Looks like...

[Razorbax]

They had a very good offense, probably a great offense.  We didn't.

Do you think that might play a role in that stat?

The more telling stat would be comparing snaps their defense played.  How about looking that one up for me?  (Still lazy plus don't care.)

Thanks.

Don't care? Good thing you didn't ask or respond to my posts. Because if you would have, I would think you did care.....BTW, it is 72 snaps versus 64 for us. If you would look at one of your responses, you will see you responding to the 72 and 64.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Don't care? Good thing you didn't ask or respond to my posts. Because if you would have, I would think you did care.....BTW, it is 72 snaps versus 64 for us. If you would look at one of your responses, you will see you responding to the 72 and 64.

I cared, just not enough to look it up.  :-)

[Smokehouse]

They had a very good offense, probably a great offense.  We didn't.

Do you think that might play a role in that stat?

The more telling stat would be comparing snaps their defense played.  How about looking that one up for me?  (Still lazy plus don't care.)

Thanks.

Unless one offence can't even get a first down, it should wash out in the aggregate. Worse offense punts more, better offense scores faster.

Gus's teams have always rushed to the line quickly, haven't necessarily snapped the ball quickly unless they really think they have someone out of position.

I think HUNH defenses being poor has less to do with offensive TOP and more with the fact that most HUNH run a spread filled with speedy guys and the defense mostly practices against that.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Worse offense punts more, better offense scores faster.

Well, worst offense usually punts more, that's for sure.  And that was my point in that comment.

Gus's teams have always rushed to the line quickly, haven't necessarily snapped the ball quickly unless they really think they have someone out of position.

That's not what it's been, at least until mid way last year.  Gus has always been for running as many plays as he could, but, like I said, he started changing that and started doing what you say here a lot more.

I think HUNH defenses being poor has less to do with offensive TOP and more with the fact that most HUNH run a spread filled with speedy guys and the defense mostly practices against that.

It has to do with both. 

I've said that OU started losing their defense when they went to the HUNH/7-on-7 style offense.  Their defense forgot how to play the tough, dominate the LOS defense they'd always played.

[redeye]

This really isn't the thread for it but I hate the defense gets to tired argument.  If they do their job they are on the field for 3 plays, the other team punts, and your offense is back on the field.

How often does any defense get 3 and outs against any offense, though?  This is why it's so important that we control the trenches, because it won't be easy to stop a run-first offense that controls the LOS.  If defenses fail to create 3 and outs against us, then they'll spend some time on the field, while their offense gets cold watching. 

I haven't checked, but it seemed like most of our stalled drives came after a couple of first downs last year, until our offense tired and then we were just dead meat.  That's significant, because we were maintaining field position, keeping their offense off the field and their defense on it.  When their defense starts getting tired, they're also getting mentally tired and their offense picks up on that too, because they get tired of watching the game from the sidelines.

[Tim Harris]

How often does any defense get 3 and outs against any offense, though?  This is why it's so important that we control the trenches, because it won't be easy to stop a run-first offense that controls the LOS.  If defenses fail to create 3 and outs against us, then they'll spend some time on the field, while their offense gets cold watching. 

I haven't checked, but it seemed like most of our stalled drives came after a couple of first downs last year, until our offense tired and then we were just dead meat.  That's significant, because we were maintaining field position, keeping their offense off the field and their defense on it.  When their defense starts getting tired, they're also getting mentally tired and their offense picks up on that too, because they get tired of watching the game from the sidelines.

Even if they get a first down that is still only 6-7 plays.  The offense can do things to help them but at the end of the day it is the defenses job to get off the field.

[Tim Harris]

So you're saying all Muschamp needs to do is have his defense pile up the three and outs to stay rested.

Good plan. 

Based on everything I've been reading his defenses are going to be so good they may pile up two and outs -- teams would rather punt on third down that go against his D another down!!

;-)

They may just decide to punt it on first down.  It would be better than facing a Will Muschamp defense.

[Steef]

This really isn't the thread for it but I hate the defense gets to tired argument.  If they do their job they are on the field for 3 plays, the other team punts, and your offense is back on the field.

??

And if their own offense DOESN'T do their job, the defense can be right back out there four plays later.

High tempo games are hard on defenses. Its why they are utilized.

[redeye]

Even if they get a first down that is still only 6-7 plays.  The offense can do things to help them but at the end of the day it is the defenses job to get off the field.

6-7 plays that possession, but even if it's only 6-7 for the game, I think that makes a difference fans likely take for granted.

I used to agree with you Tim, but watching SEC games during the Petrino era changed my opinion drastically.  If you could have an offense that scored at will and a defense that never allows first downs, that would be ideal, but there are good reasons you don't see those teams.

