Steve Nash

[Big Hawg 21]

Last night was the 1st time in 3 years that I watched a whole NBA game.  To say I dont care for the NBA is an understatement.  Having said that, Steve Nash is one the most amazing players I've seen play in a long time.  I base this on his size and quickness. He is unguardable.   I see now why he has won, and will win this year's MVP.

[hogtheball]

He's awesome.  He makes me miss Stockton less.  I only wish he didn't look like the kid on Bad News Bears.

[Lando Calrissian]

There are A LOT of extremely talented guys who are in their prime in the NBA right now.

A few years ago, the superstars in the league were Shaq and Iverson, and while both are great, they never really were "must see" players in my mind (and I think in a lot of other people's minds, too).

There are some insanely talented guys playing right now, and I agree with the first post in the thread.  I watched that game last night and Nash is freaking incredible.

[pfrg999]

Nash is a great player out of the Basketball Powerhouse of Santa Clara... I love watching him play.. that up tempo game... Kobe is a Great player.... Nash is a great Leader... and with NO Amare....

[ThisLittlePiggie]

Last night was the 1st time in 3 years that I watched a whole NBA game. 

My record is still intact. 36 years and full speed ahead.

[Buff]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

[return2glory]

  Nash did play a great game last night, but had it not been from timely shots by Tim Thomas and Leandro Barbosa, it wouldn't have mattered. Thomas hit the three at the end of regulation that put the game into OT. If you remember, you will note that he hit the three off of a wide open Steve Nash miss.

  In the light of last night's performance, I still stand by my previous posts. Nash is a great player, but not the MVP. Kobe or Lebron should have won the MVP.

  If Phoenix is smart they will run a pick and roll with Steve Nash and whoever Kwame Brown is guarding every time they get the ball. Nash and Diaw abused Kwame and Smush Parker in pick and roll situations. I bet they scored 70% of the time. Game 7 ought to be a good one.

[boomo26]

There are A LOT of extremely talented guys who are in their prime in the NBA right now.

A few years ago, the superstars in the league were Shaq and Iverson, and while both are great, they never really were "must see" players in my mind (and I think in a lot of other people's minds, too).

There are some insanely talented guys playing right now, and I agree with the first post in the thread.  I watched that game last night and Nash is freaking incredible.

Allen Iverson is the man, that boy is 5'10" tall and scores at least 30 a game.  He has no fear, if you are 7' tall he will go against you.

Boomo

[return2glory]

There are A LOT of extremely talented guys who are in their prime in the NBA right now.

A few years ago, the superstars in the league were Shaq and Iverson, and while both are great, they never really were "must see" players in my mind (and I think in a lot of other people's minds, too).

There are some insanely talented guys playing right now, and I agree with the first post in the thread.  I watched that game last night and Nash is freaking incredible.

Allen Iverson is the man, that boy is 5'10" tall and scores at least 30 a game.  He has no fear, if you are 7' tall he will go against you.

Boomo

Agreed. AI should have won the MVP last year. Had his team made the playoffs this year, he would have garnered much more consideration for the award.

I find it disturbing that AI and Shaq can be as dominant as they have been for as long as they have been and only have 1 MVP each. To me Nash isn't even in the same class as these guys.

[Lando Calrissian]

Allen Iverson is the man, that boy is 5'10" tall and scores at least 30 a game.  He has no fear, if you are 7' tall he will go against you.

Maybe, but this new crop of stars (Nash, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Dwayne Wade, etc) are far better all-around basketball players than Iverson or Shaq ever were, which makes them much more fun to watch.

[return2glory]

Allen Iverson is the man, that boy is 5'10" tall and scores at least 30 a game.  He has no fear, if you are 7' tall he will go against you.

Maybe, but this new crop of stars (Nash, Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Dwayne Wade, etc) are far better all-around basketball players than Iverson or Shaq ever were, which makes them much more fun to watch.

