NFL and Spread QBs

[hoghiker]

"With so many college programs running the spread (offense), it becomes that much harder to find a quarterback that's NFL ready, so the league is at a crossroads and will either have to go to the spread or draft guys that are going to be bridge quarterbacks"
Quote from Cleveland Browns Coach Mike Pettine.
Does this help College Pro Set coaches recruit or is this just white noise radiating from cyber space? Does the NFL take the college route and go Spread?

[gawntrail]

First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option. 

The Run and Shoot is run from 'the spread' so, it seems the author is mixed up or just trying to knock down some column inches on a deadline without any real thought or research.

As to the point, NFL defenses will eat Read Option QBs up.  You can't spend the Millions on QBs to have DEs and OLBs put them out of the game in a year or two.  Too much speed, size, and violent hits for QBs to absorb.  Its why triple option isn't run in the NFL too.  Too much exposure.

[hoghiker]

"First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option." 

I guess I get your differentiation of terminology but an NFL coach used it in a context that I'm pretty sure he understood where he was going with it and what it meant to those he was talking to. College quarterbacks are coming into the League without the training to do what the League wants them to do.

[presidenthog]

First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option. 

The Run and Shoot is run from 'the spread' so, it seems the author is mixed up or just trying to knock down some column inches on a deadline without any real thought or research.

As to the point, NFL defenses will eat Read Option QBs up.  You can't spend the Millions on QBs to have DEs and OLBs put them out of the game in a year or two.  Too much speed, size, and violent hits for QBs to absorb.  Its why triple option isn't run in the NFL too.  Too much exposure.

First of all it wasn't an author it was a coach from a nfl coach I'm sure he is informed enough to know what spread means. What he is referring to is that "spread" qbs do not make checks at the line, do not make audibles, change protections, read coverages, or make reads/progressions. Everything is determined for them by the hc\of before the snap. They have very simple route trees\reads thus making the qbs not ready to do what the NFL expects them to do and they have no patience with teaching someone this. It is the same reason Tyler wilson didn't make it very long, because bobby was telling him what to do before every snap, where as mallett could make reads and adjustments and called his own audibles. I do not think the NFL will switch to telling a qb what to do before every snap and simplify their game. Since they already have seen how dominant you can be with a qb who can do it all.

[gawntrail]

"First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option." 

I guess I get your differentiation of terminology but an NFL coach used it in a context that I'm pretty sure he understood where he was going with it and what it meant to those he was talking to. College quarterbacks are coming into the League without the training to do what the League wants them to do.

#1 argument for a farm system AND why the $$$ are insane for draftees in the first round.  No NFL snaps and some of these kids are collecting what some players made their whole careers.

NCAA resembles HS FB more than NFL FB.  With the coaching limitations there is not enough time to teach QBs and receivers these complex passing/blocking/check/route option schemes.  Because of that, many HS and college coaches are looking at the QB position as another 'athlete' instead of a specialized 'cerebral' type position.  HS and college coaches are paid to win, not develop talent for the NFL. 

If the NFL wants QBs that are league ready they need to get 32 owners to agree to form and FUND a Farm System.

[gawntrail]

First of all it wasn't an author it was a coach from a nfl coach I'm sure he is informed enough to know what spread means. What he is referring to is that "spread" qbs do not make checks at the line, do not make audibles, change protections, read coverages, or make reads/progressions. Everything is determined for them by the hc\of before the snap. They have very simple route trees\reads thus making the qbs not ready to do what the NFL expects them to do and they have no patience with teaching someone this. It is the same reason Tyler wilson didn't make it very long, because bobby was telling him what to do before every snap, where as mallett could make reads and adjustments and called his own audibles. I do not think the NFL will switch to telling a qb what to do before every snap and simplify their game. Since they already have seen how dominant you can be with a qb who can do it all.

Pettine has been on the D side of the ball his whole NFL career.  And, this is the new OCs wiki career summary:

DeFilippo became quarterbacks coach at Fordham in 2000 upon graduating from James Madison.[3] The following year, DeFilippo enrolled at the University of Notre Dame to be a graduate assistant for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. In the 2001 season, DeFilippo helped coach wide receivers and tight ends on Bob Davie's staff, then in 2002 worked with quarterbacks under Tyrone Willingham.[9]

From 2003 to 2004, DeFilippo was again quarterbacks coach at a Division I-AA program in New York City, Columbia, under Bob Shoop. He then moved up to the NFL in 2005 as offensive quality control coach for the New York Giants under Tom Coughlin and held that position until 2006.[9] In 2007, DeFilippo joined Lane Kiffin's staff on the Oakland Raiders as quarterbacks coach and remained on staff in 2008 when Tom Cable replaced Kiffin during the season. DeFilippo became quarterbacks coach for the New York Jets under Rex Ryan in 2009.

