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Author Topic: Read but don't jump off the ledge  (Read 6500 times)

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Youngsta71701

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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2017, 03:47:16 pm »

True, but as soon as someone earns money from a youtube channel they are a "professional". Professionals in anything can still go to college. Shaq could still get his degrees once he became a professional. No one is saying these guys can't do commercials. They just can't do them, get paid, and play college basketball. But they could still go to school. So they have the same rights, opportunities to make money, and anything else as normal college students.

Okay. Why can't they allow students-athletes to also be professionals? They're doing all the work already, just not getting money for it outside of a scholarship and cost of attendance.
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hawg66

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2017, 03:51:56 pm »

There are some valid points there, but I will never see the room, board, tuition, swag, and extra benefits that student athletes get over any other scholarship student as a raw deal, I don't care how much money the schools are making. My employer doesn't get close to paying me my value to the bottom line, but it is what it is.

The value to the athletes is significant. The cost to the school isn't much. Room and board is about it. Integrating 400 students into a population of 20,000 is practically free to the school. They don't need to hire any additional staff, don't need to build any more classrooms, really don't have to do anything academically. The costs are pretty much fixed. Adding less than one half of one percent to the overall student  population is statistically nonexistent. College athletes are far more valuable than their compensation.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2017, 03:54:06 pm »

Okay. Why can't they allow students-athletes to also be professionals? They're doing all the work already, just not getting money for it outside of a scholarship and cost of attendance.

My stepson is tremendous on the violin. Gets paid to go school AND gets work in professionally in his field as well.

When I say paid, I mean he gets money beyond tuition, books, and room and board.

It's like people don't recognize that athletes have a skill that earns them a scholarship in their field also but aren't allowed to make money with it. It's the ONLY skill set on a campus that is treated this way.
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hawg66

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2017, 03:58:22 pm »

My stepson is tremendous on the violin. Gets paid to go school AND gets work in professionally in his field as well.

When I say paid, I mean he gets money beyond tuition, books, and room and board.

It's like people don't recognize that athletes have a skill that earns them a scholarship in their field also but aren't allowed to make money with it. It's the ONLY skill set on a campus that is treated this way.

Agreed. My daughter sang her way through college. She got scholarships , a stipend and could still sing for money outside of school.
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hogmolar

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2017, 03:59:30 pm »

My stepson is tremendous on the violin. Gets paid to go school AND gets work in professionally in his field as well.

When I say paid, I mean he gets money beyond tuition, books, and room and board.

It's like people don't recognize that athletes have a skill that earns them a scholarship in their field also but aren't allowed to make money with it. It's the ONLY skill set on a campus that is treated this way.
I understand and congrats to your son, but your son does not have the potential to effect the outcome of an event that has millions of dollars in the balance.  Yes on attendance for the school and from the betting side of things.  Money to players could effect so much more than just what they are receiving. 
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #56 on: April 11, 2017, 04:21:37 pm »

I understand and congrats to your son, but your son does not have the potential to effect the outcome of an event that has millions of dollars in the balance.  Yes on attendance for the school and from the betting side of things.  Money to players could effect so much more than just what they are receiving.

If it's a flat rate across the board it shouldn't matter.
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k.c.hawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2017, 04:32:03 pm »

I'm thinking guys that live off campus get about $1500 to $1800 a month room and board, another $300 for full cost of tuition.  3 guys get an apartment together at $600 a month each leaves them with $1200 to $1500 a month for food and....... A lot of students would take that deal. Are they giving the schools a helluva lot more than they are getting, yes! Where else can they train, get gear, get national exposure, play every game on TV and develope a potential pipeline to future success on or off the court. The schools aren't failing them......the NBA is failing in not developing a broad based developmental league for guys that aren't interested in college.
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RebHog

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2017, 07:09:48 pm »

I don't blame them at all for testing the waters but what worries me a bit is if they get feedback that their physicals/skillset wont translate in the NBA would that maybe convince them to take the overseas route now. Paying players is pure BS IMO the whole flat rate a semester extra earnings sounds good at first but hell the NCAA cant even catch the cheaters now this would just make it 10x's worse. 90% of the jobs out there whether is be corporate/industry/IT your skilled workers are low paying while the upper management/CEO rakes in millions it is what it is. If they feel so wronged go do something else or hell take the Brandon Jennings path go straight overseas make some money then enter draft when eligible if your good enough you will get drafted regardless what path you take.  You guys arguing to pay them are in the same camp as Ed FKN Obannon  :-\
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tncbg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2017, 10:07:06 pm »

They should both test the waters and find out where they stand.  Neither kid is NBA ready, but they need to see that for themselves. Both need to tighten up their ball handling. Macon needs more strength and Barford must improve his shooting. Guys with their size and skill set are a dime a dozen in the NBA d-league. They will find out that there is far more work to do and back they will come with marching orders. Their time may come, but it's not here yet.
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Rawker

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #60 on: April 12, 2017, 02:08:54 am »

Hell, it would be sweet if you could do this in more industries.  "Hey guys....my name is Joe.  I'm still in college, and you didn't really ask me to, but I'll be coming into your workplace this week, check things out and let you evaluate how I'm progressing in my desire to be in this business.  You can just put your comments in this suggestion box...I'll just leave it right here.  And you can let me know as I'm hanging around if you think I have what it takes.  If you don't....I dunno, maybe I'll just go to Europe after I finish college.  Hang out...see if there's a job there.  That'd be pretty all right though, huh?" 
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hogsanity

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #61 on: April 12, 2017, 08:25:12 am »

Eventually the paying/not paying athletes will be the downfall of college sports.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #62 on: April 12, 2017, 08:36:07 am »

Eventually the paying/not paying athletes will be the downfall of college sports.

You may be right. But it doesn't make sense to make millions and millions off these kids and offer them pretty much the same deal players were offered back in the day when colleges weren't making millions and millions off the players.
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King Kong

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #63 on: April 12, 2017, 08:43:34 am »

I don't think the Universities should pay athletes outside of the cost of living or their tuition.