I'd agree with you Lando, on all but Nash. He is great at what he does, probably the best since Stockton (although some could argue Jason Kidd). However, he is not the all around player that even Iverson is. If you compare the two you will see that Iverson averages a lot more points (bet you wouldn't have guessed that in a million years, huh), a lot more steals, and almost as many rebounds (remember the guy is 4 inches shorter). You would probably point out assists in Nash's favor, and I would obviously agree with you, but the difference isn't as great as you might think. Nash averaged 10.5 assists this season. Iverson averaged 7.4.

You are probably thinking I'm an idiot at this point, after all Nash did average 3 assists more than Iverson, but let me explain. Iverson was playing for a team who scores 99 points a game. Nash was playing for a team that averages 108.4 points per game.

The Sixers were more of a grind it out team, which doesn't lend itself to nearly as many fast break opportunities (assist opportunities). Nash has one job on that Phoenix team. Distribute the basketball. He hits big shots when the team needs them, but as far as his role on the team....It is much less than the role Iverson has to play. Iverson not only has to create opportunities for his teammates, but has to score over 32 points per game as well.

I rest my (long, and probably incredibly boring) case.

[pfrg999]

AI... has the "Thug" rep... that is why he never gets it... and Shaq never gets the Credit because of a Kobe or a Wade that is around him... A chick in Colorado Kept Kobe from getting the MVP... Much like Mary Jo kept Ted out of the White House... JMHO

[Big Hawg 21]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

How can you say Nash had a team around him and Kobe did not?  Amare is out, and they played without Bell.  Kobe had his same team that he has had for the 1st 5 games.  Nash is by far more valuable to his team than Kobe could ever dream of being.  Case in point, Kobe scores 50 and still loses..  Nash had 32 with, heres the most important stat, 13 assists. 

[return2glory]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

How can you say Nash had a team around him and Kobe did not?  Amare is out, and they played without Bell.  Kobe had his same team that he has had for the 1st 5 games.  Nash is by far more valuable to his team than Kobe could ever dream of being.  Case in point, Kobe scores 50 and still loses..  Nash had 32 with, heres the most important stat, 13 assists. 

The great thing about using stats, is that you can mold them any way you want. For example, Arkansas led the SEC in rushing last year.

Huggers would say that is a step in the right direction. Darksiders would say it's largely because no other team in their right mind runs the ball on 3rd and 15.

Kobe had 50 and they lost, Nash had 32 and 13 and they won. I could say that Kobe is by far the most valuable because without him look where LA would have been. He had to have 50 to keep it close.

By the way, Shawn Marion, Barbosa, and Tim Thomas were a heck of a lot better than any trio the Lakers sport. After Lamar Odom, it falls pretty quickly for the Lake Show.

Nash has better players that surround him. Were two of his better players on the bench? Yes. There is no doubt about that. However, even without those two, Phoenix has a better supporting cast than LA.

If Kobe or Odom didn't score last night, LA's chance of scoring was pretty low. You can't say that about the Suns. If Nash or Marion weren't scoring, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw (especially in OT), and Leandro Barbosa were.

[Lando Calrissian]

Nash makes Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, and Barbosa better.

That's the difference.

[Big Hawg 21]

This the same Supporting cast that was up 3-1 in the series...Nash makes his team better most of the time.  Kobe, for the most part, does not..

[return2glory]

Nash makes Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw, and Barbosa better.

That's the difference.

I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Mostly I've been arguing for the sake of arguing (and because I am bitter about Nash winning the MVP, TWICE!!). However, this is a point that you can't refute when comparing Kobe and Nash. There is no doubt about which one of the two makes his teammates better.

I'd give you +1, Lando, if I could. If you look at the games that LA has won, they won them largely because Kobe got his team mates involved. Doug Collins even mentioned it last night saying that the Lakers had to get Kwame Brown more touches in the post because it helps him rebound and defend better. I don't think he had gotten the words out of his mouth before Kobe jacked up a very contested three pointer with probably 17 seconds left in the shot clock.

