Let's Make an SEC West Schedule For Utah !!

[SharpTusk]

Utah Utes should have what they want!  RESPECT.  But they'll never get the respect they deserve with this schedule.



Utah's attorney general has been raising Cain about the inherent unfairness of the BCS system.

First, he was going to conduct his own investigation as if there were enough folks to answer his questions inside the State of Utah. His next step was to complain to members of Congress, some of whom took up his mantra (like a Congressman from Texas) to call for legislation regarding a college football playoff system. Now that a legislative movement has failed because of other more pressing issues (imagine that!) than Utah getting hosed for the National Championship game, he's now pressing the Department of Justice for yet another anti-trust investigation.

The modest proposal is simply to counter Utah's AG's efforts with simple, straightforward law that Utah play a schedule where, if they succeed, they should be a lock for the National Championship game. All of the extra travel expenses for the schools as well as the buyouts might run an extra 8 million dollars or so. Pay-per-view revenue for fans who can't travel, some extra tv appearances, and the extra games will make it approachable. I imagine we can rustle up some private money and keep government's responsibility to a minimum.

Waiting to see how these folks behave, I've drafted a modest legislative proposal to submit to a U.S. Senator friend of ours for the Utah Utes for 2009-2010 football season.  To vastly improve Utah's BCS ranking, it needs an SEC West schedule.  Being from Arkansas and being hospitable and all, we can fit them into an SEC West Schedule playing 8 SEC games. 

We'd save considerable time and money working the schedule this way and besides, matters should be settled on the field, right?   The situation just needs a little help. 

In fact, it's hardly an inconvenience for most teams on this schedule, and without any doubt revenue can be found to accomplish this schedule. Only 3 SEC teams  would need to buy out non-conference games and playing 13 games will help Utah just like playing in the SEC Championship Game.  Utah shouldn't flinch!   



First, Utah has the usual number of non-conference opponents at the beginning of the season and BYU at the end.  We'll leave those in place. 

Utah has an open conference date of October 3, 2009.  It so happens that the Florida Gators have that date open.  Utah's indoctrination into the SEC would begin with a friendly visit to the Swamp. 

On October 10, 2009, Mississippi State has a non-conference game with Houston which could be bought out for not too much.  The Bulldogs would go to Salt Lake City.

See how accommodating we could be! 

It so happens that on October 17, 2009, another SEC West team has an open date.  The Utes get to travel to Death Valley in Baton Rouge to face LSU.  Geaux Utes!

Of course every SEC West team gets to play 2 teams from the Eastern Division, and it so happens that Georgia's schedule is open for October 24, 2009.  Utah would be more than happy to host.  Don't you think?

Well, the next week gets a little sticky.  Ooops, no it doesn't!   Look here.  Alabama has an open date!!    Georgia went to Utah last week, so Utah gets to go to Tuscaloosa on October 31, 2009, for a rematch. Happy Halloween!!!

On November 7, 2009, we'll have to reschedule Ole Miss's game with Northern Arizona so that Houston Nutt's bunch can go play in Salt Lake.  Have you Utes ever seen airplanes with derogatory banners ever flying overhead? 

On November 14, 2009, Arkansas will have to buy out its game with Troy, but we'll be happy to host Utah in Fayetteville !!   Go get 'em Bobby!!

And isn't this convenient? Auburn has an open week on November 21, 2009.  Chizik and Malzahn will have to travel to Salt Lake with the Auburn Tigers. 

Utah can play BYU to finish out the season...at least until their shot at the National Championship Game after going undefeated! 

I would love to see how good Utah's fourth string tailback is by the 8th game of the season or whether their first and second string quarterbacks can take an SEC pounding all year. How well would they do against Alabama after playing LSU and Georgia the two previous weeks?

It's only a modest proposal.

[UAalumUALRlaw]

I agree with your basic premise that they should simply play a very difficult non-conference schedule if they want to be considered for a NC. Their conference schedule is simply too weak.

I have a couple of problems with your proposal though. First, I'm not a big fan of socialist policies that give the federal government control of private enterprise (like NCAA athletics). But you may be in luck. In the current political environment, the feds have no problem taking ownership of private businesses. (i.e. AIG, GM, and potentially CitiGroup)

Second, they already have an eight game conference schedule, that only leaves four spots for non-conference games. Teams are not allowed to play more than eight  games.

Finally, Florida and UGA are not in the SEC West.

[UAalumUALRlaw]

I agree with your basic premise that they should simply play a very difficult non-conference schedule if they want to be considered for a NC. Their conference schedule is simply too weak.

I have a couple of problems with your proposal though. First, I'm not a big fan of socialist policies that give the federal government control of private enterprise (like NCAA athletics). But you may be in luck. In the current political environment, the feds have no problem taking ownership of private businesses. (i.e. AIG, GM, and potentially CitiGroup)

Second, they already have an eight game conference schedule, that only leaves four spots for non-conference games. Teams are not allowed to play more than eight  games.

Finally, Florida and UGA are not in the SEC West.

[SharpTusk]

Maybe I'm not clear.   For a season Utah would be essentially part of the SEC West. 

All SEC teams play 8 SEC games per year with 6 being in their own division and 2 being from the other division.  Arkansas's permanent eastern opponent is South Carolina, and we'll rotate among the others. 

Utah would play 6 Western division games and 2 eastern division games.   

Am I serious?  It's only a A Modest Proposal !

[UAalumUALRlaw]

Maybe I'm not clear.   For a season Utah would be essentially part of the SEC West. 

All SEC teams play 8 SEC games per year with 6 being in their own division and 2 being from the other division.  Arkansas's permanent eastern opponent is South Carolina, and we'll rotate among the others. 

Utah would play 6 Western division games and 2 eastern division games.   

Am I serious?  It's only a A Modest Proposal !

Ahhh, you mean actually making them an honorary member of the SEC West. I thought you simply wanted them to add SEC West teams as their non-conference games.

