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From the scrimmage today

Started by Mike Irwin, March 10, 2018, 04:45:20 pm

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okrazorback

Quote from: okrazorback on March 19, 2018, 09:27:25 am
That is good. Now all we have to do is take all the other teams off our schedule and just play against ourselves in Practice games

Pig in the Pokey

Quote from: Al Boarland on March 19, 2018, 12:35:56 pm
I recall a few skeptical of the hire. I know there are a few skeptical of the current hire.
I said, "we'll never out alabama Alabama".

Weird how some are still skeptical of the new hire. It feels much more like the Petrino hire to me, with an even better defense.
You must be on one if you think i aint on one! ¥420¥   «roastin da bomb in fayettenam» Purspirit Gang

 

Al Boarland

Quote from: Pig in the Pokey on March 19, 2018, 12:39:38 pm
I said, "we'll never out alabama Alabama".

Weird how some are still skeptical of the new hire. It feels much more like the Petrino hire to me, with an even better defense.

It's not weird at all if you don't make assumptions like the defense will be even better.  We hired a DC who's numbers headed in the wrong direction about the same time the spread became prevalent in the SEC.  Some will say it was a culture issue at A&M.  I know that's how the Chief framed it.  I guess we'll see, but there is merit to skepticism, IMO.

rhames

Quote from: Pig in the Pokey on March 19, 2018, 12:39:38 pm
I said, "we'll never out alabama Alabama".

Weird how some are still skeptical of the new hire. It feels much more like the Petrino hire to me, with an even better defense.


Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas. 
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

Snout team

Quote from: rhames on March 19, 2018, 01:05:27 pm

Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas.

Careful with that last statement.  Our last coach promised to bring us something we had never had.  He delivered on that promise, just not the way we all expected.

Let's dont go down that road again
The scout team (snout team) is an important part of the team although it gets little credit.

rhames

Quote from: #hammerdown on March 19, 2018, 01:12:15 pm
Careful with that last statement.  Our last coach promised to bring us something we had never had.  He delivered on that promise, just not the way we all expected.

Let's dont go down that road again


Haha. Fair enough. I'm talking SEC Championship.
"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

waterboy

Quote from: rhames on March 19, 2018, 01:05:27 pm

Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas. 

Quote from: rhames on March 19, 2018, 01:05:27 pm

Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas. 

Our last coach took care of one of the things we never had. There only one way to go now.
That's up baby!!

31to6

Quote from: Pig in the Pokey on March 19, 2018, 12:39:38 pm
I said, "we'll never out alabama Alabama".

Weird how some are still skeptical of the new hire. It feels much more like the Petrino hire to me, with an even better defense.
But I would have never expected us to fail to out-Bama Toledo and Coastal Carolina.

bennyl08

Quote from: Pig in the Pokey on March 19, 2018, 12:39:38 pm
I said, "we'll never out alabama Alabama".

Weird how some are still skeptical of the new hire. It feels much more like the Petrino hire to me, with an even better defense.

Petrino was a proven head coach before coming here having taken Lou to a BCS game. Morris is almost as far from a proven HC as you can get. His claim to fame is being a good coordinator and taking 3 years to return a program back to the same level it experienced in 5 of the 6 years before Morris got there. At least a third of our roster has experienced more wins as SEC athletes than Morris has as a HC.

Everybody knew what Petrino would do here. The biggest question mark with him as a HC was whether he would jump ship (or motorcycle as it turns out...). Nobody knows what Morris will do here. He's a shot in dark hire that you hope will do well, but for all anybody knows he could fall flat on his face.

Also, 2014 showed that we could out-bama bama. With the right coaching staff and players, any scheme will work. Anybody who thinks that only a certain style can succeed here or that another style can't is fooling themselves.

Petrino's offense was way closer to what we saw under Bielema than what Morris has used in the past.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

hoglady

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 02:38:46 pm
Petrino was a proven head coach before coming here having taken Lou to a BCS game. Morris is almost as far from a proven HC as you can get. His claim to fame is being a good coordinator and taking 3 years to return a program back to the same level it experienced in 5 of the 6 years before Morris got there. At least a third of our roster has experienced more wins as SEC athletes than Morris has as a HC.

Everybody knew what Petrino would do here. The biggest question mark with him as a HC was whether he would jump ship (or motorcycle as it turns out...). Nobody knows what Morris will do here. He's a shot in dark hire that you hope will do well, but for all anybody knows he could fall flat on his face.

Also, 2014 showed that we could out-bama bama. With the right coaching staff and players, any scheme will work. Anybody who thinks that only a certain style can succeed here or that another style can't is fooling themselves.

Petrino's offense was way closer to what we saw under Bielema than what Morris has used in the past.

You're right about Petrino - the thought never entered my mind he wouldn't be successful here.
The question was how long would it take him.
I didn't even worry about him leaving once the HUGE (2-way) buyout was in place.

I'm hoping Morris can just bring some of the excitement back that Petrino brought here.
Morris is a much bigger unknown than Petrino was.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

ricepig

Quote from: hoglady on March 19, 2018, 02:48:20 pm
You're right about Petrino - the thought never entered my mind he wouldn't be successful here.
The question was how long would it take him.
I didn't even worry about him leaving once the HUGE (2-way) buyout was in place.

I'm hoping Morris can just bring some of the excitement back that Petrino brought here.
Morris is a much bigger unknown than Petrino was.