But the NCAA should allow athletes to make money of their likeness. If they are able to do it which would probably be limited to star athletes
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #64 on: April 12, 2017, 09:04:04 am »

Do you think the cost of their scholarships are equal to the value they are bringing to the university? I'm not saying them getting scholarships have no value, but let's be honest and accept the fact that many of these kids aren't likely to do anything with that degree because of their upbringing. They are looking to play basketball. Major universities are making tens of millions each year off football and men's basketball players. There can't be any debate about this. Want to restrict stuff like this? Pay them and make them student-athlete-employees. Until then, the least they can do is let them explore their potential professional options.

This is coming from someone who took out student loans all throughout college and is living with that debt currently. Players like Barford and Macon enable other, non-athlete students to enjoy the University of Arkansas more and make it a more attractive school. They university is getting them for dirt cheap. You can't justify giving young men who were not raised to be academically-minded full scholarships and that's it. Even when you factor in the exposure they get from playing in the SEC, the university still gets the better end of the day by far. These kids are putting in more than they are getting out. Cost of scholarship + we'll give a generous 100k salary (which the vast majority of students will never see) post-college =/= what the schools/NCAA are making off them. There is a lot of value in being a scholarship athlete for an SEC school in men's basketball, but they aren't getting equal value or anywhere near it. They have to rely on professional basketball for that, so they should be given plenty of time to figure that out.
Imagine if everyone cried foul and brought up lawsuits every time they felt their company didn't pay them equal to what they brought in. Is there truly an employer out there that pays their employees what they are worth outside of professional sports? College athletics is essentially an entry level position in the corporate world. You work for a fraction of your worth, but you get your foot in the door and open up a world of opportunities if you succeed at that position.


Imagine if someone came to you and offered you an internship. They said we will pay for your tuition to college, give you all the resources you need to be successful in college that other students have to pay for or don't have access to, make sure you have meals and a place to live, you will be debt free, all you have to do is work for us without receiving an actual salary for 4 years. At the end of 4 years (maybe sooner) you will have a shot to make millions if you stand out among your peers. In the event that you do not make the cut (get drafted), there will be other opportunities to make 6 figures in smaller companies that we can help place you in (overseas). If neither of those work, you will have your degree in hand with no debt, plus you will have established a network second to none that will allow you to be successful. While I agree some stuff is "unfair," these kids are trying to make a career out of basketball. Most careers require you to put in some work for free or cheap in order to get where you have to go. I had many internships in college. I worked hard, didn't get compensated, but knew it was for something greater in the future.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #65 on: April 12, 2017, 09:11:47 am »

Imagine if everyone cried foul and brought up lawsuits every time they felt their company didn't pay them equal to what they brought in. Is there truly an employer out there that pays their employees what they are worth outside of professional sports? College athletics is essentially an entry level position in the corporate world. You work for a fraction of your worth, but you get your foot in the door and open up a world of opportunities if you succeed at that position.


Imagine if someone came to you and offered you an internship. They said we will pay for your tuition to college, give you all the resources you need to be successful in college that other students have to pay for or don't have access to, make sure you have meals and a place to live, you will be debt free, all you have to do is work for us without receiving an actual salary for 4 years. At the end of 4 years (maybe sooner) you will have a shot to make millions if you stand out among your peers. In the event that you do not make the cut (get drafted), there will be other opportunities to make 6 figures in smaller companies that we can help place you in (overseas). If neither of those work, you will have your degree in hand with no debt, plus you will have established a network second to none that will allow you to be successful. While I agree some stuff is "unfair," these kids are trying to make a career out of basketball. Most careers require you to put in some work for free or cheap in order to get where you have to go. I had many internships in college. I worked hard, didn't get compensated, but knew it was for something greater in the future.

Did your work as an intern directly result in your company making tens of millions of dollars annually?

Poor comparison.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #66 on: April 12, 2017, 09:40:02 am »

Did your work as an intern directly result in your company making tens of millions of dollars annually?

Poor comparison.
1 player is not making tens of millions. The team as a whole did, including coaches. These kids have access to resources and jobs that the average student doesn't after school, and that is if their dream of playing professionally doesn't pay off.

And we are talking about basketball here. Basketball has a gross revenue of $16-20 million per year, but only nets about $3-5 million per year after expenses. The football program typically nets $30-40 million, so there is a greater argument there, but there are also 85 scholarship athletes. The athletic department as a whole actually makes a profit of about $10-20 million.

FYI, my internship did result in me bringing in over $1million in gross revenue in the year that I was there. Not quite what athletes help bring in, but still quite a bit. I wasn't paid a dime other than given a recommendation and having a former boss who is as good a reference as you can have given what his position is now. Last year I brought in nearly $4 million in revenue by myself at my current company, and had a margin of $1 million. I didn't see anywhere near that as far as salary goes, but I knew what I signed up for.
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hogsanity

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #67 on: April 12, 2017, 09:49:01 am »

You may be right. But it doesn't make sense to make millions and millions off these kids and offer them pretty much the same deal players were offered back in the day when colleges weren't making millions and millions off the players.

I am not advocating for that at all. I just think that eventually the $ issue will be the end. The reason is, eventually they will start paying them, but only a few programs can afford to do so, and then really only in football and mens basketball, and that is where the problems will be. Title IX, baseball, and other issues will force all but the top earning schools out of the market.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #68 on: April 12, 2017, 09:50:39 am »

1 player is not making tens of millions. The team as a whole did, including coaches. These kids have access to resources and jobs that the average student doesn't after school, and that is if their dream of playing professionally doesn't pay off.

And we are talking about basketball here. Basketball has a gross revenue of $16-20 million per year, but only nets about $3-5 million per year after expenses. The football program typically nets $30-40 million, so there is a greater argument there, but there are also 85 scholarship athletes. The athletic department as a whole actually makes a profit of about $10-20 million.

