The Hogs' main problem

[rude1]

We extend our defense and our frontline is exposed even more.  Washington commits enough bad fouls without having to cutoff drives to the basket or defend a more open post.  Our guards do need to do a better job of getting to shooters.  Problem is Clarke isn't all that quick to close out.  Fortson is but is small.  Henry obviously would help but that is a sacrifice on the offensive end right now.  In the first half, UF wasn't hitting those 3 pt shots.  In the second half, they were and some were from well behind the 3 pt line.  Plus at 6-6 Calathes had no issue shooting over our small backcourt.

We can talk about what Pel and the staff aren't doing but this team has many many holes in it.  We have 9 players that were recruited to play basketball.  13 is the scholarship limit.  Its like we are under some kind of NCAA sanctions.  We will not get better until we get better players.  This isn't complicated. 

As far as the press, there are many reasons why Pel hasn't used it.  First its hard to press off of a missed shot and we aren't shooting well from the outside obviously.  Secondly, when Fortson or Welsh put their heads down and head to the basket, our floor balance and defensive rotation is compromised especially if Clarke is the other guard.  You are asking for runouts for our opponents.  If we press, that means one of our bigs must be at the backend to protect the basket for runouts.  Sanchez can't do it as he doesn't have the speed to get back or the height or athleticism to defend.  With Washington, we could but again you are going to cutdown his minutes more due to fouls.  Clark maybe but that would a sacrifice offensively.  You are also risking Fortson picking up fouls in the backcourt.  Clarke's footspeed would be exposed.  And back to one thing I have mentioned here already, we have 9 scholarship players + Monk with one suspended.  I'm not counting The Golfer.

Very good points. Another overlooked problem concerning the press is the fact we are playing three small guards. Those double teams with 6' guys aren't going to be all that effective. Teams will simply look right over the top of those guys and find the open man. What made Nolan's press so effective back in the day was that fact he had 6'6" guys with long arms trapping you, making it impossible to look over the top and find the open man.

[beachhawg]

I specifically wrote in this thread that I am not denying it has happened or is happening.  I asked for details as real info is rarely given. 

My bad, didnt mean to come off as sounding like a pain.  I am not at liberty to mention names

[chiefsfan]

Montrell McDonald was told to hit the road so that could be the player that was cursing an assistant. It would go along with the rumors of him being insubordinate.

What I know so far: Fortson and Henry were suspended for their transgressions. Moore has been suspended for his. What else, short of kicking half our roster to the curb, would we like Pel to do? We're already playing extremely shorthanded because Sanchez can't quit fouling and our bench is only about two deep with Monk and Britt.

I really dont think discipline cures this problem.  I think the problem is more with how the players are getting along with each other.    this years class is certainly more coachable.  we've proven that several times, with the exception of perimmeter defense which is more of a size and depth issue then anything

I think the problem lies within not having anyone who is truly ready to lead.  Welsh and Washington have never done this before, and want to lead, but at the same time, neither is truly ready to lead a team.  and after a while (Once you begin to lose) other players catch on, and resist team leadership, especially if it isnt working for wins

that issue can only be cured by winning and winning only

[hawgsav1]

i just watched the game tonight and i wrote down who scored and who was guarding them.  On OU's 1st possession, we were in man.  After a quick foul we switched to zone and Warren hit a 3 on the wing over fortson.  (I am watching the replay as I type.)  he hit 2 jumpers while clarke was guarding him in the first half.  the first shot he hit was when they screened for him on the wing and he penetrated into the lane for an open 10 footer.  the other jumper was a 10 footer on the baseline with clarke in his face.  he missed a few threes and then we went to a zone again.  that's where he hit a couple more threes - one with sanchez in his face, the other over moore.

I'd have to see the replay to believe it.  I'm not doubting you, but I was there and I could have sworn that Clarke got shot over several times in the game (It may have been Crocker, but I remember most of his 3s being wide open). 

