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Author Topic: To be successful at Arkansas...  (Read 2797 times)

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ambien_sky

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To be successful at Arkansas...
« on: December 13, 2017, 11:23:41 am »

I think it's absolutely crucial that the coach be able develop 3 star players, to the level of 4-5 star athletes that are hungry to win. Petrino was excellent at that.  I believe that was a big problem with the style Bielema ran.  It required incredible talent, that we just couldn't get here on a regular basis.

It's a MUST that Chat Morris and staff are able to recruit players with lesser talent,  or at least not as highly ranked as the top recruits, and develop them into stars.  For those of you in the know,  that have done more research than me, can Chad Morris do this?  Does he have a pretty good history of developing players?  As I said,  in my opinion,  it's a must here at Arkansas if he expects to win.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 01:03:02 pm by ambien_sky »
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JONAS

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 11:30:22 am »

Or sign 5* players.
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Al Boarland

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 11:30:31 am »

Does that mean other coaching staffs develop 4 of 5 star players into 6 star players?
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hogman78

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 11:31:30 am »

Does that mean other coaching staffs develop 4 of 5 start players into 6 star players?

Looks like it when Bama plays
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code red

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 11:33:11 am »

Or sign 5* players.
Agreed..if Clemson can do it?  We can do it!!!  Time will tell yes.  The spread offense attracts recruits like flies to honey.  We got the right guy. 
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WOOPIGDOOIE

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 11:36:35 am »

I think he has proved he can be successful with lesser talent, he had far less talent at SMU then what he can get here. But with his and his assistants attitude toward recruiting, i feel he can bring in high level talent.   
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HogHomer

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 11:40:35 am »

Agreed..if Clemson can do it?  We can do it!!!  Time will tell yes.  The spread offense attracts recruits like flies to honey.  We got the right guy.
It's not like south carolina produces a lot more D-1 prospects than Arkansas or anything like that.
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DeltaBoy

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 11:42:46 am »

You got to follow former MSU Coach Mullen"s formula  Get the best you can and Coach them up.  Gary Patterson been a master at this at TCU!
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PossumFan

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 11:46:07 am »

Recruit the best talent you can that fits your system, coach 'em up and develop them to reach their full potential as university football players. There. Said it without mentioning "stars."
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Bob Slydell

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 11:51:09 am »

It's not like south carolina produces a lot more D-1 prospects than Arkansas or anything like that.

According to the numbers, SC produces almost double the D1 recruits that Arkansas produces.  And Clemson's recruiting area in NC, GA, and FL is much more fertile overall.  Of course there are a lot more major programs in their area, but they do have a significant advantage over us in terms of location.
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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2017, 12:19:09 pm »

Talent that fits your system is the key, or adjust the system to fit the talent. Bielema failed at that.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 12:21:52 pm »

No. This has been discussed.  First Petrino had 4 and 5 star recruits on offense.  A few on D too.   

Bielema failed because he didn't follow up his early oline recruiting with numbers and talent, inconsistent qb play and injuries.  He didn't build the program the way he said he was. 



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Dark Helmet Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 12:24:17 pm »

No. This has been discussed.  First Petrino had 4 and 5 star recruits on offense.  A few on D too.   

Bielema failed because he didn't follow up his early oline recruiting with numbers and talent, inconsistent qb play and injuries.  He didn't build the program the way he said he was. 





Discussion doesn't equate being right. There are a lot of pieces that went into the failure of the Bielema tenure.   
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 12:29:30 pm »

Discussion doesn't equate being right. There are a lot of pieces that went into the failure of the Bielema tenure.

Yes.  And the success with Bobby.  Coaching up 2 and 3 stars greatly exaggerated. 
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elksnort

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 12:36:45 pm »

Does that mean other coaching staffs develop 4 of 5 star players into 6 star players?
I was thinking the same thing.

I am not sure 2 stars ever become 5 stars, but I do get the overall point of the OP.
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bphi11ips

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2017, 12:39:58 pm »

Yes.  And the success with Bobby.  Coaching up 2 and 3 stars greatly exaggerated. 

