Myths Dispelled This Season

[Atlhogfan1]

MA was held to a higher standard than either of the mediocre coaches before him from the jump.

Expectations weren't fluid at all. The talk was that MA was on the hot seat THIS SEASON and had to show something or get ready to get off the pot.

Even though his first years were far more productive than the previous two coaches early years had been.

What's worse is, Heath could still recruit off our tradition at the time. By the time MA got here, Heath and Pel had destroyed that tradition and made it as relevant as UNLV's tradition is today.

You are just a hater and your revisionist history about expectations will not go unchallenged. MA is here to stay for a while now. You better get used to it.

And by the way, expectations have already risen even more if Portis and Qualls come back.

You are either missing or ignoring what I was saying. 

No revisionism.  The expectations for what Mike Anderson would do as our coach in his early tenure changed when he was hired and rightly so.  They weren't reasonable before he was hired.  Are you missing the fact I am actually standing up for him? 

He is a better and more accomplished coach.  Expectations and standards for him should be higher than those for Heath or Pelphrey. 

[WarPig88]

I will say the Myth that MA teams are built for tournament play is a myth as well.

Why?

They made the finals of the SEC and the round of 32 with a competitive loss.

How does that dispel anything? Portis and Beard slumping?

[Science Fiction Greg]

Erie is right.... to say fans dont know basketball because they expected more than 1 NCAAT win of Wooford in 4 years is nuts. Qualls said after the game the Hogs are now a Top 10 program. He expects more.

That wasn't "Erie" and you didn't understand my post at all.  And neither did Eastex.  I didn't say they don't know basketball because of an expectation.  I said most people don't know basketball (pretty inarguable).  Therefore, using what most fans think as a metric for anything is idiotic.  If you think there is a reason to expect more, cite that reason.  Don't cite "well most people think."  You can look up "argumentum ad populum" if you don't understand this concept.

[Science Fiction Greg]

Jimmy Dykes would disagree with you on this one and I bet he knows more about basketball than most people.

When did Jimmy Dykes say most people know more than jack squat about basketball?  Citation, please.

[Breems]

I will say the Myth that MA teams are built for tournament play is a myth as well.

That's a myth indeed.

Coaches are not built for tournament play. Teams are.

[Science Fiction Greg]

And for the record, sure it would be nice to be further along on the rebuild than we are, but I think we are doing fine and still heading in the right direction.  Fallacious arguments about why we should be further along ("well, people think we should have more!" ugh), are not helpful to the program in any way.  This makes me think some of you are not interested in what is helpful to the program.

[oldman1015]

let me start by saying i think mike is a good coach. but one player playing a ton down the stretch who can't shoot or dribble doesn't discredit the athlete myth. coach anderson knows what he is doing but i can't figure out how this guy is getting playing time.

[The_Iceman]

That's a myth indeed.

Coaches are not built for tournament play. Teams are.

Favorable Brackets play a bigger role into all that that too. We did not get one.

[MountieDawg]

And for the record, sure it would be nice to be further along on the rebuild than we are, but I think we are doing fine and still heading in the right direction.  Fallacious arguments about why we should be further along ("well, people think we should have more!" ugh), are not helpful to the program in any way.  This makes me think some of you are not interested in what is helpful to the program.

I never said what I thought would happen with the program when MA was hired. I did think this was a Sweet 16 this year and they just missed that. I thought they would have made the tournament last year but they didn't. Looking back at the forum from when MA was hired expectations were up.  I have heard MA himself and his assistants say they expected to be to the tournament sooner.

Here I will allow you to put your expectations in writing for what you expect the next two years?  I would love to hear what you expect in year 5 and 6? You seem to think of yourself as knowing the game better than most, so let us hear from the expert?

[WarPig88]

I never said what I thought would happen with the program when MA was hired. I did think this was a Sweet 16 this year and they just missed that. I thought they would have made the tournament last year but they didn't. Looking back at the forum from when MA was hired expectations were up.  I have heard MA himself and his assistants say they expected to be to the tournament sooner.

Here I will allow you to put your expectations in writing for what you expect the next two years?  I would love to hear what you expect in year 5 and 6? You seem to think of yourself as knowing the game better than most, so let us hear from the expert?

It's interesting to see that you think that MA is a better coach than Nolan himself was.