Your last sentence sums it up perfectly

247Hog

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 02:38:46 pm
Petrino was a proven head coach before coming here having taken Lou to a BCS game. Morris is almost as far from a proven HC as you can get. His claim to fame is being a good coordinator and taking 3 years to return a program back to the same level it experienced in 5 of the 6 years before Morris got there. At least a third of our roster has experienced more wins as SEC athletes than Morris has as a HC.

Everybody knew what Petrino would do here. The biggest question mark with him as a HC was whether he would jump ship (or motorcycle as it turns out...). Nobody knows what Morris will do here. He's a shot in dark hire that you hope will do well, but for all anybody knows he could fall flat on his face.

Also, 2014 showed that we could out-bama bama. With the right coaching staff and players, any scheme will work. Anybody who thinks that only a certain style can succeed here or that another style can't is fooling themselves.

Petrino's offense was way closer to what we saw under Bielema than what Morris has used in the past.

Positives for Morris...he isn't the only NEW HC to the SEC this year. The conference has several which is good for us IMO. Also, i can say Morris and staff have worked harder so far at recruiting than Petrino and CBB at this point in time.
If there's one thing any of you should know as hog fans, brace yourself for disappointment and never get your hopes up.

It could be raining female body parts outside and we'd all be hit in the head with a pecker - Dmaxfan

Hogdomer

Quote from: 31to6 on March 19, 2018, 02:34:34 pm
But I would have never expected us to fail to out-Bama Toledo and Coastal Carolina.

True.  Or Texas Tech.  How about one 0 wins in conference one year and 1 miracle win in another.  Oh, and 0fer vs. Texas A&M.

 

bennyl08

Quote from: 247Hog on March 19, 2018, 02:52:13 pm
Positives for Morris...he isn't the only NEW HC to the SEC this year. The conference has several which is good for us IMO. Also, i can say Morris and staff have worked harder so far at recruiting than Petrino and CBB at this point in time.

You can say that, but you can't really back that up. Heck, Bielema logged nearly 20,000 air miles alone over 2 months recruiting in 2015.

Cons and pros for Morris

Very little coaching experience but a meteoric rise through the ranks
increased offensive performance but a massive increase in lost yardage plays
never coached in a major conference but ...
Took 3 years to get SMU back to the same level of success they had in 5 of the 6 years before he arrived, but was able to bring SMU back to win 7 games
Recruiting actually got worse under Morris at SMU, but he did recruit Watson at Clemson
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Mike Irwin

Quote from: Wooderson on March 11, 2018, 12:16:38 pm
I don't think that people dislike him, but last year he did not play well.  For having a big arm he threw a bunch of wobbly wounded duck passes.  He may have great leadership attributes, but he did not show to be a polished passer at all last year.
I disagree 100%.  When Kelley had time to throw he was impressive.  Like AA he had issues when defenders were slamming into him. Most QBs do.

Right now he's struggling a bit with the reads that go along with Morris' offense but in terms of arm strength and accuracy the only QB close to him is Jack Lindsey and he's a walk on.

nchogg

Never forget that past mistakes educate most for the future. Coach Morris may or not be one but I have a feeling he has learned from the past. He has taken on a tough job Coaching in the toughest league in college football. I'm at the age where I want to see results. Not getting any younger like old hog.

nchogg

Quote from: Mike Irwin on March 19, 2018, 03:56:11 pm
I disagree 100%.  When Kelley had time to throw he was impressive.  Like AA he had issues when defenders were slamming into him. Most QBs do.

Right now he's struggling a bit with the reads that go along with Morris' offense but in terms of arm strength and accuracy the only QB close to him is Jack Lindsey and he's a walk on.
Good statement Mike. I would laugh last year when the opposing defense would jump on his back to bring him down. He was hard to bring down.

Pudgepork

Quote from: hoglady on March 19, 2018, 02:48:20 pm
You're right about Petrino - the thought never entered my mind he wouldn't be successful here.
The question was how long would it take him.
I didn't even worry about him leaving once the HUGE (2-way) buyout was in place.

I'm hoping Morris can just bring some of the excitement back that Petrino brought here.
Morris is a much bigger unknown than Petrino was.


Petrino brought and Morris will bring excitement.   In hindsight, its easy to see that Beliema brought excrement

Hawgphat

I have no inkling as to how Chad Morris's enthusiasm will translate into producing a substantial upswing in football program fortunes.  I appreciate the enthusiastic beginning, - - along with the reported fact that the players are buying into the physical and mental overhauls with a great deal of enthusiasm and dedication.  However much this regime change and prioritization process proves to translate into overall improved player performance and W-L results, I am quietly optimistic about realizing significantly improved performance parameters THIS SEASON; - - - NOT three or four years down the road, - - - - THIS SEASON.  I don't expect a miraculous sudden turnaround in our fortunes, - - - - but I DO expect to see evidence of a steadily-graduated performance level; - - along with the materialization of a general expectation of having a viable chance at winning each and every game we play in the future.

I have not had that assurance over the course of the past two seasons, especially; but I am now expectantly hopeful of coming out of the performance nosedive.

Please don't throw rocks at CCM and staff before they even have an opportunity to prove themselves.  They are not responsible for past fiascoes.

Cinco de Hogo

First I believe that what CCM is selling to current players and future prospects is a much easier sell than what CBB was peddling.   

Second, a very large number of the fan base were either certain what CBB was peddling would fail outright or they were barely optimistic.

Third, I think that number is much much smaller with CCM.  Most of what I see is a cautious optimism towards CCM.  What I don't see is the over the top stuff we had with CBB and I like that.  Even the biggest supporter can admit he could fail.