Agreed. It seldom happens with anyone. When a 2 star becomes a 5 star it is usually because of growth, and in some cases, work ethic. You recruit talent and provide a framework for players to grow and improve. You don’t “coach them up”.
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elksnort

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2017, 12:40:03 pm »

According to the numbers, SC produces almost double the D1 recruits that Arkansas produces.  And Clemson's recruiting area in NC, GA, and FL is much more fertile overall.  Of course there are a lot more major programs in their area, but they do have a significant advantage over us in terms of location.
I think the post was sarcastic. I hope.
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Razorbackers

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2017, 12:41:16 pm »

I think it's absolutely crucial that the coach be able develop 2 and 3 star players

big if true
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HogHomer

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2017, 12:48:22 pm »

I think the post was sarcastic. I hope.
Lol yes it was.
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Pig in the Pokey

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2017, 12:57:20 pm »

we dont recruit friggin 2 *s. Almost all of our roster is 3-5*
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2017, 01:00:43 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach THEM up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.

WE ARE NOT Memphis or SMU, WE ARE NOT Vanderbilt or Kentucky, WE ARE NOT Texas Tech or Washington State, WE ARE the freaking ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS start acting like it!
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IronHog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2017, 01:04:17 pm »

No. This has been discussed.  First Petrino had 4 and 5 star recruits on offense.  A few on D too.   









Yes and no.


BP had 4*’s like the Jones boys but his best recruits were often overlooked players with great bodies like Philon, Flowers, and Wise
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HogHomer

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2017, 01:09:30 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach them up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.
He had to take those guys because he swung for the fences multiple times but struck out alot then didn't have the relationships built to bring in the 4 star and high 3 star players and had to rely on under recruited players.

We can try to go after the blue chippers and put all of our resources into it but what happens when those guys leave us high and dry like they always have. We can get the odd blue chippers but to act like all we have to do is try harder is going to make us all of a sudden more attractive to high level talent is laughable.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2017, 01:20:22 pm »

He had to take those guys because he swung for the fences multiple times but struck out alot then didn't have the relationships built to bring in the 4 star and high 3 star players and had to rely on under recruited players.

We can try to go after the blue chippers and put all of our resources into it but what happens when those guys leave us high and dry like they always have. We can get the odd blue chippers but to act like all we have to do is try harder is going to make us all of a sudden more attractive to high level talent is laughable.

He didn't have the relationships in fertile ground like Morris does though, that's a HUGE difference between the two. You can't come from recruiting slow white boys from the northern corn fields and expect to start landing the real talent from Texas, Louisiana, or Florida. The one year he did get talent from Florida look what happened, Alex Collins and Kirkland showed up and made a serious difference. You wanna be competitive with the big boys then you have to recruit like the big boys. None of this scrounge through the leftovers garbage in hopes that there's a late bloomer or whatever. I'm sick of hearing "we don't care about the star rankings, we just get guys that fit our system." That's a load of crap! It just means your not good enough to get the difference makers. As if a 5 star athlete wouldn't fit ANY system smh.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2017, 01:21:52 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach THEM up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.

WE ARE NOT Memphis or SMU, WE ARE NOT Vanderbilt or Kentucky, WE ARE NOT Texas Tech or Washington State, WE ARE the freaking ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS start acting like it!

Tell that to recruits, not us.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2017, 01:28:11 pm »

Tell that to recruits, not us.

Line em up! I'll line em out!
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hogsanity

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2017, 01:31:19 pm »

Only going to go so far trying to win by " coaching em up ". Better players are going to win most of the time.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2017, 01:38:02 pm »

Only going to go so far trying to win by " coaching em up ". Better players are going to win most of the time.

Exactly what I'm trying to say. I for one am sick of settling for mediocre.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2017, 01:41:42 pm »

Exactly what I'm trying to say. I for one am sick of settling for mediocre.

So you think our coaches like settling for it, too? What exactly are we supposed to do to get a kid from Louisiana to pick us over offers from Alabama and LSU? Not like we're competing for championships year in and year out.

No, I'm not advocating for "settling." But it's dumb to tell other people they're quitters or "settle" because we realize we aren't gonna rake in 5* recruits until we start winning.

So guess what? Gotta start winning first with these recruits we're "settling" for unless we wanna start throwing money around.
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IronHog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2017, 01:45:11 pm »

Only going to go so far trying to win by " coaching em up ". Better players are going to win most of the time.