FYI, my internship did result in me bringing in over $1million in gross revenue in the year that I was there. Not quite what athletes help bring in, but still quite a bit. I wasn't paid a dime other than given a recommendation and having a former boss who is as good a reference as you can have given what his position is now. Last year I brought in nearly $4 million in revenue by myself at my current company, and had a margin of $1 million. I didn't see anywhere near that as far as salary goes, but I knew what I signed up for.

TV contracts are paying out the money they are now because of the level of athlete that is on the field/court. I'm sorry, but not changing what comes with a college athletic scholarship to better reflect that is wrong. For football players, they have no choice but to go college because there are no other viable pro leagues for them to go to out of high school. They're being taken advantage more than basketball players, who do have the option to go make decent money elsewhere. But the old "they signed up for it" is a friggin' cop out. Wrong is wrong. These are kids!! And many of them do not come from households that an instilling good structure or decision-making. You know that. The NCAA is taking advantage of them at this point given all of the money that's rolling in. Lower the quality of athlete and the TV contracts fall off the ledge. Coaches are definitely a part of it, but they're also paid commensurate to their value, unlike the players. Period.

This whole line of logic is completely antiquated. Catch up to reality. 
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #69 on: April 12, 2017, 09:53:24 am »

I am not advocating for that at all. I just think that eventually the $ issue will be the end. The reason is, eventually they will start paying them, but only a few programs can afford to do so, and then really only in football and mens basketball, and that is where the problems will be. Title IX, baseball, and other issues will force all but the top earning schools out of the market.

I don't disagree. But they can't sign these multi-million dollar TV deals and keep all the money. It seems like allowing each player to make money off his/her likeness is the way to go. They can keep all their money and the player can bring in his own money. I think most players would agree to that.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #70 on: April 12, 2017, 10:02:41 am »

TV contracts are paying out the money they are now because of the level of athlete that is on the field/court. I'm sorry, but not changing what comes with a college athletic scholarship to better reflect that is wrong. For football players, they have no choice but to go college because there are no other viable pro leagues for them to go to out of high school. They're being taken advantage more than basketball players, who do have the option to go make decent money elsewhere. But the old "they signed up for it" is a friggin' cop out. Wrong is wrong. These are kids!! And many of them do not come from households that an instilling good structure or decision-making. You know that. The NCAA is taking advantage of them at this point given all of the money that's rolling in. Lower the quality of athlete and the TV contracts fall off the ledge. Coaches are definitely a part of it, but they're also paid commensurate to their value, unlike the players. Period.

This whole line of logic is completely antiquated. Catch up to reality. 
But if the quality of athletes falls off across the board it will still be the only product we have so people will not stop watching. People say the NBA is as bad as it has ever been because of no defense, too many threes, and "super teams." Guess what, basketball fans still watch it in high numbers because what are their other options?

These kids never seem to care that they are being taken advantage of while they are getting a stipend to buy tattoos, rims, or the new iphone that the average kid with student loans working through college may not be able to afford. They don't seem to care when they have a note taker in class so they do not have to show up or can sleep. They never complain when they are playing in Hawaii for a basketball tournament, on a trip to Spain in the summer for basketball, or playing in Orlando going to Disney world and getting an Xbox for their bowl game. However, once they leave a select few pitch a fit about it. I agree they could have their stipend increased, or maybe receive money for their likeness that goes into a trust that they can receive upon graduation, but I don't think outright paying players is the answer. Like you said, many of these kids can only play sports to get out of their situations they are in when they accept a scholarship. While they may be taken advantage of, athletics provides these kids a head start in life that they would have zero shot at without, so how do you truly put a monetary value on that to compare to what they are bringing in? It isn't as if they are getting nothing.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #71 on: April 12, 2017, 10:18:03 am »

I don't think the Universities should pay athletes outside of the cost of living or their tuition.

But the NCAA should allow athletes to make money of their likeness. If they are able to do it which would probably be limited to star athletes

But likeness is too broad and can get manipulated easily. T Boone Pickens can then just got to a high school recruit and say "Hey, sign with us and I'll give you a $100k for your autograph each year you play." Likeness = salaries, which then just allows Bama to Bama even more without even the slightest worry of repercussions.

I think an idea is a revenue sharing that goes to players, but is only collected once they graduate. If they leave early they forfeit any revenues earned. That would help the Olu's of the world have better motivation to stick it out. If the players would get 200k after playing for four years, they wouldn't think the D-league was such an enticing option, ie Qualls.

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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2017, 10:21:55 am »

But if the quality of athletes falls off across the board it will still be the only product we have so people will not stop watching. People say the NBA is as bad as it has ever been because of no defense, too many threes, and "super teams." Guess what, basketball fans still watch it in high numbers because what are their other options?

Older white fans think that about the NBA. The younger crowd love it. Countries across the world love it. You take the quality of athlete out of college football or basketball and I guarantee you the TV money goes way down. I'm saying people will stop watching, but there won't be as much interest. Plenty of people watch college sports for the talent without fan affiliation.

These kids never seem to care that they are being taken advantage of while they are getting a stipend to buy tattoos, rims, or the new iphone that the average kid with student loans working through college may not be able to afford. They don't seem to care when they have a note taker in class so they do not have to show up or can sleep. They never complain when they are playing in Hawaii for a basketball tournament, on a trip to Spain in the summer for basketball, or playing in Orlando going to Disney world and getting an Xbox for their bowl game. However, once they leave a select few pitch a fit about it. I agree they could have their stipend increased, or maybe receive money for their likeness that goes into a trust that they can receive upon graduation, but I don't think outright paying players is the answer. Like you said, many of these kids can only play sports to get out of their situations they are in when they accept a scholarship. While they may be taken advantage of, athletics provides these kids a head start in life that they would have zero shot at without, so how do you truly put a monetary value on that to compare to what they are bringing in? It isn't as if they are getting nothing.