[pfrg999]

Barbosa did nothing in San antonio, Diaw was a Bust @ Atlanta... he was an after thought on the Joe Johnson Deal... Tim Thomas was run out of Chicago... Marion was always a Stud... But put them with a scoring PG... wow... Arkansas without a Scoring PG... well we have scene that... Hogs with a Steve Nash type guard.. NC contender... Hey How many time has Santa Clara been to the Dance and won since Steve Left....

[GBPackerFan]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

How can you say Nash had a team around him and Kobe did not?  Amare is out, and they played without Bell.  Kobe had his same team that he has had for the 1st 5 games.  Nash is by far more valuable to his team than Kobe could ever dream of being.  Case in point, Kobe scores 50 and still loses..  Nash had 32 with, heres the most important stat, 13 assists. 

The great thing about using stats, is that you can mold them any way you want. For example, Arkansas led the SEC in rushing last year.

Huggers would say that is a step in the right direction. Darksiders would say it's largely because no other team in their right mind runs the ball on 3rd and 15.

Kobe had 50 and they lost, Nash had 32 and 13 and they won. I could say that Kobe is by far the most valuable because without him look where LA would have been. He had to have 50 to keep it close.

By the way, Shawn Marion, Barbosa, and Tim Thomas were a heck of a lot better than any trio the Lakers sport. After Lamar Odom, it falls pretty quickly for the Lake Show.

Nash has better players that surround him. Were two of his better players on the bench? Yes. There is no doubt about that. However, even without those two, Phoenix has a better supporting cast than LA.

If Kobe or Odom didn't score last night, LA's chance of scoring was pretty low. You can't say that about the Suns. If Nash or Marion weren't scoring, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw (especially in OT), and Leandro Barbosa were.

You also have to factor in how many shots Kobe takes every game.  Everyone knows that he is a pretty selfish player out there.  If he is throwing up as many shots as the rest of his team combined, then he had better be making 50 points.  But I am not trying to take anything away from Kobe's skill.  The guy is obviously a baller.  Definitely one of the best players in the league right now.  But I am a football person, so these points may be idiotic. But I do keep up with NBA and watch games when I get a chance, so I am not totally walking in the dark on this one.

[Big Hawg 21]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

How can you say Nash had a team around him and Kobe did not?  Amare is out, and they played without Bell.  Kobe had his same team that he has had for the 1st 5 games.  Nash is by far more valuable to his team than Kobe could ever dream of being.  Case in point, Kobe scores 50 and still loses..  Nash had 32 with, heres the most important stat, 13 assists. 

The great thing about using stats, is that you can mold them any way you want. For example, Arkansas led the SEC in rushing last year.

Huggers would say that is a step in the right direction. Darksiders would say it's largely because no other team in their right mind runs the ball on 3rd and 15.

Kobe had 50 and they lost, Nash had 32 and 13 and they won. I could say that Kobe is by far the most valuable because without him look where LA would have been. He had to have 50 to keep it close.

By the way, Shawn Marion, Barbosa, and Tim Thomas were a heck of a lot better than any trio the Lakers sport. After Lamar Odom, it falls pretty quickly for the Lake Show.

Nash has better players that surround him. Were two of his better players on the bench? Yes. There is no doubt about that. However, even without those two, Phoenix has a better supporting cast than LA.

If Kobe or Odom didn't score last night, LA's chance of scoring was pretty low. You can't say that about the Suns. If Nash or Marion weren't scoring, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw (especially in OT), and Leandro Barbosa were.

You also have to factor in how many shots Kobe takes every game.  Everyone knows that he is a pretty selfish player out there.  If he is throwing up as many shots as the rest of his team combined, then he had better be making 50 points.  But I am not trying to take anything away from Kobe's skill.  The guy is obviously a baller.  Definitely one of the best players in the league right now.  But I am a football person, so these points may be idiotic. But I do keep up with NBA and watch games when I get a chance, so I am not totally walking in the dark on this one.

Very good point.

[Lando Calrissian]

Check out Nash's line from last night.

32 pts, 9-14 FG, 13-13 FT, 13 assists.

If that isn't efficiency, then I don't know what is.