I wrote an interesting faux-modest proposal research paper on Swift my sophomore year of college. The professor gave me a C, I complained to the English department, got my grade changed to an A, and she was sanctioned (maybe even fired).

[UAalumUALRlaw]

Ahhh, you mean actually making them an honorary member of the SEC West. I thought you simply wanted them to add SEC West teams as their non-conference games.

I wrote an interesting faux-modest proposal research paper on Swift my sophomore year of college. The professor gave me a C, I complained to the English department, got my grade changed to an A, and she was sanctioned (maybe even fired).

BTW, nice modest proposal reference, especially in the context of the insanity in Congress.

[SharpTusk]

Utah's AG has made serious moves.   If he turned it up a notch, why not get a sponsor for legislation of this type and see whether they have the stomach for such a thing?   

I'm sick of hearing how some school gets the BCS shaft. 

[UAalumUALRlaw]

Utah's AG has made serious moves.   If he turned it up a notch, why not get a sponsor for legislation of this type and see whether they have the stomach for such a thing?   

I'm sick of hearing how some school gets the BCS shaft.

Why not? JMHO, but unless you are a socialist, you should not support legislation that enables the government to micromanage or take ownership of a private enterprise. Let the market induce these changes. It alreaedy is to some extent, Utah and other teams like Utah are realizing that they're gonna have to play tougher non conference schedules if they want to get to the BCS title game. That's why they haven't made it there yet.

[razorhog29]

Didn't Utah spank Alabama last year in a bcs bowl?

[donewithdale]

Didn't Utah spank Alabama last year in a bcs bowl?

Yes.  That isn't the point.

[The Hogfather]

Didn't Utah spank Alabama last year in a bcs bowl?

Did they really??!?!!!??!?  Holy $hit!

[SharpTusk]

Dude, it's not about some grand socialist scheme. It's to the contrary.  Sometimes when you give people what they want, they decide they really don't want it. 

If the Utah AG wants to tap the shoulders of the GOVERNMENT (i.e. he's drawing first blood) in order to compel some change in a FOOTBALL system, then sunset legislation compelling them to do what they should do in the first place, i.e. PLAY IN A TOUGH LEAGUE, ups the ante on whether Utah wants government interference in the first place and focuses the issues of taking care of matters on the FOOTBALL FIELD.

Indeed, Utah should jump at the opportunity. Any hesitation otherwise would show them as cowards and belly-achers. 

[StreetThief99]

Utah may have been the second best team in the nation last year. A playoff would likely have shown this.

[John Futrall]

All D1 teams should play in the SEC which eliminates the rest of those lesser conferences....problem solved

[SharpTusk]

Didn't Utah spank Alabama last year in a bcs bowl?

Do you think that Utah would do it again in the middle of the season? 

Like I said, by seventh or eighth game of the season, they'd be running with a 3rd to 4th string tailback and might not have a QB who's ever started a game by then. 

Why is it that Utah's computer numbers don't get them into a BCS game?   

I'd never played fantasy football until last year.  In my first effort on Sportingnews.com, my team placed 136 out of 15,000+ teams.  Of the teams on Utah's schedule, as I recall, Utah State, San Jose St., Wyoming, and San Diego State were in the last third of the worst Defensive Teams in the country.  At different times I recall Utah St., and maybe Wyoming, were giving up an average of 40 points per game! 

Only TCU, Oregon, and BYU had SEC caliber defenses. 

When a team gets to practice offense all year long against opponents, it can muster up the ability to win a single game. 

If Utah were to get through this schedule with one loss, maybe it's good enough to be in the National Championship game. 

Instead of doing just that, Utah's Attorney General (our equivalent to Dustin McDaniel) is seeking help from the Federal Government to make COLLEGE FOOTBALL change its rules.

If that happens, then maybe we should institute a soccer off-sides rule for football.  If our receivers can't go past their D-backs, then maybe they'd have a chance to catch the ball too !!  

[SharpTusk]

All D1 teams should play in the SEC which eliminates the rest of those lesser conferences....problem solved

BUMP !!

[SharpTusk]

Yes.  That isn't the point.

AMEN !!

[StreetThief99]

Do you think that Utah would do it again in the middle of the season? 

Like I said, by seventh or eighth game of the season, they'd be running with a 3rd to 4th string tailback and might not have a QB who's ever started a game by then. 

Why is it that Utah's computer numbers don't get them into a BCS game?   

I'd never played fantasy football until last year.  In my first effort on Sportingnews.com, my team placed 136 out of 15,000+ teams.  Of the teams on Utah's schedule, as I recall, Utah State, San Jose St., Wyoming, and San Diego State were in the last third of the worst Defensive Teams in the country.  At different times I recall Utah St., and maybe Wyoming, were giving up an average of 40 points per game! 

Only TCU, Oregon, and BYU had SEC caliber defenses. 

When a team gets to practice offense all year long against opponents, it can muster up the ability to win a single game. 

If Utah were to get through this schedule with one loss, maybe it's good enough to be in the National Championship game. 

Instead of doing just that, Utah's Attorney General (our equivalent to Dustin McDaniel) is seeking help from the Federal Government to make COLLEGE FOOTBALL change its rules.

If that happens, then maybe we should institute a soccer off-sides rule for football.  If our receivers can't go past their D-backs, then maybe they'd have a chance to catch the ball too !!

So you don't like Utah and you don't want the government involved. who cares? and Keep in mind there's a HUGE difference between asking for a playoff and asking for a football rule change. weak point.

I think Utah could've taken on any SEC team last year. I also think the NCAA is too strong and has monopolistic tendencies. The only appeal goes to the government.

[donewithdale]

So you don't like Utah and you don't want the government involved. who cares? and Keep in mind there's a HUGE difference between asking for a playoff and asking for a football rule change. weak point.

I think Utah could've taken on any SEC team last year. I also think the NCAA is too strong and has monopolistic tendencies. The only appeal goes to the government.

