Redbird Rundown X

[jbell96]

How many others made just as good of deals? I would say at least half did. Most went after players that have helped them. They also lost some. The good ones found a way to keep or get the ones they wanted. Face it, Theo Epstein is at the top of the list. He's done great things at 2 place now. Mo isn't even close to his caliber.

Well go be a Cubs fan if you love Theo so much. We gave David Price a 200M offer, and he was coming, until Boston swooped in and severely overpaid him.

And like jrulz said, Theo walked in to the perfect situation. A stacked farm system and carte blanche with the payroll, Cards don't have that luxury a mid market team, where as the Cubs are in one of the biggest markets in the country, and they can afford to spend more money.

While I didn't like the Moss trade when it happened last year, he was dealing with nagging injuries, so he wasn't 100%. Now that he's healthy he's showing us what he can do, and the prospect we traded him for, has been average at best in the Indians farm system. As of now that trade turned out to be a win for us, just like the Gyorko trade this year.

With the exception of a few teams, I think most would kill to have Mo as their GM.

[clutch]

How many others made just as good of deals? I would say at least half did. Most went after players that have helped them. They also lost some. The good ones found a way to keep or get the ones they wanted. Face it, Theo Epstein is at the top of the list. He's done great things at 2 place now. Mo isn't even close to his caliber.

I'd like to see what Theo would do at a franchise that wasn't willing to spend as much as he wanted to build a team. He's been fortunate in that both Boston and Chicago aren't afraid to let him spend whatever. He's proven that he can win a WS if he gets to buy the players he needs. He's also proven that sometimes that plan can backfire on him, like the Carl Crawford years there in Boston.

[jrulz83]

Mozeliak has done a wonderful job for the Cardinals, sure there have been some duds (Tyler Green, Khalil Greene, Pedro Feliz) to name a few. Every GM makes a move that turns out bad in the end, it's just the natural gravity of baseball that causes that to happen.

I can say this, there are very few deals that I can think of that the Cardinals have had go way bad since Mozeliak took over. The ones that have gone bad have been minimal in scope. Part of that is organizational, but I think he deserves a fair amount of credit for the success of the franchise since 2007.

Just one more thing, I lose more faith in Matheny every day nearly. The late game double switching out of the better bats they have has backfired a lot. He may be a great leader of men but his game management gets more and more suspect every time I watch him.

[clutch]

Matheny might be the worst double switcher in all of baseball. He still hasn't figured out how to do it correctly.

Just like the game a month or so back where he double switched both the 3 and 4 hole hitters out and the game ended in extra innings with Oh at the plate in the 3 hole with the bases loaded. My theory on that is that if Matt Holliday can get you through 7-8 innings defensively then he can get you through the last inning too. I'd rather have a lesser left fielder with a great batting late in the game than a great defender that can't hit jack.

[jrulz83]

Matheny might be the worst double switcher in all of baseball. He still hasn't figured out how to do it correctly.

Just like the game a month or so back where he double switched both the 3 and 4 hole hitters out and the game ended in extra innings with Oh at the plate in the 3 hole with the bases loaded. My theory on that is that if Matt Holliday can get you through 7-8 innings defensively then he can get you through the last inning too. I'd rather have a lesser left fielder with a great batting late in the game than a great defender that can't hit jack.

He did something similar to that this week, on consecutive pitching changes, in the same inning.

[pigture perfect]

Well go be a Cubs fan if you love Theo so much.


And like jrulz said, Theo walked in to the perfect situation. A stacked farm system.


While I didn't like the Moss trade when it happened last year, he was dealing with nagging injuries, so he wasn't 100%. Now that he's healthy he's showing us what he can do, and the prospect we traded him for, has been average at best in the Indians farm system. As of now that trade turned out to be a win for us, just like the Gyorko trade this year.

not hardly, I've been a die hard Card since 1969. Just don't like Mo.

And who had the stacked farm system when he became GM? Yep, you guessed it. Almost identical.

again, I think most GM's made at least 2 good moves in the last 2 years. I will even  give him 3 with the Heyward for 1 year deal. Still doesn't make him elite. I still don't understand the loyalty to this guy.

[jrulz83]

not hardly, I've been a die hard Card since 1969. Just don't like Mo.