I don't care what they are spending whatever money they do get on. That's their choice. They're kids. All I'm concerned with is them getting something closer to fair value in return for what they provide. And I've clearly stated, from the start, that they are getting a good deal. But it's still not a fair deal. There is big, big money coming in with these TV contracts. The schools know it. The NCAA knows it. But, yet, all they've done so far is (mostly) make adjustments to cover the full cost of attendance. Not nearly enough. Let them make money their likeness or put money in a trust for post-college, as you suggested. I'm fine with that. I'm not out there saying these kids need to be getting paid 100k every year. But the NCAA and schools need to be doing more for the revenue-generating athletes than they currently are. The revenue-generating part is where things get tricky because that means not every athlete would get paid because some schools lose money on athletics. That's were allowing players to make money off their likeness sounds like the best solution. I would imagine you get around Title IX that way because it would apply to all athletes but does not guarantee all athletes money. If the NCAA and the schools want to keep that money and not pay players, then they should allow them to be paid elsewhere considering how much their images and talents are generating revenue for other entities. Let them capitalize on that. This is America, right?
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2017, 10:22:25 am »

But likeness is too broad and can get manipulated easily. T Boone Pickens can then just got to a high school recruit and say "Hey, sign with us and I'll give you a $100k for your autograph each year you play." Likeness = salaries, which then just allows Bama to Bama even more without even the slightest worry of repercussions.

I think an idea is a revenue sharing that goes to players, but is only collected once they graduate. If they leave early they forfeit any revenues earned. That would help the Olu's of the world have better motivation to stick it out. If the players would get 200k after playing for four years, they wouldn't think the D-league was such an enticing option, ie Qualls.


Agreed on the upon graduation. They are secure regardless of what they do. If they are good enough to leave early then they aren't necessarily worried about the money they leave. If they are on the fence, it could entice some players to return who may not have as good of a shot of playing sports professionally.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2017, 10:25:15 am »

But likeness is too broad and can get manipulated easily. T Boone Pickens can then just got to a high school recruit and say "Hey, sign with us and I'll give you a $100k for your autograph each year you play." Likeness = salaries, which then just allows Bama to Bama even more without even the slightest worry of repercussions.

I think an idea is a revenue sharing that goes to players, but is only collected once they graduate. If they leave early they forfeit any revenues earned. That would help the Olu's of the world have better motivation to stick it out. If the players would get 200k after playing for four years, they wouldn't think the D-league was such an enticing option, ie Qualls.

I think there should be some benchmark for collecting money post-graduating but you can't deny someone that money just because they left early. That's not fair because the players that left early are the ones who are driving the TV contracts. Honestly, I think you should have to let any player who met all eligibility and academic requirements and stayed out of trouble have their money.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #75 on: April 12, 2017, 10:28:15 am »

Agreed on the upon graduation. They are secure regardless of what they do. If they are good enough to leave early then they aren't necessarily worried about the money they leave. If they are on the fence, it could entice some players to return who may not have as good of a shot of playing sports professionally.

So a kid leaves school a year early (doesn't make the NBA) because he has a sick parent or family member, was in good academic standing, never got in trouble, never compromised his eligibility and he gets nothing because he didn't graduate? He did everything that was asked of him while at that university and left essentially because he felt he needed to help his family. Nothing? He might not be able to go back and get that degree for 5 or more years.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2017, 10:37:15 am »

Older white fans think that about the NBA. The younger crowd love it. Countries across the world love it. You take the quality of athlete out of college football or basketball and I guarantee you the TV money goes way down. I'm saying people will stop watching, but there won't be as much interest. Plenty of people watch college sports for the talent without fan affiliation.

I don't care what they are spending whatever money they do get on. That's their choice. They're kids. All I'm concerned with is them getting something closer to fair value in return for what they provide. And I've clearly stated, from the start, that they are getting a good deal. But it's still not a fair deal. There is big, big money coming in with these TV contracts. The schools know it. The NCAA knows it. But, yet, all they've done so far is (mostly) make adjustments to cover the full cost of attendance. Not nearly enough. Let them make money their likeness or put money in a trust for post-college, as you suggested. I'm fine with that. I'm not out there saying these kids need to be getting paid 100k every year. But the NCAA and schools need to be doing more for the revenue-generating athletes than they currently are. The revenue-generating part is where things get tricky because that means not every athlete would get paid because some schools lose money on athletics. That's were allowing players to make money off their likeness sounds like the best solution. I would imagine you get around Title IX that way because it would apply to all athletes but does not guarantee all athletes money. If the NCAA and the schools want to keep that money and not pay players, then they should allow them to be paid elsewhere considering how much their images and talents are generating revenue for other entities. Let them capitalize on that. This is America, right?
But then you run into the issue that Adam Stokes brings up. Most of the recruiting pitch will be about how they can help the player maximize their profit off their likeness.The only solution I think even has a chance is profiting off the likeness, but that is still a slippery slope. The schools or NCAA paying the players directly based on their "worth" isn't really an option at this point. There is no way of really quantifying how much an individual player is actually worth, and like you said some sports generate more revenue than others while most lose money.

