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What has caused the OL issues?

Started by Nipsey Mussle, September 16, 2017, 01:08:01 am

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HognitiveDissonance

Quote from: woodrow hog call on September 19, 2017, 09:41:44 am

This is one of the things most don't get, or if they seven and all we have are the five O linemen with no back or TE, we don't get it blocked.
One of those classic, technically true, but totally misleading things.
As said, if most of the line does their job on a play, but one guy whiffs, so the play breaks down. Yet most of the O-line would have graded perfectly on the play.

Or, a guy drowning in a river whose 'average' depth was three feet. We've all heard that one before.

Just to say you can use statistics to prove anything yet totally miss the point.

PorkRinds

Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 12:18:17 pm
Yea, you read things in the paper from scrimmages like 'Hedlund was 5-5 in the scrimmage, from 48 yards, 43 yards, 36, etc etc'
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of that information. I'm sure it's true.
I just know from watching real live game action that it's just not there, and lost confidence in him in 2015. The kicks have always been too low, and then you factor 'game lights', heavy rush, pressure, etc. It's just not there.
At some point the coaches' knowledge of what happens in games has to be weighed against what happens in practice, and one side will win. In this case, as I said, I don't blame the coach for giving him another chance as the 'starter' in 2016...but to trot out the same player in 2017 was an epic fail.

He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?

 

factchecker

Quote from: hogz11 on September 19, 2017, 11:01:59 am
Heck, Biddy called McFain the better kicker way before the start of the season and Hedlund was still trotted out there only to lose the job.

Biddy thought McFain was the better kicker this season?

That's weird because McFain isn't on the team.  He graduated last year.
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MemphisBossHog

Quote from: Qadi999 on September 16, 2017, 05:19:22 am
The problem with the Oline is when BB came here he gave Pittman marching orders on the kind of Olinemen he wanted (road graders) and that what Pittman went out and got. All this worked well for the most part as long as the linemen had to just push straight forward Without a lot of lateral movement. When Enos came in and wanted to change things with a lot of pulling guards and lateral movement, Pittman saw that the changes were not something that his guys could do and said as much in a few interviews. In my opinion, this was the major factor in why Pittman left. Pittman saw the writing on the wall and knew that he would catch the blame for it. The same problem has been ongoing since Pittman left.  The linemen they got are not good at what they are being asked to do, and the young guys they have in now are better at what they want to do but don't have the talent or the experience to do it consistently. ALL of this comes from the fact that the head coach has lost his identity in what he wants his football team to be and its reflected most in his Oline.
very interesting.  Had not heard this before.  It does make perfect sense.  Pittman's OLinemen were absolutely huge.  Under him, we had the largest OLine in ALL of football including the NFL, but time and time again we watched smaller, quicker defensive linemen and LBs simply go around them and meeting the ball carrier in the backfield in short yardage situations. 

It certainly makes sense that Enos's more balanced offensive system would need a different kind of lineman.  Now couple that with BB most likely vetoing some of the things Enos wants to do and still trying to be a smashmouth run it down the other guy's throat team and you probably get what we are getting now. 

Enos wants to be balanced, creative, maybe some dink and dunk passing plays that can loosen up the defense, but then BB hears it on the headset and just cant help himself and says no.  (we have seen evidence of this when BB was still at Wisky and his OC Matt Canada confronted him about meddling in the offensive game plan instead of letting him do his job)  So maybe we end of with the wrong kind of linemen for the system we want to run.  But then again what is the system we want to run?  If we are going to be a smashmouth team, then why hire Enos?  If he wants to take advantage of Enos's system, then get the right kind of OLinemen that can move laterally.

Nashville Fan

Good theory but I don't see a lot of road grading. I see a two man stunt to the outside left with the first defensive guy drawing a double team and the second guy curling back to the inside and thumping the QB. Over and over and over.
Pittman or Bust!

hawgfan4life

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 18, 2017, 09:30:54 pm
The games on YouTube. Condensed into a few minutes. Find us the plays.

