AG&F Confirms Mountain Lions in Arkansas SIAP

[OldCoot]

They are here WATCH OUT!

I have a feeling you won't have much chance if it wants you.

[Pigasaurus]

A game cam captured one in Ashley County a couple yrs ago.  My former boss lived close by and  made sure his daughters were packing heat whenever they went 4 wheeler riding after that.

[micali]

My buddy had two pet deer killed by a Mt. Lion.  This thing climbed a 7' fence, killed the deer, climbed the tree in the pen and jumped out with the deer.  He found the torso about 75' feet away.  It came back the next day and killed the other deer.  The warden said he would probably never see it again.  He didn't deny what did it.  This was about 8 yrs ago out by Piney Point.

[lumphog]

We heard and reported seeing them in the White River Refuge back in the 1980s and we were called nuts.

I have seen them on the St. Francis NWR between Storm Creek & Bear Creek, and have seen them between Ponderosa area & the Helena Hospital from the late 70s thru the late 90s. They talk about breeding in the video & I've heard " THAT SCREAM " before & there's NO DENYING IT of a female in HEAT!!! There was an older man that lived down the street from me that saw a black cat cross the road several times behind the Hospital & his 2 sons and I saw a big black cat on a bluff in a cane thicket one night in the same area within 10 yards. They've been in Phillips Co. for years. I remember a story about AG&F trading some Wild Turkey from St. Francis to Florida for 5 Fla. panthers in the early 90s. One more thing...... I've seen a wolf in St. Francis too, NOT A COYOTE, in the late 70s, NO BS, within 10 feet.....Let the SMITES BEGIN...... There is only a few people that believe me, but I saw what I saw & have only met 1 other man that has seen one.

[OldCoot]

From all i've heard a black cat would be an extreme rarity, if not an impossibility.

[kodiakisland]

I have seen them on the St. Francis NWR between Storm Creek & Bear Creek, and have seen them between Ponderosa area & the Helena Hospital from the late 70s thru the late 90s. They talk about breeding in the video & I've heard " THAT SCREAM " before & there's NO DENYING IT of a female in HEAT!!! There was an older man that lived down the street from me that saw a black cat cross the road several times behind the Hospital & his 2 sons and I saw a big black cat on a bluff in a cane thicket one night in the same area within 10 yards. They've been in Phillips Co. for years. I remember a story about AG&F trading some Wild Turkey from St. Francis to Florida for 5 Fla. panthers in the early 90s. One more thing...... I've seen a wolf in St. Francis too, NOT A COYOTE, in the late 70s, NO BS, within 10 feet.....Let the SMITES BEGIN...... There is only a few people that believe me, but I saw what I saw & have only met 1 other man that has seen one.

Some turkeys for an endangered species...  Would love to see some info on that.

[pigture perfect]

Me too. I could see that happening like with Arizona for Mountain Lions, but not Florida panthers.

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

Turkeys for Florida Panthers didn't happen.  That's crazy.

[Albert Einswine]

From all i've heard a black cat would be an extreme rarity, if not an impossibility.

In the history of human occupation of North America there has never been a shred of credible evidence that there's a black phase mountain lion.

Black jaguars are a fact, but rare, same for black bobcats.

[Hawgon]

In the history of human occupation of North America there has never been a shred of credible evidence that there's a black phase mountain lion.

Black jaguars are a fact, but rare, same for black bobcats.

There are also jaguarondi and I personally believe that jaguars have had a much greater range than they have been credited with.  If you'll read the accounts of the old settlers, they well knew the difference between the lion and the "Mexican tiger" as they called it.   

[Albert Einswine]

Turkeys for Florida Panthers didn't happen.  That's crazy.

Yeah, I can't see Florida trading any of their endangered panthers for Wild Turkey. Macallan perhaps?

[twistitup]

There are also jaguarondi and I personally believe that jaguars have had a much greater range than they have been credited with.  If you'll read the accounts of the old settlers, they well knew the difference between the lion and the "Mexican tiger" as they called it.   

There are always arguments regarding this black cat.....the argument is over the name used for the cat, but you are correct - there are many historical accounts of black cats in northern Mexico and Texas. I grew up in rural Texas and the there are too many sightings to just be ignored.

If these cats are in Texas, why not Arkansas....

[kodiakisland]

There are always arguments regarding this black cat.....the argument is over the name used for the cat, but you are correct - there are many historical accounts of black cats in northern Mexico and Texas. I grew up in rural Texas and the there are too many sightings to just be ignored.

If these cats are in Texas, why not Arkansas....