I know the NCAA profits off of them, but they are given an opportunity to profit much more in the future because of it. I get that they aren't given a fair shake. I have never said they aren't. However I have trouble having sympathy for them since I also see how much money I make for my company, and others make for theirs in the corporate world despite seeing low % of it in return. I worked for the U of A athletics and I lived with 2 football players in college, so I have seen what all they get that isn't even documented, and I see how hard the people in the athletic department work to help bring in some of this revenue that people seem to think is solely because of the players. If you told me I could be an athlete and go through everything they go through to have a shot at millions or at the very least be debt free at the end of 4 years I would take it EVERY TIME and not think twice about it. For every athlete who cries about it, there are just as many more who are grateful. I am not a big fan of Doug Gottlieb, but I enjoy hearing his take on it because he has lived it. He basically says without the NCAA there is not Gottlieb. Just because they aren't leaving college with thousands doesn't mean they aren't going to profit off their time in college.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #77 on: April 12, 2017, 10:38:31 am »

So a kid leaves school a year early (doesn't make the NBA) because he has a sick parent or family member, was in good academic standing, never got in trouble, never compromised his eligibility and he gets nothing because he didn't graduate? He did everything that was asked of him while at that university and left essentially because he felt he needed to help his family. Nothing? He might not be able to go back and get that degree for 5 or more years.
I think you are smart enough to understand exceptions would likely be in place, and we are not creating the rules on the spot here. It is an idea that is thrown out. I am sure each university will have the discretion to decide when it is warranted. You could say as long as they were on track to graduate upon leaving. They don't hurt the APR, etc. I don't think a kid who goes to school and takes underwater basket weaving and ping pong for all their hours, has terrible attendance, and leaves pro and gets drafted to make millions should get that money. They could have a stipulation that you are owed the money if you don't get drafted. Like a coach's contract who is terminated. They get X amount of money until they find a job. The player gets X amount of money unless they are drafted. A player likely doesn't profit off his likeness much without the school he is attending, so that school helps him make the money for signing autographs and doing appearances just as much. There are a 100 ways they could write it up that would be reasonable, but it clearly isn't as cut and dry as you get everything you earn here. Kids will start skipping practice and school to do television appearances. You get to that point and you might as well just pay the players and break off from the NCAA and call them professionals. Let's see how many viewers we have if they are no longer considered student athletes and aren't tied to a particular university.
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Letsroll1200

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #78 on: April 12, 2017, 10:43:23 am »

People need to know that Daryl has the information he needs to make a decision. Josh Hagins of UALR and Daryl Macon are good friends. Josh started his season in Europe but is currently playing in the D league with Maine. Josh and Daryl games are very similar and if Daryl is ready to bounce around different leagues, so be it.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2017, 11:07:44 am »

But then you run into the issue that Adam Stokes brings up. Most of the recruiting pitch will be about how they can help the player maximize their profit off their likeness.The only solution I think even has a chance is profiting off the likeness, but that is still a slippery slope. The schools or NCAA paying the players directly based on their "worth" isn't really an option at this point. There is no way of really quantifying how much an individual player is actually worth, and like you said some sports generate more revenue than others while most lose money.

I know the NCAA profits off of them, but they are given an opportunity to profit much more in the future because of it. I get that they aren't given a fair shake. I have never said they aren't. However I have trouble having sympathy for them since I also see how much money I make for my company, and others make for theirs in the corporate world despite seeing low % of it in return. I worked for the U of A athletics and I lived with 2 football players in college, so I have seen what all they get that isn't even documented, and I see how hard the people in the athletic department work to help bring in some of this revenue that people seem to think is solely because of the players. If you told me I could be an athlete and go through everything they go through to have a shot at millions or at the very least be debt free at the end of 4 years I would take it EVERY TIME and not think twice about it. For every athlete who cries about it, there are just as many more who are grateful. I am not a big fan of Doug Gottlieb, but I enjoy hearing his take on it because he has lived it. He basically says without the NCAA there is not Gottlieb. Just because they aren't leaving college with thousands doesn't mean they aren't going to profit off their time in college.

Doug Gottlieb didn't play in an era were schools with getting tens of millions per year in TV contracts. Doug Gottlieb was also better equipped to capitalize on his time in college (and I know he did get into trouble at Notre Dame) because of his upbringing. Most high-major college athletes weren't raised like Doug Gottlieb and that's a big, big factor here. That's where the exploitation comes in. You're looking at this out of your lens, and I'd bet your upbringing was much more fortunate than the average SEC athlete's was. You understand the level of an education. Those values were likely instilled in you based on what you've said in this thread. It's amazing to me that some of these kids make it as far as they do considering how they're raised. You can't just say, "Hey, here's a free education. I know you have a 5th grade reading level and probably don't understand most of what they are teaching you in these real college classes, but we're giving you the opportunity. Better make the most of it." None is trying to make these kids millionaires while they're in college, but there's room for the NCAA and schools to give more back to them than they currently are, so I think they definitely should. I think it's the right thing to do considering we are talking about young men who aren't really adults. It's not the same as an adult accepting a paying job. If the schools are going to continue to recruit and sign players they are know aren't going to be able to benefit from an education, then they should definitely provide them with something monetary. Otherwise, they're just straight up using these kids and it's disgusting, honestly.
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hogsanity

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2017, 11:52:37 am »

People need to know that Daryl has the information he needs to make a decision. Josh Hagins of UALR and Daryl Macon are good friends. Josh started his season in Europe but is currently playing in the D league with Maine. Josh and Daryl games are very similar and if Daryl is ready to bounce around different leagues, so be it.

I have no idea what his persona life is like, but bouncing around different leagues, getting paid, and maybe even getting to live abroad for a while is not such a bad thing, especially if you are single and in your early 20's.
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Letsroll1200

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2017, 12:02:35 pm »

I have no idea what his persona life is like, but bouncing around different leagues, getting paid, and maybe even getting to live abroad for a while is not such a bad thing, especially if you are single and in your early 20's.

