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Let's be honest, now...

Started by Oklahawg, March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm

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pfrg999

Quote from: FLKeysGuy on March 17, 2006, 05:01:42 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:53:05 pm
Quote from: FLKeysGuy on March 17, 2006, 04:46:49 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:43:51 pm
Quote from: FLKeysGuy on March 17, 2006, 04:37:46 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:33:31 pm
So, Bill Self and Heath are bad coaches because they lost to Bucknell in the Tourney?


Hmmm... interesting thought, but I'd argue that if Heath were a better coach, we would have won some of those close games this season, and we wouldn't have had to play Bucknell in the 8 vs 9 matchup, would we?


True. However, you can't MAKE a shooter attend the UA. Jefferson was suppose to be a better shooter than he proved to be. The fact is that Heath did about everything he could in this game - and so did the players. Yes, we had poor FT shooting, but our rebounding, steals, and blocked shots made up for that and more. If Bucknell had their average game, we win. Pure and simple. You can't outcoach luck. Ask Georgetown in when they lost to NC State in the NCAA Torney.
Then maybe you can answer my question from earlier...
http://www.hogville.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,52828.msg615487.html#msg615487

If you mean the "press" question, I think it is because we were afraid it would not work. The press is a double-edged sword and we could have easily fallen out with a few open shots if the press did not work.

My only criticism is that we should have pounded them all day in the blocks and gotten some of their guys in foul trouble. With luck, maybe we could have gotten two or four more rebounds which could have swung the game.

However, back to the point. All thiongs being equal, if we hit our AVERAGE percentage of 3's, and Bucknell did as well, we would have run away with this game. You can't coach a lucky day.

I don't respect a coach who is "afraid" of implementing a strategy.  If the press proved ineffective, the coach could stop the press.  But not to have tried to wear out Bucknell's players earlier in the game by pressing seemed like a major coaching error.  Look at just how effective the press was when it was finally implemented late in the game.  With the exception of Dontell allowing a layup, it was extremely disruptive to them.  If we had done that throughout the first half, Bucknell's 7-man rotation would have been exhausted midway through the second half.  Exhausted players don't hit those "lucky" 3's as frequently.


Amen.... That is how we used to do the press.... Wear them down
Musician, Audio Engineer, Entertainment <br />Writer and Hardcore Razorback watching Hog Fan!!!

BigHog396

Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:19:07 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:56:44 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:43:49 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:22:46 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:06:59 pm
Stan is a good coach.  But, it's part of his job to put up with uninformed fans who want him fired after any loss. 
So, Stan, sorry you have to hear this crap all the time, but get used to it buddy.  We'll keep comparing you to other coaches, kicking you when you're down, and blaming you for not being Nolan.  God forbid we inform ourselves and give you credit for the good things you do.  Here at Hogville, players win games, but coaches lose them.
And what are you basing the "uninformed" comment on?  There are many very informed fans on this board that simply don't want to keep hearing "wait 'till next year".  A good coach doesn't have to rebuild at a program with the name of ARKANSAS.  A good coach uses the history of the program, the facilities that are second to none, and his recruiting ability to get players here that produce from the time they step on campus.
Fact:  Stan has improved our record and performance each game.

Fact:  When we went to a Box and 1 (I don't recall the game), and it worked and the announcers picked up on it, it became the cure all for any team scoring on us, and posters reamed Stan for not playing it.  I doubt most could describe it in detail

Fact:  Someone has started a fire Heath thread, or thrown it in another thread, after every loss.

Fact:  I have heard many lament that Stan can't coach, Stan doesn't call plays.  While they were posting, I saw a set play being run.  Conclusion:  Some people don't know a set play when they see one.  Further, they have no idea what a motion offense is, or how it works.

I'm not a Heath Hugger, things could have and should have been better this year.  But, come on, you're making the claim that no one gets on here and dumps on Stan for things that weren't his fault????  We are perfect, and he is to blame for everything??? Get real man.
No, you made a generalization that anyone "dumping" on Heath was uninformed.  There are many of us on here who know the game of basketball very well, and are simply tired of the excuses.  With a coach the quality of Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Lute Olson, or a number of others, we WOULD have been in much better shape this far into their coaching tenures.  Yes, it was nice to be back in the dance, but I am fed up with seeing the same mistakes made over and over again.  If you want to say we only have 7-8 players that are good enough to step on the court, and that is the reason we keep seeing these mistakes... fine, that proves my point.  Four years in at Arkansas, the talent level should be good enough that this is not the case.

Now you're making assumptions.  I've never said 'wait untill next year,' or Heath doesn't have the talent.  I've always said that he is a good coach, and I will stick by that until I am proven wrong. 
Show me ANY proof that Heath is a good coach.

 

HOGLUVIN

Show me ANY proof that Heath is a good coach.

same amount of NC as:

Bob Huggins
Steve Lavin
John Brady
Bruce Pearl
Etc, Etc, Etc

SupaCrawf

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 05:23:26 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:19:07 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:56:44 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:43:49 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:22:46 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:06:59 pm
Stan is a good coach.  But, it's part of his job to put up with uninformed fans who want him fired after any loss. 
So, Stan, sorry you have to hear this crap all the time, but get used to it buddy.  We'll keep comparing you to other coaches, kicking you when you're down, and blaming you for not being Nolan.  God forbid we inform ourselves and give you credit for the good things you do.  Here at Hogville, players win games, but coaches lose them.
And what are you basing the "uninformed" comment on?  There are many very informed fans on this board that simply don't want to keep hearing "wait 'till next year".  A good coach doesn't have to rebuild at a program with the name of ARKANSAS.  A good coach uses the history of the program, the facilities that are second to none, and his recruiting ability to get players here that produce from the time they step on campus.
Fact:  Stan has improved our record and performance each game.

Fact:  When we went to a Box and 1 (I don't recall the game), and it worked and the announcers picked up on it, it became the cure all for any team scoring on us, and posters reamed Stan for not playing it.  I doubt most could describe it in detail

Fact:  Someone has started a fire Heath thread, or thrown it in another thread, after every loss.

Fact:  I have heard many lament that Stan can't coach, Stan doesn't call plays.  While they were posting, I saw a set play being run.  Conclusion:  Some people don't know a set play when they see one.  Further, they have no idea what a motion offense is, or how it works.

I'm not a Heath Hugger, things could have and should have been better this year.  But, come on, you're making the claim that no one gets on here and dumps on Stan for things that weren't his fault????  We are perfect, and he is to blame for everything??? Get real man.
No, you made a generalization that anyone "dumping" on Heath was uninformed.  There are many of us on here who know the game of basketball very well, and are simply tired of the excuses.  With a coach the quality of Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Lute Olson, or a number of others, we WOULD have been in much better shape this far into their coaching tenures.  Yes, it was nice to be back in the dance, but I am fed up with seeing the same mistakes made over and over again.  If you want to say we only have 7-8 players that are good enough to step on the court, and that is the reason we keep seeing these mistakes... fine, that proves my point.  Four years in at Arkansas, the talent level should be good enough that this is not the case.

Now you're making assumptions.  I've never said 'wait untill next year,' or Heath doesn't have the talent.  I've always said that he is a good coach, and I will stick by that until I am proven wrong. 
Show me ANY proof that Heath is a good coach.

We have improved year after year.  Not at a great rate, but progress is progress.  Note I didn't say great coach, just good.  He is a great recruiter, which is part of a coaches job.  If he can develop that talent better, and keep get his guys to buy into his system, he might make the jump and take us to the level we need to be.
I'm kind of a big deal.

HOGLUVIN

Well, I think that the point is that we dont really want to be honest. We dont want it to be over, but it is.

We want to be mad and we are ... just luv one another and say darn! one time collectively and move on to baseball and spring football. Well get back to bball in the fall...

