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Emerson: Why college basketball is struggling?

Started by jbcarol, February 12, 2013, 10:13:00 am

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jbcarol

Saturday night saw the Georgia men's basketball team play yet another low-scoring and foul-marred game - which left the crowd booing the officials after the home team actually won. But the scoring, physical play and other issues aren't limited to Georgia: Scoring and attendance are down nationally, and fouls and physical play are up.

Why is the sport suddenly struggling so much? Well, it's not so sudden.

The top 10 reasons:

1. Players leaving school early...

2. Too physical play
Georgia head coach Mark Fox correctly called this a "national problem," ...

3. AAU

4. 3-Pointer

5. College Football

6. The Charge Call

7. The officiating

...
http://www.macon.com/2013/02/11/2351660/why-college-basketball-is-struggling.html
Curated SEC Infotainment and aggregated college sports updates where it just means more on Hogville.net

Germx

I agree with a lot of that.  The college game is way too physical which limits scoring

 

azhog10

Quote from: Germx on February 12, 2013, 10:16:20 am
I agree with a lot of that.  The college game is way too physical which limits scoring
What I don't get is the game is physical in the paint, but ticky tacky away from the ball. They let guys get away with murder at times down low, and then out of the wings you can't crowd a guy without an official anticipating a call. I also think that some refs anticipate fouls down low and that kills teams like us that aren't deep in those positions. Officials have started to really affect the rythm and flow of the game and it's always been said that the more physical team will win.

One thing that to me will have a great impact on basketball is reducing the shot clock. Either down to 24 like the NBA or at least to 30. Too many times you see a team play good defense for 30 plus seconds only to see that wasted by a questinable foul call. Having hte game speed up will limit the amount of "lazy" fouls and also hopefully keep the officials from baililng teams out.

Dr. Starcs

It's a fine line. If the officials call everything, teams end up with their best players on the bench during crunch time. I would love to see basketball visit the 5 foul rule and do away with it. Allow teams 2 shots and the ball for each personal foul after 5.

mbgrulz

Quote from: jbcarol on February 12, 2013, 10:13:00 am
Saturday night saw the Georgia men's basketball team play yet another low-scoring and foul-marred game - which left the crowd booing the officials after the home team actually won. But the scoring, physical play and other issues aren't limited to Georgia: Scoring and attendance are down nationally, and fouls and physical play are up.

Why is the sport suddenly struggling so much? Well, it's not so sudden.

The top 10 reasons:

1. Players leaving school early...

2. Too physical play
Georgia head coach Mark Fox correctly called this a "national problem," ...

3. AAU

4. 3-Pointer

5. College Football

6. The Charge Call

7. The officiating

...
http://www.macon.com/2013/02/11/2351660/why-college-basketball-is-struggling.html

I agree with almost all of that...

I'm not sure how much the 3 ball has hurt the game, but I wasn't around before it, so its all I know. I love the 3 point line.

I think the 1 & done culture is causing a slow death to CBB. We're seriously sitting here wondering if BJ and Marshawn are going pro...Think about that for a second...

The charge call is a cancer that needs to be cut out. Its too prevelant...It is not basketball. It puts handcuffs on great finishers. Kills off beautiful plays. I'm not saying there should be no such thing as a charge, but I think we need to change the way we call it BIGTIME.

The game is ABSOLUTELY too physical. Its football on hardwood now. The problem with the game being too physical, is that you force refs to interpret the game. "Was that hard enough for a foul, or not?"

Bottom line....To revive CBB, we HAVE to make the game more offense friendly, and keep our better players in the game for multiple years.

Average basketball fans don't want to watch a game in the 50's or 60's, and its hard to get too in to a team that has all new players each year.

kgr

All reducing the shot clock time would do would increase the number of hurried shots. 
What have we learned in 2,064 years?

"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to
work,  instead of living on public assistance."
                                                               -
Cicero   - 55 BC

So,   evidently nothing.

mbgrulz

Quote from: kgr on February 12, 2013, 12:31:15 pm
All reducing the shot clock time would do would increase the number of hurried shots. 
Yes...If you hate the way the NBA plays, then you definitely don't want less shot clock.

Talk about iso's and ball screens until you puke.

GuvHog

Quote from: jbcarol on February 12, 2013, 10:13:00 am
Saturday night saw the Georgia men's basketball team play yet another low-scoring and foul-marred game - which left the crowd booing the officials after the home team actually won. But the scoring, physical play and other issues aren't limited to Georgia: Scoring and attendance are down nationally, and fouls and physical play are up.

Why is the sport suddenly struggling so much? Well, it's not so sudden.