So you don't like Utah and you don't want the government involved. who cares? and Keep in mind there's a HUGE difference between asking for a playoff and asking for a football rule change. weak point.

I think Utah could've taken on any SEC team last year. I also think the NCAA is too strong and has monopolistic tendencies. The only appeal goes to the government.

Sure Utah could have taken on any SEC team last year.  How would they have done playing 8 and then playing in an SEC CG?  One game scenarios are different from going the physical grind of the SEC that tests depth and mental part of it.  One could argue if Utah had an SEC recruiting budget that they could maybe compete at a high level.  But they don't. 

[The Great Hambino]

Sent this to my buddy from Utah.  Here is his emailed response. Wanted to post for all to see..
---------------------
This is completely asinine.! Third or fourth string tailback, right. During the Alabama game it was very clear to see who was delivering the hits, and it was not Alabama's defense. The Utes tailback was dragging three or four crimson defenders everytime he touched the ball. It is this 'God Complex' that is embraced by SEC fans that has completely turned me off of SEC football. Alabama was the second place SEC team, and won the west, and the Utes spanked them all over the field. So, I have a very hard time understanding how playing in the SEC west would change that fact? The author seems to suggest that Utah is non deserving of a title shot because of their weak schedule, and that they would not be in the situation were they playing in the SEC. Once again, it comes back to the 'God Complex' and condescending attitude towards every other conference in the country. I do not care how many titles the SEC has won over the past years, they win them in a flawed system. I would bet my truck that if the Utes were given the chance in 2005 and 2009 they would have won the title game, but we will never know. The Utes smashed the best the SEC has to offer, but yet closed minded SEC fans continue to complain when someone tries to take action and make change. The reason people complain is because they do not want to share the pie. I am certain that if any SEC team called up Utah, BYU, TCU, or even Utah State, they would welcome and embrace a home and home scheduling deal, but that will not happen. The SEC schools are more than happy to bring a team in, like Wyoming at Rocky Top(As a reminder, Wyoming won that game), but I surely doubt the Vols will be making the trip to Laramie this fall. I just checked and they are not. I am completely rambling, but the point is this....SEC fans.. quit trying to down play the accomplishments of every other school outside your 'eden' of football. Also, where the HELL does a hog fan get the right to even begin to downplay a team like Utah. The Utes would have spanked, whipped, and eventually cremated the Hogs last year. Utah State almost beat them at home a couple of years ago. When the Hogs  begin to win, I do not care that they beat LSU, then the fans may begin to oink about something, until then, eat your slop!
-------------------------
I laughed.  I did lose a bet to the guy betting on the Bama-Utah game.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

Utah Utes should have what they want!  RESPECT.  But they'll never get the respect they deserve with this schedule.



Utah's attorney general has been raising Cain about the inherent unfairness of the BCS system.

First, he was going to conduct his own investigation as if there were enough folks to answer his questions inside the State of Utah. His next step was to complain to members of Congress, some of whom took up his mantra (like a Congressman from Texas) to call for legislation regarding a college football playoff system. Now that a legislative movement has failed because of other more pressing issues (imagine that!) than Utah getting hosed for the National Championship game, he's now pressing the Department of Justice for yet another anti-trust investigation.

The modest proposal is simply to counter Utah's AG's efforts with simple, straightforward law that Utah play a schedule where, if they succeed, they should be a lock for the National Championship game. All of the extra travel expenses for the schools as well as the buyouts might run an extra 8 million dollars or so. Pay-per-view revenue for fans who can't travel, some extra tv appearances, and the extra games will make it approachable. I imagine we can rustle up some private money and keep government's responsibility to a minimum.

Waiting to see how these folks behave, I’ve drafted a modest legislative proposal to submit to a U.S. Senator friend of ours for the Utah Utes for 2009-2010 football season.  To vastly improve Utah’s BCS ranking, it needs an SEC West schedule.  Being from Arkansas and being hospitable and all, we can fit them into an SEC West Schedule playing 8 SEC games. 

We’d save considerable time and money working the schedule this way and besides, matters should be settled on the field, right?   The situation just needs a little help. 

In fact, it’s hardly an inconvenience for most teams on this schedule, and without any doubt revenue can be found to accomplish this schedule. Only 3 SEC teams  would need to buy out non-conference games and playing 13 games will help Utah just like playing in the SEC Championship Game.  Utah shouldn’t flinch!  



First, Utah has the usual number of non-conference opponents at the beginning of the season and BYU at the end.  We’ll leave those in place. 

Utah has an open conference date of October 3, 2009.  It so happens that the Florida Gators have that date open.  Utah’s indoctrination into the SEC would begin with a friendly visit to the Swamp. 

On October 10, 2009, Mississippi State has a non-conference game with Houston which could be bought out for not too much.  The Bulldogs would go to Salt Lake City.

See how accommodating we could be! 

It so happens that on October 17, 2009, another SEC West team has an open date.  The Utes get to travel to Death Valley in Baton Rouge to face LSU.  Geaux Utes!

Of course every SEC West team gets to play 2 teams from the Eastern Division, and it so happens that Georgia’s schedule is open for October 24, 2009.  Utah would be more than happy to host.  Don’t you think?

Well, the next week gets a little sticky.  Ooops, no it doesn’t!   Look here.  Alabama has an open date!!    Georgia went to Utah last week, so Utah gets to go to Tuscaloosa on October 31, 2009, for a rematch. Happy Halloween!!!

On November 7, 2009, we’ll have to reschedule Ole Miss’s game with Northern Arizona so that Houston Nutt’s bunch can go play in Salt Lake.  Have you Utes ever seen airplanes with derogatory banners ever flying overhead? 

On November 14, 2009, Arkansas will have to buy out its game with Troy, but we’ll be happy to host Utah in Fayetteville !!   Go get ‘em Bobby!!

And isn’t this convenient? Auburn has an open week on November 21, 2009.  Chizik and Malzahn will have to travel to Salt Lake with the Auburn Tigers. 