BigHog396

Quote from: Kevin n Hog Heaven on March 17, 2006, 05:20:30 pm
It's funny how the same people who just love Nutt so much bash on Heath. Heath is doing just fine. He has improved EVERY year, Nutt has not. This years record was better than last. We made it to the tourney. It is an IMPROVEMENT. He graduates kids, Nolan did not. He didnt walk into this job with a plethora of talent like alot of new coaches do. He had to start from scratch here people. Why such the high standard for Heath yet Nutt can continually suck and always have homers all over his jock? Oh, and in case all you Nutt lovers need to be reminded his BEST year was with Ford's players. He walked in with some pretty decent talent and since then it's been a downward spiral.
I am not saying Nutt is a good coach by any means, but you can't even begin to compare the two.  Football had sucked since before we walked into the SEC, our tradition didn't mean anything here, and we simply couldn't recruit with the top 6 in the SEC.  Basketball is a totally different story.  We walked into the SEC and dominated.  You can't tell me recent history doesn't play a tremendous role in recruiting in BOTH sports.  And finally, if you think being in the top 2-3 in the SEC in Basketball is even remotely close to being as difficult as it is in Football, you are sadly mistaken.  Heath has had his time, and hasn't done much with it, Nutt at least gave us some semblance of respectibility in football in the SEC.  Will he be around if he doesn't make waves this coming season... NO, and neither should Heath.

BigHog396

March 17, 2006, 05:32:58 pm #56 Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 09:35:38 pm by BigHog396
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:27:19 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 05:23:26 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:19:07 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:56:44 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:43:49 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:22:46 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:06:59 pm
Stan is a good coach.  But, it's part of his job to put up with uninformed fans who want him fired after any loss. 
So, Stan, sorry you have to hear this crap all the time, but get used to it buddy.  We'll keep comparing you to other coaches, kicking you when you're down, and blaming you for not being Nolan.  God forbid we inform ourselves and give you credit for the good things you do.  Here at Hogville, players win games, but coaches lose them.
And what are you basing the "uninformed" comment on?  There are many very informed fans on this board that simply don't want to keep hearing "wait 'till next year".  A good coach doesn't have to rebuild at a program with the name of ARKANSAS.  A good coach uses the history of the program, the facilities that are second to none, and his recruiting ability to get players here that produce from the time they step on campus.
Fact:  Stan has improved our record and performance each game.

Fact:  When we went to a Box and 1 (I don't recall the game), and it worked and the announcers picked up on it, it became the cure all for any team scoring on us, and posters reamed Stan for not playing it.  I doubt most could describe it in detail

Fact:  Someone has started a fire Heath thread, or thrown it in another thread, after every loss.

Fact:  I have heard many lament that Stan can't coach, Stan doesn't call plays.  While they were posting, I saw a set play being run.  Conclusion:  Some people don't know a set play when they see one.  Further, they have no idea what a motion offense is, or how it works.

I'm not a Heath Hugger, things could have and should have been better this year.  But, come on, you're making the claim that no one gets on here and dumps on Stan for things that weren't his fault????  We are perfect, and he is to blame for everything??? Get real man.
No, you made a generalization that anyone "dumping" on Heath was uninformed.  There are many of us on here who know the game of basketball very well, and are simply tired of the excuses.  With a coach the quality of Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Lute Olson, or a number of others, we WOULD have been in much better shape this far into their coaching tenures.  Yes, it was nice to be back in the dance, but I am fed up with seeing the same mistakes made over and over again.  If you want to say we only have 7-8 players that are good enough to step on the court, and that is the reason we keep seeing these mistakes... fine, that proves my point.  Four years in at Arkansas, the talent level should be good enough that this is not the case.

Now you're making assumptions.  I've never said 'wait untill next year,' or Heath doesn't have the talent.  I've always said that he is a good coach, and I will stick by that until I am proven wrong. 
Show me ANY proof that Heath is a good coach.

We have improved year after year.  Not at a great rate, but progress is progress.  Note I didn't say great coach, just good.  He is a great recruiter, which is part of a coaches job.  If he can develop that talent better, and keep get his guys to buy into his system, he might make the jump and take us to the level we need to be.
How the heck do you come up with "he's a great recruiter"?  Who do we have on campus that makes you think he is such a great recruiter.  Heck, I wouldn't even call him an average recruiter.

SupaCrawf

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 05:32:58 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:27:19 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 05:23:26 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 05:19:07 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:56:44 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:43:49 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 04:22:46 pm
Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:06:59 pm
Stan is a good coach.  But, it's part of his job to put up with uninformed fans who want him fired after any loss. 
So, Stan, sorry you have to hear this crap all the time, but get used to it buddy.  We'll keep comparing you to other coaches, kicking you when you're down, and blaming you for not being Nolan.  God forbid we inform ourselves and give you credit for the good things you do.  Here at Hogville, players win games, but coaches lose them.
And what are you basing the "uninformed" comment on?  There are many very informed fans on this board that simply don't want to keep hearing "wait 'till next year".  A good coach doesn't have to rebuild at a program with the name of ARKANSAS.  A good coach uses the history of the program, the facilities that are second to none, and his recruiting ability to get players here that produce from the time they step on campus.
Fact:  Stan has improved our record and performance each game.

Fact:  When we went to a Box and 1 (I don't recall the game), and it worked and the announcers picked up on it, it became the cure all for any team scoring on us, and posters reamed Stan for not playing it.  I doubt most could describe it in detail

Fact:  Someone has started a fire Heath thread, or thrown it in another thread, after every loss.

Fact:  I have heard many lament that Stan can't coach, Stan doesn't call plays.  While they were posting, I saw a set play being run.  Conclusion:  Some people don't know a set play when they see one.  Further, they have no idea what a motion offense is, or how it works.

I'm not a Heath Hugger, things could have and should have been better this year.  But, come on, you're making the claim that no one gets on here and dumps on Stan for things that weren't his fault????  We are perfect, and he is to blame for everything??? Get real man.
No, you made a generalization that anyone "dumping" on Heath was uninformed.  There are many of us on here who know the game of basketball very well, and are simply tired of the excuses.  With a coach the quality of Roy Williams, Rick Pitino, Lute Olson, or a number of others, we WOULD have been in much better shape this far into their coaching tenures.  Yes, it was nice to be back in the dance, but I am fed up with seeing the same mistakes made over and over again.  If you want to say we only have 7-8 players that are good enough to step on the court, and that is the reason we keep seeing these mistakes... fine, that proves my point.  Four years in at Arkansas, the talent level should be good enough that this is not the case.

Now you're making assumptions.  I've never said 'wait untill next year,' or Heath doesn't have the talent.  I've always said that he is a good coach, and I will stick by that until I am proven wrong. 
Show me ANY proof that Heath is a good coach.

We have improved year after year.  Not at a great rate, but progress is progress.  Note I didn't say great coach, just good.  He is a great recruiter, which is part of a coaches job.  If he can develop that talent better, and keep get his guys to buy into his system, he might make the jump and take us to the level we need to be.
How the F--- do you come up with "he's a great recruiter"?  Who the hell do we have on campus that makes you think he is such a great recruiter.  Heck, I wouldn't even call him an average recruiter.
Good point, Brewer sucks.  And, it is REALLY easy to recruit players to a school that is labeled as rascist when most of your target players are black.  And then to secure another solid class after a losing season, hell, anyone can do that.  You've changed my mind.  Especially since we don't have any good recruits coming in...  Sonny Weems sucks, so I hear.
I'm kind of a big deal.

BigHog396

Brewer had nothing to do with Heath.  As long as Nolan was gone, Brewer was a lock.  As far as Weems is concerned, the jury is still out.  He may be great, but this staff touted Dontell Jefferson as the best JUCO player in the nation when he was signed.  Don't think that one turned out so well, how about you?