DeFilippo returned to the college ranks in 2010 as quarterbacks coach at San Jose State under Mike MacIntyre. In 2011, DeFilippo also became offensive coordinator for San Jose State, in a season where San Jose State rose 32 places in national offensive rankings and improved to 5–7 from 1–12 last season.[9]

In 2012, DeFilippo returned to the Oakland Raiders as quarterbacks coach, first under Dennis Allen then Tony Sparano.

On January 21, 2015, DeFilippp was hired as the Cleveland Browns' new offensive coordinator.

To be honest, I'm not sure either of them know what they are talking about or sure about what they are doing.

New HC (D minded), an OC who has never called plays in the NFL, a QB on the verge of being a bust, another QB who is avg at best, and a very uptight fanbase wanting something to cheer about since being back..... 

[presidenthog]

The thing is I think they would be informed enough having being a dumb enough organization to take mr. Football, him being from a "spread" system, for them to know what these qbs are taught. Now I'm not arguing against your other points. Also I wasn't referring to them with a qb that can do it all. I was referring to the league as a whole knows how dominant a peyton manning or Brady can be.

[hogsanity]

There are more and more Qb's that can't even take a snap from center because they have never done it. Not in rinky dink, pee wee, jr high, hs, or some now even college. Some come from school systems where they are 5 wide every play. That is the spread he might have been talking about. What you run out of it is another story all together. They are shotgun all the time. No drop, just catch the snap and get it out.

[presidenthog]

Spread means that the formation is spread out. Going from the o line to the wide receivers being from side line to side line, but what is meant by a spread team is these teams that do not go under center, that run mainly simple bubble screens, read option, and most of these teams do not have a large repitioure of route tree options, concepts, and do not have a large amount of reads for the qb. Most of the HUNH teams have their oc signal to the qb where to go with the ball before the snap so really the qbs aren't being developed much more than they were in high school. Also in these systems I'm assuming that wrs being so far from the hand off out on the sidelines probably don't develop their blocking skills as much as nfl teams would like. Also if the qb isn't being taught to read coverages I'm assuming the wrs aren't being taught much either and I'm assuming the centers probably don't make as many calls as the teams in the NFL would like either.

[gawntrail]

We're on the same page.

I hate jargon being misapplied and NFL coaches or writers on an NFL beat misusing terminology is just sloppy. 

Jerry Glanville (sp?) ran Run and Shoot out of Spread concepts.  June Jones too.  Whoever ran that Buffalo Offense with Jim Kelly in the late 80s early 90s was a Spread R&S guy too.

The jargon schtick is just a pet peeve of mine.

[bphi11ips]

Good discussion thread.  +1 to all for debating without arguing.  +1 again in 30 minutes for accuracy

[havok]

Experience playing in both, under center and in shotgun/pistol formations is gonna be a bonus for Brandon Allen in evaluations for NFL. 

And if Brandon can make the same kind of progress over the summer as he did last summer.. He will get strong looks by NFL teams. 

[gawntrail]

Experience playing in both, under center and in shotgun/pistol formations is gonna be a bonus for Brandon Allen in evaluations for NFL. 

And if Brandon can make the same kind of progress over the summer as he did last summer.. He will get strong looks by NFL teams.

I've been very critical of BA.  I hope he scores high on the Wunderlik (sp?) and can show a few things in his proday workout that gives him a chance to draft very late or sign a free agent contract.  I've heard he's smart.  If he is AND can show coaches he can learn the play book and read defenses he has a pretty good chance of being a back up.  Maybe a couple of years on a practice squad and then maybe a shot. 

First, he has to have a break out year for us.

[presidenthog]

We're on the same page.

I hate jargon being misapplied and NFL coaches or writers on an NFL beat misusing terminology is just sloppy. 

Jerry Glanville (sp?) ran Run and Shoot out of Spread concepts.  June Jones too.  Whoever ran that Buffalo Offense with Jim Kelly in the late 80s early 90s was a Spread R&S guy too.