Utah can play BYU to finish out the season...at least until their shot at the National Championship Game after going undefeated! 

I would love to see how good Utah's fourth string tailback is by the 8th game of the season or whether their first and second string quarterbacks can take an SEC pounding all year. How well would they do against Alabama after playing LSU and Georgia the two previous weeks?

It’s only a modest proposal.

How about we just trade schedules with them this coming season and see who has the better record at the end of the year?

[oldhawg]

The Mountain West Conference has a pretty good argument:

"The MWC was one of three conferences with at least three teams ranked in the top 16 (Big 12 - 4, SEC - 3) of the final poll - Utah (12-0) ranked No. 6, TCU (10-2) 11th and BYU (10-2) at No. 16.

The MWC was 6-2 against the PAC 12 in 2008.

Over the past five seasons, the MWC owns the best win percentage in bowl games among the 11 conferences with a 14-7 mark (.667). The SEC is second with a 24-13 (.649) record, followed by the Pac-10 at 18-10 (.643). The MWC also is 7-3 against BCS automatic-qualifying conferences in bowl games since 2004.

The Mountain West Conference sent five teams into postseason bowl games in 2008, tying the league record set in 2007. The Mountain West has earned 36 bowl bids since 1999 and holds a 21-15 all-time record."

I would say that the MWC is as good or better than the Big 12, Pac 10, Big 10, and ACC.  Why shouldn't they be a BCS Conference with a chance to play for the national title. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

The Mountain West Conference has a pretty good argument:

"The MWC was one of three conferences with at least three teams ranked in the top 16 (Big 12 - 4, SEC - 3) of the final poll - Utah (12-0) ranked No. 6, TCU (10-2) 11th and BYU (10-2) at No. 16.

The MWC was 6-2 against the PAC 12 in 2008.

Over the past five seasons, the MWC owns the best win percentage in bowl games among the 11 conferences with a 14-7 mark (.667). The SEC is second with a 24-13 (.649) record, followed by the Pac-10 at 18-10 (.643). The MWC also is 7-3 against BCS automatic-qualifying conferences in bowl games since 2004.

The Mountain West Conference sent five teams into postseason bowl games in 2008, tying the league record set in 2007. The Mountain West has earned 36 bowl bids since 1999 and holds a 21-15 all-time record."

I would say that the MWC is as good or better than the Big 12, Pac 10, Big 10, and ACC.  Why shouldn't they be a BCS Conference with a chance to play for the national title. 

OK, I am more than willing to be proven wrong.

1. What was the SOS of the three teams you mentioned at first? Utah's was pretty good, what about the others?

2. It is the Pac 10, not the Pac 12 but even so, who did they play in those games where they had that stellar record and what were the records of the teams they played?

3. Who did the MWC play in those bowl games and which bowl games did they play in?

4. How do you equate them to being as good as the BCS Conferences?(your answers up to this point should prove this out)

[The Great Hambino]

The Mountain West Conference has a pretty good argument:

"The MWC was one of three conferences with at least three teams ranked in the top 16 (Big 12 - 4, SEC - 3) of the final poll - Utah (12-0) ranked No. 6, TCU (10-2) 11th and BYU (10-2) at No. 16.

The MWC was 6-2 against the PAC 12 in 2008.

Over the past five seasons, the MWC owns the best win percentage in bowl games among the 11 conferences with a 14-7 mark (.667). The SEC is second with a 24-13 (.649) record, followed by the Pac-10 at 18-10 (.643). The MWC also is 7-3 against BCS automatic-qualifying conferences in bowl games since 2004.

The Mountain West Conference sent five teams into postseason bowl games in 2008, tying the league record set in 2007. The Mountain West has earned 36 bowl bids since 1999 and holds a 21-15 all-time record."

I would say that the MWC is as good or better than the Big 12, Pac 10, Big 10, and ACC.  Why shouldn't they be a BCS Conference with a chance to play for the national title. 

But, the MWC is mostly playing the mid-tier teams from BCS conferences in those bowl games. I'm better their bowl record would be a lot worse if they played the schools that were in good BCS bowls each year.

[donewithdale]

The Mountain West Conference has a pretty good argument:

"The MWC was one of three conferences with at least three teams ranked in the top 16 (Big 12 - 4, SEC - 3) of the final poll - Utah (12-0) ranked No. 6, TCU (10-2) 11th and BYU (10-2) at No. 16.

The MWC was 6-2 against the PAC 12 in 2008.

Over the past five seasons, the MWC owns the best win percentage in bowl games among the 11 conferences with a 14-7 mark (.667). The SEC is second with a 24-13 (.649) record, followed by the Pac-10 at 18-10 (.643). The MWC also is 7-3 against BCS automatic-qualifying conferences in bowl games since 2004.

The Mountain West Conference sent five teams into postseason bowl games in 2008, tying the league record set in 2007. The Mountain West has earned 36 bowl bids since 1999 and holds a 21-15 all-time record."

I would say that the MWC is as good or better than the Big 12, Pac 10, Big 10, and ACC.  Why shouldn't they be a BCS Conference with a chance to play for the national title. 

Oh where do I start with this? 

Rankings are usually done on records.  Its why you see Ball St cracking the top 25 last season or Tulsa. 

The MWC vs the Pac 10 in 08:

BYU 28 Wash 27
BYU 59 UCLA 0
Arizona 31 BYU 21 LV Bowl

Cal 42 Col St 7

New Mexico 36 Az 28

TCU 31 Stan 14

UNLV 23 #15 Az St 20 - The only win MWC vs ranked Pac 10 team

Utah 31 Oregon St 28

Yep 6-2.  1-1 vs Az and 5 wins over Stan, Washington, Oregon St, Az St and UCLA.  Boy that really shows that the MWC is superior to the Pac 10.  No games vs SC, one vs Cal and it was a big loss, one vs Oregon St and Utah barely won, no games vs Oregon.  Lets see how the MWC would do visiting Autzen and then going to the Coliseum and then hosting an Oregon St or Cal in consecutive weeks. 