Lots of argument over bigfoot too.

[twistitup]

Lots of argument over bigfoot too.

Bigfoot - not a cat

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

My buddy had two pet deer killed by a Mt. Lion.  This thing climbed a 7' fence, killed the deer, climbed the tree in the pen and jumped out with the deer.  He found the torso about 75' feet away.  It came back the next day and killed the other deer.  The warden said he would probably never see it again.  He didn't deny what did it.  This was about 8 yrs ago out by Piney Point.

Where is Piney Point located?

[Rzbakfromwaybak]

Some turkeys for an endangered species...  Would love to see some info on that.

Well, he did say the panthers were traded for with some "Wild Turkey".  Maybe it was the liquid 100 proof type....

[waphill]

Dear Verge, man up and come eat your crow.

Pretty sure he has been bant for some comments towards the friendly Rutgers fans a while back.

[DeltaBoy]

I have seen them on the St. Francis NWR between Storm Creek & Bear Creek, and have seen them between Ponderosa area & the Helena Hospital from the late 70s thru the late 90s. They talk about breeding in the video & I've heard " THAT SCREAM " before & there's NO DENYING IT of a female in HEAT!!! There was an older man that lived down the street from me that saw a black cat cross the road several times behind the Hospital & his 2 sons and I saw a big black cat on a bluff in a cane thicket one night in the same area within 10 yards. They've been in Phillips Co. for years. I remember a story about AG&F trading some Wild Turkey from St. Francis to Florida for 5 Fla. panthers in the early 90s. One more thing...... I've seen a wolf in St. Francis too, NOT A COYOTE, in the late 70s, NO BS, within 10 feet.....Let the SMITES BEGIN...... There is only a few people that believe me, but I saw what I saw & have only met 1 other man that has seen one.

Yep Grandpaw said the Old Warrior Bottoms that ran from Holly Grove over to Elaine were full of Black panthers back in the 20-30's!

[Albert Einswine]

Yep Grandpaw said the Old Warrior Bottoms that ran from Holly Grove over to Elaine were full of Black panthers back in the 20-30's!

Grandpaw spent too much time in the 'shine.  Where is the evidence for a bottom "full of Black panthers"?

[twistitup]

Grandpaw spent too much time in the 'shine.  Where is the evidence for a bottom "full of Black panthers"?

Guess they forgot to post pics online....

[Albert Einswine]

Guess they forgot to post pics online....

Guess they forgot to collect ANY evidence for the "bottom full" of big black cats...

[Hawgon]

Guess they forgot to collect ANY evidence for the "bottom full" of big black cats...

Because that is what old timers did...collect evidence.

[Albert Einswine]

Because that is what old timers did...collect evidence.

Yep, my granddad's house and barn was full of the evidence of things he'd killed. And maybe you'd like to look around the museums of any university in the country, or natural history museums anywhere in North America and you'll find an almost limitless supply of bones, fossils and mounts and somehow the big black cats are missing amongst it all.

[Hawgon]

Yep, my granddad's house and barn was full of the evidence of things he'd killed. And maybe you'd like to look around the museums of any university in the country, or natural history museums anywhere in North America and you'll find an almost limitless supply of bones, fossils and mounts and somehow the big black cats are missing amongst it all.

How would bones tell the tale?  Mounts?  Yes, there were mounts.  There was a rather famous mount of a black tiger as they called it on a river boat steamer for decades.  I suspect it is the same place your mounts will be in 150 years.

[Albert Einswine]

How would bones tell the tale?  Mounts?  Yes, there were mounts.  There was a rather famous mount of a black tiger as they called it on a river boat steamer for decades.  I suspect it is the same place your mounts will be in 150 years.

Did it go down with the ship? Got anything more than apocryphal links to the story? Any images of the "black tiger" survive? Was it a jaguar? They are factual, I have no argument against that.

It's all the stories I heard growing up about the black panthers that roamed all over the hills and bottoms of NEA that no one ever seemed to kill, or photograph that I disregard. I live by the adage "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

[Hawgon]

Did it go down with the ship? Got anything more than apocryphal links to the story? Any images of the "black tiger" survive? Was it a jaguar? They are factual, I have no argument against that.

It's all the stories I heard growing up about the black panthers that roamed all over the hills and bottoms of NEA that no one ever seemed to kill, or photograph that I disregard. I live by the adage "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

Then you pretty much don't believe anything.  I'm not saying that black cats are common or that they are even mountain lions.  I lean towards jaguarundies and jaguars.  Lots and lots of settler's accounts of Mexican tigers as they were called in Texas and Louisiana.  There is absolutely no reason that jaguars weren't present in some numbers in this part of the world at one time and might still be to a certain extent.  There is more food than ever and we are in, or on the edge of their historic range.  Further, every predator in North America is expanding its range and numbers and there is no reason they wouldn't be either.