MA came into a much more disastrous situation here and your expectation for him was to have bettered Nolan by making the Sweet 16 in his 4th season when Nolan himself only had one tournament win by the end of his 4th year. Given the SEC is a much more difficult league than the old SWC was, you must think extremely highly of MA.

[Breems]

You are either missing or ignoring what I was saying. 

No revisionism.  The expectations for what Mike Anderson would do as our coach in his early tenure changed when he was hired and rightly so.  They weren't reasonable before he was hired.  Are you missing the fact I am actually standing up for him? 

He is a better and more accomplished coach.  Expectations and standards for him should be higher than those for Heath or Pelphrey. 

I think you're generalizing on extremists.

I remember the campaign for Anderson quite well. People pointed out his ability to rebuild programs. There was little discussion of get-rich-quick schemes that would have Arkansas instantly back in Final Fours. I think most Arkansas fans generally understood that his method of building programs "the right way" and the fact that he is a system coach would require patience.

That's like saying the fan base gave up on Mike after the Ole Miss game.

[Science Fiction Greg]

I never said what I thought would happen with the program when MA was hired. I did think this was a Sweet 16 this year and they just missed that. I thought they would have made the tournament last year but they didn't. Looking back at the forum from when MA was hired expectations were up.  I have heard MA himself and his assistants say they expected to be to the tournament sooner.

Here I will allow you to put your expectations in writing for what you expect the next two years?  I would love to hear what you expect in year 5 and 6? You seem to think of yourself as knowing the game better than most, so let us hear from the expert?

My expectation is to build the program over the long haul.  Steps forward are not always possible.  Desirable, yes.  A general upward trend until we are consistent enough to expect the sweet 16 most years.  That's where I think we should desire to be at minimum.  I, unlike most apparently, realize that our team is not going to always win games, even when we should.  Most of the errors I see with regard to expectation are of the "small sample size" variety.  People need to look at trends, not at individual season outcomes.

Expecting more than one tournament win in 4 years is one of those errors.  The first couple of years' worth of results can be effectively thrown out, particularly in our dumpster fire case.  Therefore, the sample size we can really look at is two seasons.  Under-performed a bit last year, but that's not concerning.  This year was a good year by pretty much any measure, so nothing to complain about.  To me, it certainly seems like anyone that isn't satisfied with the progress to this point is either ignorant of reality or is desperately searching for reasons to be unsatisfied. 

[MountieDawg]

My expectation is to build the program over the long haul.  Steps forward are not always possible.  Desirable, yes.  A general upward trend until we are consistent enough to expect the sweet 16 most years.  That's where I think we should desire to be at minimum.  I, unlike most apparently, realize that our team is not going to always win games, even when we should.  Most of the errors I see with regard to expectation are of the "small sample size" variety.  People need to look at trends, not at individual season outcomes.

Expecting more than one tournament win in 4 years is one of those errors.  The first couple of years' worth of results can be effectively thrown out, particularly in our dumpster fire case.  Therefore, the sample size we can really look at is two seasons.  Under-performed a bit last year, but that's not concerning.  This year was a good year by pretty much any measure, so nothing to complain about.  To me, it certainly seems like anyone that isn't satisfied with the progress to this point is either ignorant of reality or is desperately searching for reasons to be unsatisfied. 

Those are reasonable expectations and I have no problem with those... Anything can happen once you get in the tournament, but Sweet 16 expectations are probably correct for the future.

[EastexHawg]

18-13 the year before with Rotnei Clarke and Marshawn Powell...among others...on the roster is a "dumpster fire"?

People who want to defend coaches must get on their knees and give thanks every day that someone invented the term "dumpster fire".

Basketball offers the best opportunity for a quick turnaround of any sport.  In the first place, fewer than ten players play significant roles on most teams.  In the second place, you can replace half of those ten significant players with one recruiting class.  In the third place, the best players on the best programs typically only play a couple of years, so almost all the top contenders' rosters are turning over every year or two.

Your opinion isn't "reality" just because you say it is.

[MikePiazza]

18-13 the year before with Rotnei Clarke and Marshawn Powell...among others...on the roster is a "dumpster fire"?

People who want to defend coaches must get on their knees and give thanks every day that someone invented the term "dumpster fire".

Basketball offers the best opportunity for a quick turnaround of any sport.  In the first place, fewer than ten players play significant roles on most teams.  In the second place, you can replace half of those ten significant players with one recruiting class.  In the third place, the best players on the best programs typically only play a couple of years, so almost all the top contenders' rosters are turning over every year or two.