It's a grind and a job. You have to be mentally strong to compete overseas away from your family. It's not all fun and games. If he's ready to go to work I wish him well.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2017, 12:03:54 pm »

Doug Gottlieb didn't play in an era were schools with getting tens of millions per year in TV contracts. Doug Gottlieb was also better equipped to capitalize on his time in college (and I know he did get into trouble at Notre Dame) because of his upbringing. Most high-major college athletes weren't raised like Doug Gottlieb and that's a big, big factor here. That's where the exploitation comes in. You're looking at this out of your lens, and I'd bet your upbringing was much more fortunate than the average SEC athlete's was. You understand the level of an education. Those values were likely instilled in you based on what you've said in this thread. It's amazing to me that some of these kids make it as far as they do considering how they're raised. You can't just say, "Hey, here's a free education. I know you have a 5th grade reading level and probably don't understand most of what they are teaching you in these real college classes, but we're giving you the opportunity. Better make the most of it." None is trying to make these kids millionaires while they're in college, but there's room for the NCAA and schools to give more back to them than they currently are, so I think they definitely should. I think it's the right thing to do considering we are talking about young men who aren't really adults. It's not the same as an adult accepting a paying job. If the schools are going to continue to recruit and sign players they are know aren't going to be able to benefit from an education, then they should definitely provide them with something monetary. Otherwise, they're just straight up using these kids and it's disgusting, honestly.
I get what you are saying, but you act like these kids are dumb as rocks and turned loose on campus without guidance. If a kid is reading and writing at a 5th grade reading level when he gets on campus, then he probably didn't actually qualify in the first place and that is the topic for a different discussion. Like I said, I lived with 2 football players, and 1 was a poor, black kid who grew up in central Arkansas so it isn't like I am oblivious to the world of college athletics. He didn't even have a cell phone or a car when he arrived. He barely qualified and didn't care about school, but the coaching staff being paid millions and the faculty and support staff do as much as they can to help these kids succeed assuming the kids want to. It doesn't take much to stay qualified, and by year 2 or 3 if the staff has done their job and are getting through to the kid he will take his studies more serious, especially if he isn't killing it on the field. Some only want to make it in sports or go back home and live the life they were living before. Some of these kids may not be the smartest, but they are capable if they made it to an SEC school in the first place. The resources available to these kids are astonishing, and makes you wonder how any fail. They have multiple advisers that they have to meet with, and an academic success center that has tutors, private computer labs, etc. They have paid note takers that sit by them in class and write down everything the professor says then goes over it with you after to make sure you understand. The list goes on of ways they make getting a degree for an athlete easier, while helping them learn themselves. I don't mind your opinion on why or how they should be compensated, but this notion that the players coming in are at a disadvantage and just given a student ID and said thanks for being here is ridiculous.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2017, 12:20:05 pm »

I get what you are saying, but you act like these kids are dumb as rocks and turned loose on campus without guidance. If a kid is reading and writing at a 5th grade reading level when he gets on campus, then he probably didn't actually qualify in the first place and that is the topic for a different discussion. Like I said, I lived with 2 football players, and 1 was a poor, black kid who grew up in central Arkansas so it isn't like I am oblivious to the world of college athletics. He didn't even have a cell phone or a car when he arrived. He barely qualified and didn't care about school, but the coaching staff being paid millions and the faculty and support staff do as much as they can to help these kids succeed assuming the kids want to. It doesn't take much to stay qualified, and by year 2 or 3 if the staff has done their job and are getting through to the kid he will take his studies more serious, especially if he isn't killing it on the field. Some only want to make it in sports or go back home and live the life they were living before. Some of these kids may not be the smartest, but they are capable if they made it to an SEC school in the first place. The resources available to these kids are astonishing, and makes you wonder how any fail. They have multiple advisers that they have to meet with, and an academic success center that has tutors, private computer labs, etc. They have paid note takers that sit by them in class and write down everything the professor says then goes over it with you after to make sure you understand. The list goes on of ways they make getting a degree for an athlete easier, while helping them learn themselves. I don't mind your opinion on why or how they should be compensated, but this notion that the players coming in are at a disadvantage and just given a student ID and said thanks for being here is ridiculous.

I understand that they are given resources to become good students. I don't know if you are accusing me of thinking they are given no help, but I never said that. But I don't know what to tell you if you think there aren't kids that are having someone take the ACT for them or do their school work. I don't know what to tell you if they you think there aren't major college athletes with elementary or junior high reading levels. When kids are that developmentally immature, combined with being literally immature or lacking the everyday support and values that someone like you or I may have been raised with, it really doesn't matter how much help you give them because they shouldn't be there in the first place. You think all of the kids on the football or basketball get accept to the U of A or Stanford or Cal or wherever on their own? You know many of them won't. So why hold them to the same standard that you'd hold someone who could? They don't have the mental or emotional capacity to really strive in that environment. They're just taking the help they get and doing what they can to stay eligible. All of Kentucky's basketball players take online classes. Do you really think they're doing that course work, however easy the classes may be? UK accepted them as students, though, likely knowing they aren't real students. If these athletes were really held to the same admissions standards as normal students, then I could treat them more as students. But I know some of these schools are damn tough to get into and there's no way some of these guys get in without being athletes, so what are they going to do with an education that is beyond their abilities?
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2017, 12:36:15 pm »

I understand that they are given resources to become good students. I don't know if you are accusing me of thinking they are given no help, but I never said that. But I don't know what to tell you if you think there aren't kids that are having someone take the ACT for them or do their school work. I don't know what to tell you if they you think there aren't major college athletes with elementary or junior high reading levels. When kids are that developmentally immature, combined with being literally immature or lacking the everyday support and values that someone like you or I may have been raised with, it really doesn't matter how much help you give them because they shouldn't be there in the first place. You think all of the kids on the football or basketball get accept to the U of A or Stanford or Cal or wherever on their own? You know many of them won't. So why hold them to the same standard that you'd hold someone who could? They don't have the mental or emotional capacity to really strive in that environment. They're just taking the help they get and doing what they can to stay eligible. All of Kentucky's basketball players take online classes. Do you really think they're doing that course work, however easy the classes may be? UK accepted them as students, though, likely knowing they aren't real students. If these athletes were really held to the same admissions standards as normal students, then I could treat them more as students. But I know some of these schools are damn tough to get into and there's no way some of these guys get in without being athletes, so what are they going to do with an education that is beyond their abilities?
But that kind of proves my point even more, in my opinion. These kids are given opportunities that they would have no chance having without the NCAA and athletics. It absolutely sucks that these kids have learning disabilities, or the inability to grasp concepts. Most people like that are homeless, jobless, etc. These kids, because they can run fast, jump high, or throw a baseball hard are getting rules bent and unlimited resources to better their lives with or without sports, and in return for this opportunity make money for their university and create a lifetime of memories in their 4 years. These kids can cry about being paid more fairly, or they can just not get a scholarship and work a 9-5 job that pays $8.50/hr back home because they couldn't qualify without athletics.