[HawgnCorona]

I really dont think discipline cures this problem.  I think the problem is more with how the players are getting along with each other.    this years class is certainly more coachable.  we've proven that several times, with the exception of perimmeter defense which is more of a size and depth issue then anything

I think the problem lies within not having anyone who is truly ready to lead.  Welsh and Washington have never done this before, and want to lead, but at the same time, neither is truly ready to lead a team.  and after a while (Once you begin to lose) other players catch on, and resist team leadership, especially if it isnt working for wins

Actually, leadership is possible the biggest problem (amongst others)...I mentioned in another post that this is where we miss SR leadership or PBeverly.

Doesnt really matter who you blame (i.e. Stan Heath).You can see different players at different times trying to assume that role on the floor. But whoever that someone is has to do it both on and off the court.

I dont read to much into the locker room squabbles because that stuff happens amongst players, but what you cant have happen is insubordination.

Anyway, nice post sir you made great points I think.

that issue can only be cured by winning and winning only +1

[HognotinMemphis]

Do I need to remind anyone of this thread I started after the Hogs' last game? After watching the 1st half against Auburn today, the Hogs still have not figured out they need to guard the 3. Let Auburn,  a terrible 3 point shooting team, get a ton of wide open 3's and they were 7 of 8 from 3pt range at one point and finished the half shooting over 50% from 3 point range. Pitiful.

Also, someone tell Sanchez to back off the stupid fouls.

[bfosh]

The main problem is they can't defend the 3, miss timely free throws, other than fortson have no way of creating an open shot, can't make shots with a hand in their face, and seem to get screwed by the refs.  Other than that, they are not a bad team.

[hogman64]

this team has way to many problems to even discuss.   there really is not one facet of basketball that they do well. if there is ,someone please point it out to me.

[TheAlphaHog]

OK.  That was embarrasing.  Hard to believe that was the same team that beat OU and TEX.
We look very confused on both ends of the court and are totally out of sync.
We obviously miss Monk, Henry and Moore in the rotation.  I had hoped that a week off and being back home would get them back on the right track.  But they looked worst than the 3 previous games.  This is the first time we have started 0-4 on the SEC.  Yikes! :razorback:

[donewithdale]

This one is easy.  Its a team full of role players with a PG that doesn't make good decisions.  Need better players and more depth.  No options or versatility to go to in order to find solutions.  Got to recruit better.

[mellonhead]

its really simple. we dont have any really good players. pretty easy to see

[Porkatarian]

its really simple. we dont have any really good players. pretty easy to see

Really, how did we beat Oklahoma and Texas?

Talent isn't the problem.   If you knew half of what has gone on behind the scenes, you wouldn't even be questioning the talent.


Porkatarian out...

[donewithdale]

This team could be getting along well enough to give each handjobs in the locker room.  It won't change the fact that Fortson can't shoot, Clarke is a defensive liability, Sanchez is stuck to the floor and gets outrebounded even with good position, etc.  Some Nolan's best teams were full of egomaniacal drunken stoners but they had skills, athleticism and size.

[TDHog]

Really, how did we beat Oklahoma and Texas?

Talent isn't the problem.   If you knew half of what has gone on behind the scenes, you wouldn't even be questioning the talent.


Porkatarian out...

What's going on behind the scenes?

[HognotinMemphis]

When your PG is 5 of 17 from the field, has 4 assists and 6 turnovers, when your best player is held to 8 points, along with allowing the opponent to hit a ton of 3's, it's game over.

The Hogs' offense is much like last year's. The little PG is driving the lane only to either miss a shot or have the ball stolen. That's not great strategy. Does Pelphrey get it? Apparently not because he continues to let the PG do that...all the way to an 0-4 start in SEC play.

Oh well. Who cares? It's just a game.

[Kevin]

our two go to players (washington & fortson) are playing very average

our good players are playing below average (clarke, welsh, britt)

thin on the bench, no monk, moore

yes, there is a head case on the team.  it seems pel has gone the other way to try to get to him.  instead of ripping him apart, he has tried to built him up, give him responsibility and praise him, especially in the media.  it seems this player is going to repay him by biting him in the butt.

plus, wins again ou and texas has worked against this team.  raising expectation to a level, this team could not reach.

pel has said all year, this team will have to over-achieve, come to play everyday, come to work everyday, it seems they have lost there way.

[hawgbawb]

We're undersized. It's why Nolan struggeled towards the end, and it's why we currently have to run a 2-3 zone. We don't have the depth or experience in our frontcourt to play sound defense.