[Tim Harris]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference but not as much as people try to make it out to be. You always hear people talking about the offense not staying out there and it wearing down the defense.    I've never heard anyone say damn our defense just got a 3 and out and our offense didn't even get to finish their Gatorade before heading back out there.

Why is that?

[ChicoHog]

Oh, they exist.  I seent 'em.

And whether you're going to NWA or S AL or Kentucky, it's a flight, either way from S FL. 

Also, there's absolutely zero reason for UK to beat us out for anyone down there.  I mean, their RB coach is going down there and beating us out for DB's.

I kind of agree with you UK should never beat us but they have the advantage of playing in the SEC east so the teams they play including UF of course are closer to Florida then the teams we play. Parents will get to see their kid play at UF twice in 4 years and also UGA.  Not much of an advantage over Arkansas but a slight one.

[redeye]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference but not as much as people try to make it out to be. You always hear people talking about the offense not staying out there and it wearing down the defense.    I've never heard anyone say damn our defense just got a 3 and out and our offense didn't even get to finish their Gatorade before heading back out there.

Why is that?

I think that's where the mental aspect comes into play.  I'd also guess the offense can do things the defense can't when they're tired, such as lengthen huddle time or run certain plays.  Regardless, I can't imagine anyone would rather have a tired defense, then a tired offense.

I've pondered that same question myself in the past and it's a good one.  I'm just giving my opinion here, but I do think it makes a difference.  I used to get tired of hearing people talk about winning the TOP battle, but now I understand why that's important, even though I'm still not stuck on the idea that it must be won.

I'm not being critical of Auburn and Muschamp, though, because I'm sure he'll improve their defense.  I think it'll be even more interesting to see what happens at A&M with Chavis.

[AubFaninArk]

Lets not go overboard here.   Ellis Johnson has fielded some very, very good defenses in his time.  He did just "forget" how to coach defense.   Muschamp is a great DC but Auburn's offensive scheme will have their defense on the field longer than traditional schemes.  The longer a defense is on the field, the more it wears down.   Not saying that they won't get better but its highly doubtful Auburn (or TAMU) will field a "GREAT" defense as long as it's current head coach is there

That is simply not true...Auburn holds the ball on average 52 seconds less than bama, 34 seconds less than Florida and 1:24 less than LSU....Clemson is proving it can be done and Auburn and A&M with Chief will further add to that.

[hawginbigd1]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference but not as much as people try to make it out to be. You always hear people talking about the offense not staying out there and it wearing down the defense.    I've never heard anyone say damn our defense just got a 3 and out and our offense didn't even get to finish their Gatorade before heading back out there.

Why is that?

Tim save a handful of coaches and programs, they are all looking for plus 8 to 10 minute edge in TOP to tire out the opponents defense and keep your own rested. The front 7 on defense runs, lifts and tugs much more than the offenses front 5 or 6. Those areas are where coaches worry about being wore down. Not sure if you watched the mizzou game but our inability to keep our defense off the field is the reason we got beat. Mizzou had not been able to sustain consistent offense until the 4th quarter, and the last 8 to 10 minutes they sliced through us like hot butter.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Clemson is proving it can be done and Auburn and A&M with Chief will further add to that.

Really??  You can see the future?

So instead of the dozens of examples of HUNH teams where their offense killed their defense, you choose to point to the ONE where it didn't.  Strong argument.

[Tim Harris]

Tim save a handful of coaches and programs, they are all looking for plus 8 to 10 minute edge in TOP to tire out the opponents defense and keep your own rested. The front 7 on defense runs, lifts and tugs much more than the offenses front 5 or 6. Those areas are where coaches worry about being wore down. Not sure if you watched the mizzou game but our inability to keep our defense off the field is the reason we got beat. Mizzou had not been able to sustain consistent offense until the 4th quarter, and the last 8 to 10 minutes they sliced through us like hot butter.

Yep watched every game and yes Mizzou did that but at the end of the day it is the defenses job to get off the field.  Get a stop and you get to go rest.

My only point I'm trying to make is it matters but not near as much as people on message boards try to say.

[AubFaninArk]

Really??  You can see the future?

So instead of the dozens of examples of HUNH teams where their offense killed their defense, you choose to point to the ONE where it didn't.  Strong argument.

As more and more teams move to a hurry up/spread offense, I think you will see several of those teams begin to focus on better defense. There is a huge myth that HUNH creates a huge delta in terms of TOP and # of plays run...but the facts don't always agree with that.  Kiffin employed HUNH 21% of the time this past year, Oklahoma played good defense, Ohio State played good defense, Clemson as mentioned.  The trend toward HUNH will also mean that HUNH teams will develop better defenses.  Maybe you will be proven right, but I think I will be...we'll check in next year.