Okay.  I don't know how to copy a single play, but go to the 2nd quarter at the 6:48 mark.  This is an example of him simply staying in the way and getting stood up.  Go to the 2nd quarter at the 3:48 mark and watch the play live and keep watching the slow motion isolation with commentary of him getting blown-up.  Go to the 1st and goal at the 3 with 56 sec remaining in the 3rd and watch the next two plays.  The first he is stood up and shoved inside and the second the DL slants inside and he doesn't wash him back an inch.  He goes inside with him and he gets buckled on a pile where the ball was going.

I have no problem with the kid.  He did far better than a true freshman should ever be expected to do, but it is bullcrap that he is being needed to play when we have older, stronger, more experienced players that have been in the system multiple years sitting on the bench.  That is not a reflection on the young player but a reflection on the coach that didn't get the stronger, experienced players ready to play or at least have a substitute package to get them in when it was needed to move the LOS.

Kid is good.  Did an admirable job!  SHOULDN'T be in the game when he isn't physically ready five years into a system, which he isn't physically ready the way he gets manhandled on some plays.

HognitiveDissonance

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 19, 2017, 12:23:07 pm
He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?
How many were over 30 yards?

Tell me a meaningful kick that he made from 2015-17. Either won a game...sealed a game...or was from any meaningful distance. Any of the above.

He lost me by having kicks blocked that would have potentially won the Ole Miss game and the 29-yarder from the Miss St game that year. Forget somebody not being blocked, the fact remains his kicks have always been too low. All of that was obvious in 2015.

I'm glad you had confidence in him, because I sure didn't. I think anyone would look at Arkansas's kicking situation and see some real limitations there. At least McFain last year, he wasn't deadly accurate, but I had confidence that it was NOT going to be blocked. And I had reasonable confidence he would make it. I never had any of that with Hedlund.

factchecker

Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 11:05:42 pm
How many were over 30 yards?

He made a 38 yard field goal vs. TCU and Virginia Tech last season.

Hedlund made a 45 yard field goal vs. Ole Miss in 2015 - in hindsight that was pretty darn important.
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PorkRinds

Quote from: HognitiveDissonance on September 19, 2017, 11:05:42 pm
How many were over 30 yards?

Tell me a meaningful kick that he made from 2015-17. Either won a game...sealed a game...or was from any meaningful distance. Any of the above.

He lost me by having kicks blocked that would have potentially won the Ole Miss game and the 29-yarder from the Miss St game that year. Forget somebody not being blocked, the fact remains his kicks have always been too low. All of that was obvious in 2015.

I'm glad you had confidence in him, because I sure didn't. I think anyone would look at Arkansas's kicking situation and see some real limitations there. At least McFain last year, he wasn't deadly accurate, but I had confidence that it was NOT going to be blocked. And I had reasonable confidence he would make it. I never had any of that with Hedlund.

He missed two kicks last season and was 95% in camp. I'm just wondering what you thought would be the reason for him losing his job. Just a gut feeling or what? Because it wasn't his performance evidently.

Youngsta71701

What has caused the OL issues?  Personnel management.
"The more things change the more they stay the same"

PorkRinds

Quote from: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 10:01:45 am
I'm sure you will fire back, but I seriously wonder if Hedlund's struggles are tied to the apparent lack of special teams emphasis under CBB.

I feel like he's a head case.  Any high school field goal kicker could have made at least one of those kicks last game.

*edit
To be clear I don't mean personally, I mean kicking wise.

Dominicanhog

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 20, 2017, 10:02:26 am
I feel like he's a head case.  Any high school field goal kicker could have made at least one of those kicks last game.

*edit
To be clear I don't mean personally, I mean kicking wise.

how many PAT's has he missed.. almost amazing to see.. sad also...

GunnerHawg70

What has caused the OL issues?  This is an easy one: No Sam Pittman, mediocre OL execution. Pretty much sums it up.

 

PorkRyan

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 19, 2017, 12:23:07 pm
He missed two kicks in 2016. Why would he lose his job?