Lets look at the MWC bowls.  This is one impressive list of bowls and opponents:

New Mexico Bowl
New Mexico beat Fresno St

Las Vegas Bowl
BYU lost to Arizona

Poinsettia
TCU 17 Boise 16

Helicopter
Houston 34 MWC Air Force 28

Sugar
Utah big over Bama

Do we need to list the SEC, Big 12 or Big 10's bowl tie ins and their opponents?  Let the MWC play the SEC's bowl opponents for 10 years.  That ESPN trophy is a farce.  Its been decided before the SEC even begins playing bowl games many years. 


With the exception of last year's Utah and maybe one BYU team or the Utah team that beat Pitt in the Fiesta Bowl, the MWC has produced nothing more than teams that would be bottom feeders or maybe overachieve to middle of the pack status in the Big 12, Big 10, Pac 10 or SEC.  Because they have one team every so often that could come close to competing for 8 games in a major conference doesn't mean the conference as a whole is close to that level. Forget about trying to twist stats to show they are better.

Give Colorado St Ohio St's sched and see what happens.  Let New Mexico trade with Az St. and lets see how they do in the Pac 10. 

[UAalumUALRlaw]

Dude, it's not about some grand socialist scheme. It's to the contrary.  Sometimes when you give people what they want, they decide they really don't want it. 

If the Utah AG wants to tap the shoulders of the GOVERNMENT (i.e. he's drawing first blood) in order to compel some change in a FOOTBALL system, then sunset legislation compelling them to do what they should do in the first place, i.e. PLAY IN A TOUGH LEAGUE, ups the ante on whether Utah wants government interference in the first place and focuses the issues of taking care of matters on the FOOTBALL FIELD.

Indeed, Utah should jump at the opportunity. Any hesitation otherwise would show them as cowards and belly-achers.

There are four totally separate issues here.

1. Whether or not Utah deserved to play in the NCG last year.
2. Whether or not there should be a playoff.
3. Whether or not the current system should be amended to allow non-BCS a better chance at making the NCG; and
4. Whether or not the government should force the NCAA to take a particular route.

To question #1, I answer MAYBE. There is no way to know, they owned Alabama which supports their argument,they also went undefeated in a very good Mountain West conference. But their schedule was nowhere near as strong as UF's or OU's.

To question #2, I answer YES. A playoff would answer all of these questions.

To question #3, I answer NO. The current system should not be amended, it should be scrapped and replaced with a playoff.

To question #4, I answer NO.  The NCAA should enjoy autonomy from the federal goernment. If the government forces a playoff, what are they going to force next?

[oldhawg]

"Let the MWC play the SEC's bowl opponents for 10 years.  That ESPN trophy is a farce.  Its been decided before the SEC even begins playing bowl games many years."



I believe it is a gross error to compare the MWC to the SEC when determining their BCS eligibility.  If you want to compare the MWC to the SEC, then you should make the same comparison with the Big East, ACC, and Big Ten ----and you would find them all lacking in comparison to the SEC.  The question that should be asked is the MWC stacks up against BCS conferences other that the SEC.  If you will take off the blinders and widen your focus a little (forget about the SEC) you would see that the MWC is just as desrving as some of these other conferences when it comes to automatic BCS bowl bids.

The area where the MWC lags behind is in average attendance, which is probabbly the real reason that they are not seriously considered the equal of the Big East, ACC, et al. 

[donewithdale]

Lets look at the MWC vs the BCS conferences in 08:

Air Force = 0 BCS conf opponents

BYU 2-1 vs the Pac 10

Col St 0-2 blowout losses to Col(5-7) and Cal(9-4) yet CSU beat Fresno in a bowl so I guess that is supposed to be impressive

New Mexico 1-1 loss to Texas A&M(4-8)

SD St 0-1 loss to Notre Dame

TCU 1-1 blowout loss to OU

UNLV 2-0 with wins over Az St(5-7) and Iowa St(2-10)

Utah 3-0 wins over Mich 25-23 (3-9), Oregon St(9-4) by 3 and Bama(12-2)

Wyoming 1-0 win over Tenn (5-7)

10-6 with 2 wins vs ranked teams

3 of the 10 wins by the conference champ - Take out Utah's 2 good wins and the results are actually pretty pathetic.

They played fewer than 2 BCS opponents per team on avg including bowls. 

[donewithdale]

"Let the MWC play the SEC's bowl opponents for 10 years.  That ESPN trophy is a farce.  Its been decided before the SEC even begins playing bowl games many years."



I believe it is a gross error to compare the MWC to the SEC when determining their BCS eligibility.  If you want to compare the MWC to the SEC, then you should make the same comparison with the Big East, ACC, and Big Ten ----and you would find them all lacking in comparison to the SEC.  The question that should be asked is the MWC stacks up against BCS conferences other that the SEC.  If you will take off the blinders and widen your focus a little (forget about the SEC) you would see that the MWC is just as desrving as some of these other conferences when it comes to automatic BCS bowl bids.

The area where the MWC lags behind is in average attendance, which is probabbly the real reason that they are not seriously considered the equal of the Big East, ACC, et al. 

Conveniently skip the part where I said let them play Oh St or Az St's schedules?  Or maybe you missed the scenario about them playing in Autzen, the Coliseum and then having to host a good Pac 10 team?


I look fwd to this season.  Utah is going to Autzen.  Oklahoma and Fl St play the MWC.  Wyoming has to go to Austin.  Air Force actually plays a BCS conference opponent. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

There are four totally separate issues here.

1. Whether or not Utah deserved to play in the NCG last year.
2. Whether or not there should be a playoff.
3. Whether or not the current system should be amended to allow non-BCS a better chance at making the NCG; and
4. Whether or not the government should force the NCAA to take a particular route.

To question #1, I answer MAYBE. There is no way to know, they owned Alabama which supports their argument,they also went undefeated in a very good Mountain West conference. But their schedule was nowhere near as strong as UF's or OU's.

