Vegas Line: Ark V. Bucknell

[HOGLUVIN]

 I think I heard it was 122 or 125

[qakhed]

ok, I got the spread and over and under stuff, but what is a parlee?

[HOGLUVIN]

you make a 2 part bet...

part 1 is hogs win by more than 4.5
part 2 total score is more than 122 pts for both teams.

you bet $10   if you get em both you get $25   pays 2.5 instead on just 1-1. but if you miss part of the bet you get nothing.

[iCalledThatHogBrotha!]

you make a 2 part bet...

part 1 is hogs win by more than 4.5
part 2 total score is more than 122 pts for both teams.

you bet $10   if you get em both you get $25   pays 2.5 instead on just 1-1. but if you miss part of the bet you get nothing.

Wouldn't it be (I'm probably wrong here) that if you get the first part right but miss the second, you break even, but if you miss the first then you lose your $10, or is that something different?

[qakhed]

I like the straight odds, less feeling like

[HOGLUVIN]

all or nothing. they aren't going to give you the optimal chance of winning.

they pay more for that because you are more likely to lose.

[Hank351]

No, you can do an "IF WIN" bet on the game...and if you win that it goes to the over under.  A Parlay can be darn near any amount of games ya wanna bet on.  The more game the more your payback. So, say you think you can pick the games for the first day by the spreads you can throw 5 or 10 bucks on 5 or 6 games and it will bring back a GOOD portion of money.  But lose one you lose you it all, hit 'em all and you're looking at a heck of a pay day.

[qakhed]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

[HOGLUVIN]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

[hogfankb]

you make a 2 part bet...

part 1 is hogs win by more than 4.5
part 2 total score is more than 122 pts for both teams.

you bet $10   if you get em both you get $25   pays 2.5 instead on just 1-1. but if you miss part of the bet you get nothing.

HOGLUVIN i think you need to find a new bookie. I think i get 3-1 on 2 team parlay's(but i'm not positive). definitely 6-1 on 3 team.

[Illinihog]

Moneyline= who you will think will win straight up. 

Exampe if we are -200 that means you have to risk $200 to win $100.  Moneyline is very rarely played in Basketball and Football.  The onlly time you would take the Moneyline is if there was an Underdog you liked.  That would be +200 where $100 is the risk and $200 is the win.  Moneylines are used in Hockey and Baseball Betting.  Two sports in which there isn't a spread.  However if you continue to play favorites in baseball you will lose a ton of money in the long run.

Moneyline= straight up winner. 

While I liked this thread at first some of you guys should've just read the thread and not posted.

[HOGLUVIN]

6-1 on 3 also... 2.5 on 2.

[hogfankb]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

[WILL CLINTON]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on all 4 #1 seeds.  They have never lost in the first round.  you can bet anything you like, and you will probably win.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

[hogfankb]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on the favorites.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Or get your knees broke when the "march madness" bites you on the arse.

Anyone see any games that the lines look real good this weekend?

[WILL CLINTON]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

[WILL CLINTON]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on the favorites.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Or get your knees broke when the "march madness" bites you on the arse.

Anyone see any games that the lines look real good this weekend?

check the edit, play as much as you can on the #1 seeds.  They have never lost to the #16 seed since the inception of the NCAA tourney. 

[hogfankb]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

[WILL CLINTON]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

Boy, a $500 parlay on the real 3 #1 seeds (not memphis) money lines would pay somewhere around 5.5-7 to 1.  Wow what a payoff. 

[hogfankb]

I like the way you are thinking dubyacee. I like the way you are thinking. Be real ballsy and take the 2 seeds in that same parlay. $$$$$$$$$$$

Just got to get home from work.

[SpaHog]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on all 4 #1 seeds.  They have never lost in the first round.  you can bet anything you like, and you will probably win.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Memphis is likely the only game you will be able to bet a moneyline bet on b/c the other lines are all over 20.  Very few books allow a money line bet on lines that get up over 15 points.  Even if they did it would be like -1500 or better.

[SpaHog]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

Boy, a $500 parlay on the real 3 #1 seeds (not memphis) money lines would pay somewhere around 5.5-7 to 1.  Wow what a payoff. 

There is no way that's true!!
A straight up 3 teamer only pays 6:1

[WILL CLINTON]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

Boy, a $500 parlay on the real 3 #1 seeds (not memphis) money lines would pay somewhere around 5.5-7 to 1.  Wow what a payoff. 