The top 10 reasons:

1. Players leaving school early...

2. Too physical play
Georgia head coach Mark Fox correctly called this a "national problem," ...

3. AAU

4. 3-Pointer

5. College Football

6. The Charge Call

7. The officiating

...
http://www.macon.com/2013/02/11/2351660/why-college-basketball-is-struggling.html

IMHO your #1 is by far and away the main reason College basketball is struggling. It started when they began to allow players to enter the draft right out of High School and changing to a one and done rule hasn't helped a bit. The only way to at least slow the struggling a great deal is to implement a 3 and done rule like college football has.
Bleeding Razorback Red Since Birth!!!

hogsanity

The physical play in the paint has been a problem for years.  Giving a 6th foul, or no foul out wont change that.  What will change it is 2 or 3 seasons of calling it very tight.  Just like when they wanted to get rid of the hand check.  Call it often enough and it goes away. 

As for the charge call, whats the alternative?  Let a guy just run over a defender?  Nothing aggrivates me more know that seeing some guy catch the ball 15 ft on the wing, and back his man down by continually pushing him with his backside.  You want to get to the baset, learn how to go around your man, not through him.

AAU in my opinion is the worst culprit.  In past decades, the best players spent the off season in the gym working on their game, now they spend it playing in glorified pickup games with almost no defense, solo plays on offense, and a me me me attitude that shackles offenses once they get to college and don't know how to share the ball.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

ArkansasI

The answer is money.  Money is ruining college sports.  Going to games is too expensive.  Coaches are getting paid too much - which in turn creates unreasonable expectations.

Money is the reason that No. 3 reasonates most with me.  I became discouraged at the character of the game.  Many of the men that were enjoying success coaching basketball were not admirable to me.  The game has grown a bit dirty.

AAU has had a sickening effect on recruiting.  Too many "handlers" appear to be using kids for their own gain.  Today's elite players attend college with the sole purpose of getting to the NBA in a year or two.  We all get it - there is a ton of money at stake.

My primary point being that it appears their is little allegiance to the school from the recruit.  Frankly, I assume that players see little allegiance from the school to themselves, either.  Regardless, teams are assembled by coach, with complete disregard for university.  These qualities do not endure with many fans that are more deeply invested in the university.

The same impact is becoming more true in football as well.  Though we see fewer handlers, we often question the integrity of a recruit's decision.  Even Arkansas signed kids from Hawaii to Florida this year.  While I am elated that we signed these talents, relatively few give me the warm fuzzy feeling that they love my alma mater and can't wait to be Razorbacks.

Most of us believe that the out of state players came to Arkansas for our coach.  So be it - that's why the guy is making $3M/year.  Still again, these qualities do not endure with many fans.

John Calipari made something of a documentary for ESPN discussing how he is in the player helping business.  It's funny to me that those players he helps are the ones that can do the most for his W-L record.  The statements he makes are so shallow that I have trouble watching the program.  This is not a man that makes us feel good about the state of college basketball.

Besides the above, I wonder if enlarging the court and raising the basket might make the game more interesting again.  Peace.

mbgrulz

Quote from: hogsanity on February 12, 2013, 01:20:55 pm
As for the charge call, whats the alternative?  Let a guy just run over a defender?  Nothing aggrivates me more know that seeing some guy catch the ball 15 ft on the wing, and back his man down by continually pushing him with his backside.  You want to get to the baset, learn how to go around your man, not through him.
I see what you're saying, but to me, we have too many instances of guys setting up underneath drivers and getting rewarded for VERY iffy block/charge calls.

Not saying that we shouldn't give player control fouls, but when the game ends and we have 5-6 charge calls, that's too many, and its having a negative effect on the quality of the game.

Its all about creating better situations for offense. The NFL isn't dumb, and they aren't making it hard on defenses for no reason...The common fan doesn't want to watch defense.

hogsanity

Quote from: Terry (GUVHOG) Holcomb on February 12, 2013, 01:05:38 pm
IMHO your #1 is by far and away the main reason College basketball is struggling. It started when they began to allow players to enter the draft right out of High School and changing to a one and done rule hasn't helped a bit. The only way to at least slow the struggling a great deal is to implement a 3 and done rule like college football has.


I would rather see a rule like college baseball.  You can go straight to the pros out of highschool, BUT if you go to college you are there for 3 years.  That would help to reverse the trend of the team that has one or 2 "super players" and start building complete teams again. A coach could the go out and get guys that he knew would be at a school 3 years, if he brings in a solid player or 2 in each class, by the time that first class is jrs, they are surrounded by good players. 

Now, that would mean more guys like Lebron and Garnnett, and Kobe, guys that would never play in college, but it would also mean guys that did go to school would be around long enough to build something.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

thirrdegreetusker

Quote from: hogsanity on February 12, 2013, 01:20:55 pm
AAU in my opinion is the worst culprit.  In past decades, the best players spent the off season in the gym working on their game, now they spend it playing in glorified pickup games with almost no defense, solo plays on offense, and a me me me attitude that shackles offenses once they get to college and don't know how to share the ball.