Al Boarland

Quote from: Cinco de Hogo on March 19, 2018, 05:04:04 pm
What I don't see is the over the top stuff we had with CBB and I like that.

The Hogville cup runneth over with optimism if you were to click on a few threads.

Cinco de Hogo

Quote from: Al Boarland on March 19, 2018, 05:46:50 pm
The Hogville cup runneth over with optimism if you were to click on a few threads.

Optimism yes but I don't see the blnd love I saw with CBB.  Maybe the difference is in their resumes, a lot of people were absolutely, positively sure that CBB was gonna out Bama Bama because of what CBB had done at Wisconsin vs what Saban had done at Michigan State.  They forgot what Saban had already done in the SEC.


MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: Cinco de Hogo on March 19, 2018, 06:27:00 pm
Optimism yes but I don't see the blnd love I saw with CBB.  Maybe the difference is in their resumes, a lot of people were absolutely, positively sure that CBB was gonna out Bama Bama because of what CBB had done at Wisconsin vs what Saban had done at Michigan State.  They forgot what Saban had already done in the SEC.



Kinda like when Danny Ford was hired.
Go Hogs Go!

Al Boarland

Quote from: Cinco de Hogo on March 19, 2018, 06:27:00 pm
Optimism yes but I don't see the blnd love I saw with CBB.  Maybe the difference is in their resumes, a lot of people were absolutely, positively sure that CBB was gonna out Bama Bama because of what CBB had done at Wisconsin vs what Saban had done at Michigan State.  They forgot what Saban had already done in the SEC.

Maybe some have learned something. Maybe they were scorned by the CBB era. What do you think things will look like for the next hire if Morris doesn't work out? Probably a little more skepticism.

Give it until fall camp. The board will be fully hammered down after enough practice reports from fans that get to watch. Nothing wrong with that at all. It's part of fandom.

 

LRrazorback

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 02:38:46 pm
Petrino was a proven head coach before coming here having taken Lou to a BCS game. Morris is almost as far from a proven HC as you can get. His claim to fame is being a good coordinator and taking 3 years to return a program back to the same level it experienced in 5 of the 6 years before Morris got there. At least a third of our roster has experienced more wins as SEC athletes than Morris has as a HC.

Everybody knew what Petrino would do here. The biggest question mark with him as a HC was whether he would jump ship (or motorcycle as it turns out...). Nobody knows what Morris will do here. He's a shot in dark hire that you hope will do well, but for all anybody knows he could fall flat on his face.

Also, 2014 showed that we could out-bama bama. With the right coaching staff and players, any scheme will work. Anybody who thinks that only a certain style can succeed here or that another style can't is fooling themselves.

Petrino's offense was way closer to what we saw under Bielema than what Morris has used in the past.

Benny what was your thoughts when you heard CBB was hired?  I assume your were over the top excited?

RebHog

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 03:21:05 pm
You can say that, but you can't really back that up. Heck, Bielema logged nearly 20,000 air miles alone over 2 months in which 19,000 was finding all you can eat buffets and 1,000 recruiting uncommon folk in 2015.

Cons and pros for Morris

Very little coaching experience but a meteoric rise through the ranks
increased offensive performance but a massive increase in lost yardage plays
never coached in a major conference but ...
Took 3 years to get SMU back to the same level of success they had in 5 of the 6 years before he arrived, but was able to bring SMU back to win 7 games
Recruiting actually got worse under Morris at SMU, but he did recruit Watson at Clemson

FIFY   8) 8)

presidenthog

Quote from: LRrazorback on March 19, 2018, 06:44:52 pm
Benny what was your thoughts when you heard CBB was hired?  I assume your were over the top excited?

I'm 100% sure he was just based on bert's record for putting guys in the league.

MuskogeeHogFan

Quote from: presidenthog on March 19, 2018, 07:21:38 pm
I'm 100% sure he was just based on bert's record for putting guys in the league.

With the exception of everyone who was a fan of Petrino (no matter what he did), most everyone viewed the Bielema hire as a very good hire. The national media as well. Most folks thought he would bring his brand of player development to Arkansas and would be able to recruit better classes than he did at Wisconsin. He did recruit better classes but the overall player development didn't keep pace with what he had produced in the past in the less difficult Western Division of the Big Ten.

I doubt that anyone will ever convince me that Bielema didn't under-estimate the level of the challenge that he faced by coming to Arkansas and the SEC West. I think that without a doubt, he thought that what had been accomplished at Wisconsin, could be replicated at Arkansas. It could have been, with a lot more highly ranked players on both sides of the ball but especially on defense.

His style of offense required more highly skilled players and beefy O-lines who could impose their will on opposing defenses, even when they knew what was coming. But more so, he needed a defense that could punish and limit opposing offenses and except for one single season where the Arkansas offense underachieved, he never had that at his disposal.

I'll admit that when he was hired that I thought that he just might bring Arkansas back to being very competitive in the West year after year, but only if recruiting improved to the point that he could average higher ranked classes than we had been accustomed to and then develop players into performing a star ranking higher than they were evaluated.

He did have more players drafted into the NFL during his years here than anyone preceding him, but that means little when you can't leverage that into more wins. He did some good things with this program but somewhere in the process, he lost his way when it came to motivating the team and winning more games.

Who knows what will happen with Morris? I think he is a good man and will care about his players and he will certainly install an offense that most will find more entertaining. He also has hired a DC that should be able to improve the defense to at least some degree and they will certainly attempt to put more pressure on opposing offenses than we have in a good many years. How all of that eventually equates to winning more games, we will see.
Go Hogs Go!

bennyl08

Quote from: LRrazorback on March 19, 2018, 06:44:52 pm
Benny what was your thoughts when you heard CBB was hired?  I assume your were over the top excited?