The jargon schtick is just a pet peeve of mine.

Absolutely and I agree. I think that the reason the word spread is used the way it is, is because teams who spread it out more often that not are using the space created as their advantage instead of using a very difficult route tree/progression offense as their way to move the ball. Basically they run a simplified offense that uses the spacing to make it difficult to stop rather than being complicated

[Mike_e]

If the teams winning it all are using traditional sets then there will be little change in the way most teams are run.

We might see a minor league put into play though.  Run them through six or eight games a season with lots of time to teach, practice and or rehab.  They could also take prospects straight out of high school as well as sign and place if they don't want to have a team for every NFL team as a cost savings.

It's always worked for MLB,if the could get together long enough to agree on it and place the minors in cities without NFL teams they could probably even break even on the deal.

[Josh Goforth]

Aaron Rogers was a spread guy fell in the draft and has do e pretty well in the NFL. Also it's interesting to hear people claim that pro style qbs have to check, etc more. There are some systems in both types that take away that responsibility
I would argue Peyton manning is a spread playaction qb who excels in 3 and 4 wr sets.

[hoghiker]

Ma

Aaron Rogers was a spread guy fell in the draft and has do e pretty well in the NFL. Also it's interesting to hear people claim that pro style qbs have to check, etc more. There are some systems in both types that take away that responsibility
I would argue Peyton manning is a spread playaction qb who excels in 3 and 4 wr sets.

Whatever the terminology, I think most people would agree that some college system fit the nfl system better: that is the college QBs skill set is already more transferable. I'm sure there are a rare few who are bright enough and physically gifted enough to over come this deficit. 

[Hoggish1]

First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option. 

The Run and Shoot is run from 'the spread' so, it seems the author is mixed up or just trying to knock down some column inches on a deadline without any real thought or research.

As to the point, NFL defenses will eat Read Option QBs up.  You can't spend the Millions on QBs to have DEs and OLBs put them out of the game in a year or two.  Too much speed, size, and violent hits for QBs to absorb.  Its why triple option isn't run in the NFL too.  Too much exposure.

This.

[hoghiker]

This.

The 'author' didn't make the quote, the coach did. I think most understand that, as currently configured, NFL QBs are to valuable to get slammed every other play. This  may not be the only reason, but surely a reason, NFL teams don't go to read option. The Pros need pro-set QBS. Do systems like Arkansas (maybe not a good example) have any advantages when recruiting elite HS QBs with dreams of NFL sparkling in their eyes? You'd think it would, right.

[Exit Pursued by a Boar]

As to the point, NFL defenses will eat Read Option QBs up.  You can't spend the Millions on QBs to have DEs and OLBs put them out of the game in a year or two.  Too much speed, size, and violent hits for QBs to absorb.  Its why triple option isn't run in the NFL too.  Too much exposure.

This.  A quarterback with escapability and the ability to run the occasional boot or draw or to scramble on a broken play is one thing and very desirable in the NFL.  One reason Russell Wilson is doing so well.  But getting hit almost every play by guys who can generate the kind of force and violence an NFL defender can produce isn't conducive to basing an offense around a run-first quarterback, especially in an offense designed to focus on making the defense ask the question, "is the QB running this time" play after play after play.  Such a QB will burn defenses for a while, but just break down eventually, and sooner rather than later.  The questions NFL coaches should be asking themselves when they see someone like Marcus Mariota, or Wilson, or Kapernick, or RGIII, or Cam Newton, is can this guy read defenses and can this guy step up into the pocket and deliver a bullet into tight spaces?  If he can do those things, the escapability factor is gravy.  I'm not savvy enough to judge any QB on these things individually, but NFL coaches better be.

EFBAB

[ChicoHog]

Aaron Rogers was a spread guy fell in the draft and has do e pretty well in the NFL. Also it's interesting to hear people claim that pro style qbs have to check, etc more. There are some systems in both types that take away that responsibility
I would argue Peyton manning is a spread playaction qb who excels in 3 and 4 wr sets.

Aaron rodgers was not a a spread guy growing up.  he played at the same HS my kids attended and the local JC where they did not and still do not run a spread system.  Tedford at Cal was mostly pro style although much was out of the shotgun ala FSU and Jumbo fisher. 