Agree.

AAU is a perversion of what youth sports should be about.


 

ArkansasI

Quote from: hogsanity on February 12, 2013, 02:06:31 pm
I would rather see a rule like college baseball.  You can go straight to the pros out of highschool, BUT if you go to college you are there for 3 years.  That would help to reverse the trend of the team that has one or 2 "super players" and start building complete teams again. A coach could the go out and get guys that he knew would be at a school 3 years, if he brings in a solid player or 2 in each class, by the time that first class is jrs, they are surrounded by good players. 

Now, that would mean more guys like Lebron and Garnnett, and Kobe, guys that would never play in college, but it would also mean guys that did go to school would be around long enough to build something.

I like what you are saying here and understand the logic.  Still, as a capitalist, I don't know how we can tell kids that they can't go pro if they are good enough - true to me in baseball as well.

hogsanity

Quote from: mbgrulz on February 12, 2013, 02:02:27 pm
I see what you're saying, but to me, we have too many instances of guys setting up underneath drivers and getting rewarded for VERY iffy block/charge calls.

Not saying that we shouldn't give player control fouls, but when the game ends and we have 5-6 charge calls, that's too many, and its having a negative effect on the quality of the game.

Its all about creating better situations for offense. The NFL isn't dumb, and they aren't making it hard on defenses for no reason...The common fan doesn't want to watch defense.


That is on the ref, if a guy moves under after the offensive player is airborn, it is a block.  If the refs are missing that call, thats an official problem not a rule problem.

Right now, to me , there is so much wrong with college bball that outside of the Hogs I dont think I have watched 2 regualr season games in the last 3 years.  Poor shooting, poor play, physical play in the paint, lack of basketball IQ, and a cheapening of the regular season have made it something I dont want to watch.

I watch the NCAAT but it is more to watch and see what "big names" will puke on themselves and to see if my 10 yr old will beat my 14 yr old in their brackets than it is to see good basketball.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

hogsanity

Quote from: ArkansasI on February 12, 2013, 02:10:31 pm
I like what you are saying here and understand the logic.  Still, as a capitalist, I don't know how we can tell kids that they can't go pro if they are good enough - true to me in baseball as well.


Individual leagues can make whatever standards for entry they want to make.  MLB has used the current high school/or 3 years very well.  It has benefitted college baseball as well, that product is leaps and bounds better than it was a decade ago ( getting rid of the hot bats helped too ). MLB benefitted by still being able to get kids right of highschool, but they now have a much better developed pool of college jrs and srs to choose from too.  Those players need less time in the minors, which means less money spent by the parent club to develop that talent. NFL with their 3 years out of HS rule has too.  College football continues to improve each year. 

College basketball is worse now than before they put in the one year rule.  Look at Ky this year.  Yes, they won it all last year, but this year they had to reload the roster, it has not worked out, 2 or 3 of the theFR will leave and they have to reload again.
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

The_Iceman

Quote from: ArkansasI on February 12, 2013, 02:10:31 pm
I like what you are saying here and understand the logic.  Still, as a capitalist, I don't know how we can tell kids that they can't go pro if they are good enough - true to me in baseball as well.

The MLB, a professional organization, is the one telling kids they can't come. The NBA and NFL also set up their eligibility requirements.

That is capitalism.

Beaverfever

I wish the NBA would institute a 3 year rule.  I don't know why they wouldn't. 

ArkansasI

Quote from: The_Iceman on February 12, 2013, 02:21:56 pm
The MLB, a professional organization, is the one telling kids they can't come. The NBA and NFL also set up their eligibility requirements.

That is capitalism.
I appreciate your statement.  It is true.  However, in my opinion capitalism does not create barriers to entry to those that are capable of competing at the highest level.

Of course, there are other costs involved in drafting young players.  But professional clubs that draft young players must see some economic benefit to their investment.  Without that opportunity, players would not get drafted and would be forced to choose their best avenue to advance.  Today, in the United States, the best avenue in baseball, football and basketball is college athletics.

Why shouldn't Kevin Garnett go straight to the NBA if the Minnesota Timberwolves view him as their best investment in talent and Kevin prefers $$$ to going to college?  It's really not about preserving college basketball.  It should be about liberty.

Besides, the five kids a year that might go straight to the NBA really don't prevent the Hogs or any other school from competing do they?

EastexHawg

It's not what has "ruined" college basketball, but I get tired of almost every game turning into the team that is trailing fouling non-stop, forcing the opponent to shoot free throws, and basically the freaking incessant timeouts and stoppages of play.