Your opinion isn't "reality" just because you say it is.

But it was clear that the program wasn't going anywhere, and that 18-13 record is quite deceiving considering the soft non-conference schedule that was played.

Attendance was getting the worst it had ever been. I honestly give Pelphrey credit for coming in and taking a job where he was basically the last resort, but he didn't leave the program in any better shape than he found it, at least in my opinion.

[Biggus Piggus]

Why?

They made the finals of the SEC and the round of 32 with a competitive loss.

How does that dispel anything? Portis and Beard slumping?

Exactly. How many times has Arkansas ever gotten to the SECT final?

[PonderinHog]

I think you're generalizing on extremists.

I remember the campaign for Anderson quite well. People pointed out his ability to rebuild programs. There was little discussion of get-rich-quick schemes that would have Arkansas instantly back in Final Fours. I think most Arkansas fans generally understood that his method of building programs "the right way" and the fact that he is a system coach would require patience.

That's like saying the fan base gave up on Mike after the Ole Miss game.

I thought "his" first class was going to put us back on the map.  It all went to hell pretty quick.  The "problem" was much worse than I thought.  The future looks bright.

[EastexHawg]

But it was clear that the program wasn't going anywhere, and that 18-13 record is quite deceiving considering the soft non-conference schedule that was played.

Attendance was getting the worst it had ever been. I honestly give Pelphrey credit for coming in and taking a job where he was basically the last resort, but he didn't leave the program in any better shape than he found it, at least in my opinion.

What does attendance in 2010-2011 have to do with whether Mike Anderson could possibly have done better than one tournament appearance of any kind in four years?

Take a look at what Larry Brown has done at SMU.  He turned that program around in two seasons.  Bobby Knight had Texas Tech at 23-9 in his first season and in the Sweet Sixteen by year four.  Is Tech a basketball mecca that recruits itself?  What have they done since he left?

Denny Crum's last four Louisville teams went a combined 62-62. Rick Pitino's first four went 97-35 and he was in the Final Four by year four.

Who invented the notion that it typically takes great coaches year after year after year to build an outstanding program?  Obviously not someone who pays much attention to what goes on in the rest of the college basketball world.

[Cresthog]

Take a look at what Larry Brown has done at SMU.  He turned that program around in two seasons.  Bobby Knight had Texas Tech at 23-9 in his first season and in the Sweet Sixteen by year four.  Is Tech a basketball mecca that recruits itself?  What have they done since he left?

Denny Crum's last four Louisville teams went a combined 62-62. Rick Pitino's first four went 97-35 and he was in the Final Four by year four.

Who invented the notion that it typically takes great coaches year after year after year to build an outstanding program?  Obviously not someone who pays much attention to what goes on in the rest of the college basketball world.

How convenient of you to bring up THREE hall of fame coaches? AYFKM?

Besides, other than Pitino, the other two hires were stop gap desperation hires that in no way shape or form set either program on a path of sustainability.

It is well known that Brown has used questionable methods to land top talent at SMU and they play in a pretty weak conference. They also lost in the first round this year.

So Bobby Knight made a sweet 16? We were a decent draw and 1 win away this year. What did they do the next season?

All three of your comparisons are dog crap. Total steaming dog crap.

[MikePiazza]

What does attendance in 2010-2011 have to do with whether Mike Anderson could possibly have done better than one tournament appearance of any kind in four years?

Take a look at what Larry Brown has done at SMU.  He turned that program around in two seasons.  Bobby Knight had Texas Tech at 23-9 in his first season and in the Sweet Sixteen by year four.  Is Tech a basketball mecca that recruits itself?  What have they done since he left?

Denny Crum's last four Louisville teams went a combined 62-62. Rick Pitino's first four went 97-35 and he was in the Final Four by year four.

Who invented the notion that it typically takes great coaches year after year after year to build an outstanding program?  Obviously not someone who pays much attention to what goes on in the rest of the college basketball world.

Mike Anderson is not Bob Knight or Rick Pitino, or even Larry Brown. All three coaches have won national championships, and the former two have won multiple titles.

That being said, Mike has done an admirable job considering the culture of the program he inherited in 2011.

