Charges will not be filed in UA Rape Investigation...Press Release from Players

[WilsonHog]

I believe in our criminal justice system, simply because it is the best one in the world, but it is not without flaws on both sides of the aisle. In the interest of protecting everyone people get trampled on from time to time; normally that fate falls to those too poor to have their version mean much.

Because I believe in our system of justice, I will freely concede that those three players did nothing criminally wrong. That does not mean, however, that conduct unbecoming a representative of the University of Arkansas did not occur; those two standards are miles apart. So while I can certainly appreciate the skills those young men bring to the basketball court, it begins and ends there. I have no more use for them than that.

If there is a lesson for the players here, it is this - it takes years to create a great reputation and five minutes to lose it. Reputations get lost many times simply because a person was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a stigma attaches. Take Ben Cowins, for example; he was a great running back at UA, one of the best ever. Still, I doubt his name ever gets mentioned around the state without someone pretty quickly saying, "Oh, yeah, he was one of the players suspended for the Orange Bowl game with OU." That fact is considered right alongside his best moments as a Razorback, and sometimes more so. That's life.     

[twistitup]

They should sue the girl.  She made a mistake and dragged their names down.  She should pay based on the evidence.  And screw ya'll that have done nothing but bash our player, even in light of actual evidence. 

Agree.

Defamation - a false and malicious published statement that damages somebody's reputation.

[rzrbackrob]

Taking advantage of a compromised woman whether criminal or not is wrong.

[thirtythree]

Taking advantage of a compromised woman whether criminal or not is wrong.

How do you know that she was taken advantage of instead of being a very willing participant?

[twistitup]

Taking advantage of a compromised woman whether criminal or not is wrong.

Falsely accusing people of a serious crime is wrong.

IMO her actions were far worse the basketball players. One was consensual (in the bedroom) - one was illegal (false accusations)

[WilsonHog]

How do you know that she was taken advantage of instead of being a very willing participant?

Here is what I think he is saying, 33.

By all accounts the girl was in some state of disorientation; therefore, consent might not be to the level, we shall say, of one who had ingested nothing.

Let me ask you this. Let's suppose that had been your sister. Would that change your opinion of those young men, even though no criminal charges were filed?

To ask the question another way, had that been your sister and you had been in the room, would you have any qualms about saying, "Hey, some Razorback basketball players! Guys, my sis is out of it a little bit, but y'all are certainly welcome to come screw her if you want." Would that have been okay with you?     

[twistitup]

Dude, I would not offer up my sister if I was SOBER.....not a great analogy!

Your kidding, right? Comparing college kids partying to a brother offering his sister up for sex? What a leap~

[thirtythree]

Wilson, while I certainly can't disagree with you on your post because you're entitled to how you feel about it. Now, I just think this never should have come up and should have never been an issue. Young men do stupid things all the time while in college. While I won't ask you to divulge anything, I wonder if you did anything that "could" have shed a dim light at all. I'm not saying you did, but I also wonder if you knew of some who might have. How do you feel about the guys who had a similar situation under Nolan?

I whole hearted agree that they did put themselves in a position they shouldn't have. They have paid for it, and I feel they served suspensions for too long. I just can't see holding a grudge against them for something that should have never even left that frat house (according to the law). Everyone's entitled though.

[thirtythree]

Here is what I think he is saying, 33.

By all accounts the girl was in some state of disorientation; therefore, consent might not be to the level, we shall say, of one who had ingested nothing.

Let me ask you this. Let's suppose that had been your sister. Would that change your opinion of those young men, even though no criminal charges were filed?

To ask the question another way, had that been your sister and you had been in the room, would you have any qualms about saying, "Hey, some Razorback basketball players! Guys, my sis is out of it a little bit, but y'all are certainly welcome to come screw her if you want." Would that have been okay with you?   

I will say it like this Wilson. I have a 15 y/o daughter (2 months away from 16). If it is ever found that she fabricated a story, as it seems this girl has done, I will take her to the police myself. Now, if it is found that she was done wrong I will be in jail and the charges will be depending how quickly they got to me before I finished what I started. At some point in a life there are going to be desicions that one makes that will raise questions about character. That doesn't mean they are bad people, but should pay for the mistake.