Institute an intentional foul rule and demand that the officials enforce it.  When a defender grabs the player receiving the inbounds pass within two seconds for six consecutive possessions, the fouls are obviously intentional.  I think the team that is fouled intentionally within the last two minutes should get two shots and the ball.

It's ridiculous that the team that is fouling can do so to try to gain an advantage on the opponent.  The team that is trailing in football can't intentionally commit a penalty to force the opponent to kick a field goal so they can get the ball back, score a TD, and try to catch up.

The last three minutes of a basketball game take 20-30 minutes to finish.  It's preposterous.

Danny J

Quote from: Beaverfever on February 12, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
I wish the NBA would institute a 3 year rule.  I don't know why they wouldn't.
Would be nice but they won't.

They really need to do something about the charge calls. That is one thing,as far as what is actually happening on the court, that is ruining the flow of the game and it takes away a players aggressiveness. Players have become quite good at sliding under a player who has already committed to leaving the ground. They should make it a one second rule or something along those lines.

Also, as I have said for a very long time and another poster mentioned, the contact they allow down low compared to the ticky tack stuff they call 30 feet away from the basketball is absurd. They must fix that.

mizzouman

AAU is the devil.

However, I do like the physical play.  Officiating, to me, is the problem.  It's not consistant from game to game nor from within the game itself.  If it was called the same both ways, it would help the game tremendously. 


Biggus Piggus

Shot clock is too long. Teams use 7-9 seconds just getting to midcourt. Then they work deep into the shot clock before taking a shot. Shot clock violations are more and more common.

In the SEC, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Texas A&M, Tennessee and Vanderbilt average 61-63 possessions per game. Back in the early 1990s, Arkansas averaged in the upper 70s. The game has slowed because the coaches are teaching it.

The only SEC teams playing more than 70 possessions per game are Arkansas, Ole Miss and LSU. Fewer than 40 teams in college basketball are over 70. In 2002-03, more than 120 teams were over that mark.

Possessions per game are down not solely because of teams walking up the court. Turnovers are way down as fewer teams play pressure defense. Have to wonder if more 3-point shooting means more long offensive rebounds and longer possessions.

I thought the shot clock killed the games like in the '70s and early '80s when Arkansas and Texas could play a 39-37 game. College coaches have found ways to slow down the game again. Even Florida plays slow now.
[CENSORED]!

Biggus Piggus

Quote from: Danny J (headhawg7) on February 12, 2013, 03:31:49 pm
Would be nice but they won't.

They really need to do something about the charge calls. That is one thing,as far as what is actually happening on the court, that is ruining the flow of the game and it takes away a players aggressiveness. Players have become quite good at sliding under a player who has already committed to leaving the ground. They should make it a one second rule or something along those lines.

Also, as I have said for a very long time and another poster mentioned, the contact they allow down low compared to the ticky tack stuff they call 30 feet away from the basketball is absurd. They must fix that.

There's no shortage of fouls for teams that play pressure defense. Perimeter stuff gets called like crazy. Inside 15 feet, much less is whistled.
[CENSORED]!

 

ucafreaky

College basketball is in the dumps for several factors. The first (as stated above) is money. Money is killing basketball. More and more kids see college basketball as a step to make money in the NBA, instead of an opportunity to earn an EDUCATION. The fix to this is simple. Allow those that want to go pro staight from high school the opportunity, but if they go to school, they have to stay. Yes, this comes from the NBA, however they can be petitioned or NCAA scholerships can be revised to say 2 or 3 years instead of being issued at a yearly rate. Then it is a binding agreement. Once a few kids fail to make it after going from high school to the pros, most will see the light. Secondly, the average fan has become obssesed with high scoring highlight play. That is not basketball. You can see that from And1 or the Harlem globetrotters. The key to being a good basketball team is to be the best DEFENSIVE team. It doesnt matter how much you score, as long as you can keep them from scoring more!! When a player gets fouled then by all means call it, but get either get rid of the touch fouls and let them play, or call every little foul so no one gets any advantage. Either way is good with me, I just want to see more consistancy from the officials. It shouldnt matter who the officials are or where the game is played, but it should be called the same every time. And lastly, ESPN is killing the game. They no longer talk about great teams, or show highlights of great assists, or defense. All they talk about are individuals, and dunks. They want to be able to market certain players and players brands,  which brings it all full circle to the fact that MONEY is what is killing the game of basketball, especially at the college level. Put the emphasis back on recieving an education and you will see a change in players, teams, and even fans!

tconey1

One of the things I think that is slowing the game down is the fact that coaches continually try to run "plays " instead of running an offense. My sons HS team(along with most other teams) run a play to get a 3 at the top of the key. If it is not open, they set back up and try another play.  When I played(25 yrs ago) we ran an offense and took the best shots open. If a shot is not open we just kept running until one came open.  We rarely had to stop and reset. I hate to see teams stop and start over. They even do it in practice.