Please point out those dozens of teams with the bad defense you spoke of...and provide the facts that it was the offense that destroyed the defense.....and not that the defense wasn't just bad regardless of the offense.

[bigdaddyhawg]

As more and more teams move to a hurry up/spread offense, I think you will see several of those teams begin to focus on better defense. There is a huge myth that HUNH creates a huge delta in terms of TOP and # of plays run...but the facts don't always agree with that.  Kiffin employed HUNH 21% of the time this past year, Oklahoma played good defense, Ohio State played good defense, Clemson as mentioned.  The trend toward HUNH will also mean that HUNH teams will develop better defenses.  Maybe you will be proven right, but I think I will be...we'll check in next year.

Please point out those dozens of teams with the bad defense you spoke of...and provide the facts that it was the offense that destroyed the defense.....and not that the defense wasn't just bad regardless of the offense.

Wishful thinking.

OU played crappy defense.  Baylor scored 48 points on OU, 45 after the first quarter!!  At Norman!!

OSU didn't run the HUNH the way Gus wants to run it.  They weren't worried about running a lot of plays.  They wanted to dominate the ball, and they did.

And I don't give a rip about TOP or any of those stats.  People can use stats however they want.  I just see the truth that HUNH offenses are defense killers.

It's been shown on the field for years now. The latest example was how Oregon's defense folded late in the NC game.  They wore down. 

You're whistling past the graveyard, and hoping it's not all true.  But I'll give you one FACT that proves what I'm saying is correct:  Your HC changed his offensive philosophy of trying to run as many plays as quickly as possible last year, and he did that because he could see it was killing his defense.  And this is the guy who WROTE THE FREAKING BOOK on the HUNH.  The HUNH was the altar at which he worshiped.  And he abandoned it (not strictly, but to a large degree).

He saw the truth you are refusing to accept.

And even doing that his defense still wore down and became a sieve as the season wore on.

[Oklahawg]

I think the HUNH has peaked in it's effectiveness.

[ARpjfan]

yes, total time of possession is similar but how many possessions did each have to achieve that total time.  It makes a difference

Very valid point.  I'm an Ohio State fan and a month or so ago I was comparing our defense this year to the 2002 defense which was regarded as spectacular, but we as fans didn't think this years was that great.  What I found was a difference in the number of possessions.  When I looked at it, this season both our offense and the opponent's offense averaged 2.3 more possessions per game.  The defense is out there more than they used to be, not in time of possession but in number.  You can only score one time on each possession, so you increase the number of chances by 2.3 per game, you will see more points.  What I found was we were allowing almost the same number of yards per play and points per play, but the added possessions made the difference.

Arkansas runs a ball control offense similar to what we used back then in the Tressel days so you should see good defensive numbers.  You hang onto the ball a lot more than than most of the offenses today, so you will limit the number of possessions by your opponents.

[bigdaddyhawg]

I think the HUNH has peaked in it's effectiveness.

I believe any HUNH with a true dual threat QB will score lots and lots of points.

The problem is they'll give up lots and lots of points.

[ARpjfan]

Tim save a handful of coaches and programs, they are all looking for plus 8 to 10 minute edge in TOP to tire out the opponents defense and keep your own rested. The front 7 on defense runs, lifts and tugs much more than the offenses front 5 or 6. Those areas are where coaches worry about being wore down. Not sure if you watched the mizzou game but our inability to keep our defense off the field is the reason we got beat. Mizzou had not been able to sustain consistent offense until the 4th quarter, and the last 8 to 10 minutes they sliced through us like hot butter.

It's the number of plays and drives more so than the time of possession, in my opinion.  I watched the Coaches Round Table version of the Ohio State Championship game the other day.  It was Mullen, Narduzzi, Mike Riley and the Vandy coach breaking down what they were seeing live during the game, Speilman was also there.  During the second half, Speilman, a former defensive player talked about the defense of Oregon getting tired, then he asked "coaches, do the offensives ever get tired."  The reply was very enlightening.  Mullen, I believe, said that they don't get as tired.  He said on every play, the defense has to go all out after the ball where the players on offense away from the ball, the lineman blocking on the other side of where the play is, don't have to work as hard.  Not saying they take the play off, but get a little more chance to not exert 100% like the defense does.

The HUNH offenses keep you going constantly.  A team can win the time of possession battle by 8 minutes over the course of a game, but if it is because they are huddling up and taking the full play clock to get the play off, they are not really tiring out the defense.

As an Ohio State fan, I think the KEY to our team this season was our Strength and Conditioning coach, Mickey Marotti.  Since Urban took over and brought him up from Florida, I have noticed a huge difference in the team.  They don't get tired.  They don't get worn out by another team.  The defense last year didn't get blown up because they were tired, it was because they couldn't tackle.  This year we tackled.  You saw it in the national title game, our defense was still going strong, actually played stronger in the 4th quarter while Oregon was tired, on offense and defense.  Our offense was the same way, there all everything defensive ends were limping off the field while we just kept going.  We were physically better than them and it showed.