Last year's team I felt got snubbed out of a bid, considering they let three very similar teams into the tournament this year from the SEC that had comparable resumes to the Hogs the year before

Mike is 86-48 in four seasons with a NIT appearance and a Round of 32. It's not great, but it's also not missing the postseason completely, which Pelphrey did three times after making the tournament once with Stan Heath's players.

[Cresthog]

But just how good is the SEC this year?  Somewhere in the consideration of how good Arkansas was in 2015, the factor of how good the conference was (or was not) has to enter the picture as well.   

5 teams in the NCAAT with one crapping the bed at the end. Should have been 6.

Pretty decent.

[EastexHawg]

How convenient of you to bring up THREE hall of fame coaches? AYFKM?

No, I'm not.  Arkansas is a program with a national championship and how many Final Fours?  And yet you seem perfectly willing to say, "Let those other programs hire Hall of Fame coaches.  We're Arkansas, and a guy a few rungs down the coaching ladder is perfectly good enough for us."

Texas Tech?  SMU?  You don't think Arkansas should contend with those programs for coaching talent?

Now, who needs to ask who is bleeping kidding who?

Aim low.  It's easier to hit the mark that way.

[MikePiazza]

No, I'm not.  Arkansas is a program with a national championship and how many Final Fours?  And yet you seem perfectly willing to say, "Let those other programs hire Hall of Fame coaches.  We're Arkansas, and a guy a few rungs down the coaching ladder is perfectly good enough for us."

Texas Tech?  SMU?  You don't think Arkansas should contend with those programs for coaching talent?

Now, who needs to ask who is *** k'ing who?

Aim low.  It's easier to hit the mark that way.

Mike was a part of three of those six Final Fours the Hogs have. He helped build the program into what it was in the 90s.

He's not perfect but he will make it a perennial Top 25 program and make the tournament every year. Next year has the potential to be a special year if Portis and Qualls both elect to stay.

[Cresthog]

Now, who needs to ask who is bleeping kidding who?

Aim low.  It's easier to hit the mark that way.

Other than Pitino where did those hires land them?

Out of the first round with a "coach in waiting" and a losing season followed by Bobby Knight getting shown the door midway through the season.

You really think it would have been a prudent move to go hire a washed up, has been coach with questionable morals to return our program to glory?

How short sighted can you be?

Where is Texas Tech now and where do you expect SMU to be in 3-5 years? If you say ahead of us, you're totally full of crap.

[Atlhogfan1]

Mike was a part of three of those six Final Fours the Hogs have. He helped build the program into what it was in the 90s.

He's not perfect but he will make it a perennial Top 25 program and make the tournament every year. Next year has the potential to be a special year if Portis and Qualls both elect to stay.

Edgar and Stoglin helped some in setting us up. 

[MikePiazza]

Edgar and Stoglin helped some in setting us up.

No doubt, but Mike was here the entire time and wants to be here. He could've easily stayed at Mizzou and been like "you guys hire someone else to clean up that mess."

He came here to restore the program to its former glory. I'm inclined to believe he will.

[Science Fiction Greg]

18-13 the year before with Rotnei Clarke and Marshawn Powell...among others...on the roster is a "dumpster fire"?

People who want to defend coaches must get on their knees and give thanks every day that someone invented the term "dumpster fire".

Basketball offers the best opportunity for a quick turnaround of any sport.  In the first place, fewer than ten players play significant roles on most teams.  In the second place, you can replace half of those ten significant players with one recruiting class.  In the third place, the best players on the best programs typically only play a couple of years, so almost all the top contenders' rosters are turning over every year or two.

Your opinion isn't "reality" just because you say it is.

No, what I said is reality is reality because it is reality.  Yes, this program was a dumpster fire before Mike Anderson was hired.  I can't believe you or anyone else would argue otherwise with a straight face.  I take that back. 

...

(deleted undoubtedly unproductive past discussion resurrection--just not worth it)

[PonderinHog]

No, what I said is reality is reality because it is reality.  Yes, this program was a dumpster fire before Mike Anderson was hired.  I can't believe you or anyone else would argue otherwise with a straight face.  I take that back. 

...

(deleted undoubtedly unproductive past discussion resurrection--just not worth it)

I pretty sure he hates puppies, too.  I KNOW he hates tigers.

[Biggus Piggus]

What does attendance in 2010-2011 have to do with whether Mike Anderson could possibly have done better than one tournament appearance of any kind in four years?

