The 8-3 Defense

[Mike_e]

This defence is gaining attention against the spread.  Every offensive set has eventually been figured out by defenses, could this be the one?

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2015/3/20/8243681/the-attacking-8-3-defense-counterpoint-to-the-spread-option-offense-boise-state-BYU


"The natural response of many defensive coaches against the spread is to recruit speed and find ways to play sound defense while hoping for the offense to shoot itself in the foot or turn the ball over at some point along the way to the end zone.

The more skilled spread attacks are totally unafraid of this approach since it allows them to zero in on weaknesses, put defenders in conflict with the option, and do exactly what they practice every day to do. It's becoming less and less of a good bet that college players will be unable to sustain drives if you hole up and dare them to come after you unless you are recruiting NFL athletes at most positions."

[Atlhogfan1]

I like the aggression.  I prefer an attacking D vs a reacting one.  Give spread offenses both space and predictability and it won't be good.  Now our life in the SEC is a little different.  Mizzou is trying it and they seem to be having some success on D except they have never played LSU and only played Bama once. 

[Vantage 8 dude]

I too agree that attacking defenses are usually the best way to go after most offenses. Look, we all know the "spread", "air raid" or whatever term we want to use for a more wide open "throw it around the school yard" type of offense has gained great fanfare and yes, much success, over the past few years. And while the defenses are still trying to come to come up with the best methods of combating this style of play, we know that given time they will. Just like any arms race where one side gets an advantage over the other, given adequate time and effort they will be countered.

We seen it over the years with the wishbone, veer, West Coast, and other popular offenses that came along and took the college football scene by storm. And sure enough:  given enough time, coaching, and scheming those "insurmountable" offenses were eventually dealt with. Is the 8-3 defense the definitive answer? I have no real idea. I do, however, know that whatever defensive alignment you deploy you're still going to have to have the "horses" with speed, size, tackling and coverage skills to meet (and defeat) this more wide open style of play. It's coming...just give it a little more time.

[12247]

Wish they would call it the 38 or 38 special instead of turning around the way defenses have always been defined.  Coaches went to the wide open sets because they just didn't have enough horses to overpower their competition man on man.  Even the best defensive teams with the best coaches are still guessing.  Of course, if you have far better folks on D than the other team has on O, you usually win.  I could see where 8 standing and moving could disrupt the O but still, the O has the advantage of knowing whats planned and has the right of first real move so I believe the O still has the advantage while in the spread.  Is still comes down to smart coaching and whos got the better talent overall.

Bama just won another NC because their D line couldn't be stopped, no matter the Os scheme.  When you got a Dline that's about to kill the QB and or stop the run on every play, scheme don't matter much.  These Guys were huge, very fast, strong, smart and very well coached.  They needed very little help controlling the backfield action.  QBs with no time to find their studs usually don't play for winning teams, whatever the scheme.  BAMA just lowered the Boom with the D line.

[LZH]

Scheme and alignment take a distant back seat to smart players who can run and tackle well.

[bphi11ips]

Works against everyone but great football teams.

[Mike_e]

Works against everyone but great football teams.

I get that but have great football teams tried it?

I agree that scheme is only a part of the answer but if the other guys are in a third and one do you really want your defense to line up in a dime package?

Remember when everyone was disgusted with Willy Robinson's defense?  It was just too complicated to expect young (college) players to get right?

As if turned out he had more success with auburn and malzahn's offense than any other we've had, all things considered, and that was because our edge players didn't get pulled in on the fakes and contained the qb as I recall.

This seems to be a strength of the 38 (8-3).  To get the defense standing up and looking at what's going on to give them a little more time to not be fooled the the trickery and get where they need to be.  To still have down linemen to stop the dives and to tie up the offensive linemen to keep them from getting into the second level too quickly. 

I will also agree (strongly) that this isn't something that you'd want as a base defense.  However, as a package I think that it has merit.

Something to think about.  Anyway, it beats calling each other names over stupid stuff. 

[PORKULATOR]

We aren't fast enough.

[bphi11ips]

I get that but have great football teams tried it?

I agree that scheme is only a part of the answer but if the other guys are in a third and one do you really want your defense to line up in a dime package?

Remember when everyone was disgusted with Willy Robinson's defense?  It was just too complicated to expect young (college) players to get right?

