Kobe

[sickboy]

I mean -- the guy just put the Lakers on his back and gutted out a 60 point game to end his career with a win. If you missed that game, it was one of the best games all season. Unbelievable way to end a legendary career. Wow.

[hogcam]

Not a Kobe fan, but got a lot of respect for him. Those last three minutes of being clutch summed up his career.  Talk about a guy with a clutch factor and champion mentality.

[Oliver]

Great game from Kobe and great way to end his career.  I can understand why people didn't like him but I'll never understand why one isn't able to respect his competitiveness and hard work. 

As a Lakers fan I think the saddest thing is that Kobe was the last remnant of proof that the Lakers were once an intelligent and well run organization. 

[sickboy]

Great game from Kobe and great way to end his career.  I can understand why people didn't like him but I'll never understand why one isn't able to respect his competitiveness and hard work. 

As a Lakers fan I think the saddest thing is that Kobe was the last remnant of proof that the Lakers were once an intelligent and well run organization. 

The Lakers will be back. They've been through the ringer with the ownership issues and as much as I like Kobe and loved watching that game tonight -- they should have traded him three years ago. They wouldn't be such a mess if they had, but I get why they did what they did. But honestly, now that Kobe is gone they can rebuild that franchise.

[Oliver]

The Lakers will be back. They've been through the ringer with the ownership issues and as much as I like Kobe and loved watching that game tonight -- they should have traded him three years ago. They wouldn't be such a mess if they had, but I get why they did what they did. But honestly, now that Kobe is gone they can rebuild that franchise.

You are correct they should have traded him years ago.  But they'd still be a huge mess right now.  Nobody with any power in that organization has any sort of direction or basketball intelligence.  When Jerry's kids decide to pass the team off to someone else, they have the potential to return again

[yraciv]

Not a Kobe fan, but got a lot of respect for him. Those last three minutes of being clutch summed up his career.  Talk about a guy with a clutch factor and champion mentality.

The Kobe clutch thing is a myth.  A huge one because people only remember the winners and he has taken a lot of late shots.  Here are a couple articles. One is a 2013 comparison to Lebron, and the other article overlaps through 2015.  Well he hasn't hit a lot since then either.
https://swishnba.com/tag/the-truth-about-kobe-in-the-clutch/

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/3/7485611/kobe-bryant-clutch-lakers-data


But a great, clutch ending tonight. It would have been a very inefficient night based on amount of shots until that late run.

[Dr. Starcs]

What a performance to get them that coveted 17th win.

[Oliver]

What a performance to get them that coveted 17th win.

As long as it doesn't save Byron Scott's job, you could use the word coveted to describe that win. 

[dsims2k3]

BEAN!

[WilsonHog]

I am not a NBA fan at all, and in fact I watched more NBA basketball last night than in the previous six months combined.

If you are a fan of sports, a fan of excellence, last night was special.

[Dr. Starcs]

50 shots

[Buff]

I am not a NBA fan at all, and in fact I watched more NBA basketball last night than in the previous six months combined.

If you are a fan of sports, a fan of excellence, last night was special.

and all the people said amen

[DeltaBoy]

Glad I recorded this game cause the old man went to bed. What a way to end a career and he finished 3rd on the all time scoring list.

[JayBell]

The Kobe clutch thing is a myth.  A huge one because people only remember the winners and he has taken a lot of late shots.  Here are a couple articles. One is a 2013 comparison to Lebron, and the other article overlaps through 2015.  Well he hasn't hit a lot since then either.
https://swishnba.com/tag/the-truth-about-kobe-in-the-clutch/

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/1/3/7485611/kobe-bryant-clutch-lakers-data


But a great, clutch ending tonight. It would have been a very inefficient night based on amount of shots until that late run.

Bingo.  When you take that many shots, you're going to hit some.  He shot 50 times against Utah.  If Curry shot 50 times he'd score 90 points.

[JayBell]

Meh, people can worship Kobe all they want.  To me, he'll always be the selfish, petulant debutante who ran off Shaq and refused to win the 2004 Finals with Malone and Payton unless he got all of the credit.