When Welsh has to play on the backline of the 2-3, you have problems. When you extend the 2-3, you put even more pressure on the thin frontline to stay out of foul trouble and consistantly rebound, which we haven't been able to do.

true. we need a couple of athletic 6-5 guards

[BigHog396]

Really, how did we beat Oklahoma and Texas?

Talent isn't the problem.   If you knew half of what has gone on behind the scenes, you wouldn't even be questioning the talent.


Porkatarian out...

Everyone knows that Welsh is the biggest problem on this team.  If they don't, they simply don't pay attention, or don't care to open their eyes to the truth.  I know someone who traveled with the team on a recent road game, and he said Welsh's attitude was possibly the worst he had ever seen.  As long as you have someone like him tearing the team apart from the inside, you don't really have much of a chance to have any success.

But, that is not where the problems of this team start.  Some people who are already calling for Pel's head really need to pull their own heads out of their a$$es long enough to really look at the situations that got us to this point.

First problem was the complete lack of balance in recruiting classes by Stan Heath.  Look at what we lost from last year, from a sheer numbers stand point.  Weems, Ervin, Thomas, Townes, Hill, and Hunter were all Seniors.  Do you understand the impact of having 6 Seniors leaving a team, especially when you are only allowed 13 scholarship players to begin with?  That doesn't even factor in the impact of Beverley leaving.  That is over half of our scholarship players from last season that are gone.  That can be laid squarely at the feed of Heath, and there isn't a thing that Pel could do about it.

Second problem is all of the players that were supposed to be here this year, or are here and haven't seen much playing time for a variety of reasons.  They either didn't make the grades, were complete head cases and were shown the door, or have been attitude problems and have had the pleasure of riding the bench most of the year.  Payne couldn't make the grades, we may never know exactly what happened with Beverley, McDonald was a complete head case, Henry has had a bit of an attitude issue not to mention knee surgery, Moore now with the DWI, it just never ends.

The loss of these players is what has completely devastated what Pel was trying to do.  You can't win in the SEC when you have 2 post players that are 6'8"+, and no one else getting significant time who is over 6'3".  When you are that out matched on size, there is little chance of any success.  Payne, Henry, and McDonald were supposed to have been the answer to that problem, and as everyone knows 2 of those 3 aren't here... and the other one had knee surgery just over a month ago.

Last problem, lets not forget that our C/F in Washington is playing his first season at that position.  He hasn't learned how to handle the double-team at all yet, and he his only option to help him underneath is Sanchez.  Sanchez has a great attitude, and puts out great effort on the floor, he is just a step slow at this point.  He may develop into a good role player over time, but right know we are having to ask way too much from him because of the shape Heath left us in.

So... everyone can whine and moan about Pel all they want, but the simple fact is he is playing a shorthanded deck, left by Stan Heath.  Pel took a couple of gambles on a couple of players, because he knew he had to.  It hasn't panned out, but things will get better.  You simply have to remember he hasn't even been here 2 years yet.  We are just going to have to take our lumps this season, and maybe next, because you don't completely rebuild a basketball program overnight.

[swinesation]

This post brings home the truth of our situation. Our recruiting is not cutting it. Can Pelphrey recruit top athletes? He hasn't yet. Is the class of 2010 going to be the breakthrough class? We shall see.

It couldn't be that Florida has badly outrecruited the Hogs and just about everyone in the SEC.

From Rivals since its so easy to check:

Florida's 07 recruits and national rank:
Calathes 14th
Parsons 19th
Tyus 50th
Allen 75th

Hogs top recruit:  Sanchez 111th

Florida's 08 class:
Vargas 26th
Kadji 27th

Hogs top recruit:  Fortson 60th

UK:
'07 Patterson 17th
'08 Liggins 28th
'08 Miller 42nd

Vandy, Tenn and Bama all signed higher rated players than we did.

'09:

Florida - Boynton 9th
UK - Orton 22nd Hood 32nd
Ole Miss - Buckner 30th
Vandy - Jenkins 37th

Hogs - Powell 56th

Until we start signing the elite we won't make it back to the elite.  I guess we'll have a lot of shortcomings to discuss though not to mention locker room tales.