[Albert Einswine]

Then you pretty much don't believe anything.  I'm not saying that black cats are common or that they are even mountain lions.  I lean towards jaguarundies and jaguars.  Lots and lots of settler's accounts of Mexican tigers as they were called in Texas and Louisiana.  There is absolutely no reason that jaguars weren't present in some numbers in this part of the world at one time and might still be to a certain extent.  There is more food than ever and we are in, or on the edge of their historic range.  Further, every predator in North America is expanding its range and numbers and there is no reason they wouldn't be either.

I don't have any opposition to black phase Jaguars or Jaguarundi because they are known and extant, but rare.

It's just statements like "bottoms full of black panthers" that drive me nuts, because 1. it's never corroborated, and 2. black phase big cats are so rare even in the species where they are a known entity.  It's just a ridiculous statement.

[Hawgon]

I don't have any opposition to black phase Jaguars or Jaguarundi because they are known and extant, but rare.

It's just statements like "bottoms full of black panthers" that drive me nuts, because 1. it's never corroborated, and 2. black phase big cats are so rare even in the species where they are a known entity.  It's just a ridiculous statement.

Actually, relatively speaking, they are pretty common in jaguars.  There are even regions where they are the majority of jaguars.

[Albert Einswine]

Actually, relatively speaking, they are pretty common in jaguars.  There are even regions where they are the majority of jaguars.

I'll have to revisit that with study, because I've never seen that data before.

Okay, just a quick google search revealed that melanism occurs at a known rate of around 6% of jaguars in South America. For the purpose of observation of an elusive critter, that would still make seeing them rare.

But here in Arkansas they're everywhere.

[Hawgon]

I'll have to revisit that with study, because I've never seen that data before.

Okay, just a quick google search revealed that melanism occurs at a known rate of around 6% of jaguars in South America. For the purpose of observation of an elusive critter, that would still make seeing them rare.

But here in Arkansas they're everywhere.

I'm not arguing that they are common.  But you are arguing they flat out don't exist.  There are black cats that have in the past and COULD still range in Arkansas.  That's it, period.

And yes, in certain regions of the rain forest, the black jaguar occurrence is much higher than 6%.  Kind of like a golf course I know where every single squirrel used to be black.  Doesn't skew the overall average.

[Albert Einswine]

I'm not arguing that they are common.  But you are arguing they flat out don't exist.  There are black cats that have in the past and COULD still range in Arkansas.  That's it, period.

And yes, in certain regions of the rain forest, the black jaguar occurrence is much higher than 6%.  Kind of like a golf course I know where every single squirrel used to be black.  Doesn't skew the overall average.

What do you want man? I agree that black jaguars/jaguarundi could have in times past ranged here and might be ranging back again, but there's still not any corroborating evidence other than "I seen it" and "my granddad and great uncle used to kilt the hell out of them" down in the east podunk bottoms.

[Hawgon]

What do you want man? I agree that black jaguars/jaguarundi could have in times past ranged here and might be ranging back again, but there's still not any corroborating evidence other than "I seen it" and "my granddad and great uncle used to kilt the hell out of them" down in the east podunk bottoms.

Okay, then.  So why do you make fun of people who say they have seen one when you admit that it is possible that there are, in fact, animals that could account for the sightings?

[Albert Einswine]

Okay, then.  So why do you make fun of people who say they have seen one when you admit that it is possible that there are, in fact, animals that could account for the sightings?

First of all, these stories are usually framed around it being a black Florida panther or a black mountain lion and the insistence that black examples within those subspecies exist, when in fact they've never been known to. But people will swear to God, their ancestors and descendants that it was in fact a black mountain lion.

Secondly, even though I do acknowledge it's within the realm of possibility that a black phase cat known to actually exist could range within our state, there's zero credible evidence to support the rampant claims statewide. None.

The claims for the bigfoot sightings have just as much evidence.

[Albert Einswine]

Okay, then.  So why do you make fun of people who say they have seen one when you admit that it is possible that there are, in fact, animals that could account for the sightings?

Apparently West Virginia has the same overabundance of black panthers. Here's a write up I found about it and it touches on jaguars a bit. It's from a 2010 article.

http://www.knowhunting.com/article.html?id=173

[JIMMY BOARFFETT]

First of all, these stories are usually framed around it being a black Florida panther or a black mountain lion and the insistence that black examples within those subspecies exist, when in fact they've never been known to. But people will swear to God, their ancestors and descendants that it was in fact a black mountain lion.