He finished his career with ONE MVP award and people want to rank him as a top 5-10 all-time player because he scored a lot of points.  There's no way.

Kobe played heroball his entire career.  He would have attempted 50 shots multiple times in his career if he knew he could get away with it like he did last night.

[Dr. Starcs]

Couldn't agree more Jay.

[311Hog]

Meh, people can worship Kobe all they want.  To me, he'll always be the selfish, petulant debutante who ran off Shaq and refused to win the 2004 Finals with Malone and Payton unless he got all of the credit.

He finished his career with ONE MVP award and people want to rank him as a top 5-10 all-time player because he scored a lot of points.  There's no way.

Kobe played heroball his entire career.  He would have attempted 50 shots multiple times in his career if he knew he could get away with it like he did last night.

pretty much this.  i recognize Kobe as one of the "greats" but man i sure like the "new" bread of NBA super star "Steph Curry" as oppose to the ultra ego driven A hole that lived and breathed heroball.  I will say one thing pretty crazy Kobe's wife still with him after all that that went down.  And i wish Kobe the best it is crazy to think we are the same age and he is retiring something i will probably never do, i wonder what he will do now.  His personality doesn't really seem to lend it self to the retired super star turn analyst schtick.

[DOGALUM]

Spectacular end to a spectacular career.   One of the last of his kind.  Ruptured achilles really changed his game.   
All the people calling him selfish...  not at all.   He gave all he had and expected others to do the same.  If you didn't.....he'd do it himself.   

Winners win. 

[JayBell]

All the people calling him selfish...  not at all.   He gave all he had and expected others to do the same.  If you didn't.....he'd do it himself.   

Winners win.

Kobe tried to do it himself when he had Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton and Karl Malone all on the same team.  I've never seen one player lose a series or championship like that, but I'll be darned if Kobe wasn't determined to show the world that he was the best player ever.  (spoiler: he wasn't)

He's selfish.  Very selfish.  Maybe the most selfish NBA player ever.  He was just very good.  That doesn't make him not selfish.

Winners do win, which is why the Lakers won with Shaq and Pau Gasol.

[DOGALUM]

Kobe tried to do it himself when he had Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton and Karl Malone all on the same team.  I've never seen one player lose a series or championship like that, but I'll be darned if Kobe wasn't determined to show the world that he was the best player ever.  (spoiler: he wasn't)

He's selfish.  Very selfish.  Maybe the most selfish NBA player ever.  He was just very good.  That doesn't make him not selfish.

Winners do win, which is why the Lakers won with Shaq and Pau Gasol.

Meh....agree to disagree.  I don't care enough about NBA basketball to get in a big argument about it.  That said...I always enjoyed watching him play.  Never stopped competing....never took a night off. 
Dr J wouldn't go so far as to say Kobe was the best ever.....but he DID say that he was as good as anyone who's ever played the game.   High praise indeed.   I think he's the best ever....but that's just me. 

[Hawgndaaz]

50 shots

last night reminded of me when Michael Strahan got the sack record.



Actually, I think the Packers fake blocking may have been a little more believable than the fake defense on Kobe last night.

[husker71]

Kobe and Jimmy Buss together killed this franchise.  Kobe refused to take a deferred payment plan to help the Lakers get some free agents.  Jimmy Buss is the worst owner in pro sports IMHO.  Bring back Jeanie and Phil and Jerry West.  Kobe is totally selfish     

[DOGALUM]

Kobe and Jimmy Buss together killed this franchise.  Kobe refused to take a deferred payment plan to help the Lakers get some free agents.  Jimmy Buss is the worst owner in pro sports IMHO.  Bring back Jeanie and Phil and Jerry West.  Kobe is totally selfish     

Total hogwash about Kobe. 

[yraciv]

Total hogwash about Kobe. 