There is no way that's true!!
A straight up 3 teamer only pays 6:1

Ok, I said 5.5-7 to 1.  Last I checked 6 to 1 was between 5.5 to 1 and 7 to 1. 

[WILL CLINTON]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on all 4 #1 seeds.  They have never lost in the first round.  you can bet anything you like, and you will probably win.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Memphis is likely the only game you will be able to bet a moneyline bet on b/c the other lines are all over 20.  Very few books allow a money line bet on lines that get up over 15 points.  Even if they did it would be like -1500 or better.

Check Betonsports.com

[qakhed]

I was looking at betus.com, they have moneyline bets on all the games.
so if you risk $125 to win $100, are you actually losing $25? or are you getting $225 back if you win?

[SpaHog]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

Boy, a $500 parlay on the real 3 #1 seeds (not memphis) money lines would pay somewhere around 5.5-7 to 1.  Wow what a payoff. 

There is no way that's true!!
A straight up 3 teamer only pays 6:1

Ok, I said 5.5-7 to 1.  Last I checked 6 to 1 was between 5.5 to 1 and 7 to 1. 

But you said if you parlay the MONEY lines.  It pays 6:1 if you take them on the line if you find a book with money lines on all three and parlay them I promise it won't even pay 1:1.

[SpaHog]

I was looking at betus.com, they have moneyline bets on all the games.
so if you risk $125 to win $100, are you actually losing $25? or are you getting $225 back if you win?

If you have to risk 125 (which for the 1 seeds you will have to risk substantially more than that) you will get back 225 (your bet and your winnings).

[PorcineSublime]

I was looking at betus.com, they have moneyline bets on all the games.
so if you risk $125 to win $100, are you actually losing $25? or are you getting $225 back if you win?

Wow they have us at -5.5. Now that is getting scary.

[qakhed]

I was using that as an example

[qakhed]

I thought I would try it. I put some money in.

[Illinihog]

PARLAYS ARE FOR SUCKERS.   Books also take into account the Moneylines in Parlay's if you take 3 or 4 high moneylines the pay out is going to decrease.  Now if you throw in a few underdog moneylines the payout is going to be better.

[HOGLUVIN]

obviously new, he is, just keep it simple.

[hogfankb]

PARLAYS ARE FOR SUCKERS.   Books also take into account the Moneylines in Parlay's if you take 3 or 4 high moneylines the pay out is going to decrease.  Now if you throw in a few underdog moneylines the payout is going to be better.

Parlays are for impatient people who want more bang for their buck.

They great if you like a few games and are trying to stretch your buck. Quick large payouts but real easy to lose the house in a hurry.

[PorcineSublime]

I was using that as an example

No, I just meant that I went to their website and looked us up they had us at -5.5. I was not inferring that you said that. Sorry for the confusion.

[MCPeePants]

MGM now has Arkansas -5 over Bucknell and Ceasars has it at -5.5.

Surprisingly, MGM has the Syracuse - Texas A&M (5/12) game as a pick 'em. I think Syracuse is a good play there.

[HOGLUVIN]

Here are the lines for the schools of interest:
Notre Dame over Vandy by 5 1/2
Tenn over Withthorpe by 6 1/2 - 7  (money to be made!)
Florida over South Alabama by 8 1/2 (money to be made!)
Marquette over Alabama by 2 (please!)
Kentucky over UAB by 2
Arkansas by 5-5 1/2 over Bucknell.

I think the Eastcoast bias and the West Coast lack of sec knowledge might put some money in our pocket.

[HOGLUVIN]

MGM now has Arkansas -5 over Bucknell and Ceasars has it at -5.5.

Surprisingly, MGM has the Syracuse - Texas A&M (5/12) game as a pick 'em. I think Syracuse is a good play there.

probably why its a pickem, cause I see it straight the other way, maybe big.

[MCPeePants]

MGM now has Arkansas -5 over Bucknell and Ceasars has it at -5.5.

Surprisingly, MGM has the Syracuse - Texas A&M (5/12) game as a pick 'em. I think Syracuse is a good play there.

probably why its a pickem, cause I see it straight the other way, maybe big.

Syracuse doesn't deserve a #5 seed but they're scorchingly hot - and a better and more experienced team than the Aggies, IMO.   