WTH does that mean?
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IronHog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2017, 01:46:53 pm »

He didn't have the relationships in fertile ground like Morris does though, that's a HUGE difference between the two. You can't come from recruiting slow white boys from the northern corn fields and expect to start landing the real talent from Texas, Louisiana, or Florida. The one year he did get talent from Florida look what happened, Alex Collins and Kirkland showed up and made a serious difference. You wanna be competitive with the big boys then you have to recruit like the big boys. None of this scrounge through the leftovers garbage in hopes that there's a late bloomer or whatever. I'm sick of hearing "we don't care about the star rankings, we just get guys that fit our system." That's a load of crap! It just means your not good enough to get the difference makers. As if a 5 star athlete wouldn't fit ANY system smh.


On the flip side it does zero good to get NFL bodies then bury them on the depth chart behind the #uncommon
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steveaustin69

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2017, 01:50:46 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach THEM up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.

WE ARE NOT Memphis or SMU, WE ARE NOT Vanderbilt or Kentucky, WE ARE NOT Texas Tech or Washington State, WE ARE the freaking ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS start acting like it!

You legitimately do not know what you are talking about. Please calm down, and stop yelling.
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jm

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2017, 01:53:23 pm »

To be successful at Arkansas you have to field an adequate defense. The teams in our league do not give up 50 points a game. We must hold teams to something manageable if we want any chance of winning.
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SoonerBaHog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2017, 01:54:31 pm »

If Oklahoma can get 4 and 5 star recruits Arkansas should be able to also.
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steveaustin69

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2017, 01:56:12 pm »

If Oklahoma can get 4 and 5 star recruits Arkansas should be able to also.

L-O-L
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MyBoyCanaan

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2017, 01:56:38 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach THEM up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.

WE ARE NOT Memphis or SMU, WE ARE NOT Vanderbilt or Kentucky, WE ARE NOT Texas Tech or Washington State, WE ARE the freaking ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS start acting like it!


I disagree
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2017, 02:00:57 pm »

If Oklahoma can get 4 and 5 star recruits Arkansas should be able to also.

If Arkansas had 15 10+ win seasons this century, I'd agree with you.
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hogsanity

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2017, 02:01:52 pm »


WTH does that mean?

Really? You cant figure out what that means? Ok, I'll bite. It means when you go play a team that has better players, players with more talent, you are going to lose more often than you win.  If the players i sign are not as talented as the players you sign, more often than not your team will win. My 3 star CB may be the best coached and have the most desire, but if he is 5'10" 170lbs and runs a 4.5 & he is trying to cover a wr that is 6'4" 220 and runs a 4.3, guess who is going to win that war by the end of the day. IF my ol is made up of guys that are 3stars and are a half step slower than your 4 & 5 star dl, guess who's Qb is going to be running for his life all day.

You are not going to win any titles in the sec trying to win with talent that is inferior to BAma, Aub, LSU you have go to find a way to get SEC talent into the program, and I ma not talking about 4 or 5 players a year, I am talking 12-15 legit sec calibre players every recruiting class, and some of them have to be lb's.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2017, 02:08:22 pm »

So you think our coaches like settling for it, too? What exactly are we supposed to do to get a kid from Louisiana to pick us over offers from Alabama and LSU? Not like we're competing for championships year in and year out.

No, I'm not advocating for "settling." But it's dumb to tell other people they're quitters or "settle" because we realize we aren't gonna rake in 5* recruits until we start winning.

So guess what? Gotta start winning first with these recruits we're "settling" for unless we wanna start throwing money around.

I'm not naive enough to think that we're going to "rake in 5* recruits" right off the bat. It is going to take winning to drive our brand enough so that the cream of the crop will want to be associated with us but there is only so much winning we can do with inferior talent. Look at Bama, you know what their classes were ranked before Saban showed up? Somewhere in the high to mid teens, about 8 spots above us give or take, by Sabans 2 year he had them in the top 5 and hasn't been out of it since. Bama wasn't the mighty Bama before Saban put a major emphasis on bringing the best talent and never "settling" for less. You say we're not gonna get the 5* until we win and I say we aren't gonna win (not really win I mean) until we start bringing in the 5*.