[return2glory]

Barbosa did nothing in San antonio, Diaw was a Bust @ Atlanta... he was an after thought on the Joe Johnson Deal... Tim Thomas was run out of Chicago... Marion was always a Stud... But put them with a scoring PG... wow... Arkansas without a Scoring PG... well we have scene that... Hogs with a Steve Nash type guard.. NC contender... Hey How many time has Santa Clara been to the Dance and won since Steve Left....

Ok back to arguing mode. I would argue that Barbosa and Diaw both didn't contribute in their former cities due to their age/inexperience and, in Barbosa's case anyway, lack of playing time. Diaw was playing out of position in Atlanta. They had him playing point guard, and he wasn't able to get the ball in the post and create the matchup problems that he does now.

I think that D'Antonni is one of the better coaches in the league. He has created that style for the Suns and deserves as much or more credit than Nash for the Suns success.

If Nash were so awesome, wouldn't it lead to reason that Dallas would have suffered when they lost him? Instead, Dallas plugged in a more defensive minded scoring PG with Jason Terry. Look what happened there. They actually got better.

I agree that he does deserve a lot of credit for the development of the players around him, but I think he gets too much credit and D'Antonni gets MUCH too little. Most of Nash's assists are a product of the system they run. If the Suns didn't run pick and roll every time down the floor, Nash would be as effective, and his teammates wouldn't be as good.

The thing that Phoenix has done (which by the way is MUCH different than what the Hogs have done) is surrounded the pass first point guard with shooters. Next year we will get to see what a pass first point guard can do when Gary Ervin plays. No I don't think GE even gets CLOSE to Nash, but the point is when you draw the defense and then kick it to a guy with a wide open 18 footer, it doesn't do your team much good if he can't knock it down on a consistent basis.

WE STILL NEED SHOOTERS!!!!

[hogtheball]

Barbosa did nothing in San antonio, Diaw was a Bust @ Atlanta... he was an after thought on the Joe Johnson Deal... Tim Thomas was run out of Chicago... Marion was always a Stud... But put them with a scoring PG... wow... Arkansas without a Scoring PG... well we have scene that... Hogs with a Steve Nash type guard.. NC contender... Hey How many time has Santa Clara been to the Dance and won since Steve Left....

Ok back to arguing mode. I would argue that Barbosa and Diaw both didn't contribute in their former cities due to their age/inexperience and, in Barbosa's case anyway, lack of playing time. Diaw was playing out of position in Atlanta. They had him playing point guard, and he wasn't able to get the ball in the post and create the matchup problems that he does now.

I think that D'Antonni is one of the better coaches in the league. He has created that style for the Suns and deserves as much or more credit than Nash for the Suns success.

If Nash were so awesome, wouldn't it lead to reason that Dallas would have suffered when they lost him? Instead, Dallas plugged in a more defensive minded scoring PG with Jason Terry. Look what happened there. They actually got better.

I agree that he does deserve a lot of credit for the development of the players around him, but I think he gets too much credit and D'Antonni gets MUCH too little. Most of Nash's assists are a product of the system they run. If the Suns didn't run pick and roll every time down the floor, Nash would be as effective, and his teammates wouldn't be as good.

The thing that Phoenix has done (which by the way is MUCH different than what the Hogs have done) is surrounded the pass first point guard with shooters. Next year we will get to see what a pass first point guard can do when Gary Ervin plays. No I don't think GE even gets CLOSE to Nash, but the point is when you draw the defense and then kick it to a guy with a wide open 18 footer, it doesn't do your team much good if he can't knock it down on a consistent basis.

WE STILL NEED SHOOTERS!!!!

Dude, look at Pheonix before Nash and since.  That should end your doubts as to how valuable Nash is to Phoenix.  Nash is also getting pretty good at turning decent players into great ones.  If Diaw were playing with Kobe, it would take him years to develop his game.  Two more years with Nash and he'll be an all-star.

[Big Hawg 21]

I cant say that Dallas got much better?  I mean they were good then just like they're good now.  You make a good point, but its not like Dallas has even come close to the finals since Nash left or even when Nash was there.