Danny J

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on February 12, 2013, 03:51:54 pm
There's no shortage of fouls for teams that play pressure defense. Perimeter stuff gets called like crazy. Inside 15 feet, much less is whistled.
Agreed and I also agree about the shot clock. Should go down to somewhere between 24-29 seconds.

scruf

The college game has ZERO flow. ZEE. RO. It's awful.

Quick fix:

(1) 25 second shot clock.
(2) Change TV/Media timeouts from every 4 minutes to every 5 minutes.
(3) Take away 2 timeouts per half from the coaches.

Long-term:

(1) Enforce existing rules like 5-seconds, carrying, travelling.
(2) Clean up the paint and be consistent on perimeter calls.
(3) Train referees not to call anticipation charges and second-chance shots.

arkbadger

shorten the shot clock and take the three point line back to the NBA length.

women's basketball has a shorter shot clock than the men, think about that for a minute.
You can keep that skoal baby.

NWASooner

It's struggling because the players simply aren't very good.  You've got mid 1st round draft picks that struggle to make an NBA squad.  Whereas, in the NFL, you'll see mid to late round picks become contributing players on good teams.  That tells me the difference between college and pro football is a lot narrower than college and pro basketball.

My two cents is that AAU system is to blame for this.  A lot of these kids can't hit a simple jump shot.

hamARchy in the USA

My view is that college athletics have been in a mania.  Financial manias tend to be outgrowths of central bank easy money practices.  The Fed has been an out of control counterfeiter for decades now and that policy has been spawning easy money-induced market distortions. 

The obvious ones have been the tech stock bubble and the real estate bubble.  Speculators ran up tech stocks that weren't even making a profit; some didn't have revenue yet.  Tech stocks would always go up, right ?  The Fed's easy money and relaxed lending standards caused the real estate market to skyrocket until too many people couldn't service their debt.  The bubble popped.  They always do.

Similarly, money has been pouring into college athletics as if it's a productive enterprise that will yield a payoff.  It's nothing but entertainment, that is, an expense, for most people.  Yet athletic facilities have become palatial in a race to out do competitors.  Salaries for coaches and administrators have become crazy high.  Coaches and players have virtually no life as they must live and breathe their sport for long hours every day year round.   Fan pressure doesn't relent as everybody wants their team to be the best.

As the stock market nears the end of a mania, it grows narrower.  Money goes into fewer and fewer stocks.  The blue chips tend to be the last man standing.  That's what I see taking place now in college athletics.  The market is narrowing.  Of the two major sports college basketball enthusiasm is waning.  College football is the blue chip of sports so that's where the hot money is flowing.  Yet college football enthusiasm is now largely channeling into one conference -- the SEC, the blue chip of conferences.

How much longer till the trend reverses and fan enthusiasm turns down, no new facilities are built, ticket prices drop, and people start asking themselves why they spent so much time and money on something as unimportant as an athletic team ?  That's hard to predict but the trend indicates the mania is about to run its course.

Danny J

Quote from: hamARchy in the USA on February 12, 2013, 06:57:53 pm
My view is that college athletics have been in a mania.  Financial manias tend to be outgrowths of central bank easy money practices.  The Fed has been an out of control counterfeiter for decades now and that policy has been spawning easy money-induced market distortions. 

The obvious ones have been the tech stock bubble and the real estate bubble.  Speculators ran up tech stocks that weren't even making a profit; some didn't have revenue yet.  Tech stocks would always go up, right ?  The Fed's easy money and relaxed lending standards caused the real estate market to skyrocket until too many people couldn't service their debt.  The bubble popped.  They always do.

Similarly, money has been pouring into college athletics as if it's a productive enterprise that will yield a payoff.  It's nothing but entertainment, that is, an expense, for most people.  Yet athletic facilities have become palatial in a race to out do competitors.  Salaries for coaches and administrators have become crazy high.  Coaches and players have virtually no life as they must live and breathe their sport for long hours every day year round.   Fan pressure doesn't relent as everybody wants their team to be the best.

As the stock market nears the end of a mania, it grows narrower.  Money goes into fewer and fewer stocks.  The blue chips tend to be the last man standing.  That's what I see taking place now in college athletics.  The market is narrowing.  Of the two major sports college basketball enthusiasm is waning.  College football is the blue chip of sports so that's where the hot money is flowing.  Yet college football enthusiasm is now largely channeling into one conference -- the SEC, the blue chip of conferences.