[WilsonHog]

Dude, I would not offer up my sister if I was SOBER.....not a great analogy!

Your kidding, right? Comparing college kids partying to a brother offering his sister up for sex? What a leap~

I very intentionally brought it up, because I believe that wrong is wrong. In other words, if it would have been okay for them to "party" with some girl you didn't know, then it ought to be okay if that girl had been your sister, daughter, niece, best friend, etc.

That's why it is called a moral absolute; either it's right behavior in all circumstances or right in none.     

[Michael Porkleone]

So, I wonder who's DNA they found?

[Lando Calrissian]

So, I wonder who's DNA they found?

Who knows.

It still cracks me up that some fans are treating this like a victory. 

I'm suddenly reminded why I'm choosing not to go to the game today.

[The Pig]

Who knows.

It still cracks me up that some fans are treating this like a victory. 

I'm suddenly reminded why I'm choosing not to go to the game today.

If you really want to make a stand, don't watch pro sports, loads of athletes who have made questionable decisions and even broken the law.

Don't abide by decisions made by our congress, many members who have made decisions that are morally questionable and in many cases illegal.

If you are that hell bent on a standard of morality, apply it to all facets of your life in lieu of using it as a crutch to support your personal dislike for this basketball team.

[Michael Porkleone]

Who knows.

It still cracks me up that some fans are treating this like a victory. 

I'm suddenly reminded why I'm choosing not to go to the game today.

Naah - there's never a victory in a ten said/she said case.

Some of the things I saw on campus while living in the dorms/fraternity house make me never want to have kids. 

When alcohol is involved, it only multiplies the stupidity.   

[Hot_Town_Hog]

Who knows.

It still cracks me up that some fans are treating this like a victory. 

I'm suddenly reminded why I'm choosing not to go to the game today.

I would say just the opposite on the victory comment. So many posters on here have grown such a hatred of Pel, they are willing to throw the players under the bus in hopes it will lead to more losses and you can get a new coach in here. There is no question in my mind that some on this board hoped they would be found guilty to promote their agenda against Pel. Same with Fortson, he has made a couple of mistakes, but has been bashed repeatedly from a few posters. The more I hear him interviewed, he actually sounds like a fairly humble guy that has hopefully learned from his mistakes.

I do not recall any bashing of Nolan's players who were accused in a similar manner. There was actually a big sigh of relief from fans that the players would be eligible and our hopes of the Final Four were still alive.

[labb]

So, I wonder how long before someone decides to take a "Message Board" to court because of some posts (that Mods allow to remain on the board) about certain people by name that can be considered deformation of character? Are internet message boards protected? I know that the grocery store rags can be sued. Can a message board? How about it some of you on board lawers? Am I not correct that a poster on a message board can be traced?

[mhsbc59]

I might be wrong but I don't think that it was the first time either the men or the young lady had been around the block.  As my mom used to tell nothing good happens after midnight. And being drunk is still no excuse for your actions. DUI still go to jail for vehicular man homicide. They can't say I was drunk its not my fault.  So being drunk should not be an excuse for being a slut.   

[WilsonHog]

So, I wonder how long before someone decides to take a "Message Board" to court because of some posts (that Mods allow to remain on the board) about certain people by name that can be considered deformation of character? Are internet message boards protected? I know that the grocery store rags can be sued. Can a message board? How about it some of you on board lawers? Am I not correct that a poster on a message board can be traced?

It's all about words. As Jimmy Hoffa said, "Are we using words now? Is that what we're doing? Using words?"

Yes, we are.

If a poster comes out and says, "Player X raped that girl,"or "I saw Player Y on Dickson last night snorting a line of cocaine," that's a potential problem. That's where a reckless disregard for the truth comes in.

Very few people are stupid enough to do that.

However, if I recall that story was broken my mainstream media. At that point, I can talk all I want about how I THINK they are guilty, how I BELIEVE they're guilty, how they ought to be kicked off, how I think they are sorry people, etc.

[snoblind]

It's all about words. As Jimmy Hoffa said, "Are we using words now? Is that what we're doing? Using words?"

Yes, we are.

If a poster comes out and says, "Player X raped that girl,"or "I saw Player Y on Dickson last night snorting a line of cocaine," that's a potential problem. That's where a reckless disregard for the truth comes in.