To question #2, I answer YES. A playoff would answer all of these questions.

To question #3, I answer NO. The current system should not be amended, it should be scrapped and replaced with a playoff.

To question #4, I answer NO.  The NCAA should enjoy autonomy from the federal goernment. If the government forces a playoff, what are they going to force next?

I would say that I was still waiting for an answer, but "donewithdale" has already answered it for you. He gave a great answer to your assertion and it proves my point. If Utah wants to be a BCS Conference school, then join a BCS Conference and play their schedule. Until then, rely on the good graces of the pollsters to occasionally put you in a position to play in a BCS bowl. But until that time, MWC schools and their fans need to can the whining.

[ErieHog]

Do you think that Utah would do it again in the middle of the season? 

Absolutely.  The Sugar Bowl wasn't even remotely close-- and it was one of Utah's poorer offensive performances of the entire season.

[oldhawg]

Lets look at the MWC vs the BCS conferences in 08:

Air Force = 0 BCS conf opponents

BYU 2-1 vs the Pac 10

Col St 0-2 blowout losses to Col(5-7) and Cal(9-4) yet CSU beat Fresno in a bowl so I guess that is supposed to be impressive

New Mexico 1-1 loss to Texas A&M(4-8)

SD St 0-1 loss to Notre Dame

TCU 1-1 blowout loss to OU

UNLV 2-0 with wins over Az St(5-7) and Iowa St(2-10)

Utah 3-0 wins over Mich 25-23 (3-9), Oregon St(9-4) by 3 and Bama(12-2)

Wyoming 1-0 win over Tenn (5-7)

10-6 with 2 wins vs ranked teams

3 of the 10 wins by the conference champ - Take out Utah's 2 good wins and the results are actually pretty pathetic.

They played fewer than 2 BCS opponents per team on avg including bowls. 

Of course other BCS teams play more play BCS games because they are in BCS conferences.  If you look at the nonconference schedules of BCS schools you will find they also average about two games a season against other BCS schools.  If the MWC was a BCS conference, as they should be, their competition against BCS schools would equal any other school's.

It is easy enough to say that the MWC would not be very successful against Texas and Southern Cal (how many teams are), but give the top teams in the MWC the same schedule as Ohio State or Texas  and they would be just as sucessful.  At the other end of the spectrum, give New Mexico the same schedule as Baylor, and the UNM would equal Baylor's level of success over the long haul. 

Let the MWC play the bowl schedule of the ACC or the Big East, and they also would be as successful as these other BCS conferences. 

[SharpTusk]

Sent this to my buddy from Utah.  Here is his emailed response. Wanted to post for all to see..
---------------------
This is completely asinine.! Third or fourth string tailback, right. During the Alabama game it was very clear to see who was delivering the hits, and it was not Alabama's defense. The Utes tailback was dragging three or four crimson defenders everytime he touched the ball. It is this 'God Complex' that is embraced by SEC fans that has completely turned me off of SEC football. Alabama was the second place SEC team, and won the west, and the Utes spanked them all over the field. So, I have a very hard time understanding how playing in the SEC west would change that fact? The author seems to suggest that Utah is non deserving of a title shot because of their weak schedule, and that they would not be in the situation were they playing in the SEC. Once again, it comes back to the 'God Complex' and condescending attitude towards every other conference in the country. I do not care how many titles the SEC has won over the past years, they win them in a flawed system. I would bet my truck that if the Utes were given the chance in 2005 and 2009 they would have won the title game, but we will never know. The Utes smashed the best the SEC has to offer, but yet closed minded SEC fans continue to complain when someone tries to take action and make change. The reason people complain is because they do not want to share the pie. I am certain that if any SEC team called up Utah, BYU, TCU, or even Utah State, they would welcome and embrace a home and home scheduling deal, but that will not happen. The SEC schools are more than happy to bring a team in, like Wyoming at Rocky Top(As a reminder, Wyoming won that game), but I surely doubt the Vols will be making the trip to Laramie this fall. I just checked and they are not. I am completely rambling, but the point is this....SEC fans.. quit trying to down play the accomplishments of every other school outside your 'eden' of football. Also, where the HELL does a hog fan get the right to even begin to downplay a team like Utah. The Utes would have spanked, whipped, and eventually cremated the Hogs last year. Utah State almost beat them at home a couple of years ago. When the Hogs  begin to win, I do not care that they beat LSU, then the fans may begin to oink about something, until then, eat your slop!
-------------------------
I laughed.  I did lose a bet to the guy betting on the Bama-Utah game.

Thanks sgrant323 !!! And I'm serious!   I hope you also sent him my other responses because I specifically acknowledged BYU, TCU, and Oregon.  I'm not one to make personal attack replies.  A thick hide goes a long way.

Your buddy did just as I thought Utah or its AG would do.  They are continually complaining about fairness but doing little in terms of scheduling to change that. 

Is Utah trying to join the PAC10?  If they are, I haven't heard.  Are there any efforts to create a better conference?

As Arkansas fans we know exactly the criticism Utah is going through from Southwest Conference days.   Surely there were times were the old Southwest Conference was tops from top to bottom, but the reality was that it had 3-4 good teams year in and out.  That simple fact was a polling liability. 

When Arkansas came into the SEC, times haven't always been good in part because there aren't 6-7 conference and non-conference GUARANTEED WINS on the schedule anymore.   

I don't know what back Mr. Utah thinks they have, but few starting tailbacks go through an SEC season without injury.  Doesn't he understand that?

Here are the 2008 Points For and  Points Against averages for Utah's 2009 schedule:

Utah State        24.00    34.67
San Jose St.     18.67     21.58
Oregon             41.92    28.08
Louisville           24.67    29.83
Colorado           20.17    29.25
UNLV                25.58    32.58
Air Force           26.77    22.33
Wyoming           12.67    27.65
New Mexico       21.08    22.75
TCU                  33.62   11.31
San Diego St.     19.25   37.17
BYU                  34.23   21.92

Of course, most of these averages are scored against conference teams.    This dovetails with my other post which I'm about to give away.   