[razorback93]

we don't make enough baskets

BRILLIANT!!!

[al2305]

Everyone knows that Welsh is the biggest problem on this team.  If they don't, they simply don't pay attention, or don't care to open their eyes to the truth.  I know someone who traveled with the team on a recent road game, and he said Welsh's attitude was possibly the worst he had ever seen.  As long as you have someone like him tearing the team apart from the inside, you don't really have much of a chance to have any success.

But, that is not where the problems of this team start.  Some people who are already calling for Pel's head really need to pull their own heads out of their a$$es long enough to really look at the situations that got us to this point.

First problem was the complete lack of balance in recruiting classes by Stan Heath.  Look at what we lost from last year, from a sheer numbers stand point.  Weems, Ervin, Thomas, Townes, Hill, and Hunter were all Seniors.  Do you understand the impact of having 6 Seniors leaving a team, especially when you are only allowed 13 scholarship players to begin with?  That doesn't even factor in the impact of Beverley leaving.  That is over half of our scholarship players from last season that are gone.  That can be laid squarely at the feed of Heath, and there isn't a thing that Pel could do about it.

Second problem is all of the players that were supposed to be here this year, or are here and haven't seen much playing time for a variety of reasons.  They either didn't make the grades, were complete head cases and were shown the door, or have been attitude problems and have had the pleasure of riding the bench most of the year.  Payne couldn't make the grades, we may never know exactly what happened with Beverley, McDonald was a complete head case, Henry has had a bit of an attitude issue not to mention knee surgery, Moore now with the DWI, it just never ends.

The loss of these players is what has completely devastated what Pel was trying to do.  You can't win in the SEC when you have 2 post players that are 6'8"+, and no one else getting significant time who is over 6'3".  When you are that out matched on size, there is little chance of any success.  Payne, Henry, and McDonald were supposed to have been the answer to that problem, and as everyone knows 2 of those 3 aren't here... and the other one had knee surgery just over a month ago.

Last problem, lets not forget that our C/F in Washington is playing his first season at that position.  He hasn't learned how to handle the double-team at all yet, and he his only option to help him underneath is Sanchez.  Sanchez has a great attitude, and puts out great effort on the floor, he is just a step slow at this point.  He may develop into a good role player over time, but right know we are having to ask way too much from him because of the shape Heath left us in.

So... everyone can whine and moan about Pel all they want, but the simple fact is he is playing a shorthanded deck, left by Stan Heath.  Pel took a couple of gambles on a couple of players, because he knew he had to.  It hasn't panned out, but things will get better.  You simply have to remember he hasn't even been here 2 years yet.  We are just going to have to take our lumps this season, and maybe next, because you don't completely rebuild a basketball program overnight.

Thank u for making me smarter, unfortunately some of these bird-brains are gonna need this in the form of pictures

[HognotinMemphis]

Many of you make valid points. All I ask of the team at this point is to at least get a hand in the face of a 3 point shooter rather than giving them a wide open attempt.

When Auburn comes into BWA and shoots 10 of 25 from 3 pt range, (started out 7 of 8!) it's their game. I would bet that if a team shoots 40% or better from 3 range and attempts 20 or more 3's, that team wins 90% of the time.

Defense. It's basic. Guard the other guy...don't let him have an uncontested shot whether it's a layup or a 3 pointer from 25 feet. If that is difficult for a team playing in the SEC to do, then something is badly out of whack with that team.

[hogsanity]

Many of you make valid points. All I ask of the team at this point is to at least get a hand in the face of a 3 point shooter rather than giving them a wide open attempt.

When Auburn comes into BWA and shoots 10 of 25 from 3 pt range, (started out 7 of 8!) it's their game. I would bet that if a team shoots 40% or better from 3 range and attempts 20 or more 3's, that team wins 90% of the time.

Defense. It's basic. Guard the other guy...don't let him have an uncontested shot whether it's a layup or a 3 pointer from 25 feet. If that is difficult for a team playing in the SEC to do, then something is badly out of whack with that team.