The discussion is correct however about the QBs not being experienced on calling plays, audibles, reading defenses, etc.,  There really has been no spread guy from college make it big in the NFL if you are talking about read option and Qbs/offenses like Baylor and Oregon use. I guess Cam Newton would qualify but that's it.  I like Mariotta and hope he does well for him but I hate Oregon and Baylor's offense so in a small way it makes me smile that those types of QBs have not been successful in the NFL.  And I really dislike Leach's offense and he has never had a guy come remotely close to NFL success. 

[DeltaBoy]

Historically Running QB in the past or "Spread QB's" today are different,  Roger Staubach , Fran Tarkington and Randell Cunningham were all scrambling/running QB's that could throw on the run and extend plays with their feet.  They never ran the read or any other option and even then they made D's account for them.  Today's guys are quite frail, RG 3 and such to too thinly built to run the rock in the NFL game today. D's today have way more speed than in the 1970's. So I don't see this type of QB having long or successful careers unless your built like Cam Newton or that 49er QB. 

[Cinco de Hogo]

Reading these post I guess the one thing I have learned is that Tyler Wilson must be pretty dumb.  Petrino's offense wasn't "spread" so if Tyler couldn't learn what he needed to learn in four years...

Maybe it's a talent issue, only a few players actually make the league and some spread Q's do.

[hoghiker]

Reading these post I guess the one thing I have learned is that Tyler Wilson must be pretty dumb.  Petrino's offense wasn't "spread" so if Tyler couldn't learn what he needed to learn in four years...

Maybe it's a talent issue, only a few players actually make the league and some spread Q's do.

Becoming an NFL starter, seems to me, requires talent, timing and some good fortune. Stars have to align sort of thing. QB goes down, you come in(Brady) You get years to watch  under a great one (Rogers) or things just fall right into place (Manning). All take some good circumstance.

[hogsanity]

Reading these post I guess the one thing I have learned is that Tyler Wilson must be pretty dumb.  Petrino's offense wasn't "spread" so if Tyler couldn't learn what he needed to learn in four years...

Maybe it's a talent issue, only a few players actually make the league and some spread Q's do.

After reading these posts, and so many over the years, I have decided the fans are pretty dumb. They can't differentiate between the spread, which is a formation, and a coaches offensive philosophy.  A philosophy can be run out of any formation. You can be in the spread and run the ball every play. You could be lined up in the power I and throw it every play.

[DeltaBoy]

My Point is that Team speed on D has pretty much negated running/ spread read option QB's no matter how good you were in college with the exceptions of Collin K from the 49's and Cam Newton who have the size to take the punishment.

[hogsanity]

My Point is that Team speed on D has pretty much negated running/ spread read option QB's no matter how good you were in college with the exceptions of Collin K from the 49's and Cam Newton who have the size to take the punishment.

I agree with that.Even Kapernick has been shut down a lot from his rookie year.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Again I've learned something.  In the NFL you have to be able to pass and you don't alway lineup under center and you usually have more than one receiver on the field so ALL NFL teams must be spread teams.

[DeltaBoy]

I agree with that.Even Kapernick has been shut down a lot from his rookie year.

Yep the NFL talent level is so high it only takes a year at the most to figure most gimmicks out. His OC going to have to do some tweaking to the system to get him back being dangerous.

[Cinco de Hogo]

Becoming an NFL starter, seems to me, requires talent, timing and some good fortune. Stars have to align sort of thing. QB goes down, you come in(Brady) You get years to watch  under a great one (Rogers) or things just fall right into place (Manning). All take some good circumstance.

So true.

[oldhawg]

Didn't Drew Brees play in a so-called "spread" offense at Purdue? 

[Josh Goforth]

Aaron rodgers was not a a spread guy growing up.  he played at the same HS my kids attended and the local JC where they did not and still do not run a spread system.  Tedford at Cal was mostly pro style although much was out of the shotgun ala FSU and Jumbo fisher. 

The discussion is correct however about the QBs not being experienced on calling plays, audibles, reading defenses, etc.,  There really has been no spread guy from college make it big in the NFL if you are talking about read option and Qbs/offenses like Baylor and Oregon use. I guess Cam Newton would qualify but that's it.  I like Mariotta and hope he does well for him but I hate Oregon and Baylor's offense so in a small way it makes me smile that those types of QBs have not been successful in the NFL.  And I really dislike Leach's offense and he has never had a guy come remotely close to NFL success. 