In SEC Conference games, a team will win with fewer than 22 points only 20% of the time.   Five of the teams on Utah's schedule have such piss poor offensive efforts that minimal offensive efforts would outscore them. 

On the other end of the spectrum, an SEC team will win a conference game 90% of the time when it scores 28 points or more.  Four other teams gave up so many points on average to poorer competition that they could hardly be expected to win in the SEC. 

The simple fact of the matter is that Utah plays 9 games of its 12 where it's opponents are weak on one side of the ball or the other. 

When Utah gets tougher competition, they can complain about their "slice of the pie."   

[UAalumUALRlaw]

I would say that I was still waiting for an answer, but "donewithdale" has already answered it for you. He gave a great answer to your assertion and it proves my point. If Utah wants to be a BCS Conference school, then join a BCS Conference and play their schedule. Until then, rely on the good graces of the pollsters to occasionally put you in a position to play in a BCS bowl. But until that time, MWC schools and their fans need to can the whining.

I'm not sure understand what you mean. I agree with everything you said. Would you mind clarifying what you thought my assertion was. I think we agree with each other.

Thanks

[SharpTusk]

MuskogeeHogFan,   I'd like to see us trade schedules except for all of the crappy football we'd be watching. 

[LZH]

Utah?  They shore gotta purdy mouth.

[MuskogeeHogFan]

I'm not sure understand what you mean. I agree with everything you said. Would you mind clarifying what you thought my assertion was. I think we agree with each other.

Thanks

My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote "oldhawg". Sorry about that. That is what I get for trying to talk onthe phone and key in a post at the same time. 

[oldhawg]

"I would say that I was still waiting for an answer, but "donewithdale" has already answered it for you. He gave a great answer to your assertion and it proves my point. If Utah wants to be a BCS Conference school, then join a BCS Conference and play their schedule. Until then, rely on the good graces of the pollsters to occasionally put you in a position to play in a BCS bowl. But until that time, MWC schools and their fans need to can the whining."

"My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote "oldhawg". Sorry about that. That is what I get for trying to talk onthe phone and key in a post at the same time."




Just to keep the record straight, I am firstly and foremostly a Razorback and SEC fan.  However I do actively attend games and support the Naval Academy and TCU when possible (my kids' alma maters).  I am not whining about the plight of MWC schools; I just happen to believe that they have proven to be every bit as good as the Big East, the ACC, and the Pac Ten----not singling out schools like Southern Cal, although I think Utah could have given them a run for their money this year (just as I think Alabama could have held their own against USC).

You say they should join a BCS conference; I say that the MWC should be a BCS conference.  Granted, the SEC they are not, but neither is the ACC or the Big East or the Pac Ten.

[SharpTusk]

Just to keep the record straight, I am firstly and foremostly a Razorback and SEC fan.  However I do actively attend games and support the Naval Academy and TCU when possible (my kids' alma maters).  I am not whining about the plight of MWC schools; I just happen to believe that they have proven to be every bit as good as the Big East, the ACC, and the Pac Ten----not singling out schools like Southern Cal, although I think Utah could have given them a run for their money this year (just as I think Alabama could have held their own against USC).

You say they should join a BCS conference; I say that the MWC should be a BCS conference.  Granted, the SEC they are not, but neither is the ACC or the Big East or the Pac Ten.

I appreciate what you have to say.  I believe in part that the MWC isn't getting a BCS tie-in is that unlike the Big East and the ACC, the MWC has made no substantial efforts for conference expansion nor has it undergone the process of culling the weaker teams. 

I agree that the current state of Big East Football is not substantially greater than that of the MWC.  It takes a little history here.  The Big East began football in 1991-1992 when Miami joined the Big East.  The conference became part of the original BCS tie-in conferences in large part because Miami, West Virginia, Virginia Tech, and Syracuse were part of the football side of the Big East.

2004 and 2005 gutted Big East Football as Miami, Virginia Tech, and Boston College fled to the ACC.  At the time, the Big East's replacements included Bobby Petrino's Louisville team.

The ACC now includes Florida State, Boston College, Miami, Virginia Tech, Clemson, Maryland, Wake, NC, NCSt, GaTech, VA, & Duke.  There's enough football in the ACC to make it a BCS tie-in conference. 

I'm not sure I could say that the ACC and MWC are on equal footing. 

[MuskogeeHogFan]

"I would say that I was still waiting for an answer, but "donewithdale" has already answered it for you. He gave a great answer to your assertion and it proves my point. If Utah wants to be a BCS Conference school, then join a BCS Conference and play their schedule. Until then, rely on the good graces of the pollsters to occasionally put you in a position to play in a BCS bowl. But until that time, MWC schools and their fans need to can the whining."

"My bad, I quoted the wrong post. Meant to quote "oldhawg". Sorry about that. That is what I get for trying to talk onthe phone and key in a post at the same time."




Just to keep the record straight, I am firstly and foremostly a Razorback and SEC fan.  However I do actively attend games and support the Naval Academy and TCU when possible (my kids' alma maters).  I am not whining about the plight of MWC schools; I just happen to believe that they have proven to be every bit as good as the Big East, the ACC, and the Pac Ten----not singling out schools like Southern Cal, although I think Utah could have given them a run for their money this year (just as I think Alabama could have held their own against USC).

You say they should join a BCS conference; I say that the MWC should be a BCS conference.  Granted, the SEC they are not, but neither is the ACC or the Big East or the Pac Ten.

If teams like Utah and BYU want to be in the running for a BCS bowl every year, they need to petition the Pac 10 for admittance to that conference. I think that would be good for them, the Pac 10 and for us. I'd like to see every BCS conference expanded to a minimum of 12 teams and either everyone have a CCG or no one does. If Utah or BYU could traverse a regualr season schedule in a BCS conference, then I have no problem with them. Otherwise, they just have to live with the "at large" possibilities under the current system.