[return2glory]

as good as Nash was last night, Kobe was even better.  NAsh had a team around him, Kobe had nothing.  The shot that put the Lakers in the lead in the closing seconds of the game was one of the most incredible ones I've ever seen.

How can you say Nash had a team around him and Kobe did not?  Amare is out, and they played without Bell.  Kobe had his same team that he has had for the 1st 5 games.  Nash is by far more valuable to his team than Kobe could ever dream of being.  Case in point, Kobe scores 50 and still loses..  Nash had 32 with, heres the most important stat, 13 assists. 

The great thing about using stats, is that you can mold them any way you want. For example, Arkansas led the SEC in rushing last year.

Huggers would say that is a step in the right direction. Darksiders would say it's largely because no other team in their right mind runs the ball on 3rd and 15.

Kobe had 50 and they lost, Nash had 32 and 13 and they won. I could say that Kobe is by far the most valuable because without him look where LA would have been. He had to have 50 to keep it close.

By the way, Shawn Marion, Barbosa, and Tim Thomas were a heck of a lot better than any trio the Lakers sport. After Lamar Odom, it falls pretty quickly for the Lake Show.

Nash has better players that surround him. Were two of his better players on the bench? Yes. There is no doubt about that. However, even without those two, Phoenix has a better supporting cast than LA.

If Kobe or Odom didn't score last night, LA's chance of scoring was pretty low. You can't say that about the Suns. If Nash or Marion weren't scoring, Tim Thomas, Boris Diaw (especially in OT), and Leandro Barbosa were.

You also have to factor in how many shots Kobe takes every game.  Everyone knows that he is a pretty selfish player out there.  If he is throwing up as many shots as the rest of his team combined, then he had better be making 50 points.  But I am not trying to take anything away from Kobe's skill.  The guy is obviously a baller.  Definitely one of the best players in the league right now.  But I am a football person, so these points may be idiotic. But I do keep up with NBA and watch games when I get a chance, so I am not totally walking in the dark on this one.

Your point is definitely not idiotic. It's a VERY valid point. You could argue this point for Nash when sizing him up with Bryant, Iverson, and to a lesser degree Lebron.

My rebuttal, albeit probably a weak one, would be that having Marion, Tim Thomas, Raja Bell, Barbosa, and Diaw shooting open jumpers is a lot more effective than having Luke Walton (think I don't like Steve Nash? Don't even get me started on this kids ol man), Kwame Brown, Devon George, and Lamar Odom shooting the same open jumpers.

For the Lakers to win, Kobe has to score.

The Suns can win with Nash having 8 points.

Kobe's line wasn't that bad last night either.

50 pts, 20-35 FG (5-8 3pt), 5-6 FTs, 8 rbs, 5 assists, and 3 steals.



The debate has been fun guys, but if I don't get some work done, I'm going to get fired.

[aristotle]

The Lakers lost last night because Kobe had 50. Strange but true. The Suns had absolutely no answer for anything the Lakers wanted to do inside. But Kobe took 35 shot attempts. His center Brown took only 9. His point guard Parker took only 5. Meanwhile, the Suns are without Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, and Raja Bell. Brian Grant, the closest resemblence to a "big man" played 3 minutes.

Congrats to Kobe for his nice point total, but it caused them to lose. Should have kept pounding it inside and for a sure victory. The Suns played 6 players last night for any stretch. The box score shows 8 but House and Grand played 10 minutes between the 2 of them. And the Suns had no center.

[return2glory]

I cant say that Dallas got much better?  I mean they were good then just like they're good now.  You make a good point, but its not like Dallas has even come close to the finals since Nash left or even when Nash was there.

Point is if he were that valuable, you'd see a big drop off when he left. Want evidence? See the Lakers post Shaq.

[return2glory]

Barbosa did nothing in San antonio, Diaw was a Bust @ Atlanta... he was an after thought on the Joe Johnson Deal... Tim Thomas was run out of Chicago... Marion was always a Stud... But put them with a scoring PG... wow... Arkansas without a Scoring PG... well we have scene that... Hogs with a Steve Nash type guard.. NC contender... Hey How many time has Santa Clara been to the Dance and won since Steve Left....