Just to clarify I don't mean nothing but 5* guys, that's unreasonable. I do mean however that we bring in more top tier talent than not. Something like mostly 4* with the occasional 5*, with some 3* sprinkled in for good measure. No more of this offering a kid with no real other P5 offers.
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Porknoxville

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2017, 02:09:00 pm »

Or sign 5* players.
With out new staff, we will get our share of 4 star talent. Defensively we will probably have a tad harder time pulling elite players.
BuT, I believe our recruiting classes will far exceed what we've seen in the past. I can only think of one, maybe two classes that made it into the top 20.
28-45 has been out MO. 15-20 will be the new!
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hogsanity

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2017, 02:10:21 pm »

I hate this mentality! This is what we've had beaten into our heads and I'm sick of it! How about let's not settle for the scraps no one wants, how about not fighting the American and MAC level programs for the " Diamonds in the Rough" type guys. Here's an original thought, why don't we take some of the best the country has to offer and Coach THEM up? There's no reason we have to cower before the likes of LSU, A&M, or even Bama. Are we gonna win most of those battles? No. Does that mean we should stop? Absolutely not!!!! The reason Bret Bielema failed here is because he did that exact thing, took a bunch of two and three stars and tried to coach them up into something. If you build your program like that you become super inconsistent and if any of your players go pro early or get hurt then you're screwed because their backups aren't ready to compete yet.

WE ARE NOT Memphis or SMU, WE ARE NOT Vanderbilt or Kentucky, WE ARE NOT Texas Tech or Washington State, WE ARE the freaking ARKANSAS RAZORBACKS start acting like it!

And how do you intend to get those kids to choose Arkansas over Bama/LSU/Aub/Ohio St/Texas/FLA/OU and whoever else is recruiting the best players in the country?
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2017, 02:12:25 pm »

You legitimately do not know what you are talking about. Please calm down, and stop yelling.

First of all I haven't yelled one time, I've capitalized and punctuated for emphasis. Secondly I know exactly what I'm talking about. If you can't keep up I can't help that.
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Bob Slydell

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2017, 02:13:59 pm »

Lol yes it was.

Durrrr!  I laugh at folks who miss the obvious.  If I could, I would smite myself for this.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2017, 02:17:42 pm »

And how do you intend to get those kids to choose Arkansas over Bama/LSU/Aub/Ohio St/Texas/FLA/OU and whoever else is recruiting the best players in the country?

How did Bama/Saban do it? It wasn't by waving around a bunch of NC rings cause they didn't have any. It wasn't off of Sabans name cause he just left the NFL as a massive failure. Point is it CAN be done. Just have to have the right people with the right relationships and give them ALL the resources they require.
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HogHomer

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 02:18:58 pm »

Durrrr!  I laugh at folks who miss the obvious.  If I could, I would smite myself for this.
I'll cut you some slack. It's pretty hard to tell on hogville most of the time  :)
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HogHomer

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 02:21:47 pm »

How did Bama/Saban do it? It wasn't by waving around a bunch of NC rings cause they didn't have any. It wasn't off of Sabans name cause he just left the NFL as a massive failure. Point is it CAN be done. Just have to have the right people with the right relationships and give them ALL the resources they require.
Alabama has 2 million more people in it's state. Also it's a 3 hour drive to Atlanta. Stop comparing our situation to Bama unless you are going to bring 2 million people to the state.
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RyanMallettsEgo

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2017, 02:23:15 pm »

How did Bama/Saban do it? It wasn't by waving around a bunch of NC rings cause they didn't have any. It wasn't off of Sabans name cause he just left the NFL as a massive failure. Point is it CAN be done. Just have to have the right people with the right relationships and give them ALL the resources they require.

Geography and demographics.
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Atlhogfan1

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2017, 02:23:45 pm »



Yes and no.


BP had 4*’s like the Jones boys but his best recruits were often overlooked players with great bodies like Philon, Flowers, and Wise

His offense was loaded with 4 and 5 stars at skill spots and a few on defense.  He wasn't coaching up 2 stars. 
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hogsanity

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2017, 02:26:59 pm »

How did Bama/Saban do it?


In many cases they either walked over to Tuscaloosa High, or they drove the hour or so to Birmingham or Montogomery or some other Bama HS. Or they took a day trip to ATL and visited about a dozen 5 star types.
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Hopeful Hog

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Re: To be successful at Arkansas...
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2017, 02:31:32 pm »

Alabama has 2 million more people in it's state. Also it's a 3 hour drive to Atlanta. Stop comparing our situation to Bama unless you are going to bring 2 million people to the state.

You bring up a good point with the population differences between Arkansas and Bama but the Atlanta part doesn't hold water because Fayetteville is only about a 5 hour drive to Dallas. Bama has to compete with Georgia for those guys, the closest major program we have to compete with in Dallas is SMU. I know there are other major programs in Texas but not IN Dallas. I'm not saying we are gonna BE Bama but we're never gonna consistently compete with them on the field until we compete with them off the field.
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