We both bring up good points, we both have an argument, but at this point it makes more sense to agree to disagree because the discussion is just going in circles on both sides now. I definitely think they could get compensated more by receiving a greater stipend or profit off their likeness, but there is a lot that needs to go into that if they go that route because part of what makes NCAA athletics great is the "amateurism" and passion for the school rather than the salary.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2017, 01:34:02 pm »

One thing that is not taken into consideration that should be are the long term effects of playing sports at a high level. Athletes tend to have issues with arthritis earlier than non athletes.

Football players especially play with nagging and sometimes chronic injuries.

I never hear the people who believe this kids aren't being exploited address this.
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hogsanity

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2017, 01:57:42 pm »

One thing that is not taken into consideration that should be are the long term effects of playing sports at a high level. Athletes tend to have issues with arthritis earlier than non athletes.

Football players especially play with nagging and sometimes chronic injuries.

I never hear the people who believe this kids aren't being exploited address this.

Everyone is using everyone in this instance. Players use the schools to get exposure to hopefully get drafted. They also get access to a good education, whether they take advantage of that opportunity or not is up to them. The schools get players to have good teams to make money. Te pros get free training grounds for many of the players they draft or sign as undrafted FA's. The coaches use them to get better contracts and more money. The fans use the players to beat their chest about "their" team being better than someone else's team.
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wheelspigharvey

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2017, 03:01:34 pm »

I understand that they are given resources to become good students. I don't know if you are accusing me of thinking they are given no help, but I never said that. But I don't know what to tell you if you think there aren't kids that are having someone take the ACT for them or do their school work. I don't know what to tell you if they you think there aren't major college athletes with elementary or junior high reading levels. When kids are that developmentally immature, combined with being literally immature or lacking the everyday support and values that someone like you or I may have been raised with, it really doesn't matter how much help you give them because they shouldn't be there in the first place. You think all of the kids on the football or basketball get accept to the U of A or Stanford or Cal or wherever on their own? You know many of them won't. So why hold them to the same standard that you'd hold someone who could? They don't have the mental or emotional capacity to really strive in that environment. They're just taking the help they get and doing what they can to stay eligible. All of Kentucky's basketball players take online classes. Do you really think they're doing that course work, however easy the classes may be? UK accepted them as students, though, likely knowing they aren't real students. If these athletes were really held to the same admissions standards as normal students, then I could treat them more as students. But I know some of these schools are damn tough to get into and there's no way some of these guys get in without being athletes, so what are they going to do with an education that is beyond their abilities?

Very much agree. In addition (and I think this is what you're saying) the idea that it's fair that players get "paid" by getting costs paid for is only acceptable to you if you think that college should be expensive as ____ for everyone anyway.
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logic

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2017, 03:14:43 pm »

Do you think the cost of their scholarships are equal to the value they are bringing to the university? I'm not saying them getting scholarships have no value, but let's be honest and accept the fact that many of these kids aren't likely to do anything with that degree because of their upbringing. They are looking to play basketball. Major universities are making tens of millions each year off football and men's basketball players. There can't be any debate about this. Want to restrict stuff like this? Pay them and make them student-athlete-employees. Until then, the least they can do is let them explore their potential professional options.

This is coming from someone who took out student loans all throughout college and is living with that debt currently. Players like Barford and Macon enable other, non-athlete students to enjoy the University of Arkansas more and make it a more attractive school. They university is getting them for dirt cheap. You can't justify giving young men who were not raised to be academically-minded full scholarships and that's it. Even when you factor in the exposure they get from playing in the SEC, the university still gets the better end of the day by far. These kids are putting in more than they are getting out. Cost of scholarship + we'll give a generous 100k salary (which the vast majority of students will never see) post-college =/= what the schools/NCAA are making off them. There is a lot of value in being a scholarship athlete for an SEC school in men's basketball, but they aren't getting equal value or anywhere near it. They have to rely on professional basketball for that, so they should be given plenty of time to figure that out.
Not only that but even if they get a  degree, because of time and other requirements, college athletes are guided toward easy to obtain degrees that have little or no economic value. An October 2014 CareerBuilder survey showed that 51 Percent of Employed 2014 College Grads Are in Jobs That Donít Require a Degreel And, sixty-five percent of recent college grads are employed, 4 percent are in internships, and 31 percent are not working at all.

The national survey was conducted online within the U.S. by Harris Poll on behalf of CareerBuilder from August 11 to September 5, 2014, and included a representative sample of 305 college graduates completing either an associate or 4-year degree in 2014.
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hogfan14

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2017, 04:42:18 pm »

There is really no easy way to straight up pay college athletes. If you pay the star QB you have to pay the 3rd string swimming and diving player. Unless you put in incentives for reaching certain goals like being named an all-american or winning an award I guess.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2017, 05:51:12 pm »

There is really no easy way to straight up pay college athletes. If you pay the star QB you have to pay the 3rd string swimming and diving player. Unless you put in incentives for reaching certain goals like being named an all-american or winning an award I guess.

Why would you have to pay the 3rd string swimming and diving players when they likely don't get full scholarships anyway? Not all college baseball players get full rides, so other sports are already playing by different rules.