No it's completely true. Your obvious admiration for him as your favorite player is blinding you to the truth.  People didn't want to play with him long term, and free agents haven't wanted to join the Lakers for years.  Dwight Howard tried and that was a disaster.  That is because Kobe was going to get his, and that is because Kobe was getting at least 25 million every season, which made it nearly impossible to build a competitive team around him.  It certainly wasn't because of the town of LA and the Lakers brand.  But Kobe himself didn't kill the Lakers, it's been a bunch of inept decisions by their ownership and general managers.  Phil Jackson called it quits because there was all kinds of conflicts running a team your significant other's family owns.  He said as much that he didn't have much of a relationship with Jerry or Jim.  They made a good hire in Mike Brown and then ran him out of town after a decent season.  Since then it  had been a bunch of bad decisions! Dantoni was an awful fit and Byron Scott has proven not to be a good fit, but then again he hasn't had much to work with.  Jerry Buss could run a franchise, and I don't have the same faith in his kids.

And you thinking Kobe is the greatest ever is again an obviously bias opinion.  Look at any advanced statistics and it will show he is probably closer to Top 20  than Top 5.

[Dr. Starcs]

Tim Duncan is from the same era and is the total opposite of Kobe when it comes to selfishness. 

[dsims2k3]

Haterville

[Mick Hogger]

That was a great problem to have last night with both historical games going on at once.

[McKdaddy]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15201869/kobe-bryant-glorious-ending

[sickboy]

Kobe tried to do it himself when he had Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton and Karl Malone all on the same team.  I've never seen one player lose a series or championship like that, but I'll be darned if Kobe wasn't determined to show the world that he was the best player ever.  (spoiler: he wasn't)

He's selfish.  Very selfish.  Maybe the most selfish NBA player ever.  He was just very good.  That doesn't make him not selfish.

Winners do win, which is why the Lakers won with Shaq and Pau Gasol.

Weird, because he's garnered so much respect from those guys despite being selfish. I don't understand why all those guys showed up for his last game to give the guy a hug and pat him on the back if he's the most selfish guy on the planet.

Perhaps, his competitive desire, which is unparalleled, is a turnoff to fans, but something that earns respect from people who actually know and play with him.

[McKdaddy]

Neat little walk through time....

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15188880/kobe-bryant-most-iconic-memorable-photographs

[McKdaddy]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/kobe-bryant-is-already-gone-013513861.html

[JayBell]

Weird, because he's garnered so much respect from those guys despite being selfish. I don't understand why all those guys showed up for his last game to give the guy a hug and pat him on the back if he's the most selfish guy on the planet.

Perhaps, his competitive desire, which is unparalleled, is a turnoff to fans, but something that earns respect from people who actually know and play with him.

Lol, so you think Shaq does not think Kobe was a jackass?  Have you paid attention at all in the last 15 years?  It's been 12 years, emotions cool off and it was a historic night.  That doesn't mean Kobe isn't or wasn't selfish.

His competitive desire is definitely paralleled by numerous other athletes, particularly some NBA greats.  The difference is their desire to win allowed them to change how they play and make the people around them better.  Kobe absolutely desired to win, but he desired to win on his own terms and that's why he didn't win more.

[JayBell]

Tim Duncan is from the same era and is the total opposite of Kobe when it comes to selfishness.

Somebody joked last night that they won't even announce it when Duncan retires.  He just won't show up for practice one day and that'll be it.

I've been surprised to see so many different writers and publications rank Duncan among the best NBA players.  I might actually undervalue the guy a fair bit.

[talley]

that's why he didn't win more.

he won five... I'd say that's pretty dang good...

[Oliver]

Kobe and Jimmy Buss together killed this franchise.  Kobe refused to take a deferred payment plan to help the Lakers get some free agents.  Jimmy Buss is the worst owner in pro sports IMHO.  Bring back Jeanie and Phil and Jerry West.  Kobe is totally selfish     

Kobe didn't refuse anything, he took what the stupid Buss children gave him. 

You think Tim Duncan walked into a contract meeting with the Spurs and said, "Pay me as little as you want so I can stay a Spurs player and we still have a ton of money.  You pick a number, write up the contract, and I'll sign it."