[HOGLUVIN]

thats why its a pickem, what teams are going to show up?

[murray-vegas]

I don't know how any of this Vegas stuff works.

How could we be favored by 4.5?

Is there a logical explanation for favoring (or disfavoring) a team by half points?

"Not only will Arkansas win by 4, they will win by 4.5!"

Logic in the minds of a bookmaker, There is no push/tie on a bet. You either win and they get a 10% vig or you lose and they get 100%. You have to pay to keep the pretty lights on here in Vegas

[murray-vegas]

ok, I got the spread and over and under stuff, but what is a parlee?

a PARLAY is where you can put multiple teams on a ticket but all games must be winners for you to cash out. Here's the breakdown in legal houses(assuming no money line bets and all games are on the dime)(I probably just opened another can of worms on those terms). In Vegas, tie don't count on parlays unless you bet on a parlay card(in which ties lose). To get paid you must have no losses on the ticket.

1 game pays .9 X bet
2 pays 3.6 X bet
3 pays 6 X bet
4 pays 11.5 or 12 X bet
5 pays 25(usually) X bet
6 pays 50something

When in reality the books are taking more from you on parlays. True odds on hitting a 4 teamer are 16-1 but you only get paid for 12-1. Sure you get the low risk but you don't get paid for being right like you should.

[murray-vegas]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Example
The spread in Ark-Bucknell is now 5 or 5.5 in favor of the Hogs. The money line is -190, the total is 123.5

On the spread, Hogs must win by 6 or more to collect right now.
On the money line, Hogs must win, but you have to bet $190 to make $100 in profit. The opposite is when a team has a plus, Bucknell is +165. So you bet $100, you make $165 in profit.
On the total you pick the total points scored by both teams, 123.5 over or under. Pays out .9 times your bet if you bet this.

[murray-vegas]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on the favorites.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Or get your knees broke when the "march madness" bites you on the arse.

Anyone see any games that the lines look real good this weekend?

Took a small parlay tomorrow for fun. 3 teamer.

Vols -6 v Winthrop
Gators -8.5 v USA
UNC Wilm moneyline +125 against GW.

35 gets me $283.5

Wish me luck.

[murray-vegas]

What's the difference in spread, money line, or total points?

Money line is betting on a team to win. Don't have to cover the spread just win. But of course if the two teams aren't evenly matched and you picked the favorite you aren't going to get much in return.

e.g betting $10 on Duke to be northwest alaska state in basketball would probably only win you like 1 cent. but if you picked NW Alaska st to win and they did you would be rolling in the dough. Most bookies won't even take money line wagers on games that are too lopsided.

Yeah, but it is free money though.  If the line on Duke vs. NW Alaska is Duke -125, you win 25 bux for every hundo you will put up.  It doesn't cost anything to play, and you just sit back and send the money back to your account.

I completely agree. might parlay those easy money lines to help you out too. The only problem is finding lopsided favorites that actually have a money line bet.

Boy, a $500 parlay on the real 3 #1 seeds (not memphis) money lines would pay somewhere around 5.5-7 to 1.  Wow what a payoff. 

in money line bets, the -110 that you usual bet at is changed to whatever is offered. There is no moneyline offered on the #1 seed first round matchups. An estimate of would be Duke @ -2500, UConn @ -2200, Memphis @ -1500, and Villanova @ -2250.

So let's say you bet $1000 on the games all moneylined, you'd win...calculating...$206 dollars in profit.

[Illinihog]

spread is the "who's picked to win by how much"
total points is a bet of both teams points added together either +/- is the bet.

money line... I dont know if this is another term for spread. Im not familiar with it, but that would be my guess.

Money line is who is going to win outright.  Most of the time the favorite will be -110, which means you have to bet 110 to win 100.  The underdog will be +130 or something like that, which means if you lay 100, you will win 130. 
I would have to say that to make some easy money this week, play the money lines on the favorites.  You can win an endless amt, as long as you have the money to put it up.  That is if you are using online gambling sites.  If you are using a bookie, just call it in, and go collect at the end of next week.

Or get your knees broke when the "march madness" bites you on the arse.

Anyone see any games that the lines look real good this weekend?

Took a small parlay tomorrow for fun. 3 teamer.

Vols -6 v Winthrop
Gators -8.5 v USA
UNC Wilm moneyline +125 against GW.