And who had the stacked farm system when he became GM? Yep, you guessed it. Almost identical.

again, I think most GM's made at least 2 good moves in the last 2 years. I will even  give him 3 with the Heyward for 1 year deal. Still doesn't make him elite. I still don't understand the loyalty to this guy.

Well I looked into it because I knew it was coming. Here is the Baseball America farm system rankings on April 5, 2007. That was the spring before Mozeliak took over. Any guesses where the St. Louis's farm system ranked that year? I'll answer, 23rd in MLB.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/rankings/organization-talent-rankings/2007/263636.html

[Dropkick]

Well I looked into it because I knew it was coming. Here is the Baseball America farm system rankings on April 5, 2007. That was the spring before Mozeliak took over. Any guesses where the St. Louis's farm system ranked that year? I'll answer, 23rd in MLB.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/rankings/organization-talent-rankings/2007/263636.html

That is interesting. Can you tell me what The Cubs ranking was when Epstein took over in 2011.

[Dropkick]

Yes, Theo walked into the best farm system in baseball and a franchise flush with cash in Chicago, but he's single handedly rebuilt Wrigley field brick by brick. He's a terrific GM don't get me wrong, but he walked into a situation that he could succeed in in Chicago. Just like Mozeliak in St. Louis. However, I never intended this as a Theo vs Mozeliak vs whoever discussion. I'm not into those kind of things. I merely said that some of the moves that Mozeliak has made have proven that he might know what he's doing. Speaking of Jocketty, who is evidently so great, what has he done in Cincy?

I looked it up. Ranked 16th. Actually Jed Hoyer is Cubs GM as far as the titles go.

[jrulz83]

That is interesting. Can you tell me what The Cubs ranking was when Epstein took over in 2011.

16th, and they got how many top 5 picks for the next few years? I've never said that Theo wasn't good at picking a situation and excelling in it, I've never, not once, said he wasn't a very shrewd and savvy guy, I've never, not once, said he wasn't a good GM. Some keep wanting a comparative argument of Theo vs Mozeliak. That's a dumb argument, Theo is good for the Cubs and Mozeliak is good for the Cardinals. They understand and fit their respective franchises nicely.

All I ever said was Mozeliak has done a good job for the Cardinals, that's it, and about half of the people that replied to or about that comment have somehow tried to turn it into a Mozeliak vs Theo thing. I never meant anything about the Cubs or Theo, or anything outside of what I said about Mozeliak might have a decent idea of how to run an MLB franchise.

[jrulz83]

Actually Jed Hoyer is Cubs GM as far as the titles go.

Actually, I don't care. We all know he does what Theo tells him to do.

[clutch]

He did something similar to that this week, on consecutive pitching changes, in the same inning.

I feel like he tries too hard to be LaRussa. He's overthinking things too much. Cardinals have now lost 8 games on a walkoff this year. More than any team in MLB.

[jrulz83]

I feel like he tries too hard to be LaRussa. He's overthinking things too much. Cardinals have now lost 8 games on a walkoff this year. More than any team in MLB.

Three walkoffs to the Reds I think. Yeah, it sure does seem like he outsmarts himself a lot of times.

[clutch]

Three walkoffs to the Reds I think. Yeah, it sure does seem like he outsmarts himself a lot of times.

I know of at least 2 of them to the Reds for sure. I can't remember if there was a 3rd, but there probably was. The situation I was talking about previously was one of the Reds walkoff games.  I really hate losing on walkoffs to bad teams.

[jrulz83]

I know of at least 2 of them to the Reds for sure. I can't remember if there was a 3rd, but there probably was. The situation I was talking about previously was one of the Reds walkoff games.  I really hate losing on walkoffs to bad teams.

Oh it's the worst, they're the games you look back at and hate yourself for losing. They usually wind up costing a lot in the standings at the end of the year.

[pigture perfect]

I feel like he tries too hard to be LaRussa. He's overthinking

I believe this is it, in a nutshell.

[pigture perfect]

One of the best games in a long time. 25 consecutive games with a homer. NL record tied. 2 off the mlb record. 1st time ever for a team to be down to their last strike and win it with 3 home runs.

[pigture perfect]

It's been said before and I'm in agreement, we stink at home.