Ok back to arguing mode. I would argue that Barbosa and Diaw both didn't contribute in their former cities due to their age/inexperience and, in Barbosa's case anyway, lack of playing time. Diaw was playing out of position in Atlanta. They had him playing point guard, and he wasn't able to get the ball in the post and create the matchup problems that he does now.

I think that D'Antonni is one of the better coaches in the league. He has created that style for the Suns and deserves as much or more credit than Nash for the Suns success.

If Nash were so awesome, wouldn't it lead to reason that Dallas would have suffered when they lost him? Instead, Dallas plugged in a more defensive minded scoring PG with Jason Terry. Look what happened there. They actually got better.

I agree that he does deserve a lot of credit for the development of the players around him, but I think he gets too much credit and D'Antonni gets MUCH too little. Most of Nash's assists are a product of the system they run. If the Suns didn't run pick and roll every time down the floor, Nash would be as effective, and his teammates wouldn't be as good.

The thing that Phoenix has done (which by the way is MUCH different than what the Hogs have done) is surrounded the pass first point guard with shooters. Next year we will get to see what a pass first point guard can do when Gary Ervin plays. No I don't think GE even gets CLOSE to Nash, but the point is when you draw the defense and then kick it to a guy with a wide open 18 footer, it doesn't do your team much good if he can't knock it down on a consistent basis.

WE STILL NEED SHOOTERS!!!!

Dude, look at Pheonix before Nash and since.  That should end your doubts as to how valuable Nash is to Phoenix.  Nash is also getting pretty good at turning decent players into great ones.  If Diaw were playing with Kobe, it would take him years to develop his game.  Two more years with Nash and he'll be an all-star.

D'Antonni also came at the same time Nash did. You're point on Diaw playing with Kobe is dead on. There's no doubt. He wouldn't be half the player with LA as he is now with Phoenix. Again though, I think D'Antonni deserves some of that credit. How many coaches in the league play with a 6'8"  "Center". Not many.

[Lando Calrissian]

Should have kept pounding it inside and for a sure victory.

To Kobe's defense, he did defer to Kwame Brown, Walton, and Parker several times in the 2nd half, and neither of them came through at any time.  Kobe was pretty much forced to shoot that much because he wasn't getting ANY help from his teammates.  He gave them their chances, and they didn't help out at all.

He needs Lamar Odom to help out more.  The thing with Odom is that he looks like a freakin' All-Star for stretches, then he'll totally disappear.

Nash is the MVP, by the way.

[return2glory]

The Lakers lost last night because Kobe had 50. Strange but true. The Suns had absolutely no answer for anything the Lakers wanted to do inside. But Kobe took 35 shot attempts. His center Brown took only 9. His point guard Parker took only 5. Meanwhile, the Suns are without Stoudamire, Kurt Thomas, and Raja Bell. Brian Grant, the closest resemblence to a "big man" played 3 minutes.

Congrats to Kobe for his nice point total, but it caused them to lose. Should have kept pounding it inside and for a sure victory. The Suns played 6 players last night for any stretch. The box score shows 8 but House and Grand played 10 minutes between the 2 of them. And the Suns had no center.

I agree in some part. Kwame probably should have gotten more touches, but foul trouble has limited his touches in the past two games. I'm not even sure I can count on two hands how many open shots Smush has passed up. He simply has not played well since early in the series. He isn't shooting the ball worth a crap right now. If I'm the Lakers, I'm not sure I want my season hanging on the shoulders of a guy who won't shoot an open shot.

I understand your point, and I think that it is a very valid one. However, you can't shoot the ball for the guys. A majority of LA's points were coming from the paint. Whether it be from Kobe, Odom, or Brown.

[return2glory]

Should have kept pounding it inside and for a sure victory.

Nash is the MVP, by the way.

Guess I can't argue with you since he'll be accepting the trophy. But if you want to know my feelings on the MVP race, see the thread below.

http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,57144.0.html

[aristotle]

Should have kept pounding it inside and for a sure victory.