You do realize that he did lose the job in 2016, right?  After he missed a 25 yarder and then a 40 yarder that he kicked into the line.   

PorkRyan

Quote from: factchecker on September 19, 2017, 11:15:41 pm
He made a 38 yard field goal vs. TCU and Virginia Tech last season.

Hedlund made a 45 yard field goal vs. Ole Miss in 2015 - in hindsight that was pretty darn important.

He also missed a 27 yarder against TCU.  That 45 yarder was the only kick from 40+ that he made in his career at Arkansas. 

forrest city joe

Quote from: Wildhog on September 18, 2017, 01:48:24 pm
I think that's right.  I really don't even care that much.  I just remember reading reports throughout camp that McFain looked better.  He got a lot more air under his kicks, whereas Cole hit those line drives.

justmakeit2thebcs

Quote from: b501 on September 16, 2017, 01:27:39 am
coach likes to play his favorites and you are the seeing the result
Yeah he doesn't care about winning or putting the best player on the field, he plays the guys that kiss his ass.  He should be playing the guys were rated four stars that don't don't put forth the effort required to be great.  If only we had Georgia's running game.

forrest city joe

Quote from: justmakeit2thebcs on September 20, 2017, 10:38:51 am
Yeah he doesn't care about winning or putting the best player on the field, he plays the guys that kiss his ass.  He should be playing the guys were rated four stars that don't don't put forth the effort required to be great.  If only we had Georgia's running game.
How do you know those 4 stars are not putting in the effort? all 5 are not good enough or putting in the effort and the walk on are. i will put it this way. the OL of walk-on and Defensive Linemen,is not working. they look bad these first 2 games.

HognotinMemphis

I just watched the 9 min video of highlights of the 2010 LSU vs Arkansas in LR game. LSU was #5 and Ark was #12.

That Ark team's defense swarmed LSU. LSU couldn't run against the Hogs that game. Their QB was constantly harassed. Many sacks and hurries of LSU QB.

Mallet had years to throw. Great protection. Knile Davis had holes a truck could have driven through. WR's got separation from LSU defenders, and not just a little.

All in all, the current Razorback team looks like a FCS team on both sides of ball compared to the 2010 team. How has this program fallen so far in only a few years?
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Youngsta71701

Instead of being called RBU or TEU we should be labeled WOOLU.
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GuvHog

Quote from: PorkRinds on September 20, 2017, 12:23:27 am
He missed two kicks last season and was 95% in camp. I'm just wondering what you thought would be the reason for him losing his job. Just a gut feeling or what? Because it wasn't his performance evidently.

Bielema is really feeling the pressure so he has a quicker hook than usual this season and Cole's removal from the Kickers depth chart is evidence of that.
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justmakeit2thebcs

Quote from: hogz11 on September 20, 2017, 11:46:41 am
You're assuming the 4* guys aren't putting forth the effort based on your belief the coach is playing the guys that work the hardest and look the best in practice. Many fans have lost that faith in CBB. My take is deeper on the roster decisions and I've already posted it multiple times.
You are assuming that I am assuming? LOL.  You have no way of knowing who my contacts are and what I know and don't know.  And I could care less about the "many fans that have lost faith in CBB".  We and every other fan base have many, many idiots.  You quoted Trey Biddy about roster decisions?  Laughable.  Hitch your wagon to Brian Wallace and Biddy if you want.  Why people would rather gripe than support is beyond me.   Do you really think you can start a grass roots movement to get CBB removed?  Carry on.

justmakeit2thebcs

Quote from: forrest city joe on September 20, 2017, 11:31:59 am
How do you know those 4 stars are not putting in the effort? all 5 are not good enough or putting in the effort and the walk on are. i will put it this way. the OL of walk-on and Defensive Linemen,is not working. they look bad these first 2 games.
You need to look at the tape.  Those two have not been the main issue.  Where do you get "they look bad" ?