Take a look at what Larry Brown has done at SMU.  He turned that program around in two seasons.  Bobby Knight had Texas Tech at 23-9 in his first season and in the Sweet Sixteen by year four.  Is Tech a basketball mecca that recruits itself?  What have they done since he left?

Denny Crum's last four Louisville teams went a combined 62-62. Rick Pitino's first four went 97-35 and he was in the Final Four by year four.

Who invented the notion that it typically takes great coaches year after year after year to build an outstanding program?  Obviously not someone who pays much attention to what goes on in the rest of the college basketball world.

Actually, it was two tournament appearances of any kind.

If MA had had the liberty to turn over the roster as quickly as those guys did in their jobs, the team would have been better, sooner. As it was, MA had more problems to manage than just talent. Not saying he always recruited the best that could be done with his available slots. But the constraints were real, too.

Would have helped a lot to have brought in a real guard with the scholarship MA used to sign Dee Wagner. They did not decide they needed another guard that season until it was too late. And also MA got to learn the joys of SEC juco recruiting restrictions, which he had never faced at UAB and Missouri.

[urkillnmesmalls]

I liked it in the post game interview that MA is already excited for next season, and that he said he WOULD win a NC at Arkansas, but he didn't know when.  He said it matter of fact and that was my favorite part of any of the interviews. 

[Cresthog]

Biggus what are the JUCO restrictions you speak of?

[PonderinHog]

Biggus what are the JUCO restrictions you speak of?

Academic requirements are higher in the SEC.  Gotta pass college algebra.

[Southern Hogspitality]

When did Jimmy Dykes say most people know more than jack squat about basketball?  Citation, please.

I used Jimmy Dykes as a reference to show that a coach making the NCAA tournament and winning a game in less than 4 years isn't an unreasonable expectation in basketball. Since he did it in 1 year, granted a 1 year turn around doesn't or shouldn't be taken as the norm.  However, it does put 3 years into the realm of possibility. 

Since you didn't clarify what part of the gentleman's post that you quoted and were trying to pick apart.   I assumed you were making a blanket statement to his whole point.  But I understand that a lot of people can get tripped up while back peddling.

So in conclusion; it wasn't a citable quote (I can't cite my own assumption) that JD made but a logical assumption I made.

[Science Fiction Greg]

I used Jimmy Dykes as a reference to show that a coach making the NCAA tournament and winning a game in less than 4 years isn't an unreasonable expectation in basketball. Since he did it in 1 year, granted a 1 year turn around doesn't or shouldn't be taken as the norm.  However, it does put 3 years into the realm of possibility. 

Since you didn't clarify what part of the gentleman's post that you quoted and were trying to pick apart.   I assumed you were making a blanket statement to his whole point.  But I understand that a lot of people can get tripped up while back peddling.

So in conclusion; it wasn't a citable quote (I can't cite my own assumption) that JD made but a logical assumption I made.

I don't think someone doing something is a reasonable basis on which to expect it to happen consistently.  I thought I was pretty clear what I was saying.  He was using a clear logical fallacy (argumentum ad populum, an appeal to popularity).  I am not, was not, and will not be back-pedaling on anything I said.  I also do not think that Coach Dykes would say it is reasonable to expect a tournament win after a complete rebuild in less than four years.  He might say it is reasonable that it could happen, but expecting or demanding it or whatever is trying to be insinuated here, no.  I don't think he would be on board with that just because he happened to pull it off.

We should also be clear that "NCAA tournament wins" are way too high variance of a metric with which to measure progress.

[Biggus Piggus]

I used Jimmy Dykes as a reference to show that a coach making the NCAA tournament and winning a game in less than 4 years isn't an unreasonable expectation in basketball. Since he did it in 1 year, granted a 1 year turn around doesn't or shouldn't be taken as the norm.  However, it does put 3 years into the realm of possibility. 

Since you didn't clarify what part of the gentleman's post that you quoted and were trying to pick apart.   I assumed you were making a blanket statement to his whole point.  But I understand that a lot of people can get tripped up while back peddling.

So in conclusion; it wasn't a citable quote (I can't cite my own assumption) that JD made but a logical assumption I made.

If 17 wins and 6-10 conference record would work in men's basketball, Arkansas would have gone to the tournament five years in a row.

[Biggus Piggus]

Biggus what are the JUCO restrictions you speak of?

