a dead man walking in Knoxville.

Does that sound like a conference you would want to coach in, if you could make the same money elsewhere? Same money, more job security, no Saban. That's a no-brainer.

I listened to Finebaum today. He asked Geoff Calkins if Tennessee had a short list. Calkins said, "Yeah, of guys they aren't going to get. The way these things usually work is schools go into it thinking they're going to get Nick Saban, and they walk away with Charlie Strong." (Or Tom Herman, and they get Ed O).