It takes a whole lot more than 1 player in 4 years to make a great recruiter.  Come back and talk when you have some logic to your arguments.

jabohog

Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 17, 2006, 04:06:59 pm
Stan is a good coach.  But, it's part of his job to put up with uninformed fans who want him fired after any loss. 
So, Stan, sorry you have to hear this crap all the time, but get used to it buddy.  We'll keep comparing you to other coaches, kicking you when you're down, and blaming you for not being Nolan.  God forbid we inform ourselves and give you credit for the good things you do.  Here at Hogville, players win games, but coaches lose them.
Oh Stan, boo hoo hoo! Go collect your big salary and know you got schooled by rooster poot U from the Patriot League. How's that for being informed? The only SEC team to be one and done. Maybe next year.

reh

This was NOT!!! about coaching - it was about playing!!!  And our players did not play - he can't go out there and shoot it for them and that was the problem - shooting - That said - If he decides to leave or if we decide him to leave - what about Scott Sutton?

BigHog396

Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:55:44 pm
Quote from: HOGLUVIN on March 17, 2006, 04:51:04 pm
Quote from: clemensrules01 on March 17, 2006, 04:49:54 pm
Street & Smith's Top 10 of Top 100 College Basketball College Programs
1 University of Kentucky Wildcats
2 University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) Bruins
3 University of North Carolina Tar Heels
4 University of Kansas Jayhawks
5 Duke University Blue Devils
6 Indiana University Hoosiers
7 University of Louisville Cardinals
8 Universtiy of Arkansas Razorbacks
9 Universtiy of Connecticut (UConn)
10 Universtiy of Cincinnati Bearcats


article dated 1974

In 1974, if Kentucky was ranked above Kentucky in that article, that article isn't worth the paper it is published upon.

Also, as noted above, that article is from 2005 and is open to several criteria that I would have weighted differently.  Also, take out Nolan years and we are nowhere near that list.
OK, enough is enough.  You continue to prove your stupidity.  Why don't we take out Wooden's years at UCLA, and they are "nowhere near that list."  Just admit YOU are wrong, and get over it.  Also, I think you are the one that was saying we were nothing before Sutton.  Guess you didn't know about the 2 Final Four appearances in the 1940's.  We had been a very good team before Sutton, it was just a very long drought.

hoggin das

Heath was left with NOTHING  in the cupboard. The team has gotten better every year. We are on a trajectory to win 25 games and get to the sweet 16 next year.

We missed free throws because of NCAAT inexperience and lack of poise, nor poor coaching. Bucknell had the experience and the poise. They had their best 3-pt shooting night of the year. Some of that can be attributed to the Hogs' defense but not all of it.

 

Hawgdawgrain

Quote from: Oklahawg on March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm
This loss was the result of piss pour coaching by our NAIA-caliber coach.

Good coaches preach "little" things like free throw shooting. If we are half as good as we think we'd have better results from the line. This alone cost us today.

Good coaches find solutions. Bucknell was gasping for air a couple of different times. A logical time to press. A logical time to drop the hammer. Not if you are Stan Heath.

There was no clue what to do with a very good defensive team guarding us. Not, at least, if you are even more clueless. The win streak that gave us false hope was built by letting the players play. They were tentative and unimaginative.

Good coaches (hell, bad coaches) know enough to get plays for your playmakers. Where were the calls for Ronnie or Modica?

Send this homer packing for Kutztown State. I will not watch, listen, or in any way support his lame attempts at division one basketball.

Too bad. I love the players he's collected. I love my Hogs. I can't endure the pain any longer.

And, no, I NEVER got this down on Houston Nutt. Yes, I was ready for HDN to go for a while last fall. But, he managed to figure it out. Maybe have it figured out for him. Lucky? Maybe. Fortunate? Certainly. Smart? Smarter than Heath.

Maybe Mrs. Heath wants out of town so bad he'll take a step backward in his career to appease her. It would allow me to be a basketball fan once again.

Congrats to the players for working hard and coming together to go dancing. Sorry you are coached by an idiot.

Responses to your points...

POINT #1: In my 14 years of playing basketball, (3 years Div. III), I never saw a coach shoot a free throw.

POINT #2: I agree, we should have pressed more.

POINT #3: How did Health keep his guys from being "unimaginative"? Was that an alley-oop reverse slam by Brewer I saw? That's fairly imaginative...

POINT #4: Pookie scored 19...Brewer had a down game from the field but shot great from the line. The problem was Fergy not hitting from the outside and NO ONE making free throws. That was the difference in this game.

POINT #5: Never watch again??? So, we lose a Hog fan over this? I question the legitimacy of your support to begin with.

POINT #6: Nutt figured it out?? Last fall? Not during the season he didn't...4-7. The hirings and recruiting class suggest he's figured it out...we'll see.

POINT #7: Refer to point #5.

POINT #8: Congrats to the players as well and a coach that finally got them over the nightmare left by Nolan.

GO HOGS...SEC Basketball Champs 2007

BigHog396

March 17, 2006, 08:36:24 pm #64 Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 09:30:01 pm by BigHog396
"We missed free throws because of NCAAT inexperience"

That has to be one of the most illogical statements I have EVER seen posted on this board.  It's 15 feet at BWA, it's 15 feet at my house, it's 15 feet in the AAC.  Give me a break.

hoggin das

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 08:36:24 pm
"We missed free throws because of NCAAT inexperience"

That has to be one of the most assanine statements I have EVER seen posted on this board.  It's 15 feet at BWA, it's 15 feet at my house, it's 15 feet in the AAC.  Give me a darned break.

You sir, are a fool. The pressure in the NCAAT is 100X what it is in your driveway.

BigHog396

Quote from: hoggin das on March 17, 2006, 08:46:34 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 17, 2006, 08:36:24 pm
"We missed free throws because of NCAAT inexperience"

That has to be one of the most assanine statements I have EVER seen posted on this board.  It's 15 feet at BWA, it's 15 feet at my house, it's 15 feet in the AAC.  Give me a darned break.

You sir, are a fool. The pressure in the NCAAT is 100X what it is in your driveway.
It's called a "free" throw for a reason.  Our players were experienced.  There is NO excuse for seniors missing that many free throws, whether it is in BWA or anywhere else.  Bucknell shot what, 90% from the line?  Pressure doesn't make any difference IF you are a good shooter.  If you are too dumb to know that, bite me.

FLKeysGuy

Quote from: hoggin das on March 17, 2006, 08:46:34 pm
You sir, are a fool. The pressure in the NCAAT is 100X what it is in your driveway.

That may be true, but it's the same pressure felt by all teams... why do some teams shoot 80% from the foul line if pressure is the issue?

Flatfoot

Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:37:13 pm
Quote from: SultanofSwine on March 17, 2006, 04:35:27 pm
One for sure is and I am not completely impressed with Self.

Well, bith are better than Pittino, using your criteria. Pittino didn't even make the tourney.

Yeah did you see how many injuries Louisville had this year.  Not Rick's fault.  

Just makes me wonder.  Idiots always seems to defend idiots or is it morons.  I just can't figure it out.  Why don't you help me Salvaboar.  
Thank God for Hogville.  I get my Hog Therapy here everyday.