As if turned out he had more success with auburn and malzahn's offense than any other we've had, all things considered, and that was because our edge players didn't get pulled in on the fakes and contained the qb as I recall.

This seems to be a strength of the 38 (8-3).  To get the defense standing up and looking at what's going on to give them a little more time to not be fooled the the trickery and get where they need to be.  To still have down linemen to stop the dives and to tie up the offensive linemen to keep them from getting into the second level too quickly. 

I will also agree (strongly) that this isn't something that you'd want as a base defense.  However, as a package I think that it has merit.

Something to think about.  Anyway, it beats calling each other names over stupid stuff. 

As a package maybe, but it's a complicated package that requires completely different personnel than the one required to stop SEC power football.  If football is headed for 7 on 7, which it probably is based upon what kids now want to play and fans want to watch, this is probably the future of defense.  Or it could just be a 7 defense.  No need to rush or defend the run anymore.

[Cornfed Pig]

Whenever I'm looking at the spread, I always try to get as many of my men in the box as possible.

Hoo digitty, look at the time. I'll see you boys in the morning.

[Exit Pursued by a Boar]

I make no judgments, but present an alternative viewpoint that I found.

http://fishduck.com/2014/03/the-coachs-corner-shutting-down-oregons-spread-with-the-4-3-defense/

EFBAB

[atekido]

There is no secret to it.  Have better athletes on the defense than what is on offense for the other team. 

[Mike_e]

I make no judgments, but present an alternative viewpoint that I found.

http://fishduck.com/2014/03/the-coachs-corner-shutting-down-oregons-spread-with-the-4-3-defense/

EFBAB

Great find, thank you.

I was thinking more about the 38 (8-3) [thanks 12247, I like 38 better too] and just standing the field side DE up would be a version of this.  Whether you'd reassign gaps to the other interior down linemen or not might be a decision based on personnel.

In any case defending the spread/read option has to start with keeping the QB and RB from getting to the outside in my book.  Funneling the running game into the middle of the field --so long as you can tackle-- will make for a long day to a spread/RO team and having an extra player up near the line with his head up would help this I think.

[bennyl08]

What has always messed up those fast teams is strong, disruptive DL play. You play for penetration on the DL and press on the outside. Those offenses work on timing and such plays disrupt the timing. The idea being, it doesn't matter of you end up getting beat in the secondary. You have taken control over those first two seconds of the snap. The qb can't throw it early because you threw everybody off their routes. Deep balls are almost always the hardest to complete and by the time the qb can see  a receiver who got off the jam to throw the deep ball, the DL has had time to put pressure on the qb so that becomes a very low percentage throw. Similarly with running plays. When you are playing for penetration most snaps, you aren't going to be as good at minding your gaps. So, there are going to be some big running opportunities. However, what are the odds of that gap being where the RB is planning on going? Say the run is up the middle but the DT is past the OL, if the DT makes the tackle, it's game over. Similarly, if the play is going to the right or the left, maybe an OL gets pushed back into the path the rb should follow, making him go wider or cut back. You've just thrown off their timing. If the rb goes wider around the edge, that's extra time for the LB's and secondary. If he cuts back, that's where the big hold might be, but there could also be a different DL guy who has broken loose.

[JayBell]

I'd much rather see Smith try an attacking version of an 8-3 defense than the give-them-5-10-yards-on-every-play cushion coverage he employed last year.  The only time he really went after an opposing offense was Ole Miss and they whiffed on six sacks.  There's no way that would have happened every game if Arkansas had been more aggressive.

At least half of the teams on next year's schedule are going to run a spread against Arkansas.  I just don't want to see the same reactionary approach we saw in 2015.

[JayBell]

The immediate issue for Arkansas is going to be personnel.  Despite a somewhat disappointing season for the defensive line, it's still the best unit on the defense and it's not even close.

Now, they have a bunch of good cornerbacks now and the team will have more bodies at linebacker and safety next season than previous years, but the players on the line are still far more capable.  If anything, an 8-3 or similar system would just be a change-of-pace defense Smith could mix in now and then to try to confuse the offenses.

[code red]

There is no secret to it.  Have better athletes on the defense than what is on offense for the other team. 

This.....you got to have superior talent and pretty smart to pull this off. 

[DeltaBoy]

Similar concept is found in the Old 4-4 stack.