My first thoughts were shock and surprise. Bielema was a unanimous top 5 coach in all of college football at the time. To up and leave Wisconsin and head to Arkansas was completely out of the blue. From reading the response of Wiscy fans, I knew there were some red flags, as they painted him in a similar picture to Les Miles. Further, I knew that he was working with a nearly bare cupboard with Smith, Swanson, and Hocker being the only returning playmakers and nearly every other position would be filled by players who hadn't even started a game. (Flowers grew up to be a great player but wasn't a stud coming into the 2013 season and Tevin Mitchel was a guy you heard a lot about in practice, but hadn't actually showed much on the field yet).

Thus, I was excited about the hire, but that excitement was tempered by the roster and the red flags. A statement I repeated many times that off-season was that I figured Bielema wouldn't be the type to get us back on track as quickly as some other coaches, but that he'd be better in the long run. I think he halfway came through with that, but he hit a lower than expected ceiling and lost the confidence of the team by being unable to rise past that.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Großer Kriegschwein

Quote from: MuskogeeHogFan on March 19, 2018, 07:49:24 pm
With the exception of everyone who was a fan of Petrino (no matter what he did), most everyone viewed the Bielema hire as a very good hire. The national media as well. Most folks thought he would bring his brand of player development to Arkansas and would be able to recruit better classes than he did at Wisconsin. He did recruit better classes but the overall player development didn't keep pace with what he had produced in the past in the less difficult Western Division of the Big Ten.

I doubt that anyone will ever convince me that Bielema didn't under-estimate the level of the challenge that he faced by coming to Arkansas and the SEC West. I think that without a doubt, he thought that what had been accomplished at Wisconsin, could be replicated at Arkansas. It could have been, with a lot more highly ranked players on both sides of the ball but especially on defense.

His style of offense required more highly skilled players and beefy O-lines who could impose their will on opposing defenses, even when they knew what was coming. But more so, he needed a defense that could punish and limit opposing offenses and except for one single season where the Arkansas offense underachieved, he never had that at his disposal.

I'll admit that when he was hired that I thought that he just might bring Arkansas back to being very competitive in the West year after year, but only if recruiting improved to the point that he could average higher ranked classes than we had been accustomed to and then develop players into performing a star ranking higher than they were evaluated.

He did have more players drafted into the NFL during his years here than anyone preceding him, but that means little when you can't leverage that into more wins. He did some good things with this program but somewhere in the process, he lost his way when it came to motivating the team and winning more games.

Who knows what will happen with Morris? I think he is a good man and will care about his players and he will certainly install an offense that most will find more entertaining. He also has hired a DC that should be able to improve the defense to at least some degree and they will certainly attempt to put more pressure on opposing offenses than we have in a good many years. How all of that eventually equates to winning more games, we will see.

I was on board and bought into the dumpster fire narrative as to the state of the program when he arrived. Gave him a pass on the first year, but looking back on it, he didn't deserve that pass. The mistakes that lost us games in the 1st season were present to some extent the entire time he was here. Albeit with less offense which was so glaring that it disguised other planning, execution and coaching issues that were all Bielema's responsibility and present from season 1 to season 5.

The funny thing about Bret is that he came from a defensive background and fashioned himself a defensive coach but Willy Robinson's defense very nearly outperformed any defense that Bret fielded with some "game to game" minor exceptions.
This is my non-signature signature.

LRrazorback

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 07:53:15 pm
My first thoughts were shock and surprise. Bielema was a unanimous top 5 coach in all of college football at the time. To up and leave Wisconsin and head to Arkansas was completely out of the blue. From reading the response of Wiscy fans, I knew there were some red flags, as they painted him in a similar picture to Les Miles. Further, I knew that he was working with a nearly bare cupboard with Smith, Swanson, and Hocker being the only returning playmakers and nearly every other position would be filled by players who hadn't even started a game. (Flowers grew up to be a great player but wasn't a stud coming into the 2013 season and Tevin Mitchel was a guy you heard a lot about in practice, but hadn't actually showed much on the field yet).

Thus, I was excited about the hire, but that excitement was tempered by the roster and the red flags. A statement I repeated many times that off-season was that I figured Bielema wouldn't be the type to get us back on track as quickly as some other coaches, but that he'd be better in the long run. I think he halfway came through with that, but he hit a lower than expected ceiling and lost the confidence of the team by being unable to rise past that.

So what type of coach would excite you or gain your approval?  I also feel you're downgrading your initial thoughts on CBB.

bennyl08

Quote from: LRrazorback on March 19, 2018, 07:58:58 pm
So what type of coach would excite you or gain your approval?  I also feel you're downgrading your initial thoughts on CBB.

I'm really not downplaying it. I'm sure there was probably a period of minutes up to an hour or two between researching what all Bielema had accomplished then researching why on earth he'd leave and come here that I was probably over the top excited. I was a lot more excited about his hire than I am about Morris, but I wasn't over the top excited. That's typically reserved to spending a month in the arctic or seeing Thor Ragnarok for the first time type of thing.