[pigture perfect]

Wait til next year.

[jrulz83]

Wait til next year.

At least you'll have fun rooting the Cubs on to the World Series.

[popcornhog]

It's been said before and I'm in agreement, we stink at home.

It is odd. I'd almost prefer the 2nd WC spot.

Here's what's on tap tonight:

Ty Blach starting for Giants against Clayton Richard.

Blach's first career start, I think. That could be a loss.

Mets have a better matchup starting Gsellman v Jake Thompson.

Cards have Martinez v Lester.

[jbell96]

I think we need to go 5-2 in the next two series to lock up a playoff berth. 4-3 might get it done, but 5-2 will for sure.

[pigture perfect]

At least you'll have fun rooting the Cubs on to the World Series.

Nope, wrong again. If the Cards don't make it, I'll probably be pulling for the Nats.

[jbell96]

Okay it's time for a rant. Brandon Moss is hitting .071 over the past month, referenced in the article below, and yet he keeps playing every day, and failing to come through in key situations. Play Pham & Hazelbaker for crying out loud. They can't do any worse than .071 in a month's time.

Last night was the straw that broke the camel's back for me in terms of caring about this season. The Reds have outstanding young talent on offense, but their pitching staff is terrible, and in the two losses this week, we scored a grand total of 3 runs against them. Season on the line, tying run on 3rd with nobody out, and we can't get him home, just pathetic.

Article below perfectly describes how I feel about this season.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-sabermetrics-analysis/2016/9/29/13104096/cheering-for-the-2016-st-louis-cardinals-has-felt-more-like-an-obligation-than-a-privilege

[Dropkick]

The Giants are trying to give STL that last wildcard slot and Cardinals refuse to take it................and vice versa

[jrulz83]

Okay it's time for a rant. Brandon Moss is hitting .071 over the past month, referenced in the article below, and yet he keeps playing every day, and failing to come through in key situations. Play Pham & Hazelbaker for crying out loud. They can't do any worse than .071 in a month's time.

Last night was the straw that broke the camel's back for me in terms of caring about this season. The Reds have outstanding young talent on offense, but their pitching staff is terrible, and in the two losses this week, we scored a grand total of 3 runs against them. Season on the line, tying run on 3rd with nobody out, and we can't get him home, just pathetic.

Article below perfectly describes how I feel about this season.

http://www.vivaelbirdos.com/st-louis-cardinals-sabermetrics-analysis/2016/9/29/13104096/cheering-for-the-2016-st-louis-cardinals-has-felt-more-like-an-obligation-than-a-privilege

Yeah, Moss has sucked for the last month. It has cost him a ton of money. I hope to see a lot of changes coming for the franchise this offseason. They need to get rid of these home run or nothing players that some fans have been screaming for like 5 year olds that want a toy. They need to get back to what has made them successful, pitching and defense.

Not tying that game up in the bottom of the ninth cements in my mind the fact that this team doesn't deserve the playoffs. When Wong hit the leadoff triple I told a buddy I was watching it with, "Bet he doesn't get home." When he didn't we both said in unison, "They don't deserve the playoffs." Pitiful, atrocious, disgusting, and that's coming from an optimist when it comes to the Cardinals.

[pigture perfect]

Yeah, Moss has sucked for the last month. It has cost him a ton of money. I hope to see a lot of changes coming for the franchise this offseason. They need to get rid of these home run or nothing players that some fans have been screaming for like 5 year olds that want a toy. They need to get back to what has made them successful, pitching and defense.

Not tying that game up in the bottom of the ninth cements in my mind the fact that this team doesn't deserve the playoffs. When Wong hit the leadoff triple I told a buddy I was watching it with, "Bet he doesn't get home." When he didn't we both said in unison, "They don't deserve the playoffs." Pitiful, atrocious, disgusting, and that's coming from an optimist when it comes to the Cardinals.

see we do agree on lots of things.

[jrulz83]

see we do agree on lots of things.

The Cardinals have played uninspired baseball all year, these are the facts of the case and they are not in dispute. I feel quite certain that figuring out who needs to be moved out is another matter entirely.

[jrulz83]

The umps conspired to give the Cardinals the game tonight. All I can say is, "Wow, they blew it."