IronHog

Quote from: justmakeit2thebcs on September 20, 2017, 02:11:26 pm
You need to look at the tape.  Those two have not been the main issue.  Where do you get "they look bad" ?


So who looks bad then?
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

 

GuvHog

Quote from: IronHog on September 20, 2017, 02:39:49 pm

So who looks bad then?

When there are 8 defensive players coming after the QB but only 5 linemen their to block them, the whole play looks bad.
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IronHog

Quote from: GuvHog on September 20, 2017, 02:43:21 pm
When there are 8 defensive players coming after the QB but only 5 linemen their to block them, the whole play looks bad.


He's saying the two chosen ones aren't they problem.....

Guess it's the All American and the "other two"
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

BoynamedWooPigSooie

Well Pittman not signing one legit OT is a good start.  Choosing a 4* Hawaiian that never played a down in 4 years over Stockton Mallett who has become an All-American at UCA also points to the staff not being as astute in talent evals as we were led to believe they are.

Another issue is the Strength & Conditioning program may the biggest fraud that Bielema has committed against the citizens of Arkansas and their tax dollars.  Look up Jared Cornelius' 247 profile, look at his face from his Sr. year to his Jr. year here photos. He has put on 40 lbs.  That's not what you want w/ your skill players. Herb fattens up the players like they're cattle at a finishing lot. He's making them bulky and slow. There are way too many players with double chins, fat faces and smooth arms.  Look at rosters around the league, our opponents rosters are full of big guys that look how elite athletes should look. It's a reasonable explanation why we always gas out and wilt away in the 2nd half.

There's also not enough nastiness and desire to win/be the best.  Too much hero worship for just being a Razorback and not enough that are out there willing to put in the extra work to earn it.  They simply do not work hard enough and if you want some great technical analysis research Geoff Schwartz and read up on some of his articles. There are issues w/ the stances and first steps out of the stance with our OL and everything snowballs badly from there.
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HamSammich

Quote from: What's Shakin' Macon on September 16, 2017, 01:08:01 am
Bad evals? Bad coaching? Bad luck? All 3?

Boiler plate BB blaming will accomplish nothing in this thread, I'm truly wondering what has led to these problems.

Pittman leaving may have contributed, and perhaps Anderson needs to go. Also, bad luck in that a guy like Brian Wallace can't crack this starting lineup, despite being an army all american?


Bad coaching bad recruiting..:: hogville hated Pittman at the end. Well reap it

Arazorbackguy1

As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 
I have 10 to 12 points to make per game.

B501


Hogs run wild

i'm sure Benny will be in quickly to defend the Oline.
We all got a chicken duck woman thing waiting for us.

Hoggish1

Quote from: Arazorbackguy1 on October 01, 2017, 08:53:53 am
As you all saw yesterday, guys were slicing and dicing our OL.  Is it talent, scheme, competition throwing relenting blitzes, or coaching?  On replays, I see O-Linemen not even seeing the defender run right past them. 

Passing: 19 for 26 / 264 yrds = 13.9 yrds per pass
Rushing: 228 yrds on 51 carries = 4.5 yrds per rush

Großer Kriegschwein

Quote from: Hoggish1 on October 01, 2017, 09:01:06 am
Passing: 19 for 26 / 264 yrds = 13.9 yrds per pass
Rushing: 228 yrds on 51 carries = 4.5 yrds per rush

That, I'm sure you realize, doesn't tell the whole story.
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FANONTHEHILL

I'll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there's a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

IronMountainHog

Quote from: FANONTHEHILL on October 01, 2017, 09:02:46 am
I'll stand in for Benny.  497 yards, ZERO sacks, and 42 points and there's a crappy OL thread.  Brilliant.
Feel free to also include all the holding penalties and yards we lost because of them.