How much longer till the trend reverses and fan enthusiasm turns down, no new facilities are built, ticket prices drop, and people start asking themselves why they spent so much time and money on something as unimportant as an athletic team ?  That's hard to predict but the trend indicates the mania is about to run its course.
LOL...don't get me started on the FED and central planning.

hamARchy in the USA

Quote from: Danny J (headhawg7) on February 12, 2013, 07:01:57 pm
LOL...don't get me started on the FED and central planning.

This is Jump Ball.  Isn't this where discussions of the Fed belong ?

+1 for recognizing the destructive nature of a central bank.

Danny J

Quote from: hamARchy in the USA on February 12, 2013, 07:35:59 pm
This is Jump Ball.  Isn't this where discussions of the Fed belong ?

+1 for recognizing the destructive nature of a central bank.
Well....I am a Ron Paul supporter if that tells you anything!  ;)

Danny J

Why not move personal fouls to 6 or more before ejection? Eliminate the one and one. 6 fouls and over shoot 2 FT's. I am sick and tired of a guy getting two quick fouls and sitting the rest of the half. Getting a quick 3rd in the second half and sitting and the same with a 4th foul. I think it hurts the game.

Kevin

Kids play too much, not enough work on their game
Pick & roll, way too much, not enough offensive flow to the game
Play faster on offense
My coaches recruit athlete try th make them bb players
Everyone plays them same. Where are the creative coaches
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

HogNdazs

I don't mind the physical play either. Basketball as always annoyed me because they can call a faul for almost nothing. The offensive player can basically cause their own foul.

But the refs really need to be more consistant, the same refs will be complete opposite game after game.

And something needs to be done about the offenses, so bland. We need to some coaches to take the some chances.

Brass Knob

Quote from: Beaverfever on February 12, 2013, 02:35:16 pm
I wish the NBA would institute a 3 year rule.  I don't know why they wouldn't. 

You would see a rash of kids head to Europe for a couple of years IMO. I agree with the sentiment. I think they should allow for a kid to leave out of high school or stay at least 2 years in college.

Kevin

do away with the one & done. let kids go to the nba out of high school if they want to.

the reason for the one & done is not for the kids. It is a publicity stunt by the NBA. they didn't like the stories of the high school kids who tried the nba and didn't make it.

a 13 year old tennis player can turn pro, let the basketball players turn pro.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22

Brass Knob

Here is what needs to be done IMO and in no particular order

1. Shorten the shot clock to 28 - 30 seconds.

2. Stop calling so many charges. Unless, it is a clear and out right charge it should be a block. Players should not be rewarded for undercutting someone in mid-air, it is dangerous and discourages scoring.

3. Make officials full time employees. Officiating at the NCAA level will not be consistent until this happens.

4. Let players go straight to the NBA from high school. If they are not good enough then they play at least 2 years of college ball.

5. Cut down the amount of timeouts. There is no flow in a college game because there is a timeout at least every 4 minutes and usually sooner due to coaches calling them. It is ridiculous.

6. This is one is a big problem that rarely gets talked about. Cut down the number of D1 basketball teams to around 150. There are just too many. Limit the number and limit the amount of games that teams are allowed to play against non-D1 teams in a given year. This increases the talent level and increases the competitiveness of every game. 

I did not address things I do not think the NCAA can control or change; AAU ball, football popularity, and so on.

I also know that he mentioned realignment. I know it is a headache right now for most people. However, in the end it will probably work out best for college sports. I would not be shocked at all in 10-15 years if there are 5 super-conferences, around 80 teams, that completely break away from the NCAA and form their own association. This will concentrate talent, money, and resources. This will ultimately increase the level of competition in all sports and help make college basketball more enjoyable to watch. 

psooie

I would have a May Madness instead of March Madness, start the season in January. OF course, problem with that is the school calendar. Agree 100% on the bubble in college sports, which is the reason all these conferences are changing trying to milk it some more. Not sure when it will pop though since the networks keep funding it and the large conference will move to keep all the money. The lower tiered conferences will be where more sensible spending occurs.

RockChalkJayhawk

Beauty shall always be in the eye of the beholder.  And this is one man's opinion:

Regarding the game itself, the one-and-done rule has certainly weakened the overall talent pool, but it's also provided opportunities for the Butlers and George Masons of the world to coexist with the powers of the sport.  I hate the rule, but the NCAA has no power to change it.  You NBA people are to thank for everything one-and-done.  Personally I'd like to see the 3-point line moved back to create more offensive spacing.  Regarding the physicality of the game, that only matters if you don't have physical players.  The shot clock is fine although I'd support it going to 30, like the women's game.

Officiating?  It is what it is and will continue to be an important part of the human error that is sport. Coaches make mistakes, certainly players make mistakes; it only stands to reason, that officials will also make their share of errors.