I'm sure some haters would love to romanticize the situation that way but it didn't happen that way.  No, he went and asked for a certain amount of money, maybe not as much as what Kobe got but it was certainly more than what Duncan's getting paid now.  That's how negotiations work.  You ask for an amount you know you won't get and both sides keep negotiating until both parties are happy. 

The difference between the Tim Duncan and Kobe Bryant situation was that the Spurs front office had the good sense to say, "Listen Tim, we'd love to make you a Spur for life and still have money to get other pieces to add to the team, but you are going to have to take this amount.  If you are unwilling to take this amount, then thank you so much for your tenure here and good luck in your future endeavors."  The Buss's said, "Well we don't want to give you your asking price but we want to give you something close to that because WE OWE IT TO YOU."  And you would be a complete fool to look your boss in the face and say, "No I'm not taking this money.  It's too much and I really thought you would offer me a lot less."  The Buss's should have done what the Spurs front office had done.  No other team was paying Kobe that amount of money.  The Lakers were holding ALL THE CARDS and they negotiated like they were trying to sign Curry to a contract.  The worst thing that would have happened is that Kobe would have signed with another contender for less than what the Lakers were paying him now.  That would have still been a win for the Lakers.  It's just unbelievable to this day how stupid Jerry's kids have been at running this franchise.  If you want to point a finger at who ruined this franchise, it's the Buss children and it stops there.

[husker71]

Kobe is just a more successful Carmelo in my mind.  I actually liked Kobe for many years BUT they asked him to take a deferred payment plan (according to Laker hater Bill Simmons) but would not do it.  Noticed that I said Bill Simmons is an avowed Laker hater BUT I will listen to his sources more than any of us here.  Is Kobe one of the top 10 of all time  Yes  IMHO   but like Kareem and Rick Barry and Oscar you can be great and still be an assh--le.

[Dr. Starcs]

I didnt realize Oliver was in both negotiations.

Kobe was a great player no doubt. His competitiveness is well documented. But so is his selfishness and I don't see how anyone can deny that. And I'm not necessarily talking off the court.

Tim Duncan (also a 5x champion) would be the preferred teammate by most players I'd imagine.

[Oliver]

I didnt realize Oliver was in both negotiations.

Kobe was a great player no doubt. His competitiveness is well documented. But so is his selfishness and I don't see how anyone can deny that. And I'm not necessarily talking off the court.

Tim Duncan (also a 5x champion) would be the preferred teammate by most players I'd imagine.

Well I didn't realize Dr Starcs has a psychic ability with NBA players.  But I guess you are a doctor of something.

[Dr. Starcs]

You stated something as fact, I stated something as a prediction.

Quite a difference.

Anyway, I'll let the Kobe lovers have their moment and bow out of this convo.

No hard feelings.

[Oliver]

You stated something as fact, I stated something as a prediction.

Quite a difference.

Anyway, I'll let the Kobe lovers have their moment and bow out of this convo.

No hard feelings.

Well the Kobe negotiations is a fact because Jerry's kids stated as such.  The Duncan negotiations is speculation based upon experience with negotiations. 

No hard feelings here either.  Kobe is a memory for you haters now.  Enjoy your day.

[sickboy]

Lol, so you think Shaq does not think Kobe was a jackass?  Have you paid attention at all in the last 15 years?  It's been 12 years, emotions cool off and it was a historic night.  That doesn't mean Kobe isn't or wasn't selfish.

His competitive desire is definitely paralleled by numerous other athletes, particularly some NBA greats.  The difference is their desire to win allowed them to change how they play and make the people around them better.  Kobe absolutely desired to win, but he desired to win on his own terms and that's why he didn't win more.

I've met both Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't take two seconds of having a conversation with each to see that those two are fire and ice. They couldn't be more different human begins. So, yeah -- I'm not surprised they butted heads when they were in their prime. Having said that, I know Shaq respected the guy enough to show up to his final game and sing his praises. I know he thinks Kobe is the best Laker of all time. I know Shaq's ego was just as big as Kobe's and it takes two to tango.