JaketheSnake

Probably food poisoning. They had a bad breakfast buffet Saturday am.

jkstock04

I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.
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FANONTHEHILL

Quote from: IronMountainHog on October 01, 2017, 09:05:16 am
Feel free to also include all the holding penalties and yards we lost because of them.
Two.  For a total of 20yds. Three penalties in the game for a total of 35yds. Hold on Ragnow. Hold on Ramirez.  Roughing passer on Greenlaw. 
Favorite quote from practice.  Made to my son:<br /><br /><br />Technique is nice, but it comes down to this.  Block the F'er in front of you. - Sam Pittman 2015

Hoggish1

Quote from: Großer Kriegschwein on October 01, 2017, 09:02:29 am
That, I'm sure you realize, doesn't tell the whole story.

Neither does it tell a lie.

Swestwill66

O-lines are puzzling this year. There's lots of griping on here about a couple of 4 stars on the bench. Watching F.S.U yesterday, their o-line is awful! Against Wake forest. I would think that 4 and 5 stars make up most of their line . Their recruiting is close to Bama.
   Last night, L.S.U against Troy, L.S.U was getting pushed around by TROY!! Troy was putting pressure on the L.S.U  Qb. L.S.U recruits similar to bama.

Hoggish1

Quote from: jkstock04 on October 01, 2017, 09:12:31 am
I seriously worry about Austin Allen getting badly injured when we get into the meat of our SEC schedule. And I'm not even talking or thinking about losing our starting qb...I'm just worried about his well being, and no I'm not being facetious or sarcastic.

Our pass plays take too long to develop, O-line can't hold the blocks and he is gonna get absolutely hammered, planted, and beaten when we play the likes of Alabama or Auburn.

I'm curious; is this a wish or a fear? 

Likes...? As for Alabama/Auburn are you saying there others like them on our schedule?  Because if that's what you mean by likes, I can assure you there are none like them among Miss, MSU, USCe, LSU and UM.

I have observed you like the worse case scenario about Arkansas.  My question is:  Why are you are "fan?"

Großer Kriegschwein

Quote from: Hoggish1 on October 01, 2017, 09:17:35 am
Neither does it tell a lie.

It tells the NMSU-Arkansas story.

Back to conference play next weekend. That will change.
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elviscat

Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.

IronHog

Quote from: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:24:21 am
O-lines are puzzling this year. There's lots of griping on here about a couple of 4 stars on the bench. Watching F.S.U yesterday, their o-line is awful! Against Wake forest. I would think that 4 and 5 stars make up most of their line . Their recruiting is close to Bama.
   Last night, L.S.U against Troy, L.S.U was getting pushed around by TROY!! Troy was putting pressure on the L.S.U  Qb. L.S.U recruits similar to bama.


LSU and FSU are far behind Bama in overall line talent......
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

Al Boarland

Can wait for FOTH to come back with the grades after the OL faces some legit DL's.

IronHog

Quote from: elviscat on October 01, 2017, 09:41:31 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.


It's both.....slow plays, bad OL play.


Allen isn't the best at dealing with pressure either. 
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.

JaketheSnake

Quote from: elviscat on October 01, 2017, 09:41:31 am
Guys, it's not the offensive line that's the problem, it's the scheme that we are running. When you put a qb under center it takes 2.5-3 seconds to setup to before you start to reads for receivers, by that time we are talking 4-5 seconds before he can make a decision about where he is going to throw the ball. Whereas, if he is standing back and taking a direct snap then he has more time to make his reads and throw. It's the "Scheme" that is killing us.
We saw a little more shotgun yesterday.  Hopefully that means we are planning more of that.  I understand being under center to really sell a handoff, but in obvious passion downs, why waste time faking the handoff?  We are not running a draw on 3rd and 12. 

Swestwill66

Quote from: IronHog on October 01, 2017, 09:43:43 am

LSU and FSU are far behind Bama in overall line talent......

Obviously they are,but they had similar recruiting. We just assume L.S.U and F.S.U missed on their kids ?

IronHog

Quote from: Swestwill66 on October 01, 2017, 09:49:04 am
Obviously they are,but they had similar recruiting. We just assume L.S.U and F.S.U missed on their kids ?


The recruiting isn't similar
Iron sharpens iron, So one man sharpens another.