It would be too easy to use Kansas Basketball as a model for rebuttal, but you guys would have to wait 30 seconds for the smite-button to refresh, and of course you don't have that kind of time.  But suffice to say, there are places where this entire notion of college basketball being insignificant or struggling is pure poppycock.  As is always the case, painting with a broad brush in an effort to promote a particular viewpoint only weakens an argument.  Furthermore, if the program you care about is partially responsible for lending credence to the aforementioned 'struggle', then you have just been handed a most convenient literary rationalization.

So yeah, as someone who has coached basketball for 30 years, I freely admit my bias and I disagree with this 'struggling' perception of college basketball.  But that's just me.  It's my passion and has been my entire life.  I'm not in denial regarding some of the issues brought forth affecting the overall product, however, I am far removed from the lunk-headed football sheeple drooling over this rhetoric.  At the end of the day, none of that stuff lessens my own personal enjoyment of the sport.  Nor will it. 

http://www.wdrb.com/story/21131100/crawford-reports-of-college-basketballs-death-are-greatly-exaggerated

"What we have today is a narrative of negativity, because that's the catalyst for filling the all-day sports news cycle. And if one person says, "college basketball is in trouble," it becomes a talking point, and the brain-dead megaphone (Syracuse professor George Saunders wrote the essay, look it up) repeats it often and loud enough, the discussion in the room will eventually turn to its attention to what is blaring.

Sure, college basketball has problems. Scoring is down. The game has become too physical. It can be painful to watch. It's also still more exciting and more dramatic (though not necessarily more entertaining) than its NBA counterpart. Michigan-Indiana drew 4 million viewers for ESPN. That stacks up quite well against NBA telecasts on cable.

Yes, college hoops attendance is down. But college football attendance last season was at a 9-year low, and I didn't hear about how the game is fading. NCAA Tournament attendance is down? That's true. But take a look at bowl game attendance before throwing that stone. TV ratings? College football TV ratings were down for every network except NBC's Notre Dame broadcasts this past regular season. The BCS national championship game drew 26.4 million viewers for ESPN. Last year's Kentucky-Kansas NCAA men's basketball final drew 21 million on CBS. Make of the numbers what you will, but it's not a clear-cut contrast on which of the two has a "problem."

thirrdegreetusker

Quote from: NWASooner on February 12, 2013, 05:00:17 pm

My two cents is that AAU system is to blame for this.  A lot of these kids can't hit a simple jump shot.

Yep, it is either:
(1) Dunk
(2) Shoot a three

I see wide-open players, six feet from the basket, take the time to dribble once, take a step or two, and try to dunk, giving the D time to set there and contest. Take the open shot!

AAU is all about me, how many shots I am getting, and what coaches are here to look at ME.

jbcarol

The scoring drought in college basketball looks very bad on paper.

It looks even worse on television.

One reason often not included, perhaps because it's self-evident, is that too many coaches have taken a simple game and squeezed the life out of it. Like Virginia's Tony Bennett, whose team milks the clock and suppresses its scoring, taking the excitement out of the game.

A reputation for good defense goes hand-in-hand with this approach, but often, the best defense is simply a case of limiting possessions by the opponent.

The shot clock, we're seeing now, is no panacea. Not when the best players have one foot out the door as freshmen, and too many who stick around lack great offensive ability.

Former Virginia Tech coach Seth Greenberg, who joined ESPN, tweeted on his SethOnHoops account the other day: "Competitive players outnumber skilled players."

If a relative lack of skill - or tougher perimeter defenses - is resulting in the worst 3-point accuracy since the trey came into effect in 1986-87, why don't coaches dump the ball into their big men more often?

Sounds good, but here's the catch: Never mind that low-post play is a lost art, college officials permit so much rough stuff in the paint that it's difficult for all but the best big men to get a decent look at the basket.

Less mugging takes place in the lane in a typical NBA game. Cleaning up play under the basket would be a step toward lifting scoring averages and making the game easier on the eyes.

College basketball has survived times before when the aesthetics didn't live up the hype - hence the appearance of the shot clock in the '80s. But the difference between 30 years ago and now is that with so many entertainment options vying for a younger generation's attention, potential fans are less likely to put up with low-scoring, poorly-played games.

http://hamptonroads.com/2013/01/low-scoring-college-ball-just-isnt-fun-watch
Curated SEC Infotainment and aggregated college sports updates where it just means more on Hogville.net

nextlevel

Quote from: Biggus Piggus on February 12, 2013, 03:51:54 pm
There's no shortage of fouls for teams that play pressure defense. Perimeter stuff gets called like crazy. Inside 15 feet, much less is whistled.