Topcat

Quote from: stan the man on March 17, 2006, 04:55:54 pm
When  our opponents hit three's like they did in our last two games we, more than likely will loose every game.  If teams during our winning streak would have done the same we would not have won them either.
The fact that Bucknell worked really hard getting open 3 point shots,they deserved to win.  They certainly worked much harder on offense than we did.  We knew going in they had good 3 point shooters but somehow didn't defend them very well.  The real problem is that we cannot shoot free throws when the chips are down.  I really thought we were going to win when we tied it late.  I hope that Townes gets used to riding the pine because chances are in the future that may be his destiny.  What an underacheiver!
Heath played Townes nine minutes and he scored six points. Ar would have won the game if Jefferson, Hunter, and Ferguson had anywhere close to the same production. As far as the 3 point shooters for Bucknell, saying "somehow didn't defend them very well" seems to be a gross understatement. AR got out-coached. Why try to beat a man at his own game?

jabohog

When you score 23 in the first half and 55 for the game, you played their game. I don't want to be negative about what we accomplished this year, but it is extremely frustrating to be the only team in the SEC to be one and done. Especially to Rooster Poot U in the Patriot League. I can hear Memphis' coach already talking darn about how Arkansas didn't need to be in the tourney after they pound Sucknell. I ain't a basketball guru, but it looked like Heath didn't allow the players to play their game. Poor FT shooting, no 3 pt defense, and I bet rebounding was terrible, especially in the last minutes of the game.

Snort and Squeal

Quote from: ballhog24 on March 17, 2006, 02:07:47 pm
Quote from: Oklahawg on March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm
I will not watch, listen, or in any way support his lame attempts at division one basketball.

I've always loved reading this lame statement, whether it's football, basketball, etc.

If everyone who made this statement on this and other boards were serious about it and not just blowing smoke, stands would be less than 1/2 full, arenas would be hollow.

I don't know if you folks who make this statement actually believe you're beating your chest and being "the man" or not. It'd be nice if some of you people could take a step back from your own delusions and see just how unintelligable statements like that make you seem.

You are right, but come on it's right after the game and how many times do we get caught up in the moment and each of us make the same statement??  It's hard not to after you just puked your guts out after that disgusting display of pee wee basketball.
Is it any coincidence that we bleed red???  I think not!

mutdog

Here's the way I see it.

1.  Heath's press seems to be effective and under control.  We don't seem to allow a lot of easy fast break points.  This is good.

2.  Heath really doesn't want to play the press game, but his talent forces him to. 

3.  It all boils down to we need more offensive type players.  The era of the 3 pointer is here.  Been here for a while now.  Heath likes to play the big man game.  Therefore, pressing is like, I guess the big man game doesn't work, so I have to resort to pressing.

4.  We have to have more pure shooters.  We need a shooting guard and true point guard.  If we get those, then maybe Heath's philosophy will work.

5.  But today, the press was the only answer. 

Oklahawg

Quote from: Hawgdawgrain on March 17, 2006, 08:34:48 pm
Quote from: Oklahawg on March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm
This loss was the result of piss pour coaching by our NAIA-caliber coach.

Good coaches preach "little" things like free throw shooting. If we are half as good as we think we'd have better results from the line. This alone cost us today.

Good coaches find solutions. Bucknell was gasping for air a couple of different times. A logical time to press. A logical time to drop the hammer. Not if you are Stan Heath.

There was no clue what to do with a very good defensive team guarding us. Not, at least, if you are even more clueless. The win streak that gave us false hope was built by letting the players play. They were tentative and unimaginative.

Good coaches (hell, bad coaches) know enough to get plays for your playmakers. Where were the calls for Ronnie or Modica?

Send this homer packing for Kutztown State. I will not watch, listen, or in any way support his lame attempts at division one basketball.

Too bad. I love the players he's collected. I love my Hogs. I can't endure the pain any longer.

And, no, I NEVER got this down on Houston Nutt. Yes, I was ready for HDN to go for a while last fall. But, he managed to figure it out. Maybe have it figured out for him. Lucky? Maybe. Fortunate? Certainly. Smart? Smarter than Heath.

Maybe Mrs. Heath wants out of town so bad he'll take a step backward in his career to appease her. It would allow me to be a basketball fan once again.

Congrats to the players for working hard and coming together to go dancing. Sorry you are coached by an idiot.

Responses to your points...

POINT #1: In my 14 years of playing basketball, (3 years Div. III), I never saw a coach shoot a free throw.

POINT #2: I agree, we should have pressed more.

POINT #3: How did Health keep his guys from being "unimaginative"? Was that an alley-oop reverse slam by Brewer I saw? That's fairly imaginative...

POINT #4: Pookie scored 19...Brewer had a down game from the field but shot great from the line. The problem was Fergy not hitting from the outside and NO ONE making free throws. That was the difference in this game.

POINT #5: Never watch again??? So, we lose a Hog fan over this? I question the legitimacy of your support to begin with.

POINT #6: Nutt figured it out?? Last fall? Not during the season he didn't...4-7. The hirings and recruiting class suggest he's figured it out...we'll see.

POINT #7: Refer to point #5.

POINT #8: Congrats to the players as well and a coach that finally got them over the nightmare left by Nolan.

GO HOGS...SEC Basketball Champs 2007

You're killing me.

#1. What does having sat on the bench for a Div III school have to do with watching a game and making astute comments about the shortcomings of a team? Hint: my underdog status compared to your experience is negated by the fact that the weaknesses from today's game are the same weaknesses Heath has shown since day one. Today's game was virtually indentical to any number of near misses during his tenure.

#2. Give me Nolan coaching the team he would have had (if he had returned for one more year) vs. Heath and this year's team. Yep. I believe that the talent would have been matched up more successfully with a system (any system) and would beat Heath's team. Its really idle speculation on everyone to pit Nolan against Heath and talent vs. talent. But, part of what made Nolan a great coach was putting players on the court in a functional system.

#2a. I do think that Heath has an equitable (if not superior) amount of talent as what Nolan appeared to have lined up for the "next year". I am convinced that even the Nolan from the bitter end would coach circles around Heath.

#3. You are right, coaches don't shoot free throws. Coaches do teach technique and are responsible for stressing the importance of free throws.

#4. I'm not some lame-ass fan who has a curfew and still pops pimples in place of a social life. My first Razorback experience was UT-UA in 1969. I've been to virtually every in-state FB game since. I was at virtually every in-state hoops game from 1983 to 1991. I have the experience with the university to know that our history deserves a better coach than we have right now.

#5. Nutt has achieved more than Heath. Nutt struggled, fought change, conceded and has set the table for a great run. Nutt isn't a great coach. He is smart enough to know that all isn't well in Whoville and that something must be done. I'm not sure Heath realizes that.

#6. Its unfair to compare Nutt to Heath. My fault for introducing the topic, I suppose. I give Nutt some latitude because you can't rebuild a football team overnight. You can rebuild a basketball team with one recruiting class. It doesn't require great talent, just a gameplan on the court married to a gameplan on the recruiting trail. It requires the recruitment of a complete starting lineup (hey, Stan, any plans on recruiting a point guard, or will you hope that they transfer in every couple of years?) with complimentary skills. Hey! Here's an idea--recruit a pure scorer. He doesn't have to be a 5-star, all-world recruit. Can you imagine what a Pat Bradley (heck, Ernie Murry) would have done for this team?

#7. I see Modica's points like I see most of A-Rod or Ken Griffey Jr.'s home runs--idle effort. Outside of the late free throws I don't recall Modica scoring to stop a run or torque up some momentum. Hill did that better than anyone today. Go figure. Even Brewer, as absent as his offense was most of the day, did that with a couple of his obligatory highlight reel plays.

#8. What got many of the hardcore anti-HDN folks back on the Nutt Bus was the recognition that HDN did something to move the program forward. By whatever means it happened. When Heath shows that to me I'll be back. I suspect that Heath will be at another school before the hoops team is back to pre-Heath levels of success.