Very few people are stupid enough to do that.

However, if I recall that story was broken my mainstream media. At that point, I can talk all I want about how I THINK they are guilty, how I BELIEVE they're guilty, how they ought to be kicked off, how I think they are sorry people, etc.

I'm not wasting my time to look at the old threads, but as I recall many posters came close to crossing the line if not crossing it you mention.  I remember "they are guilty" posts.  My post makes 69 on this thread and not a single person has stepped up who was so adamant that the players were guilty to say I was wrong.

The best that side can do on this thread is, "How can you call this a victory?" or whining "they said insuffucent evidence" like they still think they are guilty.  What part of "The truth is that we voluntarily took and passed a polygraph examination in December, 2009 (Nick Mason did not participate) which showed that we did not engage in the conduct of which we were accused. We all voluntarily submitted DNA samples which, through scientific testing methods and procedures conducted by the Arkansas Sates Crime Lab, conclusively proves beyond a reasonable doubt that we did not commit the acts of which we were accused as the DNA taken from the accuser was not contributed by any of us." are you incapable of understanding?  If I understand that last phrase correctly it tells me all I need to know about the accuser.

The victory?  How about 3 people falsely accused not going to jail or worse?  What I want to say on this issue would get me banned at worst and this post deleted.  But I think everyone knows exactly what I'm thinking.

[mhsbc59]

Yeah what he said.

[WilsonHog]

I'm not wasting my time to look at the old threads, but as I recall many posters came close to crossing the line if not crossing it you mention.  I remember "they are guilty" posts.  My post makes 69 on this thread and not a single person has stepped up who was so adamant that the players were guilty to say I was wrong.

The best that side can do on this thread is, "How can you call this a victory?" or whining "they said insuffucent evidence" like they still think they are guilty.  What part of "The truth is that we voluntarily took and passed a polygraph examination in December, 2009 (Nick Mason did not participate) which showed that we did not engage in the conduct of which we were accused. We all voluntarily submitted DNA samples which, through scientific testing methods and procedures conducted by the Arkansas Sates Crime Lab, conclusively proves beyond a reasonable doubt that we did not commit the acts of which we were accused as the DNA taken from the accuser was not contributed by any of us." are you incapable of understanding?  If I understand that last phrase correctly it tells me all I need to know about the accuser.

The victory?  How about 3 people falsely accused not going to jail or worse?  What I want to say on this issue would get me banned at worst and this post deleted.  But I think everyone knows exactly what I'm thinking.

You are confusing "guilty" as a legal term with "blameless" in the eyes of people. Those are different standards. For example, I don't think there is a law on the books in Arkansas that would cause a teacher to be criminally charged for having intercourse with a 17-year old student, but I bet it wouldn't be received well in his or her local community.

Just because something isn't illegal or no crime is committed doesn't mean that I or anyone else have to condone it; we each have our own personal standards of behavior.   

The burden of proof in a court of law and the court of public opinion isn't the same.   

[snoblind]

You are confusing "guilty" as a legal term with "blameless" in the eyes of people. Those are different standards. For example, I don't think there is a law on the books in Arkansas that would cause a teacher to be criminally charged for having intercourse with a 17-year old student, but I bet it wouldn't be received well in his or her local community.

Just because something isn't illegal or no crime is committed doesn't mean that I or anyone else have to condone it; we each have our own personal standards of behavior.   

The burden of proof in a court of law and the court of public opinion isn't the same.  

Nope, I'm not.  And I have posted nothing condoning the actions of the young men involved nor I am accusing or asking anyone else of doing so.  I never said they were blameless.  My post simply pointed to the FACT that none of those who were on here posting that these kids were guilty of the crime they were accused of have come on here to say they were wrong.  Of course, the "burden of proof" is different, and not relevant to my point.  As they title of the thread says, they were accused of rape.  The 2 in question passed a lie detector test saying they didn't do the actions they were accused of.  And the DNA FROM the accuser wasn't theirs.

[rzrbackrob]

How do you know that she was taken advantage of instead of being a very willing participant?

A person who has consumed too much alcohol judgment is impaired, making them vulnerable.
When someone's vulnerable, some human's response is to protect that person, other human's response is to take advantage of them.