I love how we can't pay revenue-generating athletes because it isn't fair to the non-revenue-generaring athletes. What kind of sh-- is that? It seems to me like it is way more unfair to not pay the athletes allowing for billion dollar TV contracts because players for sports that people clearly couldn't two craps about would have to get paid. Fighting unfairness with....even greater unfairness. The logic is beyond broken. It's simple -- pay those that are providing the greatest monteray value to your program/institution. Time to let go of "amatuerism." Money changes things, folks. But this is America and captialism is king. It's very un-American what is going on in college football/basketball.
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Adam Stokes

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2017, 06:18:54 pm »

Why would you have to pay the 3rd string swimming and diving players when they likely don't get full scholarships anyway? Not all college baseball players get full rides, so other sports are already playing by different rules.

I love how we can't pay revenue-generating athletes because it isn't fair to the non-revenue-generaring athletes. What kind of sh-- is that? It seems to me like it is way more unfair to not pay the athletes allowing for billion dollar TV contracts because players for sports that people clearly couldn't two craps about would have to get paid. Fighting unfairness with....even greater unfairness. The logic is beyond broken. It's simple -- pay those that are providing the greatest monteray value to your program/institution. Time to let go of "amatuerism." Money changes things, folks. But this is America and captialism is king. It's very un-American what is going on in college football/basketball.

Also have to think of Title IX repercussions. No way women would be worth in revenue what the big boy sports bring in, but offering it to one and not the other could be seen as discriminatory in the same way they had to balance out scholarships in the first place.
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Porked Tongue

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2017, 06:26:57 pm »

The paid stipend is different amounts per sport.

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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2017, 07:30:55 pm »

Also have to think of Title IX repercussions. No way women would be worth in revenue what the big boy sports bring in, but offering it to one and not the other could be seen as discriminatory in the same way they had to balance out scholarships in the first place.

You know what? If the only thing standing in the way of all this was paying girl's basketball players too, then just pay 'em. Good on them for getting a super sweet deal. That'd be more fair than the current set-up, IMO.
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ShadowHawg

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2017, 07:35:53 pm »

You know what? If the only thing standing in the way of all this was paying girl's basketball players too, then just pay 'em. Good on them for getting a super sweet deal. That'd be more fair than the current set-up, IMO.

This.

Title IX is b.s. it should be based on money generated which would also leave out baseball and track.
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jry04

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #96 on: April 13, 2017, 07:50:41 am »

Why would you have to pay the 3rd string swimming and diving players when they likely don't get full scholarships anyway? Not all college baseball players get full rides, so other sports are already playing by different rules.

I love how we can't pay revenue-generating athletes because it isn't fair to the non-revenue-generaring athletes. What kind of sh-- is that? It seems to me like it is way more unfair to not pay the athletes allowing for billion dollar TV contracts because players for sports that people clearly couldn't two craps about would have to get paid. Fighting unfairness with....even greater unfairness. The logic is beyond broken. It's simple -- pay those that are providing the greatest monteray value to your program/institution. Time to let go of "amatuerism." Money changes things, folks. But this is America and captialism is king. It's very un-American what is going on in college football/basketball.
I am not sure ANY baseball players in the country get a full ride without any tuition assistance programs. They get a %, and that is because of Title IX. They had to cut some men's scholarships to make it fair for women, and baseball was the victim in the NCAA. All women's sports give full scholarships.




This isn't addressed at you Hawg Red, but I have still yet to see a reasonable solution on how we can pay players based on their worth. So the football players bring in more revenue, they get paid more. Now what players get paid more on the football team? Is Austin Allen going to get paid the same amount as our 3rd string DT who is only in for 15 snaps? Is RW3 going to get paid the same as TJ Hammonds? How do you quantify how much revenue a specific player brings in. If you just divide it evenly it will probably suffice temporarily, and then years from now the new complaint will be that "I am the Heisman candidate so I need to get more money than everyone else" and it will open up another can of worms.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 08:07:21 am by jry04 »
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Porked Tongue

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #97 on: April 13, 2017, 08:16:41 am »

All scholarship players on a team get the same amount as similar scholarships students on their team.

Again it varies between sports as to that stipend.

It's not paid up.  It's split up and they must hit certain guidelines to earn it.  It's used as "incentives" by most coaching staffs.
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lynbug

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #98 on: April 13, 2017, 08:47:51 am »

Well, my opinion is that....for revenue sharing conferences there is mega bucks coming in and the revenue generators (players) are sometimes so strapped for cash that they do crazy things in the off-season to obtain money for things....just kinda seems ironic.  Of course there is the difference between the richer and poorer....and revenue vs.non-revenue sharing conferences that would affect the whole recruiting landscape.  But, as far as one poster mentioned...the players that excel have a CHANCE of making millioins, but it took the whole team to assist/promote those players so....something to thing about.
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Hawg Red

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Re: Read but don't jump off the ledge
« Reply #99 on: April 13, 2017, 09:40:50 am »

I am not sure ANY baseball players in the country get a full ride without any tuition assistance programs. They get a %, and that is because of Title IX. They had to cut some men's scholarships to make it fair for women, and baseball was the victim in the NCAA. All women's sports give full scholarships.




This isn't addressed at you Hawg Red, but I have still yet to see a reasonable solution on how we can pay players based on their worth. So the football players bring in more revenue, they get paid more. Now what players get paid more on the football team? Is Austin Allen going to get paid the same amount as our 3rd string DT who is only in for 15 snaps? Is RW3 going to get paid the same as TJ Hammonds? How do you quantify how much revenue a specific player brings in. If you just divide it evenly it will probably suffice temporarily, and then years from now the new complaint will be that "I am the Heisman candidate so I need to get more money than everyone else" and it will open up another can of worms.

Don't know if you looked at the article I posted, but it had some reasonable suggestions. Nothing's going to be perfect. But the answer is not pay them nothing, so they need to come up with something. There just is no way for this thing to be fair for every single person involved. Just have to do the best you can with it. I'm less concerned with individual players getting their worth than I am scholarship student-athletes on revenue-generating programs getting something. I'd rather everyone on scholarship get the same amount than everyone get nothing. It's an extremely complicated thing, but you know what they say -- mo money, mo problems.
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