#9. That Top 10 list is interesting, isn't it? Its really a big 4 and then the rest, though: Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke and UCLA. Kansas? I don't put them in the top 4. They are a clearly a notch back. Louisville? Another notch back. I think Okie State is right there with Louisville, given the success under Iba and again with Sutton(s).
I am a Hog fan. I was long before my name was etched, twice, on the sidewalks on the Hill. I will be long after Sam Pittman and Eric Mussleman are coaches, and Hunter Yuracheck is AD. I am a Hog fan when we win, when we lose and when we don't play. I love hearing the UA band play the National Anthem on game day, but I sing along to the Alma Mater. I am a Hog fan.<br /><br />A liberal education is at the heart of a civil society, and at the heart of a liberal education is the act of teaching. - Bart Giamatti <br /><br />"It is a puzzling thing. The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." ― Robert M. Pirsig<br /><br />Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too.  – Yogi Berra

 

Hawgdawgrain

Quote from: Oklahawg on March 17, 2006, 09:55:23 pm
Quote from: Hawgdawgrain on March 17, 2006, 08:34:48 pm
Quote from: Oklahawg on March 17, 2006, 01:52:16 pm
This loss was the result of piss pour coaching by our NAIA-caliber coach.

Good coaches preach "little" things like free throw shooting. If we are half as good as we think we'd have better results from the line. This alone cost us today.

Good coaches find solutions. Bucknell was gasping for air a couple of different times. A logical time to press. A logical time to drop the hammer. Not if you are Stan Heath.

There was no clue what to do with a very good defensive team guarding us. Not, at least, if you are even more clueless. The win streak that gave us false hope was built by letting the players play. They were tentative and unimaginative.

Good coaches (hell, bad coaches) know enough to get plays for your playmakers. Where were the calls for Ronnie or Modica?

Send this homer packing for Kutztown State. I will not watch, listen, or in any way support his lame attempts at division one basketball.

Too bad. I love the players he's collected. I love my Hogs. I can't endure the pain any longer.

And, no, I NEVER got this down on Houston Nutt. Yes, I was ready for HDN to go for a while last fall. But, he managed to figure it out. Maybe have it figured out for him. Lucky? Maybe. Fortunate? Certainly. Smart? Smarter than Heath.

Maybe Mrs. Heath wants out of town so bad he'll take a step backward in his career to appease her. It would allow me to be a basketball fan once again.

Congrats to the players for working hard and coming together to go dancing. Sorry you are coached by an idiot.

Responses to your points...

POINT #1: In my 14 years of playing basketball, (3 years Div. III), I never saw a coach shoot a free throw.

POINT #2: I agree, we should have pressed more.

POINT #3: How did Health keep his guys from being "unimaginative"? Was that an alley-oop reverse slam by Brewer I saw? That's fairly imaginative...

POINT #4: Pookie scored 19...Brewer had a down game from the field but shot great from the line. The problem was Fergy not hitting from the outside and NO ONE making free throws. That was the difference in this game.

POINT #5: Never watch again??? So, we lose a Hog fan over this? I question the legitimacy of your support to begin with.

POINT #6: Nutt figured it out?? Last fall? Not during the season he didn't...4-7. The hirings and recruiting class suggest he's figured it out...we'll see.

POINT #7: Refer to point #5.

POINT #8: Congrats to the players as well and a coach that finally got them over the nightmare left by Nolan.

GO HOGS...SEC Basketball Champs 2007

You're killing me.

#1. What does having sat on the bench for a Div III school have to do with watching a game and making astute comments about the shortcomings of a team? Hint: my underdog status compared to your experience is negated by the fact that the weaknesses from today's game are the same weaknesses Heath has shown since day one. Today's game was virtually indentical to any number of near misses during his tenure.

#2. Give me Nolan coaching the team he would have had (if he had returned for one more year) vs. Heath and this year's team. Yep. I believe that the talent would have been matched up more successfully with a system (any system) and would beat Heath's team. Its really idle speculation on everyone to pit Nolan against Heath and talent vs. talent. But, part of what made Nolan a great coach was putting players on the court in a functional system.

#2a. I do think that Heath has an equitable (if not superior) amount of talent as what Nolan appeared to have lined up for the "next year". I am convinced that even the Nolan from the bitter end would coach circles around Heath.

#3. You are right, coaches don't shoot free throws. Coaches do teach technique and are responsible for stressing the importance of free throws.

#4. I'm not some lame-ass fan who has a curfew and still pops pimples in place of a social life. My first Razorback experience was UT-UA in 1969. I've been to virtually every in-state FB game since. I was at virtually every in-state hoops game from 1983 to 1991. I have the experience with the university to know that our history deserves a better coach than we have right now.

#5. Nutt has achieved more than Heath. Nutt struggled, fought change, conceded and has set the table for a great run. Nutt isn't a great coach. He is smart enough to know that all isn't well in Whoville and that something must be done. I'm not sure Heath realizes that.

#6. Its unfair to compare Nutt to Heath. My fault for introducing the topic, I suppose. I give Nutt some latitude because you can't rebuild a football team overnight. You can rebuild a basketball team with one recruiting class. It doesn't require great talent, just a gameplan on the court married to a gameplan on the recruiting trail. It requires the recruitment of a complete starting lineup (hey, Stan, any plans on recruiting a point guard, or will you hope that they transfer in every couple of years?) with complimentary skills. Hey! Here's an idea--recruit a pure scorer. He doesn't have to be a 5-star, all-world recruit. Can you imagine what a Pat Bradley (heck, Ernie Murry) would have done for this team?

#7. I see Modica's points like I see most of A-Rod or Ken Griffey Jr.'s home runs--idle effort. Outside of the late free throws I don't recall Modica scoring to stop a run or torque up some momentum. Hill did that better than anyone today. Go figure. Even Brewer, as absent as his offense was most of the day, did that with a couple of his obligatory highlight reel plays.

#8. What got many of the hardcore anti-HDN folks back on the Nutt Bus was the recognition that HDN did something to move the program forward. By whatever means it happened. When Heath shows that to me I'll be back. I suspect that Heath will be at another school before the hoops team is back to pre-Heath levels of success.

#9. That Top 10 list is interesting, isn't it? Its really a big 4 and then the rest, though: Kentucky, North Carolina, Duke and UCLA. Kansas? I don't put them in the top 4. They are a clearly a notch back. Louisville? Another notch back. I think Okie State is right there with Louisville, given the success under Iba and again with Sutton(s).

Listen my friend...since you made it personal...I didn't sit the bench. HAHA

1) The fact still remains that "the players" missed the freebies...period. Do you think Stan spends time with them in practice on free throws??? How do the following FACTS strike you? Here are the last 5 years FT percentages for the Hogs...

69.2 - HEATH - 2005-2006
66.3 - HEATH - 2004-2005
67.9 - HEATH - 2003-2004
60.9 - HEATH - 2002-2003
65.2 - NOLAN - 2001-2002

If you blame Heath for the poor free throw shooting on this team, your opinion is not based on FACT...if that's where you want to dwell, so be it.

2) When did I call you "lameass"...I just think you're wrong.

3) You said "Nutt has acheived more than Heath."...

FACT:
Houston Nutt's Record @ Arkansas
1998 - 9-3
1999 - 8-4
2000 - 6-6
2001 - 7-5
2002 - 9-5
2003 - 9-4
2004 - 5-6
2005 - 4-6

FACT: Stan Heath's record @ Arkansas
2002-2003 - 9-19
2003-2004 - 12-16
2004-2005 - 18-12
2005-2006 - 22-10

QUESTION: Which trend is more encouraging?

My biggest point is that Stan Heath didn't lose that game today. He may have made some poor coaching decisions (not enough press) but he didn't lose it. Our players lost it...I love 'em...but they didn't make their free throws and couldn't defend the three.