[thirtythree]

A person who has consumed too much alcohol judgment is impaired, making them vulnerable.
When someone's vulnerable, some human's response is to protect that person, other human's response is to take advantage of them.

So I guss it's cool to automatically assume that sh was taken adavantage of. What a load of crap.

[The Pig]

A person who has consumed too much alcohol judgment is impaired, making them vulnerable.
When someone's vulnerable, some human's response is to protect that person, other human's response is to take advantage of them.

What happens if both parties have consumed too much alcohol.....Both parties are then subject to make poor decisions.

Don't know if that's the case here or not but if so, neither party or parties may have viewed it in the same light that they would have when sober.

[mhsbc59]

How women can claim being drunk and get sympathy and drunk guys are just stupid

[KlubhouseKonnected]

To say that there was a strong racial component to this case would be putting it mildly.

[mhsbc59]

True let's look at the facts then. Fact polly graph tests pasted! Fact DNA not a match! Huh what more do u need.

[swinesation]

It seems to me that people are missing the point. Clearly none of these three players had sex with this girl. That is the point in saying there was no DNA link. The didn't have sex with her--forced, blurred judgment, consensual. It didn't happen.

[twistitup]

It seems to me that people are missing the point. Clearly none of these three players had sex with this girl. That is the point in saying there was no DNA link. The didn't have sex with her--forced, blurred judgment, consensual. It didn't happen.

Does 'mouth sex' count?

[rzrbackrob]

So I guss it's cool to automatically assume that sh was taken adavantage of. What a load of crap.

A man either honors and respects women or he doesn't.

[thirtythree]

A man either honors and respects woman or he doesn't.

There is also a thing called hormones. I am guessing you have heard of them. Look a couple posts up. How did these guys take advantage of this girl. I go back to a classic line in our history, "If it doesn't fit, you must aquit".

[rzrbackrob]

http://deadspin.com/5356405/arkansas-basketball-gang-bangs-and-rape-lols-on-twitter

The above article is a little review of the incident.

I can understand why no criminal charges were brought against the young men, but engaging in acts of such an intimate nature with a vulnerable person is not the right thing to do. To be clear, the right thing to have done would have been to help her back to a place of safety, not take advantage of her being obviously intoxicated.

[twistitup]

http://deadspin.com/5356405/arkansas-basketball-gang-bangs-and-rape-lols-on-twitter

The above article is a little review of the incident.

I can understand why no criminal charges were brought against the young men, but engaging in acts of such an intimate nature with a vulnerable person is not the right thing to do. To be clear, the right thing to have done would have been to help her back to a place of safety, not take advantage of her being obviously intoxicated.

Oh, your soooo morally flawless. I bet you WOULD help her back to a place of 'safety' (your house) so you could have her all for yourself, don't lie......didn't your momma teach you to share?

[snoblind]

http://deadspin.com/5356405/arkansas-basketball-gang-bangs-and-rape-lols-on-twitter

The above article is a little review of the incident.

I can understand why no criminal charges were brought against the young men, but engaging in acts of such an intimate nature with a vulnerable person is not the right thing to do. To be clear, the right thing to have done would have been to help her back to a place of safety, not take advantage of her being obviously intoxicated.

Your "chivalry" can be understood.  Since neither of us were there we don't know the specifics.  My view of this event is influenced by an similar event in a UofA fraternity house over 30 years ago.  Full disclosure - I was a witness not a participant. The young lady in that event announced that she had "taken on the entire Duke basketball team" and wondered if "the men at the university were as good as they were."  Was she intoxicated? Yes.  But those who choose to participate were also.  I know, since I had been drinking with them for hours.  And yes, a couple were basketball players.  After the event I had the misfortune of walking by the room where the "event" had occurred as she emerged.  She announced she was going to call the cops and claim rape unless someone took her home.  Rape? because she had been?  No. because she was embarrassed? No. because her father had caught her? No.  It was because she wanted a ride home and she knew the threat of rape would get her what she wanted.

I don't know if this was similar circumstances and neither does anyone else posting in this thread.  And, as I posted earlier, I am not condoning or excusing the BB players behavior.  But it is amazing how many folks on this thread still want to throw the men under the bus and give the lady a pass because she was drinking and therefore she was taken advantage of.