One, there's a restriction that prevents SEC teams from accepting some players who began in a four-year college then transferred to juco, or didn't stay at least three semesters at their last destination in some cases. I believe it affects players who went from D-I to juco due to academic issues. Anyway, in recent years it kept Arkansas off a player who ended up going elsewhere and doing well.

Two, the SEC has a little bit higher academic progress requirement. That is why some jucos have to spend the summer in math class or something else to get eligible. They can go elsewhere and not have to do that.

SEC juco recruiting restrictions (plus Arkansas's self-imposed limits that Broyles shackled Nolan with, since lifted) ruined Stan Heath's Arkansas turnaround plan. He had intended to bring in an academically marginal juco big man who would have started right away. Took him a few days on the job to discover - whoops.

SEC rules were put in place after Mississippi State repeatedly abused the system to get jucos eligible in men's basketball.

[Cresthog]

Thanks brother. Odd to say the least.

Will be interesting to see what our plan is if both the big boys leave.

Anyone heard anymore on the kid from Memphis? I know he'd have to sit out...

[Southern Hogspitality]

We should also be clear that "NCAA tournament wins" are way too high variance of a metric with which to measure progress.

I would agree with that statement.

I think we had a great year and I am proud of this group Hogs. 

[Southern Hogspitality]

If 17 wins and 6-10 conference record would work in men's basketball, Arkansas would have gone to the tournament five years in a row.

I see what you did there.  But you forgot to mention that this year the women's SEC basketball conference was the best basketball conference.  And a committee just like in men's basketball looked at their body of work and selected them.

[Cresthog]

I see what you did there.  But you forgot to mention that this year the women's SEC basketball conference was the best basketball conference.  And a committee just like in men's basketball looked at their body of work and selected them.

This year?

Minus maybe a couple anomolies with the Big 12, when has it not been?

[Science Fiction Greg]

I would agree with that statement.

I think we had a great year and I am proud of this group Hogs.

+1

[Science Fiction Greg]

Acknowledging it is not a perfect method of measurement, it is still the best measurement available.

Not even close.  Heck, even just watching the team and ignoring the scoreboard is a better measurement. 

[Science Fiction Greg]

Ten years from now, people won't be talking about the improvement the team made over the course of this season but they will talk about how the season ended in the NCAA.

As imperfect as it is, it remains the only metric that matters.

Sigh, this again.
What people are talking about has no bearing on whether the team is improving or not.
We were talking about valid measuring methods, not "what matters" to people.  "People" in general are not knowledgeable enough to be making important decisions about the basketball team.

[urkillnmesmalls]

Ten years from now, people won't be talking about the improvement the team made over the course of this season but they will talk about how the season ended in the NCAA.

As imperfect as it is, it remains the only metric that matters.

The fact is, we lost to a NC team that took Duke to OT, and beat both Louisville and Virginia late in the season.  They've improved as the year has gone on, and they're a talented team.  With their track record, it proves to me that we can play with anyone in the country...minus KY, which at their best includes EVERY team in the NCAA.  That NC team played and beat some of the best teams out there. 

So if you look at it and say, "Well, that should have been a sweet 16 team with the talent we had," you have to take into consideration who we played in the round of 32 right?  That seems only fair, because it wasn't like we were playing a team that we "should" have beaten based on the strength of the ACC versus the strength of the SEC, and where both programs are at this point in time. 

We didn't lose a game we "should" have won based on paper.  Yet, I felt like at many times during the game we looked like the better team, but we just had a poor performance for whatever reason.  Nerves, fatigue, who knows? 

I have been critical at times, and I will continue to be.  But...for MA to bring this program to being competitive with everyone in the NCAA in four years, minus one ridiculously loaded team, that's pretty good from my perspective.     

[HawgWild]

We are certainly on an upward trend. Until we go backwards I'm not complaining. WPS

[urkillnmesmalls]

I agree with your review here, Smalls - it seems very fair and balanced.  The point I was attempting to express is that (for better or worse) many people judge the annual progress of a team based on how the season ends.  If we look at MA during his Arkansas tenure, it looks like this (from Wiki):

2011–12   Arkansas   18–14   6–10   9th   
2012–13   Arkansas   19–13   10–8   7th   
2013–14   Arkansas   22–12   10–8   5th   NIT Second Round
2014–15   Arkansas   27–9           13–5   2nd   NCAA Round of 32
Arkansas:   86–48 (.642)   39–31 (.557)   

That certainly describes an upward trend - one that all of us around here would like to see continue.  The point I was making to P.O. is the importance of that last column as a quick measure of the direction a program is heading.  It is not a perfect measure, but I will still hold that the most important measure of a team's progress is how a team finishes the season.