Salvaboar Dali


Hoggy Bear

Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.

mikeirwin

Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:24:49 pm
The truth is, when Nolan was at his peak, we were a top-5 program. When Eddie was coach, we were a top-25 program. Take those two out and we are not even on the historical radar. We have as much right to be called an all-time "Top-10" program as UCONN, UTEP, LaSalle, Villanova, or any other 1-time National Basketball Champion.
Believe it or not this school played a lot of basketball BEFORE Eddie and Nolan arrived. Glen Rose was one of the top coaches in the country in his day.
Where this program belongs all time (numbers wise) is a totally subjective argument. There is no question that historically Arkansas is one of the better NCAA basketball programs.

Salvaboar Dali

Quote from: mikeirwin on March 18, 2006, 09:38:20 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:24:49 pm
The truth is, when Nolan was at his peak, we were a top-5 program. When Eddie was coach, we were a top-25 program. Take those two out and we are not even on the historical radar. We have as much right to be called an all-time "Top-10" program as UCONN, UTEP, LaSalle, Villanova, or any other 1-time National Basketball Champion.
Believe it or not this school played a lot of basketball BEFORE Eddie and Nolan arrived. Glen Rose was one of the top coaches in the country in his day.
Where this program belongs all time (numbers wise) is a totally subjective argument. There is no question that historically Arkansas is one of the better NCAA basketball programs.

But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.

BigHog396

Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Salvaboar Dali

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Then why were they a #9 seed and we a #8? Why were they ranked earlier in the season?

Bucknell was better than you are willing to admit.

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Brandon Rush, Julian Wright, and Mario Chalmers were also 3 of the top 25 high school players in America last year.  Plus Micah Downs was a top 50 player last year too.  You know whose Heath's freshmen were? 

Modica, Furguson, and Davis.  Dionesio Gomez and Blake Eddins were starters for Christ's sake!  And you wanna compare the 2?  Sounds like Bill Self underachieved more than Stan Heath did.

BigHog396

March 18, 2006, 01:45:36 pm #82 Last Edit: March 26, 2006, 09:26:56 pm by BigHog396
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 18, 2006, 10:23:51 am
Quote from: mikeirwin on March 18, 2006, 09:38:20 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 17, 2006, 04:24:49 pm
The truth is, when Nolan was at his peak, we were a top-5 program. When Eddie was coach, we were a top-25 program. Take those two out and we are not even on the historical radar. We have as much right to be called an all-time "Top-10" program as UCONN, UTEP, LaSalle, Villanova, or any other 1-time National Basketball Champion.
Believe it or not this school played a lot of basketball BEFORE Eddie and Nolan arrived. Glen Rose was one of the top coaches in the country in his day.
Where this program belongs all time (numbers wise) is a totally subjective argument. There is no question that historically Arkansas is one of the better NCAA basketball programs.

But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.
You can't take out coaches moron.  Again, that is like saying take out Wooden, and where would UCLA rank?  How about we take out Rupp and see where Kentucky ranks?  Maybe we should ignore the Iba and Sutton years for OSU, where does that leave them?  That is the DUMBEST way of trying to make an argument I have ever seen.  You can take away successful coaches from ANY program, and they are just going to be another UTEP or whatever.  Come back and get on this board when you find a little common sense.

Another thing... Who said we were a "perinneal" top 10 team, maybe you need to go get a dictionary so you understand the words you are using.  Street & Smith ranked us as #8 ALL-TIME, not perennial top 10, no one in the history of the game is a "perennial" top 10 team.  If you can't own up to simple facts, deal with it.

BigHog396

Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 01:43:30 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Brandon Rush, Julian Wright, and Mario Chalmers were also 3 of the top 25 high school players in America last year.  Plus Micah Downs was a top 50 player last year too.  You know whose Heath's freshmen were? 

Modica, Furguson, and Davis.  Dionesio Gomez and Blake Eddins were starters for Christ's sake!  And you wanna compare the 2?  Sounds like Bill Self underachieved more than Stan Heath did.
If you are dumb enough to try to make that an argument, you aren't even worth discussing this with.  By the way, the 3 Freshmen and 2 Sophomores for us would have to be Townes, Thomas, Hill, Olu, and Brewer.  If you don't think the talent there matches up with Kansas, you don't understand basketball.  Also, if you DO want to say the talent doesn't match, you still prove my point, because a good coach gets the talent on campus.

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:49:00 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 01:43:30 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Brandon Rush, Julian Wright, and Mario Chalmers were also 3 of the top 25 high school players in America last year.  Plus Micah Downs was a top 50 player last year too.  You know whose Heath's freshmen were? 

Modica, Furguson, and Davis.  Dionesio Gomez and Blake Eddins were starters for Christ's sake!  And you wanna compare the 2?  Sounds like Bill Self underachieved more than Stan Heath did.
If you are dumb enough to try to make that an argument, you aren't even worth discussing this with.  By the way, the 3 Freshmen and 2 Sophomores for us would have to be Townes, Thomas, Hill, Olu, and Brewer.  If you don't think the talent there matches up with Kansas, you don't understand basketball.  Also, if you DO want to say the talent doesn't match, you still prove my point, because a good coach gets the talent on campus.

You're the dumb one if you don't think having 4 of America's top 50 high school players is one the same level of Townes, Thomas, Olu, Ronnie, and Hill.  The Big 12 ain't even in the same league as the SEC from top to bottom either so comparing the records will do you no good.  Plus last time I checked, UA went undefeated against the Big 12 including one over Kansas this year.

BigHog396

March 18, 2006, 02:12:36 pm #85 Last Edit: March 18, 2006, 02:15:49 pm by BigHog396
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 01:53:31 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:49:00 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 01:43:30 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 01:36:12 pm
Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 07:48:25 am
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali
Are you a total dumb ass?  Did you see the rebuilding jobs ACCOMPLISHED by Bill Self and Roy Williams THIS YEAR.  There was not any time required for them to rebuild.  They are playing primarily FRESHMEN, and look what they have done.  It's amazing what a REAL coach can accomplish.  Was there any rebuilding required for us in '93.  We lost Day, Mayberry, Big O and others, and still made the Sweet 16 the next year.  IT SHOULD NOT TAKE 4 YEARS TO REBUILD AT ONE OF THE TOP 10 PROGRAMS IN NCAA HISTORY.

Last time I checked, Bill Self has about as good a chance to win this year NCAA's as Stan Heath does.  And Self lost to a 13 seed this year and an unknown Bucknell team last year.  At least this year's Bucknell team was ranked in the top 25 so we knew they were a good team.
Self did it starting 3 freshmen and 2 sophomores.  There is no comparison.  Look at what Heath did with that kind of youth.  He wasn't even able to sniff the NIT, much less WIN the Big 12 Championship.  And one other thing, Bucknell is NOT a good team, if we had played more than 5 minutes of basketball we would have won that game going away.

Brandon Rush, Julian Wright, and Mario Chalmers were also 3 of the top 25 high school players in America last year.  Plus Micah Downs was a top 50 player last year too.  You know whose Heath's freshmen were? 

Modica, Furguson, and Davis.  Dionesio Gomez and Blake Eddins were starters for Christ's sake!  And you wanna compare the 2?  Sounds like Bill Self underachieved more than Stan Heath did.
If you are dumb enough to try to make that an argument, you aren't even worth discussing this with.  By the way, the 3 Freshmen and 2 Sophomores for us would have to be Townes, Thomas, Hill, Olu, and Brewer.  If you don't think the talent there matches up with Kansas, you don't understand basketball.  Also, if you DO want to say the talent doesn't match, you still prove my point, because a good coach gets the talent on campus.