My only point, is that as selfish a human being as everyone makes Kobe out to be... he sure has a lot of teammates going out of their way to talk about how much of a god he was. I couldn't care less about Kobe, one way or the other. I'm not a Laker fan. I just respect the hell out of his drive and tenacity. And people that don't like Kobe are holding onto, what, the grudge with Shaq and how that played out? Who cares? Unless you're a Lakers fan... then I get it that you were frustrated with how that team dissolved, but c'mon. You got three championships out of Kobe and Shaq together. The only other explanation is that you just don't like Kobe's personality. Which I get, but I also think that personality is what drove him to 5 NBA Championships and the respect of every one in the NBA.

And to your point that Kobe wasn't able to adapt, thus holding him back from winning more championships. Firstly, that logic presupposes that you think Kobe was capable of winning much more than five championships. If that's the case, then how could you say his competitive edge wasn't on another level? The focus and determination it takes to be a player capable of playing at that kind of level is once in a lifetime. The only player that had that same edge was Michael Jordon. Bar none. Secondly, Kobe won three championships with Shaq and then won two championships with Bynum, Gasol and Odom. I'm not a mathematician, but how did Kobe not show that he was able to mesh with different players and win championships? Because, again I'm no mathematician, but everyone of those players (Shaq, Bynum, Gasol, Odom) were all at their best when they were playing with Kobe. Hell, Derrick Fisher wouldn't have had a career if it wasn't for Kobe.

[Oliver]

I've met both Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't take two seconds of having a conversation with each to see that those two are fire and ice. They couldn't be more different human begins. So, yeah -- I'm not surprised they butted heads when they were in their prime. Having said that, I know Shaq respected the guy enough to show up to his final game and sing his praises. I know he thinks Kobe is the best Laker of all time. I know Shaq's ego was just as big as Kobe's and it takes two to tango.

My only point, is that as selfish a human being as everyone makes Kobe out to be... he sure has a lot of teammates going out of their way to talk about how much of a god he was. I couldn't care less about Kobe, one way or the other. I'm not a Laker fan. I just respect the hell out of his drive and tenacity. And people that don't like Kobe are holding onto, what, the grudge with Shaq and how that played out? Who cares? Unless you're a Lakers fan... then I get it that you were frustrated with how that team dissolved, but c'mon. You got three championships out of Kobe and Shaq together. The only other explanation is that you just don't like Kobe's personality. Which I get, but I also think that personality is what drove him to 5 NBA Championships and the respect of every one in the NBA.

And to your point that Kobe wasn't able to adapt, thus holding him back from winning more championships. Firstly, that logic presupposes that you think Kobe was capable of winning much more than five championships. If that's the case, then how could you say his competitive edge wasn't on another level? The focus and determination it takes to be a player capable of playing at that kind of level is once in a lifetime. The only player that had that same edge was Michael Jordon. Bar none. Secondly, Kobe won three championships with Shaq and then won two championships with Bynum, Gasol and Odom. I'm not a mathematician, but how did Kobe not show that he was able to mesh with different players and win championships? Because, again I'm no mathematician, but everyone of those players (Shaq, Bynum, Gasol, Odom) were all at their best when they were playing with Kobe. Hell, Derrick Fisher wouldn't have had a career if it wasn't for Kobe.

Word

[McKdaddy]

Neat story...

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15086829/nba-players-turn-fans-seeking-kobe-bryant-autographed-shoes


An excerpt:

Bryant's impact on opposing players can't be understated, as they regard him in almost mythical fashion and are openly discussing that topic during his final season.

"During competition in previous years, there's no time for that. Now, it's different. You get a chance to talk and catch up and give some advice and things like that."
Kobe Bryant on his postgame chats with opposing players
When asked what it was like to face Bryant, Denver Nuggets rookie Emmanuel Mudiay recently remarked, "I almost cried."

When asked a similar question Sunday, Washington Wizards guard John Wall replied, "I'm glad my mom was here to see it."

Similar comments have laced through the season, underscoring why so many players vie for a piece of signed memorabilia from Bryant after games.