35 gets me $283.5

Wish me luck.

You're an Idoit for this bet but whatever, and I'll be on the otherside of most of those bets.  Give me the points in the Tourney any day.  I hope you like swallowing chalk.

[murray-vegas]

You're an Idoit for this bet but whatever, and I'll be on the otherside of most of those bets.  Give me the points in the Tourney any day.  I hope you like swallowing chalk.

Normally I don't like chalk but the reason I picked those games is as follows. First off I'm a contrarian. The Tennessee game has gone down 2 pts and Florida went down a half a point.

1) Vols- I know I'm eating chalk at 6 but they are 17-8 against the number this year. Winthrop is a non-board team who went 2-2 against the number. Caught Memphis on a good night and lost by 10 but also to Bama by 3, Gamecocks by 14, and Burn Tigers by 2. I hold the Vols in a higher regard than those other SEC teams. My number said 7 so I hope that I'm right. I hope Milevoj spends a lot of time on the bench.

2) Gators-The only tourney team USA played this year was the Vols and they got beat by 18. My ratings say Gators by 11 and contrarian theory works again. Florida pounded non-Big-6 teams this year and the Sun Belt is far from Big 6. They also get to play in Florida which might get a few more points.

3) Mensah-Bonsu is coming back off his knee tear and won't be 100% IMO. GW is 1-1 against tourney teams with a 4 pt win against Xavier and a 21 pt loss to NCSt. I think UCNW's harder schedule with the hope that Duke fans root them on to a win playing in Greensboro. Also a cheap middle if the other 2 games hit during the 11 AM sessions. My ratings said GW by 2.5 but that was without any points taken away by injuries.

[murray-vegas]

Ok SOMEONE HELP ME OUT:
I am the person who was saying how they wanted to get into sports betting just for fun. ok i joined a betting site and placed these bets:
Indiana -2
Seton Hall +3(-115)
Alabama+2 1/2(-105)

What EXACTLY did I wager on and how do you like my chances tomorrow?
I do not understand the (-115) thing, I know you are all making fun of me but it's only for 15$ don't worry. Thanks

The books didn't want to lose the half point edge on Bama so you paid a cheaper vig. Basically you win 95% of you bet on Bama if you win. so for every ($100) you bet you make ($95) [throw in the ratio to what you bet]. Bama can lose by 2,1 or win for you to win that bet. Certain numbers are magic numbers in college basketball and 3 is one of them.

As you see in the example with Seton. You paid a higher price to get the 3 instead of them moving the number to 3.5 and you getting it at -110...(100 makes you 85). With small bets the buy back at a nickle, dime or 15 isn't that bad. Some illegal bookies vig in the 20 and 30 percents.

personally I had SH as a +2.5 in my numbers, Bama + 2.5 and Indiana as a -4. So the Hoosiers are a value, Bama is a toss up and I personally like WSU.

[Illinihog]

Seton Hall +3(-115)

Seton Hall is a very very Public play.  Good Luck, but a lot of people "squares" are on them.  I'm not ripping you I started out the same way, but I'll give you a little help if a lot of public is on them it's to easy.  For Instance today I'm taking Witchita St.  1) They are a good team.  2) Joe Public has heard from all the "experts" how SH got jobbed and should be hire and have heard how the Valley is overrated by the RPI. 

Something you should remember if it's to easy it probably is.  Vegas doesn't give money away.  It's smart to go against the public.  A website I use sometimes is www.wagerline.com  they can show you what teams the money is coming in on.

[Illinihog]

Squishy, I haven't made fun of you.  And I hope you don't take that last post as mean, just trying to give you some help, somethings I had to learn.

[murray-vegas]

Squishy, I haven't made fun of you.  And I hope you don't take that last post as mean, just trying to give you some help, somethings I had to learn.

I agree totally. No one should take anything we say the wrong way. You, Illini, me and about 90 million other people will continue to learn something new every day and I've seen just as many drunk women in line hitting parlays or bets as Smarts betting a sure thing and losing. Have fun with it. As Illini can probably agree with me, most first time gamblers take all favorites which shocked me that you took points in 2 games. Personally I don't put that much stock into eating chalk(unless we're talking 10+ chalk) or not, all I care about is winning.

Okay, wait...I've never taken chalk in MLB. 2 more weeks...