You're the dumb one if you don't think having 4 of America's top 50 high school players is one the same level of Townes, Thomas, Olu, Ronnie, and Hill.  The Big 12 ain't even in the same league as the SEC from top to bottom either so comparing the records will do you no good.  Plus last time I checked, UA went undefeated against the Big 12 including one over Kansas this year.
Recruiting rankings:  Brewer - 29, Famutimi - 16, Thomas - 49, Hill - 37, (Now if I understand simple math, that makes 4 of the nations TOP 50) Townes - 66, and DJ was touted as the #1 JUCO player in the nation coming in.  I don't think those ratings are anything to talk smack about.  Again, show me the under-achiever that is Bill Self when compared to Heath.  Come back when you can actually show some FACTS to support your measley opinions.

mikeirwin

Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 18, 2006, 10:23:51 am
But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.

Lucky ? What have you been smoking ?
Eddie Sutton took the job BECAUSE  he knew the school's history of success under Glen Rose and he knew about Arkansas fan base. I know this because I've talked to him about it. Luck had nothing to do with it.
Do you think Nolan just flipped a coin and decided to leave Tulsa for Arkansas? Again luck wasn't part of the equation.
By the way that UTEP statement is just plain ignorant.

pignatious





Also, we are not one of the top 10 programs all-time. Top 20, but not top 10.
[/quote]

Actually, we are the number 8 program of all-time. Look it up...
Freedom is never free.

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 02:12:36 pm
Recruiting rankings:  Brewer - 29, Famutimi - 16, Thomas - 49, Hill - 37, (Now if I understand simple math, that makes 4 of the nations TOP 50) Townes - 66, and DJ was touted as the #1 JUCO player in the nation coming in.  I don't think those ratings are anything to talk smack about.  Again, show me the under-achiever that is Bill Self when compared to Heath.  Come back when you can actually show some FACTS to support your measley opinions.

Mario Chalmers #2 point guard (#12 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Julian Wright  #1 small forward (#8 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Brandon Rush #2 small forward (#13 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Micah Downs #8 small forward (#28 overall) - 4 star

So let me edit my post.  Self had 4 of the top 30 high school players in America to sign last year to go with the 2004 class:

Russell Robinson #7 shooting guard (#27 overall) - 5 star
CJ Giles #7 center (# 62 overall) - 4 star
Sasha Kaun #4 center - 4 star (#34 overall) - 4 star
Darnell Jackson #12 power forward (#54 overall) - 4 star

Plus they got Roderick Stewart who is a 5 star shooting guard who doesn't even play a lot.

AND you still wanna argue that Kansas has less athletes and less caliber players than Arkansas?

Nobody said Dontell was the #1 Juco player coming in.  So when you come with more facts, then bring another argument.  Kansas had no business losing to Arkansas.  And they should've won the Big 12 with that weak conference schedule they have.

BigHog396

Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 02:50:01 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 02:12:36 pm
Recruiting rankings:  Brewer - 29, Famutimi - 16, Thomas - 49, Hill - 37, (Now if I understand simple math, that makes 4 of the nations TOP 50) Townes - 66, and DJ was touted as the #1 JUCO player in the nation coming in.  I don't think those ratings are anything to talk smack about.  Again, show me the under-achiever that is Bill Self when compared to Heath.  Come back when you can actually show some FACTS to support your measley opinions.

Mario Chalmers #2 point guard (#12 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Julian Wright  #1 small forward (#8 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Brandon Rush #2 small forward (#13 overall) - 5 star McDonalds AA
Micah Downs #8 small forward (#28 overall) - 4 star

So let me edit my post.  Self had 4 of the top 30 high school players in America to sign last year to go with the 2004 class:

Russell Robinson #7 shooting guard (#27 overall) - 5 star
CJ Giles #7 center (# 62 overall) - 4 star
Sasha Kaun #4 center - 4 star (#34 overall) - 4 star
Darnell Jackson #12 power forward (#54 overall) - 4 star

Plus they got Roderick Stewart who is a 5 star shooting guard who doesn't even play a lot.

AND you still wanna argue that Kansas has less athletes and less caliber players than Arkansas?

Nobody said Dontell was the #1 Juco player coming in.  So when you come with more facts, then bring another argument.  Kansas had no business losing to Arkansas.  And they should've won the Big 12 with that weak conference schedule they have.

When did I say Kansas' players weren't as good?  I said they didn't have the experience.  I also pointed out that we ALSO had 4 of the Top 50 players in the nation.  Again, a good coach gets those top 50 players, and I think Self has proven he can.  Heath took players of similar HS ranking, and didn't do squat with them.  There are the facts, so deal with it.

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 02:57:06 pm
When did I say Kansas' players weren't as good?  I said they didn't have the experience.  I also pointed out that we ALSO had 4 of the Top 50 players in the nation.  Again, a good coach gets those top 50 players, and I think Self has proven he can.  Heath took players of similar HS ranking, and didn't do squat with them.  There are the facts, so deal with it.

You can look at the numbers and see that they are NOT similar HS rankings.  Those are the facts.  He had 3 freaking McDonalds AA in this class alone!  Olu was the only one and he was coming off the ACL reconstruction surgery.  Sorry but your argument holds no weight.  Is Self a better coach at this point?  Sure.  But to say that they were on a level playing field when comparing the "underclassmen" is ridiculous.

SupaCrawf

Anyone else notice that when BigHog396 (is that your weight, just curious) can't defeat an arguement, he just says "hey, you don't even have an arguement," or "you're a dumbass."  It's that high quality insight that makes me think, 'hmm, wonder if this kid is 12 or 13?'
I'm kind of a big deal.

BigHog396

Quote from: SupaCrawf on March 18, 2006, 03:43:54 pm
Anyone else notice that when BigHog396 (is that your weight, just curious) can't defeat an arguement, he just says "hey, you don't even have an arguement," or "you're a dumbass."  It's that high quality insight that makes me think, 'hmm, wonder if this kid is 12 or 13?'
By the way, I guess you haven't bothered to read the posts, or you would have seen that I have brought up facts to contradict any arguments that anyone has tried to bring.

wallyhog

Quote from: Hawgndaaz on March 17, 2006, 02:10:47 pm
We just got beat by a team you have to GOOGLE to even know what part of the country it is located. Gonzaga is the only exception to this comment.


'nuff said
Have you been an idiot your entire life or was this post simply an exception?  Maybe YOU have no idea who or what Bucknell is but they are NOT unknown. Did you follow College Basketball last year or just jump on the bandwagon this year? They were in the big dance last year, we weren't. BTW they beat Villanova this year but you'd probably have to google them too.
Did we get out coached? NO question.

BigHog396

Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 03:09:46 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 02:57:06 pm
When did I say Kansas' players weren't as good?  I said they didn't have the experience.  I also pointed out that we ALSO had 4 of the Top 50 players in the nation.  Again, a good coach gets those top 50 players, and I think Self has proven he can.  Heath took players of similar HS ranking, and didn't do squat with them.  There are the facts, so deal with it.

You can look at the numbers and see that they are NOT similar HS rankings.  Those are the facts.  He had 3 freaking McDonalds AA in this class alone!  Olu was the only one and he was coming off the ACL reconstruction surgery.  Sorry but your argument holds no weight.  Is Self a better coach at this point?  Sure.  But to say that they were on a level playing field when comparing the "underclassmen" is ridiculous.
If you really believe there is that much difference in the #20 player and the #50 player in the nation, it shows how little you know about the game of basketball.  Was Scotty Thurman a top 50, don't think so; how about Corey Beck or Dwight Stewart, no and no; maybe Clint McDaniel or Roger Crawford, I don't think so.  When you are talking about top 100 players, the difference is often the coach they end up playing for.  If you watched Bryant Reeves in HS you would understand.  That guy was about as worthless as tits on a boar hog.  He never crossed the mid-court line, and simply dominated because he was playing against a bunch of guys smaller than me.  Eddie Sutton (see good coach) took the guy and turned him into a college super-star, and eventual NBA star.  Coaching makes all the difference in the world.