What type of coach would excite me or gain my approval? Those are two extremely different questions IMO. However, building a pseudo idealized (i.e. obviously the ideal would be "has won 25 national championships in a row and has been responsible for literally half the first round NFL draft picks over that same time frame" but that isn't even remotely realistic) would look something like this. First and foremost, I'd want to see success. Has the coach achieved wins? I'd want to see big wins (i.e. Fuentes I thought would be a better candidate than Norvell as he did better at Memphis than Norvell did). I'd want to see the coach actually build something. I.e. not just inherit a program already doing well a la Jimbo but be the one to actually build it themself. Petrino did that at Lou more or less. Bielema took over a generally 8-9 win program and made them a 10-11 win program but not really a true build. Morris took a team back the success it had already achieved in 5 of the 6 seasons before Morris got there. I'd want to see improved recruiting. Don't care if their classes were ranked 50th if before the coach got there they had been consistently in the 80's type of thing. Further, I want to see a coach that takes that recruiting and over-develops it, finding the 3*'s that go on to the NFL type of thing. I do want to see NFL production as well. I don't think that styles play much importance at all. A successful coach will be a successful coach regardless. That said, you look at the most successful coaches and they do tend to have one thing in common, being a guru at something in particular and being detail oriented hardasses. Meyer, Saban, Bellicheck, Petrino. However, another common theme is that while they are guru's on one side of the ball, they have to be willing to give up play calling duties to their coordinator. Time and time again, you see some guru try and be a one man show there and they almost always fail. Lastly, I want them to have at least some experience at the top. They have to know what it is like to have to recruit against the best opposing recruiters. They have to know what it is like to game plan against the best opposing game planners. Experience in the NFL certainly qualifies in the scheming and planning, but not the recruiting. For example, Morris's time at Clemson comes close, but considering he didn't recruit all that well at Clemson, hard to say.

Morris is certainly intelligent, he's an offensive guru but seems to have a lot of trust in his OC as well. He did spend some time at Clemson, though it is one of the weakest power 5 conferences out there. He has two players that are likely going to be drafted from Clemson including a top WR. He achieved success at SMU so has that box checked but didn't build it given how well June Jones had that program running for quite some time before Morris took over. Doesn't really have any big wins either. He stayed close in some big games, but that was true of Bielema as well. He actually made SMU's recruiting worse while there than they had been doing. They averaged 2 players drafted per year from 2009-2014, but haven't had a single draft pick since then. Of course, there's a couple ways to look at that. This 2018 draft is the first year that the players eligible will have been with Morris longer than the other coaches. While Morris became coach in 2015, that draftless class isn't remotely on him either. Their previous HC did basically say that he was quitting because he built the team up from nothing and was basically bored now that SMU was a perennial bowl caliber team. So, maybe his recruiting dropped off. That's the glass half full outlook. The pessmistic outlook would be that the previous HC routinely recruited and developed NFL level talent and Morris was simply unable to work with the previous regime's players, being too rigid and requiring his own with the counter to the drop in recruiting being based on 247, you don't see a drop in recruiting really until Morris himself gets there. But again, he does have a potentially first round receiver from SMU and their qb might be drafted as well, which given their 80th level recruiting, certainly suggests some positive player development. Already mentioned that he does seem to have a similar personality to guys like Meyer, Petrino, and Saban, so that's a plus. And as mentioned before, Morris does have time at Clemson but there was FSU and that's about it as far as competition.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

hoglady

I thought it was a good hire but I didn't like Bielema when he was at Wisconsin and liked him even less when got here.

Nothing to do with his coaching ability - I just didn't like him.
Inside every "older" person is a younger person wondering what the hell happened?

"Compassion for animals is intimately associated with goodness of character, and it may be confidently asserted that he who is cruel to animals cannot be a good man."
― Arthur Schopenhauer, The Basis of Morality

LRrazorback

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 08:57:17 pm
I'm really not downplaying it. I'm sure there was probably a period of minutes up to an hour or two between researching what all Bielema had accomplished then researching why on earth he'd leave and come here that I was probably over the top excited. I was a lot more excited about his hire than I am about Morris, but I wasn't over the top excited. That's typically reserved to spending a month in the arctic or seeing Thor Ragnarok for the first time type of thing.

What type of coach would excite me or gain my approval? Those are two extremely different questions IMO. However, building a pseudo idealized (i.e. obviously the ideal would be "has won 25 national championships in a row and has been responsible for literally half the first round NFL draft picks over that same time frame" but that isn't even remotely realistic) would look something like this. First and foremost, I'd want to see success. Has the coach achieved wins? I'd want to see big wins (i.e. Fuentes I thought would be a better candidate than Norvell as he did better at Memphis than Norvell did). I'd want to see the coach actually build something. I.e. not just inherit a program already doing well a la Jimbo but be the one to actually build it themself. Petrino did that at Lou more or less. Bielema took over a generally 8-9 win program and made them a 10-11 win program but not really a true build. Morris took a team back the success it had already achieved in 5 of the 6 seasons before Morris got there. I'd want to see improved recruiting. Don't care if their classes were ranked 50th if before the coach got there they had been consistently in the 80's type of thing. Further, I want to see a coach that takes that recruiting and over-develops it, finding the 3*'s that go on to the NFL type of thing. I do want to see NFL production as well. I don't think that styles play much importance at all. A successful coach will be a successful coach regardless. That said, you look at the most successful coaches and they do tend to have one thing in common, being a guru at something in particular and being detail oriented hardasses. Meyer, Saban, Bellicheck, Petrino. However, another common theme is that while they are guru's on one side of the ball, they have to be willing to give up play calling duties to their coordinator. Time and time again, you see some guru try and be a one man show there and they almost always fail. Lastly, I want them to have at least some experience at the top. They have to know what it is like to have to recruit against the best opposing recruiters. They have to know what it is like to game plan against the best opposing game planners. Experience in the NFL certainly qualifies in the scheming and planning, but not the recruiting. For example, Morris's time at Clemson comes close, but considering he didn't recruit all that well at Clemson, hard to say.