One of Auburns players said he was " not used to getting so many open looks from 3 ".  Do we really still have a queston about our terrioble defense?  The problem is, they dont want to play hard defense for 35 seconds.  They want to play hard for 10, try to make a steal for 5, then get all out of position, which is always going to leave a 3 pt shooter open somewhere. 

[Oliver]

One thing that really bothers me is that Auburn watched game film and absolutely made the same adjustments that everybody else has made to shut us down since SEC play has started.  We have an entire week to prepare to shut down AUBURN and they destroy us at home.  The fact that we seem to have made absolutely ZERO adjustments since the Mississippi State loss to how people defend us and ZERO defensive adjustments to how we should guard opposing teams has me concerned.

[HawgAdvocate]

Many of you make valid points. All I ask of the team at this point is to at least get a hand in the face of a 3 point shooter rather than giving them a wide open attempt.

When Auburn comes into BWA and shoots 10 of 25 from 3 pt range, (started out 7 of 8!) it's their game. I would bet that if a team shoots 40% or better from 3 range and attempts 20 or more 3's, that team wins 90% of the time.

Defense. It's basic. Guard the other guy...don't let him have an uncontested shot whether it's a layup or a 3 pointer from 25 feet. If that is difficult for a team playing in the SEC to do, then something is badly out of whack with that team.

I was hunting the morning before the game, and napped through most of it. Did we continue to play with a 2-3 zone against Auburn?

[hogsanity]

I was hunting the morning before the game, and napped through most of it. Did we continue to play with a 2-3 zone against Auburn?

It was really hard to tell what we were running.  ften, we had 3 guys 35 ft from the ball, 2 more on the ball, and Auburn had 3 guys open.  Ad, yes, I am being completely serious.

[Lieutenant Dan]

One thing that really bothers me is that Auburn watched game film and absolutely made the same adjustments that everybody else has made to shut us down since SEC play has started.  We have an entire week to prepare to shut down AUBURN and they destroy us at home.  The fact that we seem to have made absolutely ZERO adjustments since the Mississippi State loss to how people defend us and ZERO defensive adjustments to how we should guard opposing teams has me concerned.

Perfectly said.  Anyone on here not concerned about those two things doesn't know what to look for.

[Kenny Dowell Loggains]

Well we have a whole new set of problems that trumps all the above... DEPTH!  No good is going to come out of Moore and Monk being out.  Not to mention J. Henry is still not 100%

[count of bacon]

The main problem is ball movement,  or  the lack-of ball movement.  You can couple that with spacing.   If the ball movement ceases shots are normally "thrown-up" creating poor rebounding opportunities.   We cannot even set-up our full-court defense as effectively if we are not making shots.  How many key fouls have been called on Wash and Fortson for charging?  Trying to do too much without ball movement.

[HognotinMemphis]

BUMP. Now more than ever, my post that started this thread is relevant. Yesterday's game really exposed the weak underbelly of this team - no ability whatsoever to stop a team from moving the ball around and finding the easy WIDE OPEN 3 point attempt.

How many SEC teams this year have set a team record for made 3's against the Hogs? It's getting beyond ridiculous. What word describes the stage beyond "ridiculous"? That's where the Hogs are...that next stage. A bunch of clowns when they attempt to play defense.

[HawgAdvocate]

BUMP. Now more than ever, my post that started this thread is relevant. Yesterday's game really exposed the weak underbelly of this team - no ability whatsoever to stop a team from moving the ball around and finding the easy WIDE OPEN 3 point attempt.

How many SEC teams this year have set a team record for made 3's against the Hogs? It's getting beyond ridiculous. What word describes the stage beyond "ridiculous"? That's where the Hogs are...that next stage. A bunch of clowns when they attempt to play defense.

Using a 3-2 zone to work with the 2-3 would fix it. Just take Welsh/Henry/Britt off the baseline and move him to the wing.

Bam, no more easy swing passes for open treys. The 2-3 won't stop offensive rebounds any better than he 3-2 will.

[Beaverfever]

It's obvious we need to clean house (again) and Pel needs to start being more selective in recruiting.  His supposed hard ass approach isn't working on these guys.  We have guys acting like they are coached by a player's coach (Nutt/Heath).  None of this is what I expected with Pel.