And if they don't catch Bryant in the locker room or training room, many athletes simply stand in nearby hallways that swell with fans and others hoping for a photograph, autograph, or even a few words with Bryant.

[McKdaddy]

Another I enjoyed:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/kobe-bryant-lakers-retirement-teammate-tributes/

[Oliver]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/kobe-haters-are-stuck-in-2008/

[sickboy]

Another I enjoyed:

http://www.theplayerstribune.com/kobe-bryant-lakers-retirement-teammate-tributes/

"In terms of pure competitiveness, it's Jordan 1A and Kobe 1B. I played with both guys and I can tell you that for certain." - Horace Grant.

[JayBell]

I've met both Kobe and Shaq. It doesn't take two seconds of having a conversation with each to see that those two are fire and ice. They couldn't be more different human begins. So, yeah -- I'm not surprised they butted heads when they were in their prime. Having said that, I know Shaq respected the guy enough to show up to his final game and sing his praises. I know he thinks Kobe is the best Laker of all time. I know Shaq's ego was just as big as Kobe's and it takes two to tango.

Shaq's ego was every bit as big as Kobe's, but he was never as big of a jerk.  Shaq was willing to work with LA, Phil and Kobe.  He wanted to win.  Kobe drove that wedge in a winning formula.

My only point, is that as selfish a human being as everyone makes Kobe out to be... he sure has a lot of teammates going out of their way to talk about how much of a god he was. I couldn't care less about Kobe, one way or the other. I'm not a Laker fan. I just respect the hell out of his drive and tenacity. And people that don't like Kobe are holding onto, what, the grudge with Shaq and how that played out? Who cares? Unless you're a Lakers fan... then I get it that you were frustrated with how that team dissolved, but c'mon. You got three championships out of Kobe and Shaq together. The only other explanation is that you just don't like Kobe's personality. Which I get, but I also think that personality is what drove him to 5 NBA Championships and the respect of every one in the NBA

I understand all of that.  I have no problem saying Kobe was a great player, but to me, you can't be a top 5-10 all-time player and single handedly lose your team a championship the way he did against Detroit.  You can't be a spoiled debutant and break up a dynasty because you weren't getting as much credit as you wanted.

Just like everyone you're talking about, I can respect his abilities as an athlete and very much dislike his personality.  At the highest level in sports brains matters just as much as brawn.

And to your point that Kobe wasn't able to adapt, thus holding him back from winning more championships. Firstly, that logic presupposes that you think Kobe was capable of winning much more than five championships. If that's the case, then how could you say his competitive edge wasn't on another level? The focus and determination it takes to be a player capable of playing at that kind of level is once in a lifetime. The only player that had that same edge was Michael Jordon. Bar none. Secondly, Kobe won three championships with Shaq and then won two championships with Bynum, Gasol and Odom. I'm not a mathematician, but how did Kobe not show that he was able to mesh with different players and win championships? Because, again I'm no mathematician, but everyone of those players (Shaq, Bynum, Gasol, Odom) were all at their best when they were playing with Kobe. Hell, Derrick Fisher wouldn't have had a career if it wasn't for Kobe.

I respect the hell out of Kobe for what he did around 2008-2010.  He toned his dickishness way down and became a better teammate.  Personally, I have more of an issue with what he did early in his career than later in his career.

But as has been pointed out, he was the second-best player on his first three championships.  Others, not me, have argued Gasol was more important to his second two championships than Kobe was.

[JayBell]

This is pretty much the main point any of us are making:

[LordStanleysHog]

50 shots

44% pct and they won... with that team? Why wouldn't he put up 50 shots in his last game ever? #keephating

Shaq was the most dominant big man of his generation, Jordan never played with a player like that and I think we all could agree that he and Shaq wouldn't have been great teammates.

I'm not a Kobe fan, by any means, but to be so dismissive of his accomplishments is a bit foolish.  Selfish or not, who are we to judge? He won 5 rings.

[LordStanleysHog]

and 2004? they lost to a better TEAM... that Piston's team had all 5 starters on the All-Star team and played perfect team basketball.