[jbell96]

The umps conspired to give the Cardinals the game tonight. All I can say is, "Wow, they blew it."

All I have to say is that situation doesn't happen if Grichuk isn't an idiot by misplaying a routine fly ball to center in the top of the 9th.

Also, if I was the Reds manager, I would have immediately gone out there to challenge it. What do you have to lose at that point?

[jrulz83]

All I have to say is that situation doesn't happen if Grichuk isn't an idiot by misplaying a routine fly ball to center in the top of the 9th.

Also, if I was the Reds manager, I would have immediately gone out there to challenge it. What do you have to lose at that point?

Absolutely correct on both counts. What was the Reds LF doing on that play as well? Why didn't he immediately throw his hands up? Brain farts all around Busch Stadium last night.

[jrulz83]

So it begins, Holliday won't have his option picked up:

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/cardinal-beat/cardinals-won-t-pick-up-holliday-s-option-for/article_7eb31b2c-9e20-5689-a11b-760ec01d6225.html

I'm mildly surprised as I thought the Cardinals would wuss out and pick it up because of his standing as a "core" player.

[clutch]

I'm actually amazed that this team still even has a chance at the postseason. They can't pitch, field, run bases or win games at home. No clue how they've made it this far.

[jrulz83]

I'm actually amazed that this team still even has a chance at the postseason. They can't pitch, field, run bases or win games at home. No clue how they've made it this far.

I'm pondering these same things, I suppose it's indicative of how bad the rest of the league is.

[clutch]

I'm pondering these same things, I suppose it's indicative of how bad the rest of the league is.

I definitely didn't expect the Pirates to not even be in the picture. I thought this year was their year.

[pigture perfect]

Well, it's gonna be a slow October. Now to see what the off season will look like.

[Dropkick]

I think the Cardinals would have been a more dangerous wildcard team than SF or NYM.

[jrulz83]

Too bad they came up short. The way things were going I really felt like the Cardinals could have done some damage in the playoffs. There were so many missed opportunities this season, from all aspects of the game. There's nobody to blame but themselves.

I think they need to forget the big bats and return to pitching and defense being their keys to success. This is going to be a big off-season for the future of the franchise, I'm kind of excited to watch this play out.

In no specific order, a few questions I have:

1) Wacha has issues, and no rotation spot at this point. What will happen with him?

2) Holliday, (if he's really gone) what direction do they go to replace him? Trade?

3) Will Wainwright round into old form or was this season the new normal?

4) What position and lineup spot does Carpenter occupy next year?

[jbell96]

I think the Cardinals would have been a more dangerous wildcard team than SF or NYM.

Starting pitching carries you through October, and the Giants have a strong starting rotation, so I think they're going to be dangerous going forward. Their bullpen is their biggest Achilles heel.

[jbell96]

Too bad they came up short. The way things were going I really felt like the Cardinals could have done some damage in the playoffs. There were so many missed opportunities this season, from all aspects of the game. There's nobody to blame but themselves.

I think they need to forget the big bats and return to pitching and defense being their keys to success. This is going to be a big off-season for the future of the franchise, I'm kind of excited to watch this play out.

In no specific order, a few questions I have:

1) Wacha has issues, and no rotation spot at this point. What will happen with him?

2) Holliday, (if he's really gone) what direction do they go to replace him? Trade?

3) Will Wainwright round into old form or was this season the new normal?

4) What position and lineup spot does Carpenter occupy next year?

We definitely have to improve our defense. I think it cost us at least 4-5 games this year, and that's probably a being  a tad bit generous.

Sad irony is that we finally get 10 games over .500 and it's not enough.

[jrulz83]

We definitely have to improve our defense. I think it cost us at least 4-5 games this year, and that's probably a being  a tad bit generous.

Sad irony is that we finally get 10 games over .500 and it's not enough.

Yep, the defense must get better. If Jedd Gyorko, and this isn't a knock on him, is your best defender something has to change. Having Oquendo back ought to help the defense be marginally better. Sometimes marginal improvement is the difference in the playoffs and staying home.

[Dropkick]

Starting pitching carries you through October, and the Giants have a strong starting rotation, so I think they're going to be dangerous going forward. Their bullpen is their biggest Achilles heel.