Morris is certainly intelligent, he's an offensive guru but seems to have a lot of trust in his OC as well. He did spend some time at Clemson, though it is one of the weakest power 5 conferences out there. He has two players that are likely going to be drafted from Clemson including a top WR. He achieved success at SMU so has that box checked but didn't build it given how well June Jones had that program running for quite some time before Morris took over. Doesn't really have any big wins either. He stayed close in some big games, but that was true of Bielema as well. He actually made SMU's recruiting worse while there than they had been doing. They averaged 2 players drafted per year from 2009-2014, but haven't had a single draft pick since then. Of course, there's a couple ways to look at that. This 2018 draft is the first year that the players eligible will have been with Morris longer than the other coaches. While Morris became coach in 2015, that draftless class isn't remotely on him either. Their previous HC did basically say that he was quitting because he built the team up from nothing and was basically bored now that SMU was a perennial bowl caliber team. So, maybe his recruiting dropped off. That's the glass half full outlook. The pessmistic outlook would be that the previous HC routinely recruited and developed NFL level talent and Morris was simply unable to work with the previous regime's players, being too rigid and requiring his own with the counter to the drop in recruiting being based on 247, you don't see a drop in recruiting really until Morris himself gets there. But again, he does have a potentially first round receiver from SMU and their qb might be drafted as well, which given their 80th level recruiting, certainly suggests some positive player development. Already mentioned that he does seem to have a similar personality to guys like Meyer, Petrino, and Saban, so that's a plus. And as mentioned before, Morris does have time at Clemson but there was FSU and that's about it as far as competition.

Sounds about like what I thought you would say. In your eyes then, you wouldn't have hired Nick Saban from Mich st., Bob Stoops from Fl., Dabo, and I could go on.  So, I find it odd you're so critical of the CCM hiring. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't know a good coach when you see him. CCM is big on discipline and details which is a crucial in being a successful coach.

Let me give you reasons why he will be successful here.
A coach must be exceptional at one of these three aspects of coaching.
1) recruiting- of course Nick Saban is the gold standard here, no one at AR has been exceptional at this
2) motivation- HDN was really good at this, also CBP was very good but motivated through fear
3) game management- time, down, and distance and matchups CBP was exceptional at this

Include details and discipline with these three and you will have a great coach.

Of course our experience with CCM is limited but in researching him he has a tremendous grasp of all three of these aspects plus incorporates details and discipline into his coaching style. Mark my word, he'll be successful here.

This also is the reason I said from day one CBB wouldn't be successful and was a bad fit. He's bad at virtually every aspect of coaching. Only an ignorant AD would hire him

bennyl08

Quote from: LRrazorback on March 19, 2018, 10:19:50 pm
Sounds about like what I thought you would say. In your eyes then, you wouldn't have hired Nick Saban from Mich st., Bob Stoops from Fl., Dabo, and I could go on.  So, I find it odd you're so critical of the CCM hiring. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't know a good coach when you see him. CCM is big on discipline and details which is a crucial in being a successful coach.

Let me give you reasons why he will be successful here.
A coach must be exceptional at one of these three aspects of coaching.
1) recruiting- of course Nick Saban is the gold standard here, no one at AR has been exceptional at this
2) motivation- HDN was really good at this, also CBP was very good but motivated through fear
3) game management- time, down, and distance and matchups CBP was exceptional at this

Include details and discipline with these three and you will have a great coach.

Of course our experience with CCM is limited but in researching him he has a tremendous grasp of all three of these aspects plus incorporates details and discipline into his coaching style. Mark my word, he'll be successful here.

This also is the reason I said from day one CBB wouldn't be successful and was a bad fit. He's bad at virtually every aspect of coaching. Only an ignorant AD would hire him

Did you even read my post? How you come up with some of these things is beyond me. You asked for an ideal coaching candidate and then come back and say "aha! Here's coaches who didn't check off every single box, so clearly you are a fool!" You can count on a single hand the number of coaches who do fit that criteria so yeah, no darn that most hires won't check off every one of those boxes. First, Saban from MSU-LSU actually does fit the criteria I listed as a good hire.  As for Stoops, for every "hire a promising coordinator for HC who has no experience" that worked out, I can give you 10 Will Muschamp stories where it didn't. It's a risky gamble. For every Dabo, Chip, and Bielema who was hired from within to bring the program to new heights (which each of those did) there are plenty of Helfrich's hired from within that fail.

Why do you think Chip Kelley was more sought after after his success at Oregon than before? Why was Saban more sought after after his success at LSU than before? You seem to think you know better than the countless numbers of AD's who hiring coaches is the main aspect of their job.

Also, how am I so critical of Chad Morris? I'm explicitly more positive on him than I am negative. I guess because I'm not on my knees with my mouth full of his chad that I'm a negative nancy to you?

Name a single successful HC who "excelled" at motivation and did not excel at either of the other two. Similarly, I'd completely scrap your third pillar of excellence for a coach. Give me a coach who can watch film and create great game plans, can modify those plans excellently on the fly once the game has started, and runs a crisp clean practice to make sure the players can run the schemes. That's way more important than a coach who misuses a time out and I honestly can't think of any coach that struggles with knowing what down or distance it is. Maybe gameplanning was what you were trying to get at with game management, but it didn't come across that way to me.