WILL CLINTON

Quote from: mikeirwin on March 18, 2006, 02:23:51 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 18, 2006, 10:23:51 am
But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.

Lucky ? What have you been smoking ?
Eddie Sutton took the job BECAUSE  he knew the school's history of success under Glen Rose and he knew about Arkansas fan base. I know this because I've talked to him about it. Luck had nothing to do with it.
Do you think Nolan just flipped a coin and decided to leave Tulsa for Arkansas? Again luck wasn't part of the equation.
By the way that UTEP statement is just plain ignorant.

While we are at it, I want to take out the following records by coaches at their respective schools and see where they are at.

Rupp-KY
Wooden-UCLA
Coach K-Duke
Smith-UNC
John Thompson-Georgetown
Izzo-Mich. St.
Knight-Indiana

While we are removing coaches and their records to make their school or team look worse let's try these:

Phil Jackson-Bulls
Spurrier-Florida
Bowden-Florida St
Aurbach-Celtics
Stoops-Oklahoma
Carrol-USC
Johnson-Cowboys
  the list goes on and on.  That was one of the truly dumbest statements ever on this message board.  If you take the best coaches away from their team and remove their records, we would all be "just another UTEP".
There is no sacred ground for the conquered.

Hoggy Bear

Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 04:07:00 pm
If you really believe there is that much difference in the #20 player and the #50 player in the nation, it shows how little you know about the game of basketball.  Was Scotty Thurman a top 50, don't think so; how about Corey Beck or Dwight Stewart, no and no; maybe Clint McDaniel or Roger Crawford, I don't think so.  When you are talking about top 100 players, the difference is often the coach they end up playing for.  If you watched Bryant Reeves in HS you would understand.  That guy was about as worthless as tits on a boar hog.  He never crossed the mid-court line, and simply dominated because he was playing against a bunch of guys smaller than me.  Eddie Sutton (see good coach) took the guy and turned him into a college super-star, and eventual NBA star.  Coaching makes all the difference in the world.

I am not discounting the efforts of the steals of a recruiting year.   Of course Thurman and D. Stewart were important pieces of the puzzle but I would argue that we don't win the national championship without Corliss.  Top players in basketball are different that top players in football.  You can't put 1 or 2 bluechips on the team in football and expect to win right away whereas you have a better chance to in basketball.

By bringing in the argument of Beck, Stewart, Crawford, etc, you're proving my point for me.  The supporting cast of the McD's AA of Kansas is/was better than Arkansas's the past 2 years.    You have McD's AA/5 star recruits riding the bench for Kansas and at Arkansas, you don't have that luxary.

Oklahawg

Quote from: dubyacee on March 18, 2006, 04:10:30 pm
Quote from: mikeirwin on March 18, 2006, 02:23:51 pm
Quote from: Salvaboar Dali on March 18, 2006, 10:23:51 am
But not a top-10 perinneal.
Take out Nolan and Sutton and we are just another UTEP. We were VERY LUCKY to attract coaches of their caliber when we did.

Lucky ? What have you been smoking ?
Eddie Sutton took the job BECAUSE  he knew the school's history of success under Glen Rose and he knew about Arkansas fan base. I know this because I've talked to him about it. Luck had nothing to do with it.
Do you think Nolan just flipped a coin and decided to leave Tulsa for Arkansas? Again luck wasn't part of the equation.
By the way that UTEP statement is just plain ignorant.

While we are at it, I want to take out the following records by coaches at their respective schools and see where they are at.

Rupp-KY
Wooden-UCLA
Coach K-Duke
Smith-UNC
John Thompson-Georgetown
Izzo-Mich. St.
Knight-Indiana

While we are removing coaches and their records to make their school or team look worse let's try these:

Phil Jackson-Bulls
Spurrier-Florida
Bowden-Florida St
Aurbach-Celtics
Stoops-Oklahoma
Carrol-USC
Johnson-Cowboys
  the list goes on and on.  That was one of the truly dumbest statements ever on this message board.  If you take the best coaches away from their team and remove their records, we would all be "just another UTEP".

Uh, Stoops at OU followed a few guys you might have heard of:  Bud Wilkinson, Chuck Fairbanks, and Barry Switzer. He is to OU what Tubby Smith is to Kentucky hoops--the latest in a long line.
I am a Hog fan. I was long before my name was etched, twice, on the sidewalks on the Hill. I will be long after Sam Pittman and Eric Mussleman are coaches, and Hunter Yuracheck is AD. I am a Hog fan when we win, when we lose and when we don't play. I love hearing the UA band play the National Anthem on game day, but I sing along to the Alma Mater. I am a Hog fan.<br /><br />A liberal education is at the heart of a civil society, and at the heart of a liberal education is the act of teaching. - Bart Giamatti <br /><br />"It is a puzzling thing. The truth knocks on the door and you say, 'Go away, I'm looking for the truth,' and so it goes away. Puzzling." ― Robert M. Pirsig<br /><br />Love is the most important thing in the world, but baseball is pretty good, too.  – Yogi Berra

BigHog396

Quote from: Hoggy Bear on March 18, 2006, 04:54:01 pm
Quote from: BigHog396 on March 18, 2006, 04:07:00 pm
If you really believe there is that much difference in the #20 player and the #50 player in the nation, it shows how little you know about the game of basketball.  Was Scotty Thurman a top 50, don't think so; how about Corey Beck or Dwight Stewart, no and no; maybe Clint McDaniel or Roger Crawford, I don't think so.  When you are talking about top 100 players, the difference is often the coach they end up playing for.  If you watched Bryant Reeves in HS you would understand.  That guy was about as worthless as tits on a boar hog.  He never crossed the mid-court line, and simply dominated because he was playing against a bunch of guys smaller than me.  Eddie Sutton (see good coach) took the guy and turned him into a college super-star, and eventual NBA star.  Coaching makes all the difference in the world.

I am not discounting the efforts of the steals of a recruiting year.   Of course Thurman and D. Stewart were important pieces of the puzzle but I would argue that we don't win the national championship without Corliss.  Top players in basketball are different that top players in football.  You can't put 1 or 2 bluechips on the team in football and expect to win right away whereas you have a better chance to in basketball.

By bringing in the argument of Beck, Stewart, Crawford, etc, you're proving my point for me.  The supporting cast of the McD's AA of Kansas is/was better than Arkansas's the past 2 years.    You have McD's AA/5 star recruits riding the bench for Kansas and at Arkansas, you don't have that luxary.
You should really go back and look at the original point of the posts that started all of this.  I wasn't trying to argue who has the better players, but I don't think there is THAT much of a difference.  However, I was saying that getting those players is what sets Self and Williams apart.  My point was that they didn't have to wait 5 years to replace the talent they lost.  They went out and recruited the best players out there.  Part of being a top tier coach is being a top tier recruiter, and Stan Heath is neither in my opinion.  That is why I keep saying you are making my point.  Kansas and North Carolina were both supposed to be decimated this year, and their coaches went out and got the job done (without taking 5 years), ours hasn't.

hoggin das

Quote from: FLKeysGuy on March 17, 2006, 08:59:25 pm
Quote from: hoggin das on March 17, 2006, 08:46:34 pm
You sir, are a fool. The pressure in the NCAAT is 100X what it is in your driveway.

That may be true, but it's the same pressure felt by all teams... why do some teams shoot 80% from the foul line if pressure is the issue?

The point is guys, if you've been to the tourney before, you typically aren't as nervous. Bucknell not only was there last year, but it was with virtually the same team and they won a game last year. It's common sense. It's like public speaking or anything Else. The first time is the hardest..