With the Giants throwing Bumgarner in WC game Cubs will have better pitching options IMHO.

[WMHawgfan]

Yep, the defense must get better. If Jedd Gyorko, and this isn't a knock on him, is your best defender something has to change. Having Oquendo back ought to help the defense be marginally better. Sometimes marginal improvement is the difference in the playoffs and staying home.

yeah there are a lot of questions going into this offseason. they have to make some moves in the starting rotation as well. Reyes and Martinez are definitely in but the other three spots are up for grabs including Wainwrights spot. Hate to say that but he wasn't solid the entire year. Hope he gets it together though. Leake, Wacha, Garcia certainly should not have guaranteed spots on the team next year.

I just hope we don't get the canned answer that we will look to improve from within that get so often. I know the economics dictate what moves we make but I just don't want to go into next season knowing we are miles behind the cubs.

[jrulz83]

I just hope we don't get the canned answer that we will look to improve from within that get so often. I know the economics dictate what moves we make but I just don't want to go into next season knowing we are miles behind the cubs.

I have the same hope, I don't think they can afford the "trust our talent" approach. I think there needs to be some pretty significant stuff done for this team to be better. The good new is, if I'm not mistaken, they had a winning record against the Cubs. So that gives me some pause on really getting drastic with altering the team, on the other hand it also frustrates me tremendously.

[Rocky&Boarwinkle]

19 other teams would like to trade places with them. Finishing 1 game back on the wild card race is in a way, probably a blessing of sorts.  The wear and tear on the core players like Molina from going into the playoffs 6 straight years can add up.  A little bit of early rest and healing may do wonders for next year.  I know injuries are part of baseball and if you look at many of the teams that were successful in reaching postseason vs. others, long-running injuries were the major culprits.  The Royals are a prime example this year.  The amount of time that players were out for the Cardinals, or came back and weren't 100% like Peralta, was quite significant.  I think that matched with Matheny's butt-puckered managing style is a larger player than any huge talent deficit.  I think the Holliday move signifies a possible move on the horizon. 

[pigture perfect]

I'm thinking Jaime Garcia is going to be the odd man out in the rotation. I just don't think the Cards will pick up the $12 million option, when the buyout is only $500,000. He does have a live arm and is a lefty, but he just can't stay healthy or at times focused. I'm hoping Lynn comes back stronger than ever and Marco and Reyes blossom into the pitchers I think they can be. Gyrko sure was an upgrade from our previous Utility infielders and I hope we keep him. I'm hoping that Adams finds his stroke and can be the everyday 1st baseman. Hopefully Wong is over his sophomore slump and can be at 2nd solidly. Love Diaz at short and Carp at 3rd. Hopefully we can find an equal to the deal we had with Holiday for 7 years or so in Left.  Let the hot bat decide who plays Center between Gritch, Pham and Hazelbaker and keep Piscotti in right.

That's not a whole lot of changes, because I don't figure we are as far away as it looked this year. If we would have been remotely decent at Busch we would have at the least, run away with the wildcard and been fairly close to the Cubs, I think. Whatever happens I hint it should be interesting.

[jbell96]

With the Giants throwing Bumgarner in WC game Cubs will have better pitching options IMHO.

Giants have more than just Mad Bum in their starting rotation. Cueto has been outstanding this year & Samardzija has pitched extremely well over the last month or so. If they get by the Mets tomorrow, all they have to do is steal one in Chicago, and Cub fans will have some serious lemon booty, going to SF to face Mad Bum in game 3.

Lester & Lackey are proven postseason winners, but Arrieta isn't. He just has a 6-4 record with a 3.69 ERA since the All star break this year, including a September where he went 2-3 with a 4.60 ERA.

Not to mention, he didn't really pitch that well last year in the two postseason series against the Cards & Mets. He went 1-1 with a 6.75 ERA, and didn't make it through the 6th in either start.

[DeltaBoy]

Sad to see the Cards setting Home!

[DeltaBoy]

Cards got to plug some holes and finish some issues so we can make the post season next year.

[southarkhog06]

can yall come over to the cubs and big papi board and calm down your drunk uncle.

In all seriousness, other than a few arrogant fans, the cards are one of the best organizations in baseball and I look forward to battling yall for the central in the forseeable future.