Perhaps you have never been intoxicated, but it's not easy to judge how intoxicated someone else is when you are also.  Perhaps you are a better man than most of us. Speculation on my part, but most 18-19 year old males don't walk away when a female throws herself at them, especially when they have been drinking.  Not excusing it or condoning it; that's just the way it is.  And I have yet to see any claims she ever said no.  Which, I think, is a critical point.

[fred ziffel]

Case closed. All else is drivel.

True let's look at the facts then. Fact polly graph tests pasted! Fact DNA not a match! Huh what more do u need.

[rzrbackrob]

Your "chivalry" can be understood.  Since neither of us were there we don't know the specifics.  My view of this event is influenced by an similar event in a UofA fraternity house over 30 years ago.  Full disclosure - I was a witness not a participant. The young lady in that event announced that she had "taken on the entire Duke basketball team" and wondered if "the men at the university were as good as they were."  Was she intoxicated? Yes.  But those who choose to participate were also.  I know, since I had been drinking with them for hours.  And yes, a couple were basketball players.  After the event I had the misfortune of walking by the room where the "event" had occurred as she emerged.  She announced she was going to call the cops and claim rape unless someone took her home.  Rape? because she had been?  No. because she was embarrassed? No. because her father had caught her? No.  It was because she wanted a ride home and she knew the threat of rape would get her what she wanted.

I don't know if this was similar circumstances and neither does anyone else posting in this thread.  And, as I posted earlier, I am not condoning or excusing the BB players behavior.  But it is amazing how many folks on this thread still want to throw the men under the bus and give the lady a pass because she was drinking and therefore she was taken advantage of.

Perhaps you have never been intoxicated, but it's not easy to judge how intoxicated someone else is when you are also.  Perhaps you are a better man than most of us. Speculation on my part, but most 18-19 year old males don't walk away when a female throws herself at them, especially when they have been drinking.  Not excusing it or condoning it; that's just the way it is.  And I have yet to see any claims she ever said no.  Which, I think, is a critical point.

All of us have done things in our lives that we are not proud of.
Just because all of us have done the wrong thing in a situation does not mean that the behavior is not wrong.
The young men in this case made poor decisions and did not do the right thing.
Maybe you have to live a few years and have children before this seems obvious.

[k.c.hawg]

As I recall.... in witness statements the girl was engaging in voluntary behavior in front of a room full of people that seemed indicative that she was not unfamiliar with being assertive in what "she" wanted. She was dancing with one of the defendants partially undressing him and caressing his body while other defendants danced around her and when a defendant went to the couch area she followed him there. I think it is reasonable to assume she didn't go from being naive to behaving like this in front of a group of people in one night. No one ever indicated seeing any actions that could be interpreted as "against her will". The fact that she cannot remember much of what happened cannot be substantiated because she is the only one that knows if that is the truth. When these defendants were being subjected to the "let's see what happens when the rape kit comes back" treatment..... I don't ever recall the victim releasing a statement saying the body fluids might be those of another person or persons other than the defendants, to also bring her character in question. These guys have admitted being guilty of conduct unbecoming of a Razorback and have been severely punished with the damage to their reputation. I am 50 years old and most people my age know these things happened throughout our college years on all campuses. If I disassociated myself from every guy I know that engaged in this kind of behavior at least once in their younger years, I would be disassociating from many outstanding men in their communities, great fathers, great husbands, great sons to their parents. I think these guys should have to deal with the damage done to their reputations from making a bad decision but at the same time be allowed to move on with their lives and become all they can be with the presumption they are innocent of this crime.

[GuvHog]

All of us have done things in our lives that we are not proud of.
Just because all of us have done the wrong thing in a situation does not mean that the behavior is not wrong.
The young men in this case made poor decisions and did not do the right thing.
Maybe you have to live a few years and have children before this seems obvious.

There is no evidence that the players did anything other than put themselves in a bad situation
and they were punished for it in addition to apologizing for it. Your insistance they they did
something more is out of line. The girl got caught in a lie and should be punished for it.