Secondly, even though I do acknowledge it's within the realm of possibility that a black phase cat known to actually exist could range within our state, there's zero credible evidence to support the rampant claims statewide. None.

The claims for the bigfoot sightings have just as much evidence.

Pearls among swine, Al.  Pearls among swine.

[Hawgon]

First of all, these stories are usually framed around it being a black Florida panther or a black mountain lion and the insistence that black examples within those subspecies exist, when in fact they've never been known to. But people will swear to God, their ancestors and descendants that it was in fact a black mountain lion.

Secondly, even though I do acknowledge it's within the realm of possibility that a black phase cat known to actually exist could range within our state, there's zero credible evidence to support the rampant claims statewide. None.

The claims for the bigfoot sightings have just as much evidence.

So, why do you automatically determine that an otherwise reliable witness who sees a large black cat is not "credible"? 

[Albert Einswine]

So, why do you automatically determine that an otherwise reliable witness who sees a large black cat is not "credible"? 

Because most eyewitness accounts aren't that credible, the mind very often sees what it wants to see, or embellishes what was seen with the passage of time.

[Hawgon]

Because most eyewitness accounts aren't that credible, the mind very often sees what it wants to see, or embellishes what was seen with the passage of time.

Eyewitness accounts will get you sent to prison. 

[Albert Einswine]

Eyewitness accounts will get you sent to prison. 

Sure enough, but they don't make the testimony a fact.

[Hawgon]

Sure enough, but they don't make the testimony a fact.

It just makes it credible. 

[Albert Einswine]

Hey, you watch your mouth talkin' 'bout sasquatches!

I saw a 'squatch get taken down by the White River monster just upstream of Oil Trough back in the mid '80s. I know what I saw, my account is credible.

[Albert Einswine]

Hang on, I'm on the phone with Animal Planet negotiating for you to get a TV show about that.

See if you can play 'em off against History Channel and get 'em into a bidding war.

[pigture perfect]

I saw a Black Jaguar on 2 different occasions while a kid growing up in Belize. Incredible looking animals that are not easily forgotten.

[Hawgon]

I saw a Black Jaguar on 2 different occasions while a kid growing up in Belize. Incredible looking animals that are not easily forgotten.

No, they are incredibly rare, even in Belize.  I'm sure you didn't actually see one and are mistaken.

[Boarslab]

I saw a 'squatch get taken down by the White River monster just upstream of Oil Trough back in the mid '80s. I know what I saw, my account is credible.

You sure that wasn't at Newport?   On a different note---I've always heard the same stories of black panthers here in the hills of North Central Arkansas...old settlers had encounters often and would hear them scream in the middle of the night....well, I'm with you on this---how come none of these gun totin dead eye marksmen ever killed one for evidence.....ever?  Just one? ever? 

[Hawgon]

You sure that wasn't at Newport?   On a different note---I've always heard the same stories of black panthers here in the hills of North Central Arkansas...old settlers had encounters often and would hear them scream in the middle of the night....well, I'm with you on this---how come none of these gun totin dead eye marksmen ever killed one for evidence.....ever?  Just one? ever? 

How would you know if the had killed one?  Do you know that one of them didn't?

[Albert Einswine]

Hawgon, surely a fur trader would have found a ready market in Europe for the pelts of all these big black cats that proliferated in the wilds of North America. Surely someone would have written how the native Shamans used the pelts of these black cats in their rituals or how the great tribal elders and chiefs adorned themselves with them, but somehow they failed to mention it.

[Hawgon]

Hawgon, surely a fur trader would have found a ready market in Europe for the pelts of all these big black cats that proliferated in the wilds of North America. Surely someone would have written how the native Shamans used the pelts of these black cats in their rituals or how the great tribal elders and chiefs adorned themselves with them, but somehow they failed to mention it.

Who has ever said they were common?  And did fur traders find a market for cougars?  No, the targets were mostly beavers.

[Albert Einswine]

Who has ever said they were common?  And did fur traders find a market for cougars?  No, the targets were mostly beavers.

And fox, marten, mink, otter, bobcat, etc...

[OldCoot]

Yep Grandpaw said the Old Warrior Bottoms that ran from Holly Grove over to Elaine were full of Black panthers back in the 20-30's!

I think we used to automatically assume a panther was black, and attached the "black" to any panther.  In reality, there isn't much evidence of black panthers around.