To Kobe's defense, he did defer to Kwame Brown, Walton, and Parker several times in the 2nd half, and neither of them came through at any time.  Kobe was pretty much forced to shoot that much because he wasn't getting ANY help from his teammates.  He gave them their chances, and they didn't help out at all.

He needs Lamar Odom to help out more.  The thing with Odom is that he looks like a freakin' All-Star for stretches, then he'll totally disappear.

Nash is the MVP, by the way.

Kwami was 8 for 9 shooting. The Suns has nothing to stop it. Parker was 0 for 5, you are right he didn't give much help. Brian Cook, back up big man who sometimes thinks he is a 3 shooter, had zero shot attempts. That is unexcusable when the other team lacks a big man. I have to assume, perhaps incorrectly, that Phil recognized this yet Kobe took the action away from the bigs. Kobe recognized that he could get his points over Barbosa, but his didn't realize that his team would have won had he exploited the serious weakeness of the Suns. IMO of course.

[return2glory]

  It's been fun guys. I'll get back to you in an hour or so.

[Big Hawg 21]

I cant say that Dallas got much better?  I mean they were good then just like they're good now.  You make a good point, but its not like Dallas has even come close to the finals since Nash left or even when Nash was there.

Point is if he were that valuable, you'd see a big drop off when he left. Want evidence? See the Lakers post Shaq.

But you look at it the other way too..Where were the Suns pre-Nash?  They didnt make the playoffs.
you make good points..Its just a good debate.

[Lando Calrissian]

Nash is also a different player now from when he left the Mavericks.

I'm willing to bet that if the Mavs would have known what he would become, they wouldn't have let him get away so easily.

[aristotle]

Interesting factoid I heard a while ago: Kobe wears #8 because of his favorite player growing up as a kid in Italy. That player was Mike D'Antoni

[Lando Calrissian]

No way.

Really?

[Hognob]

The mavs didn't let him get away easily, they offered him a very good contract.  The suns just offered him a better one.  Everyone thought they over-payed at the time, but I doubt anyone thinks that now.

Besides you could make an arguement that the Mavs are better without him.  They did finish with the second best record in the west this season, and their defense has improved a lot since he left.  No one ever accused Nash of playing defense.

[Lando Calrissian]

Heh, nobody has accused any of the Suns for playing defense.  Even Marion got used by Kobe Bryant several times last night.

I can't believe the Suns are doing it without Stoudemire though.

[hogtheball]

Barbosa did nothing in San antonio, Diaw was a Bust @ Atlanta... he was an after thought on the Joe Johnson Deal... Tim Thomas was run out of Chicago... Marion was always a Stud... But put them with a scoring PG... wow... Arkansas without a Scoring PG... well we have scene that... Hogs with a Steve Nash type guard.. NC contender... Hey How many time has Santa Clara been to the Dance and won since Steve Left....

Ok back to arguing mode. I would argue that Barbosa and Diaw both didn't contribute in their former cities due to their age/inexperience and, in Barbosa's case anyway, lack of playing time. Diaw was playing out of position in Atlanta. They had him playing point guard, and he wasn't able to get the ball in the post and create the matchup problems that he does now.

I think that D'Antonni is one of the better coaches in the league. He has created that style for the Suns and deserves as much or more credit than Nash for the Suns success.

If Nash were so awesome, wouldn't it lead to reason that Dallas would have suffered when they lost him? Instead, Dallas plugged in a more defensive minded scoring PG with Jason Terry. Look what happened there. They actually got better.

I agree that he does deserve a lot of credit for the development of the players around him, but I think he gets too much credit and D'Antonni gets MUCH too little. Most of Nash's assists are a product of the system they run. If the Suns didn't run pick and roll every time down the floor, Nash would be as effective, and his teammates wouldn't be as good.

The thing that Phoenix has done (which by the way is MUCH different than what the Hogs have done) is surrounded the pass first point guard with shooters. Next year we will get to see what a pass first point guard can do when Gary Ervin plays. No I don't think GE even gets CLOSE to Nash, but the point is when you draw the defense and then kick it to a guy with a wide open 18 footer, it doesn't do your team much good if he can't knock it down on a consistent basis.