[thirtythree]

As I recall.... in witness statements the girl was engaging in voluntary behavior in front of a room full of people that seemed indicative that she was not unfamiliar with being assertive in what "she" wanted. She was dancing with one of the defendants partially undressing him and caressing his body while other defendants danced around her and when a defendant went to the couch area she followed him there. I think it is reasonable to assume she didn't go from being naive to behaving like this in front of a group of people in one night. No one ever indicated seeing any actions that could be interpreted as "against her will". The fact that she cannot remember much of what happened cannot be substantiated because she is the only one that knows if that is the truth. When these defendants were being subjected to the "let's see what happens when the rape kit comes back" treatment..... I don't ever recall the victim releasing a statement saying the body fluids might be those of another person or persons other than the defendants, to also bring her character in question. These guys have admitted being guilty of conduct unbecoming of a Razorback and have been severely punished with the damage to their reputation. I am 50 years old and most people my age know these things happened throughout our college years on all campuses. If I disassociated myself from every guy I know that engaged in this kind of behavior at least once in their younger years, I would be disassociating from many outstanding men in their communities, great fathers, great husbands, great sons to their parents. I think these guys should have to deal with the damage done to their reputations from making a bad decision but at the same time be allowed to move on with their lives and become all they can be with the presumption they are innocent of this crime.

Very well said sir. +1

[twistitup]

I feel she should spend 30 days or so in jail for filing a false police report and failing to mention there was another guy she was with that night (the one who left his sperm in her panties)

[rude1]

the fact there was "insufficient evidence" to file charges doesnt mean the girl lied about anything...

Are you kidding me?  There was DNA evidence that didn't match any of the players she accused. Saying there is insufficient evidence is a matter of semantics only. Did you expect it to read "Skank, Skeezer, Hoochie, Ho" or whatever appropriate term some use in cases like these?

[mhsbc59]

The girl should probely just start doing porn that way she could starting getting payed for her antics instead of having to accuse people of things they didn't do in order to get fame.

[SLC]

I think a lot of posters are confusing the letter from the special prosecuter with the statement from the University. 

All the letter tells me is that there was not sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges againsed the accused.  It does not exonerate them nor does it prove the alleged victim is lying either.  The evidence may only prove that a rape occurred by a preponderence of the evidence or some lesser standard.  Regardles, the University and the athletes do not want to pursue this and likely the girl and her family don't either.  Everyone probably wants it to go away and forget it ever happened. 

Please, do not confuse this with the Duke case.  They are not similar at all.

I know a little bit about sexual assault and rape cases and a lot of the posters here are absolutely oblivious on how they work.  In short, it is very difficult to prosecute rape cases and it usually requires physical evidence that a rape occurred.  Most often the victims go home, take showers and try to clean themselves and wait before coming forward, if they ever do. 

In my experience, the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults go unprosecuted.  Doesn't mean they do not happen. 

[twistitup]

I think a lot of posters are confusing the letter from the special prosecuter with the statement from the University. 

All the letter tells me is that there was not sufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges againsed the accused.  It does not exonerate them nor does it prove the alleged victim is lying either.  The evidence may only prove that a rape occurred by a preponderence of the evidence or some lesser standard.  Regardles, the University and the athletes do not want to pursue this and likely the girl and her family don't either.  Everyone probably wants it to go away and forget it ever happened. 

Please, do not confuse this with the Duke case.  They are not similar at all.

I know a little bit about sexual assault and rape cases and a lot of the posters here are absolutely oblivious on how they work.  In short, it is very difficult to prosecute rape cases and it usually requires physical evidence that a rape occurred.  Most often the victims go home, take showers and try to clean themselves and wait before coming forward, if they ever do. 

In my experience, the vast majority of rapes and sexual assaults go unprosecuted.  Doesn't mean they happen. 

In the U.S. people are INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY. No matter what you say, these guys are innocent of the crime they were accused of. 

[SLC]

In the U.S. people are INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY. No matter what you say, these guys are innocent of the crime they were accused of. 

Wow, that sounds so nice.  Naive, but nice.
Trust me, the players want this to to away, so does the girl. The best thing we can do is let it die.

[WilsonHog]

In the U.S. people are INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY. No matter what you say, these guys are innocent of the crime they were accused of. 

As was O.J. He was even acquitted.

[WilsonHog]

Trust me, the players want this to to away, so does the girl. The best thing we can do is let it die.

That is the absolute truth.