And yes, I would like to see a play-off and organizing one is possible, but we will never see a "true" play-off system like the one utilized by the FCS schools.

[ErieHog]

I'm not sure I could say that the ACC and MWC are on equal footing. 

Look at the respective conference records against out-of-conference BCS opponents, for the entire league, over an extended time period;  the MWC blows the ACC away, over the last 5 years, and is just about even over the last 10.

[dddollars]

Good post! So many ACC fans Big East fans etc...that suck at football always root for the undefeated Utah...lets face it if your not willing to play with the big boys then your not going to be playing in the big games......It was said the reason OU went to the BCS game over Texas is because Tex had a lax non-conference schedule...... So right there you see  it goes both ways.

[donewithdale]

Look at the respective conference records against out-of-conference BCS opponents, for the entire league, over an extended time period;  the MWC blows the ACC away, over the last 5 years, and is just about even over the last 10.

Just off of the top of my head, the ACC plays OOC games vs Florida and Georgia every year.  That could put a dent in a BCS record. Miami has had a series with Oklahoma in recent years plus their bowl opponents are BCS conference opponents.  They have also played a series with Florida this decade and Tennessee a few years ago before the wheels came off the Fulmer wagon.  Clemson usually has an OOC opponent like Bama last year and always plays South Carolina in their rivalry game. 

[donewithdale]

Good post! So many ACC fans Big East fans etc...that suck at football always root for the undefeated Utah...lets face it if your not willing to play with the big boys then your not going to be playing in the big games......It was said the reason OU went to the BCS game over Texas is because Tex had a lax non-conference schedule...... So right there you see  it goes both ways.

OU went because of when they lost.  They lost first, then Texas and then OU blasted Texas Tech and got the extra boost by playing Okie St and Mizzou at the end of the year. 

[ErieHog]

Just off of the top of my head, the ACC plays OOC games vs Florida and Georgia every year.  That could put a dent in a BCS record. Miami has had a series with Oklahoma in recent years plus their bowl opponents are BCS conference opponents.  They have also played a series with Florida this decade and Tennessee a few years ago before the wheels came off the Fulmer wagon.  Clemson usually has an OOC opponent like Bama last year and always plays South Carolina in their rivalry game. 

The most common BCS conference opponent for the MWC is USC.  They've owned the second best program in the Pac-10 too (Oregon State)  I can cherry pick too!

The whole body of work against other BCS conference opponents is the only relatively equitable measuring stick to use, and the MWC comes out well ahead of the Big East, and at *least* on par with the ACC.

[donewithdale]

The most common BCS conference opponent for the MWC is USC.  They've owned the second best program in the Pac-10 too (Oregon State)  I can cherry pick too!

The whole body of work against other BCS conference opponents is the only relatively equitable measuring stick to use, and the MWC comes out well ahead of the Big East, and at *least* on par with the ACC.

Cherry pick?  I admitted I haven't put the time in to research.  When Florida and Georgia are on the OOC schedule every season that is tougher than USC every so often and Oregon State.  Then add in Miami's OOC plus their bowl opponents and Florida St's bowl opponents which in recent years have been Penn St and SEC teams that is tougher than the MWC playing mostly middle of the pack mediocre Pac 10 teams. 

The MWC has been holding up last season and their OOC record as evidence they belong.  They beat 2 ranked teams at the time they played them - Bama and Az St.  Az St finished 5-7.  The rest of their wins came against mid level or bad Pac 10 teams or 3-9 Michigan or 5-7 Tennessee.

We'll see this season how they come back and play with trips to Austin and Eugene. 

[ErieHog]

Cherry pick?  I admitted I haven't put the time in to research.  When Florida and Georgia are on the OOC schedule every season that is tougher than USC every so often and Oregon State.  Then add in Miami's OOC plus their bowl opponents and Florida St's bowl opponents which in recent years have been Penn St and SEC teams that is tougher than the MWC playing mostly middle of the pack mediocre Pac 10 teams. 

The MWC has been holding up last season and their OOC record as evidence they belong.  They beat 2 ranked teams at the time they played them - Bama and Az St.  Az St finished 5-7.  The rest of their wins came against mid level or bad Pac 10 teams or 3-9 Michigan or 5-7 Tennessee.

We'll see this season how they come back and play with trips to Austin and Eugene. 

They'll do pretty well; after all, Utah  only has more BCS bowl wins than everyone not named LSU, Florida, or Georgia in the SEC.

[oldhawg]

On the other hand< MWC nonconference record, although better in recent years is mediocre since 1999:


MWC's records against the other conference 
Conference Games W L Win pct. PF PA
ACC            14     6  8    42.9 23.9 24.0
Big 10          20    6  14   30.0 18.1 24.4
Big 12         45    17  28   37.8 21.1 27.0
Big East        8     3  5     37.5 28.3 31.5
C-USA         30   18  12   60.0 27.0 22.2
Independents 36  20  16   55.6 29.0 24.4
MAC            10   5    5    50.0 23.2 26.5
Pac-10         70  26   44  37.1 19.8 26.5
SEC             15   6    9   40.0 24.1 30.1
Sun Belt       14   11   3   78.6 36.1 16.3
WAC            71   41  30  57.7 28.1 24.2
Note: Includes all current MWC teams since 1999, and TCU since 2005. 

[SharpTusk]

Lazarus P. Hog,

I'm with you buddy.  We're (I'm) not wanting to make them part of the SEC West.  "A modest proposal" is a way of putting together a set of circumstances, which no one would agree to, in order to make a point.    Thanks,  SharpTusk

[SharpTusk]

Good post! So many ACC fans Big East fans etc...that suck at football always root for the undefeated Utah...lets face it if your not willing to play with the big boys then your not going to be playing in the big games......It was said the reason OU went to the BCS game over Texas is because Tex had a lax non-conference schedule...... So right there you see  it goes both ways.

Thank you !!