WE STILL NEED SHOOTERS!!!!

Dude, look at Pheonix before Nash and since.  That should end your doubts as to how valuable Nash is to Phoenix.  Nash is also getting pretty good at turning decent players into great ones.  If Diaw were playing with Kobe, it would take him years to develop his game.  Two more years with Nash and he'll be an all-star.

D'Antonni also came at the same time Nash did. You're point on Diaw playing with Kobe is dead on. There's no doubt. He wouldn't be half the player with LA as he is now with Phoenix. Again though, I think D'Antonni deserves some of that credit. How many coaches in the league play with a 6'8"  "Center". Not many.

D'Antonni came the year before Nash.  He took the job Dec. 3 of 2003.  He is a good coach, however.   You also have to look at the fact that Dallas got a new coach after Nash left as well.  He's doing a better job with his talent than Nellie did.  If Nash was still at Dallas, they'd be the best team in the league.  Of course they'd also be a few million over the salarie cap.

[Lando Calrissian]

Going back to Iverson (and since we're playing "What if?"), I say that if you interchange Iverson for Nash on this exact same Suns team, then they are a .500 team at best.

[Whataboar™]

Have to admit that I watched a few minutes of the Suns-Lakers game last night.
The Nash vs. Kobe match up is a bit intriguing.
Both are great talents, but given Nash's lack of size, I'm amazed at what he can do; a lot like Iverson.
Still ... I feel Lebron James should have gotten the MVP award this year.
That kid is indeed a freak of nature and only 21 years old to boot.
I normally go out of my way to avoid the NBA, but I'll be tuning in Game 7 of the Suns-Lakers series.
I can't stand to watch the whole game, though; will probably catch the last quarter.

[aristotle]

Going back to Iverson (and since we're playing "What if?"), I say that if you interchange Iverson for Nash on this exact same Suns team, then they are a .500 team at best.

If that. Iverson is a good player, but he has consistently shown that he does not make the others around him better. Now he does make them bitter, but not better.

[Big Hawg 21]

Have to admit that I watched a few minutes of the Suns-Lakers game last night.
The Nash vs. Kobe match up is a bit intriguing.
Both are great talents, but given Nash's lack of size, I'm amazed at what he can do; a lot like Iverson.
Still ... I feel Lebron James should have gotten the MVP award this year.
That kid is indeed a freak of nature and only 21 years old to boot.
I normally go out of my way to avoid the NBA, but I'll be tuning in Game 7 of the Suns-Lakers series.
I can't stand to watch the whole game, though; will probably catch the last quarter.

Remember there is a difference between being the "best"player in the league and being the MVP of the league..

[Lando Calrissian]

Lebron will have his time in the sun.  I still can't believe he's only 21.

Nash and Kobe are in their prime right now, which also means they aren't getting any younger either.

Lebron's time is coming.  Just not yet, though.

[hogtheball]

Going back to Iverson (and since we're playing "What if?"), I say that if you interchange Iverson for Nash on this exact same Suns team, then they are a .500 team at best.

Agreed.  I don't think they make the playoffs with AI.  Here's one, what if Kobe and Nash traded places?

[Lando Calrissian]

Here's one, what if Kobe and Nash traded places?

Eeeee...

Now that's a tough one.

I think Nash and Odom would work well together, but I also think Kobe and Shawn Marion would work well together.

Boy, that's tough...

[hogtheball]

Here's one, what if Kobe and Nash traded places?

Eeeee...

Now that's a tough one.

I think Nash and Odom would work well together, but I also think Kobe and Shawn Marion would work well together.

Boy, that's tough...

I don't think you'd see tim thomas ready to hit any game winners, however.  And you'd see George, Walton, and Parker all playing with more confidence.  I don't think Nash would like running the triangle, though.  Kobe would love Pheonix's offense.

[wincrimson]

Nash >> All

[Porquemada]

Are Steve Nash and "The Bad News Bears", Kelly Leak the same person?