If you are looking for a "three simple pillars" type of thing, recruit players, develop those players, and scheme for those players. Unlike your list, you can't simply pick one of the three. If you lack any of these three, you won't have high level success. If you can develop and scheme but struggle in recruiting, you get Petrino. If you can recruit and develop but can't scheme, you get Bielema. If you can recruit and scheme but struggle to develop, you get Sumlin from A&M.

Bielma had a great record of recruiting and motivating players when we hired him. That's 2/3 of the things you think a coach only needs to have 1/3 to be amazing. Talk to his former players at wiscy and they'd take a bullet for the guy and played way over their projections. And he recruited players so well that he was one of the top NFL producing coaches out there. However, he lacked the discipline and details needed to be a great HC which didn't even make your list of what a coach needs other than an add-on at the end.

I agree that to date, Morris appears to be a detailed and discipline oriented coach. In my list of the ideal candidate (of which obviously not every hire will check every box) I made it clear that the one thing every top coach currently in the game today has in common are those details and discipline. However, I guess you are just bored in the offseason and want to create some imaginary antagonist and feigned slights to defend against.
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

Al Boarland

Quote from: LRrazorback on March 19, 2018, 10:19:50 pm
Mark my word...

This and "take it to the bank" are by far my favorite phrases before a statement that is unlikely to be accurate.

nwahogfan1

Quote from: rhames on March 19, 2018, 01:05:27 pm

Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas. 

[/quote
Quote from: rhames on March 19, 2018, 01:05:27 pm

Weird that people are skeptical? I think Morris can and will do well here (seasons with 9-10 wins), but the most games he has ever won as a head coach at the college level is 7.


I think the weird thing is expecting Morris will do something that has never been done at Arkansas. 


Your right 7 wins at SMU but a very small sample size at a very bad program.  The great thing at SMU was Morris record was trending up.  Of course SMU probable had a ceiling of 8 or 9 wins tops because of lack of being able to sign 4/5 star kids but at Arkansas I am hoping we can sign some of these 4/5 star studs and to have a higher ceiling.   It is all about the Jimmys and the Joes.     You can not out scheme teams if you do not have Studs on both sides of the line. 

rhames

Quote from: nwahogfan1 on March 20, 2018, 07:38:21 am
Your right 7 wins at SMU but a very small sample size at a very bad program.  The great thing at SMU was Morris record was trending up.  Of course SMU probable had a ceiling of 8 or 9 wins tops because of lack of being able to sign 4/5 star kids but at Arkansas I am hoping we can sign some of these 4/5 star studs and to have a higher ceiling.   It is all about the Jimmys and the Joes.     You can not out scheme teams if you do not have Studs on both sides of the line. 

But most of the schools he was competing against didn't have tons of 4 and 5 stars either. Most of his games at Arkansas will be against SEC schools with more talent than Arkansas.

My guess is Morris will recruit the level of kids that all the other coaches recruited to Arkansas. Can he maximize their talent and out scheme some folks? That will determine his success at Arkansas.

"I'm too drunk to taste this chicken"

"Can we get some waffles after we get some ass?" - Aunt Tiffany Freeman

Quote from: Hamdsome 1 on September 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pmSTHU. I get in more steps per day, at work, than you could possibly fathom.
The only down time my legs see is when seated in 1st Class.

nwahogfan1

Recruit players, Develop these players and scheme for these players.  I think the biggest thing for me in thinking Chad is a great fit for us is Chads experience in coaching HS ball.  In HS the HC must tweak his schemes every year to match his players strengths and hide the weaknesses.  In College Chad will try to recruit the best players but Crap happens and you must be fluid as a HC so he will have to change play calling game to game in order to match your talent against another teams strengths.  I am hoping what is going on right now in Chads war room is our Coaches are meetiing behind closed doors and tweaking their play calling or blocking or defensive stunts to match our talent and the talent we will be  facing.  HS coaches must do this every year and game to game because talent changes..  I am hoping we we will see some changes now in the 2nd half of games and 2nd half of the year if some key players get hurt.

GuvHog

Quote from: Großer Kriegschwein on March 19, 2018, 07:56:23 pm
I was on board and bought into the dumpster fire narrative as to the state of the program when he arrived. Gave him a pass on the first year, but looking back on it, he didn't deserve that pass. The mistakes that lost us games in the 1st season were present to some extent the entire time he was here. Albeit with less offense which was so glaring that it disguised other planning, execution and coaching issues that were all Bielema's responsibility and present from season 1 to season 5.

The funny thing about Bret is that he came from a defensive background and fashioned himself a defensive coach but Willy Robinson's defense very nearly outperformed any defense that Bret fielded with some "game to game" minor exceptions.

When Petrino was hired, there was no doubt in my mind that Arkansas had hired a coach who would return the program to national prominence and though it took a couple of years, he did just that.

When Bielema was hired, I stated that he was a good hire but unless he abandoned his antiquated Big 10 offense, he would fail, He refused to abandon it and he failed.

I'm not as optimistic with the Morris hire as I was with the Petrino hire but I feel better about Morris's chances of having success at Arkansas than I did Bielema.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

HF#1

Quote from: GuvHog on March 20, 2018, 09:02:40 am
I'm not as optimistic with the Morris hire as I was with the Petrino hire

Explain further...
"We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid."  <br /><br />Benjamin Franklin

IronHog

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 19, 2018, 07:53:15 pm
My first thoughts were shock and surprise. Bielema was a unanimous top 5 coach in all of college football at the time. To up and leave Wisconsin and head to Arkansas was completely out of the blue. From reading the response of Wiscy fans, I knew there were some red flags, as they painted him in a similar picture to Les Miles. Further, I knew that he was working with a nearly bare cupboard with Smith, Swanson, and Hocker being the only returning playmakers and nearly every other position would be filled by players who hadn't even started a game. (Flowers grew up to be a great player but wasn't a stud coming into the 2013 season and Tevin Mitchel was a guy you heard a lot about in practice, but hadn't actually showed much on the field yet).