I was watching a B1G game that Bilas was doing the commenting during (watching B1G basketball because that is where the best basketball is being played this year), he commented on this. His solution was to eliminate calling the hand check foul from behind the 3 point line or doing away with it all together, considering it to be incidental contact as refs are calling it as fouls in the back court or near half court disrupting the flow of the game in CBB and the NBA while allowing the big men to go full contact on the blocks with no fouls called.

He commented that during the early 90s the games had a much better flow even when hand checking was prevalent, higher scoring games, and were more enjoyable to watch. Funny to hear a Dukie say this when it was a Dukie (kryhowyioeruaewpieskie) who threw a fit over hand-checking back in 94... 
Quote from: GUVHOG on March 07, 2011, 11:26:42 am
I'll make a prediction: If BCG were to get the Tennessee job, Calipari will be fired from UK within 2 years because from the 2013-2014 season on, Tennessee will own the SEC East until BCG moves on or retires.

ell oh ell

Brass Knob

@Jayhawk

Human error is most definitely a part of the game in the way of officiating. However, there are standards for a reason and we should strive for the highest level of consistency possible. Officiating is becoming increasingly inconsistent. I am not sure what is causing it, but it is bad. The simple solution IMO is to employ the men/women full time. They will still make mistakes, but it should decrease the amount they do make.

It is also not painting with a broad stroke to say NCAA basketball is declining. That is factual. You can compare it to declining football numbers, but all that proves is that both have problems that need to be addressed. Furthermore, pulling a few exceptions (such as Kansas or Memphis) does not refute the fact that as a whole, NCAA basketball numbers are declining. I love college basketball (and the NBA), but it has some problems that need to be looked at. In saying all of that, I do agree with the premise of the article you posted. Are the problems being overstated? Sure, it is what the media does. They have a hard time reporting anything without sensationalizing it in a sad attempt to garner viewers attention.

RockChalkJayhawk

Quote from: Brass Knob on February 13, 2013, 11:45:46 am
@Jayhawk

Human error is most definitely a part of the game in the way of officiating. However, there are standards for a reason and we should strive for the highest level of consistency possible. Officiating is becoming increasingly inconsistent. I am not sure what is causing it, but it is bad. The simple solution IMO is to employ the men/women full time. They will still make mistakes, but it should decrease the amount they do make.

It is also not painting with a broad stroke to say NCAA basketball is declining. That is factual. You can compare it to declining football numbers, but all that proves is that both have problems that need to be addressed. Furthermore, pulling a few exceptions (such as Kansas or Memphis) does not refute the fact that as a whole, NCAA basketball numbers are declining. I love college basketball (and the NBA), but it has some problems that need to be looked at. In saying all of that, I do agree with the premise of the article you posted. Are the problems being overstated? Sure, it is what the media does. They have a hard time reporting anything without sensationalizing it in a sad attempt to garner viewers attention.

Good post.  I share your viewpoint regarding the officiating, but the obvious problem would be the expense.  However, per your idea in a previous post, if top powers break off into separate divisions, then this concept of full-time officials isn't a stretch at all.

I don't dispute the factual overall totals.  Attendance down, viewership, not so much.  People in this day and age can sit at home and watch games rather than incur the inconvenience and expense of actually going.

Overkill is also involved here.  You can make the argument that too many games are now televised, thus watering down the product that is eyeballed by the public.  One doesn't have to lament the poor quality, they can simply change the channel. 

It will be interesting to see what occurs to solved the issues perceived to be major.  I just don't feel they are major at all.  And by the way, your views regarding the media are very astute.

Fatty McGee

Quote from: thirrdegreetusker on February 12, 2013, 02:07:26 pm
Agree.

AAU is a perversion of what youth sports should be about.

And NCAA sports is. . . . .?
Bandit: Hey wait a minute, wait a minute. Why do you want that beer so bad?
Little Enos: Cause he's thirsty, dummy!

hogsanity

Quote from: Fatty McGee on February 13, 2013, 01:46:11 pm
And NCAA sports is. . . . .?


The problem with AAU is that it has seeped down to the lowest levels of basketball.  No one works on fundaments anymore, coaches don't because no one wants to play that way.  Go to any youth basketball from rinky dink up through 9th grade.  The fundamentals are horrible, and no one cares.  Fundamental ball is looked at as old, stidgy, boring. 
People ask me what I do in winter when there is no baseball.  I will tell you what I do. I stare out the window, and I wait for spring.

"Anything goes wrong, anything at all, your fault, my fault, nobodies fault, I'm going to blow your head off."  John Wayne in BIG JAKE

Kevin

aau is about the street agents, trying to get theirs off the kids.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.<br />James 4:7
Reject Every Kind Of Evil 1 Thessalonians 5:22