You are forgetting about Drew Brees, Kyle Orton, and Joe Flacco that used mostly true spread games. Also Ben Roethlisburger, and the borderline successful Jay Cutler.  Those would be spread qbs if you are not using it to mean zone read, or option football. If you are saying option, zone read then Cam Newton, and Kaepernick are the closest things to any semblance of success at the NFL level. Not much at all.   

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I've been very critical of BA.  I hope he scores high on the Wunderlik (sp?) and can show a few things in his proday workout that gives him a chance to draft very late or sign a free agent contract.  I've heard he's smart.  If he is AND can show coaches he can learn the play book and read defenses he has a pretty good chance of being a back up.  Maybe a couple of years on a practice squad and then maybe a shot. 

First, he has to have a break out year for us.

Yes, first things first. It would be great for BA if he garnered the attention of NFL scouts, but like any other player, if he takes care of business this Fall and produces at a high level, all of that will take care of itself. I'm certain that he realizes this and his focus is on being more productive in the coming season for the team and their goals.

[gawntrail]

Didn't Drew Brees play in a so-called "spread" offense at Purdue?

Yeah.  Under that genius OC....

[gawntrail]

Yep the NFL talent level is so high it only takes a year at the most to figure most gimmicks out. His OC going to have to do some tweaking to the system to get him back being dangerous.

Yes.  Exactly.  And, the gimmikiness of certain offensive wrinkles are negated by overall defensive team speed. 

The speed on defense when going from HS to D1 is memorizing.  I can't imagine the jump from college to the NFL.  QBs have to have both physical talent AND brain power.  Watching solid NFL QBs throw guys open with anticipation, placement, and strength/touch is ART.  Anybody can throw the hitch, out, slant, dig, post, corner, and/or go routes.... But, its someone special who can throw 'em against Pro Bowl DBs from a collapsing pocket.

[presidenthog]

The read option had one year of relevancy in the nfl, maybe two. Now defenses "scrape" to defend it and know how to defend it. It's not worth the risk to run it at that level. Also let's get this straight in the pros most teams run 3 WR 1 te sets and most throw  it and spread the defense out because the nfl is a qb leage. The rules make it much easier to throw it than ever and such has made it so that offensive personel  reflect that. And even if the offense plays spread out it is style a pro style system that is very demanding on the qb to make checks reads audibles and places a ton of pressure on them to make sure everything is set up for their team to succeed.

[razorback44]

We're on the same page.

I hate jargon being misapplied and NFL coaches or writers on an NFL beat misusing terminology is just sloppy. 

Jerry Glanville (sp?) ran Run and Shoot out of Spread concepts.  June Jones too.  Whoever ran that Buffalo Offense with Jim Kelly in the late 80s early 90s was a Spread R&S guy too.

The jargon schtick is just a pet peeve of mine.

You have reporters that cover the Hogs daily who did/do not know what X, Y and Z meant in regards to receivers or what something like 12 personnel means. That's equally bad IMO.  You should always know your subject when reporting, no matter what level you are.

[oldhawg]

Yeah.  Under that genius OC....

Whether because of, or in spite of, Brees has fared pretty well as a pro quarterback.

[acey33]

"First, I have a problem with giving any weight to an opinion that is uninformed.  The Spread is a formational term.  What the author is talking about is Read Option." 

I guess I get your differentiation of terminology but an NFL coach used it in a context that I'm pretty sure he understood where he was going with it and what it meant to those he was talking to. College quarterbacks are coming into the League without the training to do what the League wants them to do.

and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Only in the last couple of years a Rookie QB has started in the NFL. They always were sitting on the bench holding a clipboard or something else...lol and would get their chance to start after learning the system the team had.

[hoghiker]

and it's been that way for as long as I can remember. Only in the last couple of years a Rookie QB has started in the NFL. They always were sitting on the bench holding a clipboard or something else...lol and would get their chance to start after learning the system the team had.

Probably right with a little bit of a tweak. I do think that with the money they are paying high draft rookies that the level of expectation has been raised some. A chance to play in the NFL, even for those lucky enough to be drafted, is still a very elusive dream. 32 jobs. 300 million Americans. Lottery picks with lottery odds.

[SamBuckhart]

That AU QB got drafted as a DB. Or did he even get drafted? Werent they trying to promote him as a Heisman candidate at one time? Reminds me of when all those wishbone QBs tried to make it in the NFL. Rex Kern anyone?