Thus, I was excited about the hire, but that excitement was tempered by the roster and the red flags. A statement I repeated many times that off-season was that I figured Bielema wouldn't be the type to get us back on track as quickly as some other coaches, but that he'd be better in the long run. I think he halfway came through with that, but he hit a lower than expected ceiling and lost the confidence of the team by being unable to rise past that.


Just feel how I tell you to feel and you'll be way better off


Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

IronHog

I knew BP could win here.....great fit, good coach


I was doubtful B.B. could win here....bad fit from a program that beats up on the weak


Morris?  Who knows......he better find some OL and get the Warren kid though.
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

bennyl08

Quote from: IronHog on March 20, 2018, 12:10:30 pm

Just feel how I tell you to feel and you'll be way better off

If I agreed with you, then we'd both be wrong. ;)
Quote from: PorkSoda on May 05, 2016, 09:24:05 pm
damn I thought it was only a color, didn't realize it was named after a liqueur. leave it to benny to make me research the history of chartreuse

LRrazorback

Quote from: bennyl08 on March 20, 2018, 02:35:37 am
Did you even read my post? How you come up with some of these things is beyond me. You asked for an ideal coaching candidate and then come back and say "aha! Here's coaches who didn't check off every single box, so clearly you are a fool!" You can count on a single hand the number of coaches who do fit that criteria so yeah, no darn that most hires won't check off every one of those boxes. First, Saban from MSU-LSU actually does fit the criteria I listed as a good hire.  As for Stoops, for every "hire a promising coordinator for HC who has no experience" that worked out, I can give you 10 Will Muschamp stories where it didn't. It's a risky gamble. For every Dabo, Chip, and Bielema who was hired from within to bring the program to new heights (which each of those did) there are plenty of Helfrich's hired from within that fail.

Why do you think Chip Kelley was more sought after after his success at Oregon than before? Why was Saban more sought after after his success at LSU than before? You seem to think you know better than the countless numbers of AD's who hiring coaches is the main aspect of their job.

Also, how am I so critical of Chad Morris? I'm explicitly more positive on him than I am negative. I guess because I'm not on my knees with my mouth full of his chad that I'm a negative nancy to you?

Name a single successful HC who "excelled" at motivation and did not excel at either of the other two. Similarly, I'd completely scrap your third pillar of excellence for a coach. Give me a coach who can watch film and create great game plans, can modify those plans excellently on the fly once the game has started, and runs a crisp clean practice to make sure the players can run the schemes. That's way more important than a coach who misuses a time out and I honestly can't think of any coach that struggles with knowing what down or distance it is. Maybe gameplanning was what you were trying to get at with game management, but it didn't come across that way to me.

If you are looking for a "three simple pillars" type of thing, recruit players, develop those players, and scheme for those players. Unlike your list, you can't simply pick one of the three. If you lack any of these three, you won't have high level success. If you can develop and scheme but struggle in recruiting, you get Petrino. If you can recruit and develop but can't scheme, you get Bielema. If you can recruit and scheme but struggle to develop, you get Sumlin from A&M.

Bielma had a great record of recruiting and motivating players when we hired him. That's 2/3 of the things you think a coach only needs to have 1/3 to be amazing. Talk to his former players at wiscy and they'd take a bullet for the guy and played way over their projections. And he recruited players so well that he was one of the top NFL producing coaches out there. However, he lacked the discipline and details needed to be a great HC which didn't even make your list of what a coach needs other than an add-on at the end.

I agree that to date, Morris appears to be a detailed and discipline oriented coach. In my list of the ideal candidate (of which obviously not every hire will check every box) I made it clear that the one thing every top coach currently in the game today has in common are those details and discipline. However, I guess you are just bored in the offseason and want to create some imaginary antagonist and feigned slights to defend against.

Sorry sometimes over a message board things can get lost in translation.

The reason I'm picking on you is because you're the most vocal critic or most skeptical of the hire, that I've read.
The point I'm making is, you we're somewhat excited about CBB, yet critical/skeptical of CCM. Wrong on both accounts.  You take their records on face value without considering the critical aspects I mentioned in the earlier post.  Just educating those who are not understanding.

-A foundation of discipline, details, and hard work along with being exceptional at one of the three critical aspects of coaching 1) recruiting 2) game mgmt(x's and o's) or 3) motivation will always determine how successful a coach will be.
By the way CBB didn't meet hardly any of these, I'd give him details but as far as critical aspects, no way.

To your comment, player development, is important however it's primarily a mental, maturity thing that is generally achieved through motivation.

In response to your comment about an AD's decision. The whole state of AR would be very proud of my decisions on coaches, particularly football, because I understand entirely what makes a good coach, how they think, and the intangibles and qualities it takes to be successful.  If you ever have questions concerning coaches feel free to ask.

I'll tell you, the brightest young coach out there now is, Matt Campbell at ia st. He has the foundation (discipline, details, and works hard) and meets the critical aspects criteria, exceptional at Motivating. Time will tell on recruiting and game mgmt however he seems to be really good at game mgmt.