For me, it's simple.  If Portis and Qualls leave this year, or next year, will we get the talent in to continue the trend?  I can certainly accept a year or two of drop off when we lose that much talent, and our fans should understand that...all programs have that, even KY for a few years under Cal. 

What is yet to be determined is if this is more of a peak in the collection of talent and how they execute playing MA's system, or if there's an even higher level that he can reach with improved talent and volume of talent, and more time in his system.  That's what can't be proven out over anything but time. 

What I will say is, I am OK with some ups and down with the knowledge that we're able to continue to land some top recruits, stay competitive, and have the chance to "catch lightning in a bottle" with the right player chemistry to compete for a NC.  That's really what Nolan's teams did if you look at it objectively. 

[EastexHawg]

At what point in American sport did "progress" topple "achievement" as the ultimate measure of a team or a coach?

Progress can describe the journey from futility to mediocrity.  It's not necessarily the precursor to ultimate success.  It's a journey, not a destination.  It can reach its zenith with a particular group of players, or a weaker than normal conference or schedule, then flatten out or trend downward when the favorable conditions change.   

Progress is more easily attained when a coach takes over a poor program because even if he raises it to "fair" it's better than when he started.  Danny Ford achieved progress.  Houston Nutt furthered the progress.  Neither really achieved anything. 

If the progress continues indefinitely, of course, achievement will ultimately be attained.  We all understand that.  That said, the two words are not synonyms.  No team gets its name engraved on a trophy because it "progressed".  If some fans want to celebrate progress, that's fine.  It's not a requirement of fandom, however, to be satisfied before success itself is ultimately achieved.

[Swinesong1]

At what point in American sport did "progress" topple "achievement" as the ultimate measure of a team or a coach?

Progress can describe the journey from futility to mediocrity.  It's not necessarily the precursor to ultimate success.  It's a journey, not a destination.  It can reach its zenith with a particular group of players, or a weaker than normal conference or schedule, then flatten out or trend downward when the favorable conditions change.   

Progress is more easily attained when a coach takes over a poor program because even if he raises it to "fair" it's better than when he started.  Danny Ford achieved progress.  Houston Nutt furthered the progress.  Neither really achieved anything. 

If the progress continues indefinitely, of course, achievement will ultimately be attained.  We all understand that.  That said, the two words are not synonyms.  No team gets its name engraved on a trophy because it "progressed".  If some fans want to celebrate progress, that's fine.  It's not a requirement of fandom, however, to be satisfied before success itself is ultimately achieved.

I wonder if you expressed this sentiment on the football board?

[MountieDawg]

For me, it's simple.  If Portis and Qualls leave this year, or next year, will we get the talent in to continue the trend?  I can certainly accept a year or two of drop off when we lose that much talent, and our fans should understand that...all programs have that, even KY for a few years under Cal.

Bad example.... In 6 tears he has finished Elite 8, Final Four, NC, NIT 1st round after losing NOEL to injury, NC Runner UP and so far undefeated this season. Portis is a special player and will be hard to replace and Qualls has a will to win that pushes the team forward.

[EastexHawg]

I wonder if you expressed this sentiment on the football board?

I had already been a fan for ten years when the following took place...if it tells you anything:

Football:
1977-78  11-1, won Orange Bowl over Oklahoma, #3 in final polls
1978-79  9-2-1, tied UCLA in the Fiesta Bowl, #10 in final UPI poll...after starting the season with Lou Holtz, Ron Calcagni, and Ben Cowins on the cover of the Sports Illustrated college football issue as their preseason pick for national champions
1979-80  10-2, lost to national champ Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, #8 in final poll

Basketball:
1976-77  26-1 regular season record, 16-0 SWC champions, lost to Wake Forest in NCAA tournament
1977-78  32-4 final record, SWC champions, Final Four, finished 3rd in the NCAA tournament
1978-79  25-5, SWC champions, Elite Eight, a last second shot by Larry Bird's Indiana State team from a second straight Final Four

Oh yeah...and the 1979 Razorback baseball team made it to the championship game of the College World Series, too.

There is a reason why I don't spend much time in some of the forums anymore.  My definition of success isn't the same as some people's.