Alabama was a more physical team than Oregon, but not as physical as us.  We outran them, we pushed around both of their lines in that game.  They have recruited better players than us over the years, but our guys were better physically in that game than Bama was.

The key, in my opinion, is conditioning, technique, and talent.  aTm and Auburn can play as fast as they want and they can have the greatest defensive coaches in the land, but until they get the kids conditioned to not get tired they won't stop anyone. 

[AubFaninArk]

Wishful thinking.

OU played crappy defense.  Baylor scored 48 points on OU, 45 after the first quarter!!  At Norman!!

OSU didn't run the HUNH the way Gus wants to run it.  They weren't worried about running a lot of plays.  They wanted to dominate the ball, and they did.

And I don't give a rip about TOP or any of those stats.  People can use stats however they want.  I just see the truth that HUNH offenses are defense killers.

It's been shown on the field for years now. The latest example was how Oregon's defense folded late in the NC game.  They wore down. 

You're whistling past the graveyard, and hoping it's not all true.  But I'll give you one FACT that proves what I'm saying is correct:  Your HC changed his offensive philosophy of trying to run as many plays as quickly as possible last year, and he did that because he could see it was killing his defense.  And this is the guy who WROTE THE FREAKING BOOK on the HUNH.  The HUNH was the altar at which he worshiped.  And he abandoned it (not strictly, but to a large degree).

He saw the truth you are refusing to accept.

And even doing that his defense still wore down and became a sieve as the season wore on.

Its that truth you are saying I refuse to accept that is EXACTLY what I am saying...first you say, OSU doesn't run it the way Gus wants to run it...then you say, Gus is changing his offense.  I agree...Gus is running HUNH a certain times during the game when it makes the most sense now...which is precisely what OSU runs.  That is why I say the HUNH offense, in its current state, (not the past) will begin to field good defenses.  We're really not that far from agreeing with each other...

[bigdaddyhawg]

Its that truth you are saying I refuse to accept that is EXACTLY what I am saying...first you say, OSU doesn't run it the way Gus wants to run it...then you say, Gus is changing his offense.  I agree...Gus is running HUNH a certain times during the game when it makes the most sense now...which is precisely what OSU runs.  That is why I say the HUNH offense, in its current state, (not the past) will begin to field good defenses.  We're really not that far from agreeing with each other...

My focus was the difference between how Gus WANTS to run his HUNH and how he was running it the last half of last year, and the reason he changed his thinking.

So, yes, PERHAPS Gus has strayed from the true religion, but teams that try to run as many plays as they can will struggle on defense.

As far as the future goes, IMO it'll depend on how much Gus wanders from the true HUNH.  I have no doubt though that the HUNH in his heart will constantly pull him in that direction.

I said this a year ago: if you don't mind winning your games 51-49 and 63-56 and the like, then Gus is your guy.  But you'll also lose games by 49-42 and such, games you should have won.

OU is the perfect example of the lure and the ultimate demise of the HUNH.  Until Big Game Bob gives up that HUNH crap he's going to continue to see the results they had last year.

[wildhogman]

I'm not saying it doesn't make a difference but not as much as people try to make it out to be. You always hear people talking about the offense not staying out there and it wearing down the defense.    I've never heard anyone say damn our defense just got a 3 and out and our offense didn't even get to finish their Gatorade before heading back out there.

Why is that?

Think of it like this. Fatigue is like playing on an ice field. If your offense and my defense is both exhausted then the advantage goes to the ones who know where the play is going. A tired defense with tired legs doesn't react near as quick as it did in the first qtr.

[Break & Run]

The difference with the T.O.P. with Arkansas and Auburn is that Arkansas gets In huddles and makes substitutions.

Auburn may have a similar TOP but they hurry to the line without substituting and then look to sideline for the play. Therefore, the defense can't substitute but AU still gets a normal TOP.

It sucks but it is what it is. Muschamp won't be there long.

[woodhog14]

Auburn is starting to build a solid defense down there. Muschamp is going to save Gus's job.

Gus was 2 all-time lucky plays away from having a 9 and 8 win season the last two years. Now, he's added a top DC to save his defense.

Yep. But look on the bright side, Muschamp won't be at Auburn long.

[bigdaddyhawg]

Auburn may have a similar TOP but they hurry to the line without substituting and then look to sideline for the play. Therefore, the defense can't substitute but AU still gets a normal TOP.

Even with this "modified HUNH" they still run a play about 10 seconds faster per play than we do.  And he doesn't always even go that slow.

So trying to portray Gus as controlling the clock is erroneous.